Health Law Career Journeys: Reflections on Fatherhood

In honor of Father’s Day, Alé Dalton, Partner, Bradley Arant Boult Cummings LLP, speaks with Dougie Barnard, Attorney, Hall Render Killian Health & Lyman PC, and Travis Lloyd, Member, Bass Berry & Sims PLC, about how fatherhood has shaped their health law career journeys. They discuss how fatherhood changed their perspective on what a successful career means, the importance of parental leave and how organizations can support working parents, building a meaningful career while maintaining a full family life, and what they hope their children remember the most about them when they are grown. From AHLA’s Early Career Professionals Council.

Watch this episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApkMiK79kFY

Watch the Mother's Day episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCr24wQkktw

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:04

This episode of AHLA Speaking of Health Law is brought to you by AHLA members and donors like you. For more information, visit AmericanHealth Law.org.

SPEAKER_04 0:16

Hey everyone, welcome back to AHLA Speaking of Health Law. I'm Allie Dalton, a healthcare money lawyer at Bradley, and I'm also honored to serve as the chair of AHLA's Early Career Professionals Council. And today's episode is a really special one. And on our Father's Day, we are talking with two healthcare attorneys who have built remarkable and more importantly, enjoyable careers while also navigating one of life's most meaningful roles, being a dad. We'll chat about career growth and mother and modern fatherhood and the lessons they've learned along the way. We're thrilled to welcome Dougie Barnard of Hall Render and Travis Floyd of Bassberry and Sims. Thank you both for being here today.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

Thank you, Allie. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 0:57

Well, to start things off, I'd love for each of you to share a little bit about your career journey, how you found your way to health law, what your practice looks like day to day, and what season of life you're in, both professionally and personally. Travis, do you want to kick us off?

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Sure. Happy to. I'm a partner of Aspiran Sims in Nashville. I focus on healthcare regulatory matters, a lot of fraud and abuse issues, a lot of reimbursement issues. I spend most of my time with hospitals and health systems. Yeah, that's that's what I that's that's my comfort zone. Um that that's what I like doing. Um I guess I my path to health law, I I actually went to law school thinking that I would help uh starving artists protect their rights and their work. Um I think it took me longer than it probably should have to realize that wasn't um the most viable path for me and that fundamentally it wasn't the most interesting thing to me. Um what was interesting to me was just sort of the heavily regulated industries, healthcare in particular. Um I had a really good health law professor in law school. I also did a Master of Public Health degree, and that really just cemented that healthcare was where I wanted to spend my career. Um on the personal side, I have two daughters, a rising second grader and a one-year-old. So I'm still in that early stage. Um that season of life where um every week feels like a year and every year feels like a week. Um, but life is full and fast, and I'm just very grateful for it.

SPEAKER_04 2:38

Love it. Thanks, Travis. Dougie, what about you? Tell us a little bit about more about your practice and your family.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

Yeah, so in law school, I knew that I wanted to practice real estate law and began my career doing that, but was not exclusively in the healthcare space. So I can thank Hall Render for giving me the opportunity to um jump headfirst into the healthcare space. And so I'm a real estate um associate at Hall Render in the Indianapolis office. And over the past few years, since joining Hall Render as a lateral, I've tried to get up to speed as much as possible on some of the regulations. And I'm sure Travis could help fill in some of those knowledge gaps for me if I ever have any questions. So that's been an enjoyable experience for me. And in terms of the family side of things, similar to Travis, we have an infant, and um, so she's our youngest, and then we have an older who's a toddler. So we are in that young early stages, still figuring things out. Um, dumb enough to think that we have it all figured out and then humbled every day to see that we still don't.

SPEAKER_04 3:40

Love it. Yes, I can definitely relate on that piece. I'd love to kick off the conversation on fatherhood in light of this being a podcast celebrating Father's Day. What surprised you the most about parenthood, Dougie?

SPEAKER_02 3:56

I would say for me, and I do want to start out by just first saying that my wife is a rock star. And so I'm gonna be speaking a lot about my experiences as a father, but I do want to give her her flowers that are well deserved. So it's it's great to have a team and I appreciate everything that she does. And in terms of what surprised me about fatherhood, I would say before having kids, I had no idea the amount of work and being out and about in the real world, seeing young parents with strollers and juggling diaper bags and bottles and all of that, it just didn't cross my mind. That was like a foreign language to me. And so now being on the other side of it, I have this deep understanding and appreciation and sort of this silent um nod of respect. You know, if I were to see Travis out and about um parenting, I would just have that nod and I see you and I appreciate all that you're doing, and and I know it's a lot of work.

SPEAKER_04 4:52

It is really wild when they hand you your baby um and you realize that one, you get to take them home. Um, they're yours, and that there's this whole world that's been happening that you had no idea what going on in all the lives. I immediately thought of all my colleagues who had children and how they were doing this and the lives that they were living outside of the office. So it's definitely um an education once you become a parent. What about you, Travis?

SPEAKER_00 5:17

Yeah, it's a it's an absurd secret, I feel like, that's kept until you're with it. Um, no, I I agree with everything Dougie said. I mean, I think that what surprised me the most is um I I guess simply sort of how hard it is. I think that's the the honest answer. I think we're we're we're used to professional success, to feeling competent, to you know, being the person in the room who knows the answer. Um I think for me at least, um, parenthood strips that away completely. Um there are moments where you just feel, I feel um like an idiot or completely uncreative. You can't figure out how to help that screaming baby in the middle of the night get back to sleep. Like, what on earth are you going to do? Um so you know, it's um it's humbling and difficult. Um and I think that you are, you know, you have no choice but to confront that immediately. Um I guess in a more detached way, I'd say that you, you know, I mean, obviously as a parent, I think almost immediately you just sort of completely reorder your priorities. Um you know, you you just you don't really get it until you're living it, in my experience at least. I mean, I think I understood it on some, you know, superficial theoretical level. Um, but again, holding that baby in your hands, I I think you just um you know, you you everything runs through sort of a different filter um in terms of whether it's the right thing to do. And that that first question is sort of, you know, is this something that that serves my family?

SPEAKER_04 6:54

Um Yeah, I I love that. It's a great segue into the next question that I had for y'all on what do you think people sometimes misunderstand about dads today? I mean, I think everyone knows that this generation of dads, um, by way of post-COVID, the the priorities that we have, the world that we live in, um, they're a little bit more hands-on. Um, and so I'd be curious to know what you what you think that folks might uh not know about this generation of dads and their day-to-day parenting, or what do you wish folks knew about the dads on their teams, especially if they're either not parents or they're removed from that season of life, especially the one that I think three of us are in, where it's very vivid and colorful and lots of emotions running around every day.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

Yeah, I would say, in terms of what I have observed among my extended family and friends. And, you know, right now I'm just thinking about um going to church and and while at church observing a lot of other young families. I just see so many dads uh being very hands-on. And and you know, that's in public settings, um out and about at restaurants and things of that nature. And so I think I just observe teamwork and I see dads um playing an active role. And I think that maybe has changed over time and expectations have changed. And I think um it's it's been great to to see how involved uh dads seem to be.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Yeah, I agree. Uh, I mean, I think that I do think that the broader mores have changed, both um, you know, just sort of in a direct way and in an indirect way, just with more working mothers uh or more brothers in the workforce having sort of you know professional careers that are every bit as involved as the father. Um I do think there's still you know a little bit of a lingering assumption in some circles that dads are kind of the the backup parent or we're doing this as a favor to our partner.

SPEAKER_04 8:52

Babysitting your chat.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

Yeah, yeah. But I mean, obviously that's that's not the case. You're doing it because that's what being a parent means. Um and I so I I mean, I don't know. I think it's a I think as always we you know we live in sort of a world of shifting understandings and um one in which everyone's coming at it from a different perspective or their own experience is different. So I think the best thing we can do is just um uh be graceful or give grace to to people and help sort of uh just just always consider the perspective that everyone's coming from.

SPEAKER_04 9:31

Um and so one of the things that you mentioned earlier was how the moment that this child comes into your life, your focus and your lens that you're looking out into the world completely changes. And one of the things that it obviously changes is sort of how you approach your success and how you define success. So I'd be curious to know how becoming a dad changed your perspective on your career, leadership, or just professional goals generally.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Yeah, I I guess from from my perspective, um, you know, there's just a general sort of a broadening of your definition of success. I think it's easy to define success pretty narrowly, especially when you are um, you know, just by yourself in, you know, especially in a in the law firm bubble. Um it's quantified and presented to you every day. So you it's it's easy to sort of um you know kind of put blinders on or understand that that is if you succeed on those metrics, then you're doing the the right thing. Um but I think parenthood just gives you sort of a either a longer time horizon or just a broader um definition of of success. Um and I think that can that can affect the way that you look at your career too. It's not just I don't mean to just say that you know, like I said earlier, you reorder your priorities and being a good parent is priority number one or darn near close to it. Um what I mean is that I think by I I think the I guess I'm trying to think of ways in which you know parenthood enhances the way or changes the way you define success in your career. Um and I think again it sort of to some degree makes it I think ultimately maybe shifts for me at least, um, shifted me in the direction of focusing on the success of others, um, of other people on my team, other people I'm I'm working with, whether I'm building something, a model that I would be proud of, um, something that's both you know sustainable and then and something that's helpful for for other folks. So that's a I don't I'm not sure I even answered your question.

SPEAKER_04 11:50

No, no, I think that that's right. I feel like the gut check that you have when you think of your child doing what you're doing, whether it's your career or the pace that you're running at or the things that you're doing, I think it's really can be really sobering and a good just gut check on sort of the choices you're making and what you're modeling for them. So I totally get that. Dougie, what about you?

SPEAKER_02 12:11

Yeah, I would say that before having kids, there was definitely similar goals. I want to build a successful career, I want to have a practice in real estate, I want to serve clients and have meaning, meaningful uh relationships. So I think that they're similar goals, but I think the why piece is just different. And once you have kids, it it changes your why. The reason that you get up, the reason that you work so hard at your career, put in um hours is to provide for your family. And I think that kind of just for me has given me a deeper motivation, I would say. And so I think from the outside, having kids can seem as if you have so many more constraints on your time, which is true, obligations and responsibilities and important things. But I do think that becoming a parent has helped me use my time much more wisely and be more efficient with less time. So, in terms of a productivity and net output productivity, I would say it has been potentially even beneficial becoming a parent because it forces you, like Travis was saying, to recenter and take a look at how you're spending your time and um things that are maybe outside of work or or other things that you were previously doing. Now you are fully immersed at work and at home. And so it it kind of has this built-in discipline. Like you have to get discipline with how you use your time. And so I've appreciated that.

SPEAKER_04 13:45

Yeah, and I feel like all the other skills that you pick up along the way, like especially if you have a toddler negotiating with them and nothing more satisfying than when they're asking a bunch of questions and you get to the point where they finally stop asking questions because you maybe answered the question. Um, I feel like has been maybe some of the best training I've received as a lawyer throughout the years. Um, Travis, I'd love to ask you a little bit. Uh we worked together back in the day. Uh, you were a practice group leader, and one of the things I remember is when you took parental leave, which shouldn't it shouldn't be controversial. It doesn't sound controversial, but I do think that sometimes it can be a challenge, especially I think what we find with the early career professionals is that the sort of ascent into leadership and partnership if you're in a firm or promotion kind of overlaps perfectly with the season of having kids and growing your family. And so I think folks sometimes, especially for the dads who you might not, you know, uh traditionally have taken as much time off or really taken advantage of parental leave policies, um, might be hesitant. And that's one of the questions that we get from early career folks. So having lived it and watched you model it really well, um, would you mind sharing a little bit with our listeners about taking that parental leave as a leader and sort of why why you decided to do that and the importance of modeling for those of us who are leadership or might be partners or you know, uh leading our organizations, why it matters to model that for the younger folks?

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Yeah, sure. Happy to. Um so my my older daughter was born when I was in my second year as a partner, um, and just a few months after I had taken over as a practice group leader. Um, so at the time that I agreed to do that, um, I was I you know I was clear about sort of the fact that I I frankly was probably not going to do it the same way that it had been done before. Um, and that that was just sort of what my what my family needs. Um and so I, you know, I did it kind of with the benefit of really good understanding leadership, even if that leadership had not done it the same way that I did it. Um so I think having kind of good senior mentor support was helpful. Now I would say that um there wasn't really like a choice or decision for me as to whether to take parental leave. It was just sort of what ought to be done for my little family unit, which is not the same thing that you know another person may may feel that's perfectly fine. I guess I resist kind of the um like the heroic framing around it. Um like in some bold statement or act or something. It was it was just the right thing to do for my family. Um now I'm glad that it you know helps contribute to a provide a good example or contribute positively to culture. And obviously, like we you know, everyone is looking at what leadership does, not what leadership says. And so I'm glad, you know, for the the message that that sends that you know that leave is not only available but encouraged that you should use it. Um, because you know, life goes on, it's not not a big deal. Um frankly, if you if you have good teams that you've built and empowered, then um it's you know, watching it succeed in your absence is gratifying, something that you should be striving for. Um, but just just to be clear, I didn't the main reason I took leave was not it was just because it was the right thing for my family, not because I was trying to um make a statement or anything here.

SPEAKER_04 17:29

Yes, no, I think that that's fair. And it doesn't surprise me that you're adding that note. But I will say, as someone who lived it and watched you do it, and then that became sort of a topic of conversation as our team uh continu their families continue to grow within our team, especially for the men on the team, like having that as sort of like a this can be done, should be done. Um, and it's normal. I think normalizing it, I think can go a really long way. I feel like representation really matters in all the ways, and um, dad's doing what you did is important. Dougie, um question for you. Um, what do you feel like organizations are getting right or wrong when it comes to supporting working parents? Are there things that have been helpful to you um as you now have navigated two babies joining your family?

SPEAKER_02 18:13

Yeah, I think um I felt very supported on on my recent paternity leave and took took a week off on top of what was given, just because I similar to Travis, um, spoke with my wife and she really felt like those last stages of pregnancy, as you're just days away from giving birth, are incredibly difficult, especially with a toddler. And so being home and having that ability to take that extra time was amazing. And so I think in terms of organizations getting things right, just respecting that being on leave is this person will be out and will be out of pocket. And um, as Travis was saying, ensuring that all deal work is is staffed and kind of passed on appropriately. I think that's an important thing for organizations and leaders to make sure that leading up to leave, um, making sure that everything is planned and staffed such that it can run independently and that person can fully be on leave and present with their family during that time. And then I would say probably on the back end of it, the transition coming back into the workforce from leave can be a little bit difficult to get fully ramped up because if the phase one of making sure everything gets staffed and passed accordingly is done well, then that all of that work has temporarily been kind of staffed elsewhere. And so I think just coming back, and um I think organizations can give space um just emotionally that to transition back, but then also from a work standpoint, make sure that that work gets you know reallocated. And so that's a fine balance. It sounds um a little bit counterintuitive. Give me space, but give me work.

SPEAKER_04 19:55

Yes, yes. I think that's a perfect way to describe it. I think there's always that fear when you're coming back, but when you're ramping down, it's always weird when your work is slowing down. And then when you're ramping back up, um you're eager to get back in the fold, but then you're also wanting to be mindful that running, you know, at an all-out pace when you come back is also probably not the most conducive, especially because I feel like most of us came back around, you know, the four-month sleep progression or some other wonderful developmental leap that's like not conducive to deep work necessarily. So, but I'd love to hear that you had a great experience in and just again, um glad not to paint it in a heroic way, like Travis, you were saying, but um certainly just recognizing that it's really cool to see um what dads are doing and and that um it's normal and common for folks to really invest in their families um, you know, in a time when they should. Um we've talked a little bit about how kids reorder our priorities and what that looks like for y'all as dads. Um, one of the questions we get from our early career professionals is how do you balance it all? Which we all know the answer is like, we don't balance it all. But I'd be curious to know between your demanding careers, your family responsibilities, and leadership roles, because both of you are very involved with AHLA. Um, what helps your life feel sustainable? What rhythms do you have that kind of keep it together? Um, or any hacks that you have for folks, Travis?

SPEAKER_00 21:20

I have no hacks. Um I mean, I think we're all in law firms, and I do think that while we have lots of demands on our time, we enjoy a lot of professional autonomy in many ways, um, and that flexibility I think um helps me make life sustainable. I think maybe I would say um protecting sort of small rituals is is very important, just little things. Um you know, whether that's personal time, um, you know, whether it's just exercising or um, you know, or or connecting with your Faith um or sort of family time in terms of you're always going to, you know, be here during this window of time. It's just you're you're you're out of contact then, and that's that's that. Um even if that's just sort of you know mundane kind of family activities, not some kind of special tradition or something like that. I feel like just small, consistent things go a long way um to kind of creating that that rhythm that that makes it um survivable or or sustainable. I guess I do think you uh I mean a key feature of that is just knowing being being more selective about what you say yes to. Um and it's it's a hard impulse for us to probably resist to fight at some point because we it we're you know we're rewarded by saying yes in so many ways, not just in terms of work, but even just HLA opportunities or other professional development opportunities. Um you know, but I think I think as a parent you you you have to get a little choosier there, you know, if it doesn't if it's not something that serves your family, that serves your clients, you just you gotta think harder about whether it really deserves your your precious time and attention. Um and then I think I mean I guess the first thing I probably should have said um was just having someone who is truly in it with you um and making time for your relationship with your partner. Um you know, I I think that's sort of foundational and um and it's so obvious, that's why I didn't mention it first, but that's a pretty darn important thing um to kind of to make this feel, you know, like you can keep all the plates fitting.

SPEAKER_04 23:52

Yeah, I agree. I couldn't, I mean, I echoing what both of you have said, um, having a spouse who's in it with you and having that teamwork is critical, um, both in the good days and the tougher days. Um so I think we all just taking a moment to give a shout out to our spouses, they're the MVPs, getting some credit on the podcast. Um but um Juggy, what about you? What are things that are helping your life feel sustainable, especially as you're ramping back up from leave and having an infant at home?

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Yeah, I think it's a it's an ongoing question and conversation with yourself to just make sure. Um, because I'm thinking back to some of the earliest days of being on leave and getting back from the hospital with a newborn and a toddler, and needing and wanting to be there to also take care of my wife who's recovering. And so I think in moments like that, you have to make sure that you yourself are in a good place that you can give, that you don't run out of steam trying to kind of take care of everyone else and forget to look after yourself. So I think, and then that process changes over time. And now being back at work, it's a similar thing when work is stressful and the hours are high. You need to make sure that you don't run out of steam because then that will impact your ability to be present at home and to be a good spouse as well. So, in terms of trying to fill my own cup up, um, I think one thing is just being very efficient during the work days. I think efficiency can kind of unlock more time. And so that's managing your calendar and as Travis was saying, things that um are not serving you, saying no and letting go of those types of things. So just having a very disciplined approach to calendars and just being an efficient biller, I think, frees up some time. And then I I've also lately, um, as a stress relief, just become one of those lunatics that's walking on a pad and taking calls and trying to trying to do it all. I've not fallen off my walking pad, I will say. So that's that's big plus.

SPEAKER_04 25:55

You might get some outreach for a link to the walking pad that you're using. So no sponsorships today.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

No, no, exactly. No free ads, but that actually has helped me quite a bit. It's just a routine. I get to the office and we I have a standing desk. And so being able to walk several miles while working kind of is a nice stress reliever. Um, I would love to do workout classes before or after during the workday as well, but I've kind of found that at this stage in life, my my fitness routine is just a little bit of walking. And we'll take what we can get, and it helps me kind of feel active and mobile. So that's just a small way that has helped me.

SPEAKER_04 26:32

I love that. Thank you for those tips. I will definitely reach out to you about the walking pad. Sounds great. Um, so just the next part that I'd love to talk to you all about. We've talked a little bit about what we would tell the early career professionals who are listening to this, to this episode. Um, one of the things that we hear the most about um is just how to be build a meaningful career. And I would say obviously that's gonna depend on your definition of success and like what you're wanting out of being a health lab professional or whatever space that you're in. Um, but both of y'all have had success both at work and home. And I'd be just curious to know what would you say to someone who is starting out and thinking of like, how do I make this into something that is fruitful and that I look back on in five years and feel like I'm both proud of what I did in the office, but also at home, or again, however, they define success. How did you find that sort of meaningful piece? Um, and how can folks think about that as they graduate from law school or start their health law journeys?

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Um I guess I don't have a snappy answer to that. Um I do think that there's value. I mean, this is a, you know, the nature of this profession is well, like most skills in life, you've got to put in the work to hone the skill. Um, so I do think there's some value in kind of the those early investments matter a lot. You know, that first 10,000 hours or whatever that you're where you're learning how to do this, just putting in the work, building the skills, building relationships. Doing all that creates options down the road. You know, I'm not that I am not by saying this, do I mean um that if that's incompatible with your family life that you should forsake family to stack those, you know, those career development skills. I do think though that it's helpful to maybe just think about the the arc of the career or the length of it and the fact that there is sort of you climb up the learning curve for a while and then all of a sudden you're you know, you're just doing it. Um so I I guess I guess what I would say though, um other than just work hard at the beginning, which is not a great message, uh, would be that there's not I would resist the idea that you have to kind of sort of choose between having a great career and a full family life. That's a false choice. Um now you've got to figure out how to do it and it's gonna be unique to you. No one can sort of hand you, you know, the the blueprint um or the hack or whatever. You're gonna have to build it. Um and building it requires you to you know think deeply about what matters to you and what you need, and having conversations about that with your with your partner, um you know, with your with your firm too, or with your your organization. Um but I I do think that it's you know it's I guess just important to recognize that there's no sort of um there's no one route to success. Um and i I mean I I I really don't want to just fall into platitudes of it's you know it's not a sprint, it's a marathon, but there's something to that um that just appreciate that this is you know, you're not gonna be happy with yourself if you you know squeeze in those 10,000 hours in the first couple years and are all of a sudden the world's greatest stark lawyer, but then have done that at the cost of you know the family time that you'll never get back. Because I'm sure if we're asked what we you know what we want to be remembered for, none of us want to be remembered for being the world's greatest star cloyer. Um it's fundamentally different. So um that yeah, I'll I'll I'll pause there because I uh I'm not sure I have a coherent thought to add there.

SPEAKER_04 30:42

I think it's yeah, I think it's a great reminder for folks too, because I do think it feels I mean, I remember um sitting in your office talking about making partner and all these sort of goals that I had from early on. And then once I got there, I sort of felt a little bit like both excited, but then realizing, oh, this is this is like the start of the career in many ways. Um obviously you have experience, but it's like a whole new thing, and it's gonna be pretty much the rest of your career, it's gonna be more way more years than my associate years. And I wish I would just take a moment to really heed that that guidance and encouragement that um taking the scenic route or taking a moment to pause and take it in, um, even if you're moving at a rapid clip, um can really help you um appreciate the journey there, I guess. So I'm always a fan of that reminder for folks having lived it. And I wish I would have remembered that a little bit better. But it was not for lack of people telling me and encouraging me. Dougie, what about you?

SPEAKER_02 31:44

Yeah, I think what I'd add to that is just speaking to any of the younger folks earlier in their careers or potentially in law school, trying to plan out their careers, just the importance of finding an area of the law that you are intrinsically interested in cannot be overstated. And so to someone who's newer in their career or potentially an associate that's um working in different practice areas right now, I think getting that decision right and doing whatever it takes to end up in that area of the law that you're interested in. And I think a good barometer for just thinking about that is thinking about picking something up and reading it on a Saturday or Sunday in your free time. Is that something that you're interested in learning more about? Um, to the point that outside of work, you would want to do some light reading on it. And I think that if it is, then that's fantastic. And it'll serve you for the rest of your career to be in an area of the wall that you want to continue to learn more about and become an expert in.

SPEAKER_04 32:45

Travis, I feel like it is like listening to a younger you encourage us to do some of the things that you told me when I was an associate. I love that um suggestion, Dougie. And thankfully, HLA, you know, a great pitch pitch for HLA and folks who are listening is that there's so much content in all the practice groups, substantive and otherwise, that they can listen to or read or watch. Um, and it's a great way to explore the different spots, you know, within health law. Um, some of our closing questions, these are two questions that we also asked um during our Mother's Day podcast. And the first is um, we'll start with you, Dougie. When your children are grown and thinking about you someday, what do you hope they remember?

SPEAKER_02 33:26

That's really hard.

SPEAKER_04 33:28

Tears are allowed. You don't have to cry, not required.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

Yeah, I have not thought about that before. It's a very challenging question. I think I would want them one day to speak about my excitement for just being being there, being by their side and being a cheerleader in everything that they do. And and right now with an infant and toddler, we're not doing, we don't have the full weekend of activities and sporting events yet. So right now we're cheering on you know, the walker. That's a big thing in our household. So just being that that vocal cheerleader and um yeah, biggest fan.

SPEAKER_04 34:13

I love that. Travis.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Um well again, it has nothing to do with the reason why we're talking, which is being healthcare lawyer. I think I would just I hope that they remember that I was there for them when they needed me. Um I hope that they have a rich library of little moments, little memories, um trivial, silly things um that cultivate in the aggregate, you know, provide comfort, provide warmth. That's what I think about when I think of people who who I've lost in my life. That's where I that's where I want to go. And that's the the library of thoughts that I want to to leave them with. And I think the way to do that is to be present, which is awfully hard. I mean, that's like the biggest sort of threat um I feel like that we have is that we we carry a lot around with us. So even when we're physically present, you know, we're we might be mentally occupied, or you know, it's a it's a symptom of it when we wake up in the middle of the night thinking about the reply to the email that we need to write. Um it's hard to shed that. Um, but I think I I yeah, I think I just want to have built all of those memories um so that there is sort of this, you know, um a picture of someone who cared about what he did in his career, um, but was also present and engaged as a parent with them. But those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

Um Travis, I have a follow-up question on that. I like your I like your terminology of a rich library. So to to turn that question around, what are some of those moments that you'll hold on to as a father? Because one day, you know, when when your kids are all grown up, they may not remember some of these earlier moments. Um, but I'm sure you will. So do any come to mind uh in your rich library?

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Oh man, not that I'm willing to share publicly without seeming really weird. Um they are just silly things. But I mean, I was always amazed when we first had our daughter and were in the thick of it, how we would just go to bed exhausted, but we would immediately pick up our phones and be looking at like pictures that we took that day. And that just that that just I think kind of sums it up in a way. You you get there's so many, I mean, I I love nothing more than you know, seeing like an old video from when my older daughter was two and listening to how her voice sounded, you know, as she said something, and you just you you start to you forget those, you know, those little things. So I it's there's no sort of um I don't have like a masterful plan of memory creation here, um, something that I'm engineering. It's just I think being present, being there in the day-to-day, so that you can observe just the the silly little things that I I mean make our lives, you know, rich and full.

SPEAKER_04 37:28

Thanks for sharing, Travis. I love that question, Dougie. I think that there's so many things that you hold on to that, like the mispronunciations of Costco and other words and things that you'll definitely remember. Um, so thank you all so much for sharing that. Um, the last question I had for you is if you could share an encouragement with your younger self as a new dad, what would you tell him?

SPEAKER_00 37:50

Um, I would say put your phone down and get on the floor and play. That would be it.

SPEAKER_04 38:00

Dougie, how about you?

SPEAKER_02 38:03

I would say I I really think that any word of encouragement is can go so far uh because those early, and especially the first time you become a parent, it is so overwhelming, right? I remember worrying, over worrying about things that didn't need to be worried about at all, and just using so much energy. And so I was in a pretty fragile state, um, I is safe to say. And so I think just any word of encouragement, um, I'm proud of you, would be probably what comes to mind. Um, but I I think along the lines of what Travis said, in terms of going back and giving advice, I think enjoying the the slow moments before bedtime, I think would be something that I would try to tell myself. I'm a very disciplined planned, everything needs to be on schedule type of person.

SPEAKER_04 38:54

So they're not bedtime.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

I would say don't worry about the 7:45 in the crib and then you're out of the room. Like stay in there, enjoy it, let them fall asleep on your arm and get sweaty. And like, it's gonna be okay. Tomorrow the sun will rise. And these moments, you know, you're gonna look back on one day and wish that you'd maybe let them play out and enjoy them a little bit more.

SPEAKER_04 39:16

Yeah. And you I feel like you never know when the last time you'll do one particular thing with them is. I think that's the biggest thing that I'm reliving now, you know, uh, just of like, are we gonna with the first one? You're like, are we gonna rock to sleep for the rest of our life? Am I gonna be rocking you in your dorm? And then you realize that you can't remember the last time that you've rocked them to sleep. And so it's all just a lot of seasons. Um, thank you both so much for this conversation. You're both such great dads, and we are so lucky to have you as friends and also as leaders in AHLA. Um, one of the gifts of hearing from leaders like you is just a reminder that there's no single blueprint for success, fatherhood, or leadership. Careers evolve, families evolve, and priorities evolve. And the most meaningful things we can build are the relationships and memories, like we were talking about, um, alongside our professional accomplishments. So thank you so much. And to everyone listening, whether you're a dad, hope to be one someday, love a dad, or work alongside a dad every day, we hope this conversation encouraged you. Thank you for joining us for HLA Speaking of Health Law. And if you enjoyed this episode, please share and subscribe. Until next time.

SPEAKER_03 40:26

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