How to Survive... Large Law Firms

Rob Yates, Managing Consultant, BRG, speaks with Emily Palmer, Partner, McDermott Will & Schulte, Hassan Shaikh, Associate, Mintz Levin Cohn Ferris Glovsky and Popeo PC, and Tyler Dysart, Associate, King & Spalding LLP, about how to survive and thrive at large law firms. They discuss what drew them to health law and the large law firm setting, the pros and cons of life at a large law firm, what a typical day is like and workload volume, and the skillsets that are crucial to success. They also delve into how junior attorneys can navigate the complex hierarchical teams that are prevalent at large law firms, the challenges that new attorneys face in this setting and how they can approach delegating, how to develop subject matter expertise and grow a network, how billable hour expectations impact development and well‑being, and what they wish they had known during their first year. From AHLA’s Early Career Professionals Council.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

This episode of AHLA Speaking of Health Law is brought to you by AHLA members and donors like you. For more information, visit AmericanHealthlaw.org.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Hello, and welcome to another edition of AHLA's Speaking of Health Law Podcast. AHLA's Early Career Professionals Council is excited to present a new How to Survive series focused on providing practical advice for surviving and thriving in various practice environments for those who may be entering or considering entering those areas. My name is Rob Yates, a vice chair of programming for the Early Career Professionals Council, and I will be moderating this series. Each episode will feature a panel of guests who can shed light on a specific practice environment, including at law firms, in-house, at corporate and nonprofit organizations, and in government service. In today's episode, we will focus on large law firms. I'm excited to welcome three guests who are well qualified to speak on the subject. Today we're joined by Emily Palmer, a partner at McDermott Will and Schulte, Hassan Sheikh, an associate at Mintz, and Tyler Dyser, an associate at King Spaulding. To kick us off, I'll ask each of you to briefly describe your practice and tell us what drew you to Health Law and to this particular practice setting. Emily, can you go ahead and get us started?

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Sure thing. Thanks for having me, Rob. As Rob mentioned, my name is Emily Palmer. I'm a partner at McDermott Will and Schulte in their healthcare practice group. I specialize in healthcare-specific transactions. So historically, as a bit more of hospital and health system transactions. And now I focus quite a bit on private equity transactions, both in the physician practice management space as well as in some more healthcare ancillary services. So things like pharmaceuticals or equipment related to healthcare services. And I originally got into healthcare transactions due to the fact that prior to going to law school, I was, I had a role for a healthcare education company that made online educational videos for patients. And in that role, I was really a client services individual. And so I worked with our clients to help them incorporate the educational content into their work streams, which got me in the room with a lot of uh healthcare executives that worked for hospitals and were very focused on both the patient experience as well as the business side of things. Um it really got me interested in the business of healthcare. And so when I went to law school, I knew that I wanted to focus in that area. And then McDermott was a great fit.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

Great. Uh Hassan, can you go next, please? Sure. So uh I started college thinking I wanted to be a doctor, as I think many people might take that uh same initiative and very quickly realized I didn't want to be a doctor. Um, but what I did do while I was in undergrad, and then I went and got my master's in public health was really start learning about community health education. Um, and so I kind of had a healthcare interest and a background in it when I was going to law school. But after law school, I actually did not pursue any sort of healthcare specific um role. I went to a big law firm and was a private equity and MA associate there for about a year and a half before moving from New York to LA. Uh when I moved to LA because I'm I'm in the LA office of Mint, um, I left the big law firm and moved to a boutique, private equity and MA firm to kind of get that experience of starting up a smaller firm and seeing what that role would be like and kind of getting a better sense of how law firms are built and how they operate. Um, and I was there for two years. Uh and then after that, I realized I really didn't want to be just in the private equity MA space. I liked knowing that I was an expert in something as well. So even if it was just a small component, whether it was healthcare or tax or whatever unique uh role I could bring, rather than just being a deal lawyer, I also wanted to be the expert on something. And so I started looking for a healthcare-specific role in private equity MA and ended up at Mint. Now I do a lot of healthcare transactions, but I also work primarily in the pharmacy supply chain with respect to PBMs, plans, and pharmacies. And so my entire practice now really focuses on that component of healthcare. And we also work on a lot of their transactions and uh reorganizations, divestments, all of those types of things.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Thanks, Atan. Uh we're we're both members of the uh pre-med to health law pipeline there. There's many of us out there, I think. I I've come to learn that. Uh Tyler, can you go ahead and share?

SPEAKER_04 4:56

Absolutely. And thanks, Rob. Uh so unfortunately I I'm not the pre-law to uh pre pre-med to um law background. Uh I went straight um to uh law school and then um went to a uh small boutique firm out of law school doing uh mostly commercial litigation. So I you know started in a firm that was you know less than uh less than 40 attorneys. Um and you know, I really love litigating. I love getting very involved in the weeds on you know a certain specific issue or uh in a certain industry, um, and knew I kind of wanted to specialize rather than kind of you know, you get really invested in something, a certain industry, and then all of a sudden, okay, well that case, that case settled, or that case, you know, uh got resolved, and it's kind of on to the next thing, and you know, it's a blink slit on something else. Uh so you know, I definitely knew I wanted to find something to you know allow that prior experience to build on over time. Uh and you know, I I'd done some healthcare litigation at my prior firm. Uh and so when I was sort of looking around, you know, the opportunity presented itself at um in Keene Spaulding's healthcare group, and it it fit the bill kind of exactly what I was looking for. And so now I do uh managed care litigation. So you know it's kind of taking that same skill set that I had um you know started to build at uh my prior firm, and now it's applying it to you know a more specialized field where you know you get this kind of awesome blend of you know the complex regulatory environment that uh um uh our our clients are in. Uh coupled with sort of the litigation that we you know you would otherwise think about when you're um you know thinking about uh disputes and resolving them. So uh and maybe a bit more background too. So managed care litigation is sort of the uh practice of resolving disputes between uh healthcare providers like hospitals and doctors with um payers, so typically you know, uh insurance companies or the government. Uh and my practice is mostly uh representing uh healthcare providers and in those kinds of disputes.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Got it. Got it. So I think at the top here, I think it would be helpful to level set and kind of just talk about the pros and cons of practicing a large law firm. So I know you you guys mentioned some some various um background experiences. Um I wonder if we can go back to Emily and start with um some of the other practice settings and industries you might have worked in. I know you said that you started in healthcare and started at McDermott, uh, but maybe we can talk you can talk about the pros and cons of um your life in a large law firm.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Sure. Um so I think one of the probably things that we'll thread through everyone's responses is that it's a lot of work. Um and I did come from a consulting background. So when you are in a role where you're traveling really consistently, um, and this was pre-COVID, so much more of the traditional, you know, wake up on Monday, come home on Thursday, there's a lot of demand associated with that, but it looks a little bit different because you're not, I think, doing a lot of deep thinking or, you know, exclusively deep thinking work, which I think is what's so challenging about being in a high demand field as an attorney is that a lot of what we do each day is that deep thinking work that can be in and of itself pretty exhausting. Um, I have really found that being in a large law firm is, and I don't have a small law firm experience to compare to it, but being in the partner role and also transitioning my responsibilities to more of a business development um perspective, I have really valued the fact that at a large law firm, I have seen the benefits of being able to reach out to other individuals at the firm who have these tiny little expertise on things that I've never even heard up until they become an issue for one of our clients. I'm working on a matter related to that right now, where I have people who, as it turns out, have the exact expertise that we need, both in like the IP space and also in our FDA practice, that may or may not be, you know, directly related to healthcare, but has been a great resource to be collaborative with and something that's really beneficial in my experience as I've transitioned from being an associate to being a partner. Um, I think that one of the other benefits is that we're often seeing some of the more complex questions that come through our door, especially at McDermott, um, we are seeing a lot of times matters of first impression. And so to be able to leverage the resources at a large law firm to answer those questions for our client in a really uh efficient and productive manner is a big benefit. But I I will say probably the cons are um when you work across many offices, sometimes you'll go years without meeting the people in person that you um talk to on the phone on a daily basis. Zoom makes that better. Um but that's a bit of an interesting dynamic, I think, um, that a lot of us are are definitely wanting some more of that like face-to-face connection. Um and I think those have been the biggest items for me in my experience that have been kind of pros and cons.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

Yeah, thank you, Emily. I'm sure, I'm sure that will be a common theme here. Um Hassan, can you can you go ahead and it is, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

I I agree with with everything Emily said, and I think um the one thing I'd add is is being at a boutique for a couple of years, the the most obvious realization I had, I think, leaving a big law firm, going to a boutique and then coming back was really that we don't appreciate all the resources at our hands when we're at a big law firm. So um when I was at the boutique firm, you know, a word issue or a formatting issue or whatever was something I had to figure out and go through the process of figuring out why is the page breaking here and how do I fix it. And I'm in Google and trying to trying to get it resolved. Um, and so the document support teams I have grown to uh just appreciate so much more, I think, after an experience where you leave and you realize those resources aren't always available. Um, I think it also gives you the opportunity when you can farm out some of the more uh technical pieces that aren't in your expertise, like how to make a Word document look proper, like look correct, or um, you know, all of those small tech issues that come up with us all the time, like my microphone not working. Um, I'm not an expert in any of that, but when I have help being able to kind of figure that that portion or those issues out, then I can focus on the deep thinking and the work that I need to do every day. Um and I realized early on in the boutique firm that, you know, you you end up taking some of those resources that the firm has for granted, like all of the trainings that they offer you, um, the ability to go into your iManage system and find precedent and documents that can help your client that you just don't have when you're working in a smaller uh firm that might be newer and is actually trying to build out its database. Um, and so a lot of basically everything Emily said, and just a reminder that if you do leave a big law firm, the resources won't be the same and you should appreciate them while you have them.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

Great perspective. Uh Tyler, do you have anything to add?

SPEAKER_04 12:19

Yeah, I think I could, you know, uh piggyback on uh some things that Emily and Tassan mentioned there. I mean, uh, you know, so I I did start at a more of a smaller boutique firm and then uh went into a big firm. And like Hassan said, the resources are really incredible. You know, um at my smaller firm, you might have one person there who you know wore very many different hats. Like they might be the billing person and also manage all the Westall and Lexus logins. Um, and then they also might do uh the scheduling, be to do uh you know, work sort of as a paralegal or then an LPA for something. So people wearing a lot of different hats. Um, but then kind of the shock coming to a big firm is you know, not only are there different people for those different hats, there's entire departments. You know, so there's in a whole you know uh print and copy department, you know, on that takes up half a floor, you know, like big things like that that were just kind of very foreign to me, um, which you know it is certainly I I see uh as a pro. And it's it's just a great thing to be able to know that okay, you know, there's you know, it takes big teams to to run some of the big matters that we have, and it's um you know, it it's a great benefit for that, that to be there. Um and a bit to Emily's point as well, I think you know, it it's great for some of the cases that we're able to work on to be sort of on you know the cutting edge and and have sort of those matters of first impression or you know uh things that come out, uh either whether it be regulatory or some kind of new um uh new issues that uh clients are kind of constantly facing, you get to be the one to kind of you know you know pave a path forward a bit, uh and that can be really fun. Um, so those are a lot of the pros and and just to you know being transparent as well, like people in big firms are usually paid very well, and uh most big firms pay usually on but the same or similar scale, which I think just as an associate it's it's great to have that and um kind of have uh I wouldn't say it's like closures in the heart, I guess I'm looking for, but just I guess knowing that okay, like that's not a thing I have to worry about, you know, or think about okay, am I gonna have to renegotiate next year or you know, what's that gonna look like? You know, it's kind of set for you and it's not really a thing you um you know think about too too much. Um, but then you know, sort of on the con side, I think as well, you know, I I think you know, at going through it'll be you know the the time uh that um is demanded of you. And you know, I mean, you know, our practices are sort of built around creating demand for our for our time. So our time gets demanded a lot, you know. Uh it it uh it's one of those things where it's not, it's certainly not, at least in my experience, like the horror story of like, oh, like you know, 9 30 on a Friday night and you get you know sort of random emails and you all of a sudden have to start working. That's usually, at least in my practice, that's not the case, but it's certainly a thing where like, no, you certainly have to be able to, you know, have periods of time where you're you know grinding out 50 or 60 hour weeks, um, and you know, be kind of responsive and on top of things, which can be uh certainly can be a challenge, especially over you know over longer periods.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Got it. Thank you. I'm gonna stick with you here, Tyler. Um I want to get into a little bit more about kind of your day-to-day. So I want to hear a little bit more about like a typical day or week in your practice and kind of the pace of work. Is it like a constant high volume or are there more ebbs and flows?

SPEAKER_04 15:49

Yeah. So I was thinking about like what the best way to uh when I saw this question, the best way to answer it might be. Um and I thought, well, why don't I just pull up my outlook calendar and look at uh you know uh from from two weeks ago. Uh and you know, we were preparing for a trial a couple of weeks ago, but then also had uh summary judgment motions that were going on in some other cases. So um, you know, we had uh some expert prep sessions for uh the trial that were on Monday. Uh Tuesday was mostly drafting summary judgment motions. Um we had a deposition that Wednesday, so that uh ended up taking up most of the day. Um and then we had uh some more expert prep sessions on Thursday, a few meaning confirms with opposing counsel on discovery issues on some other cases, and on Friday we uh finished off and put together the summer judgment motion that I was referring to. So that was sort of, you know, I wouldn't call it necessarily a typical week. We're not always always preparing for trial. Um, but you know, it was certainly not not out of the the ordinary, you know, thinking through it and like, oh yeah, we have you know, you know, a lot of cases, a lot of things going on, and just kind of there's always a unique layer of of how uh the different timelines stack on top of each other and the way things work out. Um I would say it's usually pretty steady, at least on uh in litigation. It feels like, and especially managed care um that I you know mostly practice is mostly in arbitrations. And a really good part about that is you know, as opposed to you know your traditional commercial litigation, you're gonna be you know in court and filing things in court, and a judge just might say, hey, deadline for this is this day, or trials can be set on this time. Uh and there's really kind of no way around it. There's a firmer deadlines. You think you'd be mood for certain reasons, but in arbitration, what's great about it is that you know, as soon as we file a case, we meet and confer with the other side, we set up a scheduling order and can you know work backwards from a trial date 18 months from now and kind of pick out and plow along uh the way uh what the various deadlines will be. So I can know, you know, okay, in October, I have expert reports to do in October. You know, I know I know that like, oh, if these deadlines line up on a Friday, that's gonna be a crappy Friday. You know, I can I can you know tell six months from now that that's gonna be the case. So um yeah, I would say it's a little more consistent that way. And and one point I add out to it too, which is helpful being like the associate that's kind of working on and helping you know develop scheduling orders is uh I had a you know big pre-preamp family vacation last year, last summer, and for the entire year leading up to it, for all the scheduling orders you're making, I was able to kind of you know block off that week and say, no, no, we're not we're not scheduling motions on this day. You know, discovery responses will not be too you know for this two-week stretch in the middle of the of the year. So uh it kind of it provides a little more um consistency and and flexibility, which you know definitely makes managing the workload a lot easier.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

It's definitely helpful when you can when you can schedule the course orders. Um absolutely. Hassan, how does that compare to your practice?

SPEAKER_03 19:11

So it's a little different. I work on the West Coast primarily with East Coast clients. So I tend to wake up in the morning with my, you know, the first couple of hours on the East Coast have already happened. I'm three hours behind. Um so I I oftentimes start my day kind of drinking coffee and catching up on what's going on email-wise. Uh, driving to the office or staying at home is at least helpful sometimes because I can kind of start getting responses out. Um, but it's a good question. And I think for me, it's more um, it's not really a day-to-day, it's a client-to-client type of situation. So I have some clients who are looking at long-term projects. Um, maybe they're they're they're going through a procurement or a contracting process with the PBM, and that might take a year or two years of going out to RFP and kind of getting big responses back and then working through the contract. Um, and so on a day-to-day basis, they might just really need attention for 15, 20 minutes, or for a particular week, a lot of attention for most of the time of your week being spent, you know, revising their contracts. Uh, for our transactional clients, I think more often you're kind of their outside, you're you are their outside outside counsel, but it sometimes feels like you're also their in-house counsel. So you're you're there, you're in the emails, you're you're pretty regularly looped into addressing quick questions. So right before we got on this call, um, one of our clients had a particular question for diligence that they're doing, and it's like they need three things and they need the answers in the next 30 minutes, right? And so it's kind of a balance of sometimes you have fire drills, sometimes you don't. Um, and each client does ebb and flow. So, you know, there's moments where one client's really demanding of your attention because they need a lot of things and there's a deadline that's relatively um soon and upcoming. And then the the same clients that two weeks ago had taken all of your attention are okay for now. And so I think it it really is every single day I I walk, I wake up, I don't know exactly what's gonna happen. What I know for certain is that whatever I thought I was gonna do that day likely will not happen until later in the day because the morning is gonna be spent just kind of getting answers out for whatever is is most pressing for our clients. Um yeah, so a lot of variation every day.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

Emily, does that ring true for your transactional practice as well?

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Yes. So my my day looks a lot more like Hassan's, and I will take this opportunity to plug my view that central time is the superior time zone to be an attorney. Um, because we like what Hassan is describing is my personal nightmare, you know, waking up and people have already had three hours of their day. That'd be very stressful. Um, but I will say I think they've uh both Tyler and Hassan have addressed very um were the specifics of their day. So I guess I'll I'll take it more from a meta level. I think that transactions, if that is the focus of your practice, definitely ebbs and flows. And I think now that I'm in my roughly seventh year as a transactional attorney, I can sort of sense when the tides are turning. Like, for example, I always travel in February. Like February is the famously slower month at our firm. Sometimes people say that they feel that way about August. That has never been my August experience. And but it is so true what Hassan mentioned, which is that it's very client-driven. I would say that for me, I have a few clients where I have been part of their organization for the entire time I've been an attorney. And so I am incredibly involved if they have transactions going on, but I'm just as involved more as like their outside, um, inside counsel on you know day-to-day requests about like what was this thing that we did in 2020, and can you find me that document? Um, there's also a difference between clients who really like the email updates versus calls. I think a lot of times one of the pain points for attorneys is that we're on calls all day. Um, and so we have a hard time then getting things done. I also have two small kids, so my day always looks a little bit different because I'll take a couple hours in the, I guess, daylight evening time to hang out with my family. And then I'm usually back online at night after they've gone to bed to finish up some of the things that I wasn't able to finish up during the day, but still have that um uh time time crunch. Um, fire drills are hard to avoid. Um, there's, you know, in transaction world, we've got bids where, you know, you you provide comments on a bid draft, and then all of a sudden you got the bid and you're closing in seven days. Um, and that that all could be difficult to plan for, but I think once you have years of experience going into it, you can sort of sense what your calendar might be looking like. And then I think the other thing that might be helpful for people who are considering their next role is when we talk about the free market system in the law firm setting. So a lot of us are, you know, we know what we do, but we aren't necessarily responsible for bringing in all of the client work that we touch on a day-to-day basis. And so sometimes what'll happen, and this has happened to me more times than I can count, I'm sure the same for Tyler and Hassan, which is that you know, you're a little bit slow, and so you put your feelers out to get yourself put on more projects, then all of a sudden all the projects hit at the same time. Um, and so to the extent that that resonates to any of our listeners, just know that we all have that experience, and I think it's a bit of a par for the course in the big law setting.

SPEAKER_02 24:39

Yeah, I can I can certainly relate to that. Um Emily, I'm gonna stick with you. For this environment, what would you say are kind of the most important type of skills to have? Like technical, interpersonal, organizational, all of the above.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Um, so I think I might have the controversial view on that. I would argue that your technical skill is probably the least important, uh, especially as a junior attorney. Um, one of the things that I have found as someone who did work prior to going to um law school and starting work at a law firm is I I tend to really favor candidates that have some type of work experience. And one of the ways that I differentiated myself when I started at McDermott was that I had a project management experience, a project management background. So even where I didn't necessarily have a sense of like I couldn't substantively mark up a purchase agreement, right? But I could help identify what the next three steps were and make sure that someone was owning those. Um, one of the things that I really value and the associates that I work with and continue to go back to all the time is that the ones that can think about what the ask was and then identify the next step are the ones that are the most valuable. So, as a really basic example, if I was asking for a response on a research question, you can either send me the conclusion of your research or you could do that and draft a client email that then could be ready to send. Um, so I think something that can be super easy to implement as a you know individual who wants to do well in their job is to try and think about what that next step is in terms of the ask that has been given to you and whether or not you can make progress on that. Because if you can demonstrate that skill, people will keep coming back to you time and time again because it's super valuable.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Got it. Um Hassan, I want to come to you for a bit of a different question. Um I want to talk about the large uh complex hierarchical teams that um are more prevalent in large law firms. Can you kind of explain how junior attorneys can navigate those teams and how they can integrate into workflows?

SPEAKER_03 26:50

Yeah, so I think uh to Emily's point, as the junior associate, I think if you can, you might not have all the technical and substantive knowledge, but if you're the person who can just kind of be aware of what's going on and you're you're pinging people, making sure that they're kind of moving along their portions of a deal, for example, um, that is the most valuable thing that I think from my perspective, if I see an associate doing that, I'm thrilled and I'm like, I want you to work on every project with me, and the substance will come as we continue to work together. Um, and yeah, the the teams are complex. There's obviously a lot of hierarchy, but I I do believe that the hierarchy can, at least at midst, we try to break it down. So partners don't just interact with the the most senior associates, they try to interact with all of the associates. But of course, on a day-to-day basis, when you're really working in a deal team, um, you're gonna most often be interacting with the people right above you or a couple of notches above you. Um, and so I think for junior associates to kind of manage that, the first step is building a cohort in your deal team that feels comfortable to you. So oftentimes the same, you know, two or three associates will be doing a similar style of assignment, whether it's diligencing contracts or looking through the data room. Um, and I always encourage them to kind of jump on a group call together or set up a Zoom chat where they can all be in constant communication with each other. So you essentially start off with a team that you can bounce ideas off of and figure out are you misinterpreting something, or is there is there an obvious answer here, or does someone else have an answer that you need to go reach out to? Um, and then from there, you know, you you kind of move up that chain. And so I would say you build a relationship with the mid-levels because those become the first people that you interact with when you're confused or your smaller cohort is confused about how to move forward on a next step. Um, but oftentimes as like a senior associate, I try to make it my goal to bridge the gap between everyone. So when there's a call, when there's an opportunity to have junior associates on calls with clients as well as the partner, my my goal is to get as many of those people on the call collectively together because I do think that having more people involved and kind of seeing what the issues are and communicating about where the deal is going to move forward is is really helpful. Um, and so I guess to your question, it's just build that cohort early on around you with the with the people that you feel the most comfortable with. But then also if you if you can build a relationship with the senior associates and the junior partners, kind of letting them know that you're interested in being as involved as possible because that opens up opportunities for you to then sit on those higher level calls and get the type of substantive knowledge that we want every associate to get as they're working with us. Um and just to again underscore Emily's point from earlier, I think that to me as well, the technical piece is not that important. It's the the people that are willing to kind of roll up their sleeves and just be involved. And when an assignment comes to you to take it from A to Z, which is oftentimes getting a response to the client and just being involved in that and helping it move along that process, I think is is so much more critical than you knowing the exact answer or the technical knowledge that Emily might have or I might have, um, and we can layer on to the process piece.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

Okay. Tyler, do you have anything to add from the litigation perspective?

SPEAKER_04 30:22

Yeah, I I you know, just thinking through this one on, I think, you know, no matter what, it's gonna be pretty group dependent. Um, you know, I think that you know, for the different hierarchical teams and and firms, it's gonna be um you know, it's gonna vary from practice group to practice group, firm to firm, even you know, uh in the same office, it could be different based on kind of who you're you're working with and uh and the kinds of cases that that you're on. You know, you could uh be on certain cases that are gonna be more uh more leanly staffed where you know uh it could for one reason or another, it could just be, well, nope, we're only gonna have two attorneys on this case. It'll be a partner and associate, and if that's how um that one is structured, or you could have you know very, you know, we have a few uh large sets of cases where it's you know very, very large uh litigation team for uh you know um multiple cases. So you know it can be it can vary you know a lot just just based on uh the type of case that you're on. Uh my advice would just be to talk to whoever, kind of uh echoing what um Hassan said. You know, just talk to people that are uh other associates, people that have been there, and just don't be afraid to ask questions about you know how things are structured, what my role should be, um, and kind of the the best ways to thrive given whatever setting that you're in.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

Okay. I wanna I want to move on to uh survival skills for folks who may be entering this practice setting. And Emily, I want to start with your perspective as a partner. Um what do new attorneys, including laterals, often struggle with during their first year in this practice setting?

SPEAKER_01 32:09

So I think one of the challenges in terms of coming into a new um a new role maybe with a new team is definitely getting your seat legs under you in terms of who's responsible for what and what people's general role is. I think that in the large law firm setting, that's one of the most valuable things about going in as a summer associate. If you have that opportunity, is you get the, you know, no pressure, a couple of months exposure to the people who are in your group and you get a sense of who's doing what and who's good at those things, and how do you get uh access to all of the various resources? Or if you're lateraling into a large firm, you need to sort of be ready to just give it all a shot on day one. Um, I think that the other thing that can be challenging for partners is the fact that large law firms are also quite expensive. So we are very often balancing what the client needs are in their budget with a super productive, great team where we can't just have everybody on every call or everybody involved in every decision. So I think one of the most challenging things for really all mid-to-senior attorney, mid-level to senior attorneys, but also in particular when you're getting yourself adjusted to a new workplace, a new way of doing things is figuring out how to be as efficient as possible while also still providing the client with a great outcome where you know they don't under, they don't see that you're stressed or stretched. Um, and all that they need to hear from you is that it's covered. Um, and I think that can be a big challenge when you don't necessarily know that, you know, there's the the person on your team who always handles the Medicare filings. And so you maybe have burned a couple hours doing research on what was required for this type of transaction structure. And as you get more experience and and more time within your team, you'll know to just pick up the phone the next time and ask that question.

SPEAKER_02 34:11

Got it. Um Hassan, I want to come to you for a question about delegation. How should early career professionals approach delegation and similarly owning projects that are delegated to them?

SPEAKER_03 34:25

Ooh, that's a great question. Um, I I actually think there's a there's a time when delegation becomes more of an issue. I don't think it is really that early on in your career. For me, it took a couple of years, and I think um because I moved between firms in my third and fourth year, I really didn't start delegating until my fourth, fifth, really my sixth year as an attorney. Um so I think this might be controversial, but as an as an early career, when you're early in your career at a big law firm, maybe don't look to where you can delegate the work, but try and take ownership of that work because I think that's where the real value and the substance or the substantive value comes from, and that's how you learn, right? And so even even something as simple as setting up an LLC is obvious, and of course that's easy to delegate to a paralegal, but before you delegate it to a paralegal as a first or second year, I think it's also helpful to know, like in Delaware, I need a file with the Secretary of State. This is how you search for an entity name in the state. Um, those those small things, if you can just hold on to them early on in your career and learn them, I think it makes you so much more valuable later on in your career. Um, and I also find that delegation is a lot more difficult than it than it seems, and I'm sure Emily and Tyler agree, but um managing and trying to give a project to someone actually requires more communication than you just doing the project yourself. Um, and so my recommendation, especially early on in your career, is to avoid delegating when you can and just take ownership of the work and try to do it to the best of your ability. Obviously getting feedback from people when you when you're stuck or you or you're not spinning wheels. You know, we don't want you to waste time and client money spinning your wheels, but really try to uh get through the project as completely as you can. Um, as you I think there's a natural time where delegation starts to make more sense. And it's when you are, for example, in a deal team, it's hard for you to be running diligence and doing schedules while also mark marking up a purchase agreement and a TSA. So there's a natural time when that split starts to happen and you get to build a team below you. But I think early on in your career, it's really more about you just taking ownership of everything that comes your way and learning it to the best of your ability so that when you're ready to delegate, you know how the process works and you can give really clear advice to the next folks that are doing that work so that they can start learning in the same way. All kind of a cycle.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

Thanks, Satan. I think that's that's really meaningful advice. Um moving on to professional development and advancing within the law in the law firm. Uh kind of uh at the beginning, Tyler, how is training handled at King and Spaulding? Is it more of a structured and formal or is it learning from experience a mix of both?

SPEAKER_04 37:16

Yeah, I think it's um could it be a bit of a mix of both. So uh at least it I can really only speak to you know King and Spaulding and sort of the uh um resources and structures that they have uh set up for us. Uh certainly in our practice group, you know, we're part of uh a larger uh government matters and regulations practice group that the healthcare practice sort of fits within. You know, there are uh either weekly or bi-weekly uh trainings that are set up for uh associates on various topics uh that are just kind of automatically added to your calendar, and they're there and you can attend them and um and sort of learn more substantively. Uh, even if it's not something necessarily that I might work with on a day-to-day basis, it's it's always great to know and kind of learn what people down the hall are doing or you know what they're focusing on. Uh that way when you know something comes up, you sort of know, oh, I know that that's an issue, and I can reach out to this person for a question or or this team. Um but you know, otherwise I feel like you know learning from experience is just sort of the um, at least personally, how I've I've learned uh the most is just you know like getting sort of I think to to what Hassan was saying, instead of like delegating or uh saying, hey, you know, reaching out for um uh assistance on things, saying, okay, let me take a second, see if I can figure this out, see how this works, um, and really you know, taking upon yourself to like develop a deep understanding of whatever it is you're doing, um, and really engaging with the the work that you're doing so that you know, okay, uh I understand how this works now, and not only because I understand kind of how this works, I can sort of start to see this piece of what I'm working on in the bigger picture. Like, why am I asking you know for XYZ in this discovery request? Well, because we might want uh an expert to be able to use this piece of information and a report, you know, like really um getting a deep understanding on your own uh uh for what you're doing, I think, is um is really helpful.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

On the topic of learning from experience, uh Emily, can you uh help explain how junior staff can develop meaningful subject matter expertise? I know you mentioned earlier that everyone has their own niche area that they're an expert in. How do you get there?

SPEAKER_01 39:40

Yeah, well, it's an interesting question up for me because I I have a I have a very generalist practice, um, but I wouldn't be able to succeed in my generalist practice if I wasn't surrounded by people who had more niche subject matter expertise. So, in my experience, what led me to a more generalist practice was I got exposure to as many projects as I could in my first several years. And um I think a lot of people have this experience where, you know, you want to get a huge diversity of experience, but you also are a bit bound by the type of projects that are coming in that that need you and need additional resources. So it just so happened that in my first few years, I did a ton of pharmacy transactions. And so for a period of time, I was the go-to person and in the whole firm for um what a like grandparent level change of ownership requirement was across the pharmacy licenses in all 50 states. Now I haven't done a pharmacy transaction in three or four years. Um, but one of the things that that taught me was that like I didn't really want to have a practice that was focused on making regulatory filings, for example. Um, and so I think that one of the best pieces of advice that I can give is not necessarily how to develop an expertise, but how to get exposure to things you might be interested in. So getting a project and hating every minute of it is a great learning experience for the fact that you need to keep yourself busy with doing the things that you really like. Um, and you can also think about it less in terms of the substance of what you're doing, but also in terms of what it entails. So it's like, did you just not really, did you kind of think it was interesting but not really like the team? Or did you really like the team, but you didn't really like the topic? And that can lead you to what you can be interested in. I think super senior attorneys have a tendency to tell all junior attorneys to find like the one thing they're really interested in. And then junior attorneys are running around trying to find like one specific thing to specialize in. And I think that it really does happen naturally over time. You just have to be open to being exposed to as much as possible in order to make it happen.

SPEAKER_02 41:51

Okay, and and to find those opportunities, uh Hassan, how should a junior a junior attorney approach networking both internally and externally?

SPEAKER_03 42:01

Um also a great question. I think internally, I mean, I do believe it kind of changes firm by firm. So at Mintz, for example, it's it's a little bit of both. We have a structure in place where if you're looking to um get more work opportunities, let's say you've never done HIPAA work. I personally try to avoid HIPAA work, but let's say you really are into data privacy, um, but you haven't been able to work with the attorneys at our team that are experts in HIPAA. Um, we have a great, we have like a practice management resource. So we have a we have a staff member who runs all of our hours and kind of manages our workloads. And you can always go to him and say, hey, I'd like to do some of this work. Can you connect me with the right attorneys? Um, you know, he'll maybe introduce you via email, or most of the time we've all kind of met over time. Um, and so you can reach out to them and say, I'd love to do some like data privacy work and where can I help? Um, and so from an internal networking perspective, specifically for getting projects, we have obviously, you know, the the structured uh go-to-this resource type of way. And then it's also a little bit of, you know, um, you work in an office, get to know the people that are also in the health law section or in the corporate section that work in your office. I prefer to start with people kind of in my same um, you know, class range and stuff because there's there's natural things that you can connect to, right? Like as a senior associate, you might be talking about having the right evaluations or you you can you can find common themes to bond over with people that are kind of in your same um area or your same level of expertise. And then from there you kind of build out. And so let's say you want to know more people internally within your firm, go to some of the happy hours, make some friends with people that are uh in similar situations as you. I've lateraled to two different firms, and the first friends I made were also laterals, whether it was at like a formal lateral training or just realizing, oh, you came to the firm two months ago. Ago, I just came here. How do I, you know, submit an expense or whatever? And you build those like more natural relationships. Um, and then from there, that is, you know, you you use those friendships to go to more internal events and and meet people and just, you know, be be available. I think if there's um affinity groups available in your firm, definitely join them. It doesn't hurt to go make some friends, go to a retreat once a year and build those relationships slowly. Uh, I think it's a it's a long-term investment to build that network within your within your firm. Uh externally, I I I would defer more to Emily. I will say I try, I do my best. I go to conferences and I I love to go to the happy hours and go to conferences and and sit in on um different seminars and listen in. Uh, but I also think that's just not for me right now, I'm still focused on my internal networking. I think there's a natural time where it makes sense for you to be out networking with more people. Um, but for me, it's like I want to be building my relationship first within my firm and with the clients that we have before I start looking to bring in my own book of business. Um, so Emily, I don't know. I kind of messed up Rob's order a little bit too, but I just don't think I'm I'm there yet, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

No, I was just gonna chime in to say I couldn't agree with you more. I absolutely was going to, you know, if you had called on me for this question, I would have said there is so much more value in internal networking, like early in your career. I think it's good to get some reps just like out there talking to random people, like just to make sure that you don't lose your your spark in that note, because that is that is a skill that's really hard, even if you don't really have anything that you're like substantively selling, for example. Um, but I I totally agree with everything Hassan said, all of the resources available in your firm, all the groups, like everything that you can do to make it so that if someone has a question or wants to uh need someone for a matter or just is wondering if you know someone is awesome at the firm that your name comes up. And I think that should be your immediate goal before you worry about spending a lot of time trying to build your external network.

SPEAKER_02 46:13

That's really helpful perspective. Thank you both Emily and Son. Um we're getting close to our hour here. Um so I want to come to Tyler for one more substantive question before we do a uh final advice. Um, Tyler, how do available hour expectations impact development and well-being?

SPEAKER_04 46:31

Yeah, so that's you know, that's sort of a great question. You know, I mean, uh always I feel like when you are talking about, you know, firms and firms in general, and then uh certainly big firms, there's you know, the sort of one of the first follow-up questions is, you know, well, what's the bill of law requirement? You know, that's that's kind of uh it goes it goes hand in hand with it. Um you know, I I think there's kind of a yin yang to it a bit. You know, there's you know development long term, and then there's well-being long term. It's sort of like, okay, have ready to find it and navigate that you know that middle ground uh in between them. You know, I'd say that you know having high buildable hours and and you know working really hard and and everything like that is is great, you know, that it's repetitions, right? It's like, you know, okay, you know, this person has you know done, you know, I'll take my example of managed care litigation for X hours, you know, like at you know, after three, four, five years, you're if you're consistently you know way over these billable hour requirements or you know uh doing a ton of work, then you have that much more, you know, over time it grows, that much more experience, and you know that many more repetitions and the subject matter. So you just kind of develop that um, you know, get more exposure to the work. So it's great that way. Um, but also that's if you're still around four or five years from there to sort of realize that. Um you know, so it's uh yeah, it's it's it's getting into it. I will say personally, like at maybe this is a little, you know, a little too grand getting into it. I sort of you know look at the hour requirement as you know something where I feel like you're gonna hit it regardless. If you're if you're busy, you know, it's sort of a thing where you know you don't have to track it too too much unless you know you're um gonna fall fall below. But you know, so long as it's like, okay, I I think I'm gonna hit it, uh, you know, I'll be there, like check in every month or so. Um, but uh you know, so long as it's you know, you feel like you're gonna get there, it's not something worth obsessing over. Um and I used to at my um when I when I first started, I would break it out by by a week and instead of an average, you know, I think it was 38 and a half hours per week. And then all right, if I build a little more, 42 and a half, that's X weeks of vacation, and I sort of obsessed over it a little bit, and that that certainly wasn't wasn't healthy either. So, like doing, you know, you can't ignore it entirely, you know, is a beneficial you know metric, but it's also not something uh to obsess over.

SPEAKER_02 49:06

Life is all about finding that balance.

SPEAKER_04 49:09

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 49:11

So for the three of you, I'd like to ask uh one thing you wish you had known during your first year of practice in this environment as a closing advice to our listeners. So, Emily, can you kick us off?

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Yeah, sure. Um, I think one thing I wish I had, I think people told me, but I wish I had internalized more, is that um the best thing that you can do for your own career is do the best that you can at every project that you're given because your reputation and what you bring to every project that you are tasked with is what ultimately is going to get people to come back and use your services. And so I tell associates that start that, you know, on even if someone's asking you to proofread an email, like do it to the best of your ability because they're gonna remember, you know, how quickly you responded and how well you did on that project. I also recommend to junior associates that ask me sometimes what is going to be like, how will I know how many projects to take on? Like, how will I know what's too many? And I always tell them, like, the only way to know is you're gonna do it wrong. You're gonna get one too many, and you're gonna realize that that was too many. And I think it's important for everyone to get to that point to understand, okay, this is what helps me, or that this is what my day needs to look like in order to make sure that I'm providing the best service to everybody. Um, and so those are those are my two pieces of advice.

SPEAKER_03 50:35

Thank you, Emily. Hassan? Um, I think my piece of advice would be that this is a career that builds on itself. It all doesn't happen at once. Um, we're in such a competitive type of world, right? So from law school through being a lawyer, like you will always have people that look like they're doing more than you or are billing 300 hours a month, and you might feel like you should be doing that. And so my piece of advice looking back is like, don't get caught up in that competition. This is a it's a marathon, not a sprint. Just to Emily's point, take every assignment that comes to you, do your best at it, and just focus on what you're doing. You know, don't worry about what's happening around you in the peripheries, just focus on your career and it will build, and you will end up sitting on one of these podcasts and talking at conferences and doing all of this stuff. You have to trust in that process, but it really just starts with you dealing with the work that's right in front of you and not worrying about what's happening around you.

SPEAKER_02 51:34

Thanks, Hassan. Tyler?

SPEAKER_04 51:36

Yeah, I think Hassan said it great. I I literally had written down it's marathon, not a sprint, is what uh the point that I had there. And he said it perfectly. Um, you know, I think one other metaphor you could you could uh kind of compare it to is uh one one that was uh told to me is that you know being an associate and being, you know, um uh especially if you're trying to be a good associate, it's sort of like a pie eating contest where the reward is more pie. Um so it's you know, it's like okay, like you can do really well, but like know that you know you have to um, you know, to be able to win that pie eating contest and sort of you know do the best that you can. You can't be the best version of yourself if you're you know taking on way too much or overworking yourself. That's sort of when you uh start um kind of not setting yourself up for success in that way. Uh so that that would probably be be mine, where it's like, okay, marathon on a sprint, set yourself up well for success, and uh you know things should you know fall in place from there.

SPEAKER_02 52:37

Thanks, Tyler, and thank you again, Emily and Hassan. Uh, I hope this was helpful for our listeners, and we look forward to bringing you another episode in this how to survive series. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 52:54

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