RADIANCE: Liberating Women from Patriarchy, Colonization & Oppression with Elise Brenner

In the last interview of the Radiance Series focussing on women's health and Reiki, hosts Carrie, Michaela, and Bronwen converse with special guest Elise Brenner, founder of Brenner Reiki Healing. 

The discussion delves deep into the cultural and structural challenges women face globally, particularly focusing on health disparities influenced by gender roles and societal constructs. 

Elise shares her insights on how historical agricultural practices have led to patriarchal control over women's bodies, and how these influences persist today. 

They also explore how Reiki and mind-body practices can empower women to develop critical consciousness and liberate themselves from internalized gender expectations. 

Additionally, they discuss the barriers preventing women from accessing such practices and offer solutions for making mind-body healing more equitable.

00:00 Introduction to Gender-Specific Health Challenges
01:57 Welcome to the Reiki Women Podcast
02:07 Elise Brenner's Background and Expertise
03:06 Historical Context of Gender Inequality
04:34 Impact of Agriculture on Women's Bodies
07:33 Control Over Women's Bodies and Patriarchy
09:38 Framework for Women's Healing
19:09 Reiki Practice and Gender Expectations
19:59 The Fourth Precept and Internalized Gender Roles
25:04 The Role of Anger and Worry in Healing
34:53 Clear Thinking and Critical Consciousness
35:50 Unique Patterns of Stress in Women
39:11 Fear and Hyperarousal in Women
41:22 Impact of Societal Stress on Health
42:54 Holistic Health and Social Determinants
44:33 Personal Reflections on Stress and Health
46:58 Barriers to Wellness Practices
49:39 Community-Based Solutions for Wellness
53:47 Reiki and Mindfulness in Healing
01:02:12 Decentralizing Wellness and Future Visions
01:08:08 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Guest:
Elise Brenner: https://www.brennerreikihealing.org/

Hosts:
Bronwen Logan: https://ReikiwithBronwen.com
Carrie Varela: https://www.reikihealingsociety.com
Michaela Daystar: http://HeartscapesInsight.com

We now have our own email! reikiwomenpodcasts@gmail.com
Our own RWP Group discussion: Embodying Reiki
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Transcript

Speaker 2 0:06

there are definitely gender specific health challenges cross culturally, but at the same time, despite some diversity, they all tend to involve a cluster of commonalities cross culturally. So this culture, it's like a tyrant, right? It colonized women's bodies. Forced women to be estranged from their bodies, and then the same bodies are manipulated by capitalism and by patriarchal ideologies. Parenting is health or poor health. The environment is health or poor health, right? Transportation, housing, education, livelihood, opportunity, power, privilege, equality, inequality, laws, customs. Ideologies bring health or poor health. Gender roles bring health or policies bring health. One's neighborhood brings health or poor health. And actually, being perfect would be the best of all, right? And there's a sense deep inside that we're kind of doing this to stay safe.

Speaker 4 1:57

Hello and welcome back to the Reiki Women podcast. We're very excited to have Elise Brenner on our show today. She is the founder of Brenner Reiki Healing, and it's located in the greater Boston area of the Auburn Neendale section of Newton, Massachusetts. She is a continuing education provider for nurses and social workers who wish to consider Reiki training courses. Elise, thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 2 2:29

Thank you, Carrie, Michaela, Bronwen, for the invitation, I'm pretty excited to share. I'll get a little nerdy and so it'll, it'll be all right.

Speaker 4 2:41

You can bring

Speaker 3 2:42

all

Speaker 4 2:42

the nerdiness you want, uh, here on the Reiki Suite. We love to geek out and nerd out, a, you're an anthropologist and a Reiki practitioner, how have you observed gender specific health challenges manifest differently across cultures? And how does this inform your approach to women's health and healing?

Speaker 2 3:03

Thank you, great question. So, there are definitely gender specific health challenges cross culturally, but at the same time, despite some diversity, they all tend to involve a cluster of commonalities cross culturally, once we see the rise of a kind of labor intensive and land intensive agriculture, agriculture. Sure. And associated with that patriarchy now parenthetically there are exceptions when we talk about matrilineal matrilocal non labor intensive non land intensive farming systems, but those were they're really horticulture and I don't want to like nerd out completely, but I'm talking about intensive agriculture. That means you work the land really intensively work really hard. Lots of people. And I don't want to aggrandize the pre farming and hunting and gathering way of livelihood and culture, but we are quite sure, in terms of archaeology, that there was far less marked gender inequality and far fewer harmful gendered cultural practices. This was less so in Arctic areas, just to notice parenthetically again. So, go back. With agriculture comes this control over women's bodies, which we find cross culturally. Like, how can that be possible? And I'll try to be brief. So I'm looking at, by way of contrast first, non Arctic region hunters and gatherers. They're a low population density. And one of my anthropology professors was famous for saying spacing out. And what he meant was low population density for hunters and gatherers. They are spaced out across the landscape, treading very lightly in order to keep that balance between population size of people. And the natural density and distribution of wild plants and animals on which they depend. So, if they have too many people in a band, or too many people in a region, there'd be this undue pressure on the wild resources, and that's the quickest way to basically annihilate your hunting and gathering band. So, what happens with agriculture and animal domestication? Is it plants and animals are no longer wild. They're no longer growing in their natural habitats in their natural ways. Their reproduction is now controlled by farming people, right? There's even a change in their gene frequencies, because humans are selecting for the properties of the animals and plants that they want, that the humans want. So, I know it's this common assumption that hunters and gatherers worked really hard, and that's like what we learn in our society, but it's actually not true. Farmers work a lot harder than hunters and gatherers ever did. It takes a lot more work to control your food supply than it does to go out and hunt and gather a few hours a day. So we have this labor intensive enterprise. Well, it needs a lot of labor power from people. So these early non mechanized but intensive farmers needed a really large population size. And how do you get more people? Well, you get more people through the bodies of women. Right? And not only that, if let's say you're a new family, and you're working on a plot of land, and you're investing your labor and everything into the productivity of the land. That family would likely want to be sure that the land would be passed down to its own children, right? So what does this have to do with patriarchy and control over women's bodies? So, right, take a woman giving birth. In this farming little family, and she sees her newborn, newborn emerge from her own body. So she's pretty certain she's the mother. By contrast, a man can never be certain that that newborn is his. He can never be certain of his paternity unless he, backed up by his entire culture, and put into effect. Strategies and customs and expectations and ideologies and beliefs and practices around controlling the bodies of women. Controlling their clothing, controlling their mobility, where they can go, where they can't go, controlling their behavior, and of course, controlling their sexuality. So the argument is The control over women's bodies and patriarchy arose with labor intensive, land intensive agriculture. And I know I'm simplifying a really complex process. I'm not providing the archaeological evidence here. So now we've got that kind of historical. But, and prehistoric, actually. So, so the way societies have found to control women's bodies with these health harming practices called customs and laws and backed up by ideologies of misogyny, male superiority, and domination, these practices are horrifyingly creative and diverse, yet they all have The common goal of controlling women's bodies, controlling their sexuality, controlling their reproduction, controlling their behavior, and controlling their thoughts. So on to the second half of the question. How does this inform my approach to women's healing? Yeah, so this whole thing I just went through provides a structural, historical, and ideological framework or context. For the experience of women suffering and all gender based suffering on the planet. So it provides like the social, political, economic, and emotional ecology, right? And I will intentionally share that framework with clients and students. Not every time, right? So that they can get that larger context. And see how that contributes to a good deal of their suffering and distress. So that is a context or a framework for individual healing and collective healing. Because, if not, the default is to blame ourselves or blame other women. So it's really important to develop, you know, the term critical consciousness of this historical, political, social, emotional, and economic ecology. That result in a basic failure to thrive for most women around the globe. Um, and let me see, I just have a couple of last things to get into. And I'll be done with this question and bring on your thoughts. So, individuals tend to think they bring their suffering on themselves or they blame this or that. But so much suffering has to do with large scale political and economic forces. Yeah. And with pervasive social violence. And this kind of suffering, the structural violence requires large scale social transformation. So you have this one person, student, or client. The story of their individual suffering is also a story of that individual's social context, of their social positionality, and the larger context that are possibly hidden to them and hidden to our culture as a whole. And then to recognize that we internalize the ideologies, right, the messages, the messages, the ideologies, we internalize them and how we pass them along. Maybe mother to daughter or friend to friend has a way to stay safe. So some people will use the word that, um, women's minds and bodies have been colonized, right? And the need to decolonize the heart, the mind, and the body, right? Because we're internalizing messages of individualism, isolation, and separation that are inherent. And not just colonization, but industrialization. So where does then that go would be, um, to decolonize and heal needs reconnection and sacred relationships, right? That kind of get out of the barrier, the skin of the personal wounding and the cultural conditioning. So this culture, it's like a tyrant, right? It Colonized women's bodies. Forced women to be estranged from their bodies, and then the same bodies are manipulated by capitalism and by patriarchal ideologies. Especially those wrought upon women, especially women of color and queer or trans women. So, it was kind of a mouthful. We kind of traveled time and space. That is my approach, as it is now, right? It has changed and maybe will change. And so I know, Carrie, you were, um, you had some background in anthropology yourself, and I don't know if it was like, I was, began as a prehistoric archaeologist. With the, you know, you can see the inequality, gender inequality.

Speaker 4 14:15

Oh, I'm over here just boiling in rage, at least, and I think we all should be angry, right? I mean, I'm like, how am I going to practice Reiki? I'm just so angry. But, um, uh, yeah, you know, I love that. I love that perspective because this is what, you know, I had a background in cultural anthropology. And so this understanding of how culture and society, we don't realize how much we've internalized it. But it's, it was, uh, just. Such a revelation to hear you talk about that, so thank you so much for sharing us that, that backdrop and I think if we all as women understood that more, we would feel more heat and intensity around our own inner liberation. And I love that you brought forward that colonization piece as well. So, um, in my practice, I've, uh, you know, brought decolonization principles. into the practice of healing, because I see it is so essential to us reclaiming our true self from these systems of, of pain and suffering in the world. And without addressing colonization, we cannot, we just simply cannot, um, create that internal and collective change that I think so many, so many of us who are in the healing arts feel inspired to do.

Speaker 2 15:36

Gary, I feel so less alone, hearing that from you because I felt that I'm kind of walking that by myself. So I'm just so relieved.

Speaker 5 15:57

You're absolutely not alone, Elise. And you're pointing to something that's really part of why we started this podcast, which is that voices who kind of integrate these layers of historical, cultural, spiritual significance and history together and bring that into our Reiki practice, you know, aren't necessarily the norm, right? And so we're out there. But we need to be beacons for each other so that we can come together in these ways and others so that we can have these conversations and bring this context out into our wider community. And, you know, I'm just really loving to hearing this beautiful blending of. Your academic background, your research background with your passion for healing, and I'm very, very much relating to that. I'm a former academic myself working, you know, with a training in history and then working directly with students for about 15 years on leadership development around social justice and, you know, went into practicing Reiki. Largely because I wanted to bring these, these realms together and so I'm, I'm just all with Carrie in the rage and also all a tingle at the like, uh, the coming together of these worlds that, you know, I, I don't get to, um. To be with in the same space very often, so very much appreciating that and what you just shared this really beautiful, like, high level and then kind of zooming it into like, okay, but what does this have to do with today? Our lives are our processes. One of the things that you really highlighted is the way in which this pattern of. Of colonization of patriarchy of control over women that began in these highly industrialized agricultural centers gets passed along over the generations from person to person and that oftentimes that passing along comes through the matrilineal experience and there's a, you know, there's a real tenderness, a real, you know, kind of pain to that. And, you know, that gets mirrored, um, in conversations that I've had with. With my friends who are black women, who are mothers, um, that come from interracial families have had these conversations with family members quite a bit of having to pass down kind of toxic social structures to our children in order to keep them safe. And that, that just really touched a chord with me. That you know, whether or not it's conscious for many of us, it's not right. It's just teaching our kids, the society that they live in, you know, passing on the culture that we're in for those of us who have this kind of awareness and have had experiences where we kind of see the threads that go back in history and have this awareness that this isn't how it always has been. And it's not necessarily how it always has to be. There's this poignancy of having to pass, you know, pass these things along and wanting to. Yeah. You know, kind of hold the complexity of, of teaching our children to be different, but also keep keeping them safe in the context that they're in all of that is to say, you know, when you, when you think about your role as a Reiki practitioner and as one who teaches other medical professionals to be Reiki people, or at least advises them in that realm, which is so exciting to me. Um, I wonder, you know, how, how. If, if you could walk us through how practicing the system of Reiki can really help us as women, first of all, recognize these internalized gender roles, this, this box that we have been put in, um, for a very, very long time, you know, to recognize them, to make them visible and to begin to release them, right? These expectations, this, this you know, kind of traumatic system that's been passed on for so long. Um, so that, you know, those, those practices might contribute to their physical and emotional healing from distress.

Speaker 2 19:46

But I'm gonna do my best with that last piece, Michaela, but mostly I'm just really grateful for everything you said, uh, when you said you're all a tingle. This is like, this is a little, that's, that, I got that. I guess how Reiki practice is, um, I might like to go to the fourth precept here first for Reiki teachings that might help women recognize and become courageous enough, right? To put down internalized gender expectations as you say that contribute to distress and suffering and for everyone, you know, the fourth precept, you know, it's like one of those that I guess are quite difficult to translate from the Japanese. I, I know there's be true to your way and your being as in way with a capital W as I see it like Dow. And another one, um, do what you are meant to do. So, just, we'll, we'll, we'll, oh, be reminded, I just want to remind you what that fourth one is. And you know how Usui writes at the beginning, that precepts are the medicine for all ills. And I see that as including social ills, such as the oppressive, right, patriarchal tyranny of women's minds and bodies. And since the fourth precept in particular is really about touching the essence of who we are, like that eternal and timeless essence of who we are, that's underneath all those conditionings, um, that's why the fourth precept comes to mind. And another thing about the fourth precept, and I have, I'll have some more too, right, is that it helps us, I think, to include all parts of ourselves, including the parts that we banish because we're ashamed, and the shame is often, I would say, from harmful conditionings, or it could be not cultural conditionings, but, you know, more personal woundings. So, um, Reiki practice, and I'm going to talk about the fourth precept in particular, all of them are indeed the medicine that brings us to stillness, to pause. And for me, especially collecting my awareness about what I've, you know, been calling the habit energy that I've been carrying, and then that that awareness is also contextualized, so a recognition of the stuff that, you know, is in the ecology, the harmful policies, laws, and actions that are sourced from hatred and so forth. Racism transphobia, white supremacy, Christian nationalism. So, the practice with the first precept is meant to touch deep something timeless and eternal within us, which is kind of like a different consciousness to embody. Compared to the fabricated, you know, people talk about the constructed, the fabricated, constructed, social, political, economic world. We, we have to live in day to day, but that's the world that's fraught with horrific acts of gender based violence and harm, personal, collective, and cultural. And I'll be talking later again, of course, that gender related constructs that bring harm aren't experienced the same way by every woman. Yet, they bring distress, illness, and agitation to, I would say, every woman. I'll talk more about that idea. There's no such thing as a woman. Um, and we all need an antidote, and it's not to run away from, you know, the relative world we inhabit day to day, but to know that there's another, like, sphere, um, of being, of awareness. And when we can bring that more timeless and eternal consciousness into daily, our daily life, our thoughts, our words, and our actions really do become transformed over time, over time. Um, think about, like, just more breathing space to be who you are, more breathing space for other people to be who they are, and that other people feel safe around us. Those are healing waves. And it's really all the precepts. So, like, the first precept, you know, for women, the anger that Carrie expressed. Um, that's a signal, that's a message about real threat and danger, like, it's like the tyranny of women's minds and bodies carry on with impunity, right? And that is, that's it, right? The moral community is not rallying the support to victims of gendered tyranny. Um, your clients, your students, all of them, experiences, their experiences include the fact that their family betrays them. Bystanders betrays them. It's so devastating to feel that alone and shamed. And then there's Like, the institutional betrayal, like, lawyers, district attorneys, the entire criminal justice system, and that arouses anger, and then, you know, Carrie, like, uh, the practices then, what to do with that Anger energy, right? And we know what we want to try to orient and mobilize the energy of anger toward breaking down harmful systems, and we can't do it alone. We can't do it alone. Can't do it alone. So I'm going to just, I'm going to go through the precepts real quickly. Um, the second precept, worry. Well, unfortunately, with the level of gender based violence, or just the anticipation of violence, right? Sometimes. States don't need coercive means. To control people. It's just the anticipation that there'll be bad repercussions, right? So, gender based violence that's actual is actual. And then within us is that anticipation of the violence, right? That this harmful and oppressive speech and acts and laws and policies, it can keep us in a state of hyper arousal and vigilance. So to be a woman might be, in this world, to worry quite a bit about our well being and the well being of women in our lives and around the world as we navigate through our societies, our cultures, our religions. So, then saying that I have to be with this worry, I say, I, um, I know that there's both internal and external, but I am kind of a fan of collective action. So that, that might be something I'll put that aside. Third precept. I mean, we all know that having the eyes of gratitude is an antidote to so many things, but there's so much about gratitude out there. I'm going to put that one down for now. And do things that I might have some different ideas on. And then we're back to that fourth precept. Oh, because I'm in order, even though I already mentioned it. And I have to tell you, I'm, I'll be 70 this year. And I have a lot of women clients. And you know, people talk about that external locus of identity problem. Like, I have clients that are 40, 50, 60 years old. And actually they don't know who they are. So how can we be true to our way in being if we don't know our way in being? Because our way in being is who our parents told us to be, who our teachers told us to be, who our partners told us to be, who our religion told us to be, or who our society constantly tells us to be. And Reiki practice, all of it, in the fourth precept, the biggest reminder in this context, is really about Getting more familiar with ourselves, our true selves, under all the gender based constructs and conditionings. And brings me to the fifth precept, being compassionate to all beings, including ourselves, obviously resonates. A lot of teachings about that, so I'll put that down right now for this context. So, all of our Reiki practices invites the stillness. And the pause in which if we choose to do so, we can bring our awareness to internalize gender expectations that might be contributing to our physical, emotional distress and say, yes, this is what, this is been my life and now that I know what was, what was once choiceless, seemingly choiceless, is. Now, I have some choice. So that's my thoughts for, for that question.

Speaker 5 30:26

I just have to say, Elise, it, it makes me so excited to hear you talk about Reiki in these terms. Like, this is, this is the viewpoint that I've cultivated in my practice for many years as, you know, using Reiki as a pathway for personal and collective liberation and transcendence of individual and collective trauma and to confront these structures rather than, you know, spiritual practice as a way to maybe check out from those structures or ignore them or move away from them or feel like they don't have anything to do with me because I'm such a spiritual person. I've transcended all of that. But to really bring us back into the reality of life and say, we have these practices that can help us be our authentic self, even. Even though even though all of that is true, and it's I'm I'm very excited to hear you talk about it in those terms, and I really look forward to hearing your response to Ronald's question.

Speaker 2 31:20

Thank you, Kayla and I have heard you speak. And I have said, Makayla, Elise,

Speaker 5 31:28

Makaylis. It's the ship we didn't know we needed.

Speaker 31:38

I've loved listening to all of you talk and I'm certainly not a trained anthropologist or anything like that. I can think of it in terms of my own life and the women that I know. Yeah, there is also a grief, isn't there, about what we have gone through in our lives and, when a lot of that was really not necessary and that lack of awareness of why. I always love going back to the seed of anything and the seed of what it means to be a woman today. And I really feel that. There is a great deal of, ignorance about this, that we don't really see ourselves. in that picture that you made. And, uh, I have this picture on my desk. I just grabbed it then. This is me when I was a little kid. When I look at it, I just see so much joy and life and excitement and adventure. That is what we are all born with to certain degrees. Of course, we're all individuals and then where does that go? How does that transform? And it is transformed by these things that you've talked about. And do we recognize that? It is so important to see these things and to become more aware of it. And then I was thinking about myself in the 1980s when I was, becoming a woman, a woman of the world. And I. thought that I had equality. I really did. I thought I had equality. But then when I look back years later, and I look at myself in the eighties, well, no, you didn't. But because I was not aware of the constructs that I was living within. And then I look at us today, I look at me today, and it's such a difficult subject to often talk about, and it does sometimes feel like there is almost like a blaming, as you were saying, we're too ready to blame, but it can't come back to blame. It just has to come back to awareness. being true to who we are, starting to understand who that is, as you said, just so beautiful. But seeing that inside us, but also seeing it inside society. Where we live, what is the truth of that society and who, or what is that society at its heart?

Speaker 2 34:04

You know, Bronwyn, I have to say you really hit upon something that's So important to just maybe amplify for a moment. And that's when you said ignorance, it's On purpose. So the fancy word is mystification, right? So what did you eat for breakfast? For example, do you know where it was grown? Who grew it? Because, you know, the big thing, big food wouldn't work, right? So we're kind of like in a state of mystification. Where it, and it's too complicated to know that my oatmeal, the oats were grown where, by who, I mean really, you would be researching your breakfast for a while. So, I fully believe, right, that, that kind of lack of, um, awareness is, This is going to sound so conspiratorial, but it is part of mystification and it's kind of like a known thing and the remedy to that is clear thinking, critical consciousness as we've all been talking about. You too. Seeing reality clearly.

Speaker 6 35:24

Clear

Speaker 2 35:24

thinking. That's the goal of meditation, seeing reality clearly. So yeah, that was really important pro and thank you. Yeah.

Speaker 35:33

Yeah. and my question is, because you've been working with different healthcare professionals, and teaching reiki, do you see any unique patterns of stress or disease that have come about because of, societal gender pressures for women?

Speaker 2 35:50

I would say, today, these, this unique pattern could be summed up in this message. And the message is, you're never good enough just the way you are. You're not okay just the way you are. And when you take that message, for women, Couple that with capitalism, it results in a kind of a sick, restless, relentless pursuit of doing what needs to be done to be acceptable. So, not to be too adventurous, like your photo, but to be nice. Not to burst out with joy, but to make oneself acceptable. To smell better, to look better. And actually, being perfect would be the best of all, right? And there's a sense deep inside that we're kind of doing this to stay safe. And if you don't call that pressure and stress, I don't know what is. And I think the unique burden, if you will, that women carry is this, is that message, unless they have the courage and collective support to resist those pervasive messages. And indeed, all kinds of resistance and protest is happening in the lives of women across the globe, don't get me wrong, but there is an undercurrent of, I better prepare my daughter, I better talk about this with my sister, right? Right. So, um, And then beyond that, that message, um, beyond that message of you're not okay the way you are, are the gender expectations that we internalize about our roles and our identity. And here I just will say there's no such thing as A woman. There are elite women, there are poor women, there are undocumented women, there are elder women, there are women of color, there are women with different abilities, queer women, neurotypical women, neurodiverse women, right, indigenous women, women in prisons, and women in the C suite. So, there's not one American woman, and there's not one El Salvador woman. It just doesn't work that way. Nevertheless, the next unique pattern of stress and disease that emerges in women's body, bodies as a direct result of violence. Violence against women, the intense misogyny behind it, reach all women. Even though that violence is the most silenced. And the least condemned, especially and even in war. So fear almost always lives somewhere inside women's bodies and minds. And it poisons the mind and the body. Have you heard that scenario? Like, I hike in the woods a lot. And, um, you know, the woman's out walking or hiking or camping in the woods. And what does she ask? She's asked, would you prefer to encounter a bear? Or a unfamiliar man in the woods, and every time they choose the bear. Now come on, that learned fear and that anticipation of male violence leaves this nervous system hyper arousal, right? And now the context of, at least here, I'm in the U. S., this dramatic constriction of women's rights. Immigrant women, women of color, poor women, queer, and trans women, we are back to this reactionary ideology that claims that women's rights, reproductive rights, are destroying family structure and indeed the nation. So now attacks on women include reducing and preventing access to healthcare, a complete denial of reproductive justice, especially for some women more than others. And that fear, that helplessness and outrage are a horrible consequence. And add to the sense of kind of being lost to ourselves and, you know, maybe practices like Joshen Kokyu Ho can be particularly helpful in bringing some stability and solidity, reorienting to coming home and resting within ourselves, instead of being lost to ourselves. Yeah, yeah, a lot of hurt there. There's a lot of suffering. I mean, I'm sure even though you're not in the US, Bronwyn, you know what's been going on. Yeah,

Speaker 41:17

you're not too different to be honest. Yeah, similar societies. I understand what the stresses are and does that come out in specific illnesses,

Speaker 2 41:27

I don't know if I have the, um, professionalism to answer that, but we know that stress, right, this kind of stress and fear and this kind of state of, Nervous system arousal increases inflammation, and we know that inflammation is at the root of lots of chronic diseases, right? Um, and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So Reiki practice as you know, one of Herbert Benson's are our relaxation response that, you know, settles the nervous system. I mean, the things we can do with our practice, right? Deactivate the hypothalamus pituitary adrenal axis, right? Everyone talks about the shift of the nervous system from, um, Into parasympathetic, from sympathetic to parasympathetic mode, where all our systems are just going to operate and function better, of systems of the body, you know, so that we can make the other systems function better, right? Yeah, right. Um, yeah, so I would say that, um, yeah, that's how I would answer that question. And also, maybe to add one thing to that, because, you know, I was teaching in the public health department at Simmons, and that health is not here. It doesn't like stand alone. Water is health or poor health. Food is health or poor health. Parenting is health or poor health. The environment is health or poor health, right? Transportation, housing, education, livelihood, opportunity, power, privilege, equality, inequality, laws, customs. Ideologies bring health or poor health. Gender roles bring health or policies bring health. One's neighborhood brings health or poor health. So, you know, really we're talking no silos.

Speaker 43:46

If there's no recognition of what is actually going on, if there is this unawareness, then there is no help.

Speaker 2 43:55

That's right. That's waking up to where causality is. I love that. Yes, yes, yes. Or else you think it's your fault, or their, their fault, and blah, blah, blah. No. Right. So we're kind of back to that, you know,

Speaker 3 44:15

kind of

Speaker 2 44:17

clawing our way through the justification to what is really happening here. The causes and conditions. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4 44:31

I am just so inspired by this conversation. So thank you so much for sharing your perspective, Elisa, a few thoughts I wanted to share and reflection about that is, well, one of my clients, so one of my clients was a person of color and, and she was an older woman and she told me God awful stories of how she's been treated. by people in society, uh, because of her Puerto Rican descent. And I thought, like, it was such a big aha moment for me when I realized that this woman could never be healed without healing the world as well. And it just brought it all home, like how when we create kinder communities and safe places, For people to work through the trauma that they've been through, like how much an oasis that is for, I mean, we're all white women in this perspective, but the effects of what you're talking about are magnified, like a hundred, a thousand times fold by women of color. Um, and, um, anyway, so I just, I guess I wanted to reflect on that and how, how that was such a transformative moment for me. And. And then also in my own personal journey, my kids are five and seven, and I have been going through this whole cycle of trying to have a small business and being a mom and, um, juggling all the hats, a householder, a wife, all of these different things. And, um, I'm 43 and I've hit perimenopause and my periods are irregular and I attribute that to this chronic, like high level stress that I have been under. And my body has now told me a different message. Like it is, it is literally given me this smoke signal thing. Oh, hold on. And I think of so many women I know who are in the same boat as mothers, you know, juggling a new reality where we're, you know, not only supposed to do all the work of mothering, but also earn a, you know, an income for our household. And, um, Oh, I just, um. It just, it's, it's an epidemic of how much stress our body holds and it does show up in our health. And there's so many different facets of health, so I'm just so grateful that you mentioned all of that. Um, I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about your book though, and share with us a little bit. And, um, also, you know, as we, as you talk about wellness equity. You know, what barriers have you seen and observed that specifically prevent women from accessing practices such as Reiki or other mind, body healing practices? And how can we address those barriers? Um, we, we did a whole, um, special events with the Reiki Raise University on breaking down barriers for women. So it just seems such a cool conversation, too. We could just so much we want to to break down those walls. So we'd love to hear from you what you suggest.

Speaker 2 47:31

Thank you. for sharing those stories, too, by the way. Those truths was really important to me. Thank you. So here, I think the wellness equity Is, uh, also for, um, the, the many women's. That, you know, when I mentioned elder women, women in prisons, undocumented women, elite women, poor women, women of color, et cetera, I think the barriers are indeed a lie for it. for many, many, many, many people. I mean, stating the obvious, we're an incredibly unequal society, right? And so it's, it's not such a surprise that that inequality or that in, in the inequity extends to mind, body wellness practice. I mean, the wellness industrial complex got its name for a reason. Do you use that term wellness industrial complex? Around, I'll use that one.

Speaker 5 48:37

Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've used it in and heard it. I think it's a useful analogy and, and truth in it.

Speaker 2 48:44

Wouldn't you say, am I correct? Uh, Michaela in case Bronwyn doesn't know, doesn't hear it over there. The kind of Gwyneth Paltrow universe of very expensive, right? A spa kind of a thing. Okay. So that is out of reach. It can be out of reach because of finances. Geographic location, transportation, taking time off from paid work and the unpaid work, family responsibilities, child care, elder care, sick care. So I mean, the barriers are significant, but kind of obvious. So I go right to solutions. In fact, I work with one of my students at Simmons University on this very thing. And I'm going to try to give the essence of possible solutions because I think we run out of time soon. So, and this is being done with in indigenous communities, uh, community, all the communities and that is to bring out talk about women, though, to bring mind body practices. To where women already are, workplaces, places of worship, food markets, child care centers, libraries, community centers, senior centers, prisons, schools, laundromats, I mean, where women are, you know what I mean? And then, once in those places, to use existing assets of women who inhabit those spaces. For them to facilitate mind body healing practices. Yeah, maybe they need a little bit of training, fine. Then we need to deal with this whole monetary thing. And so, to allow both monetary and non monetary exchanges that focus on communal economics. Where those women are, right? So the focus was on like, local community well being is the focus of development, right? The communal economics, if you will, right? So it sounds so simple, why aren't we doing it? Um, But it is being done. So the work I did at Simmons was actually, um, involved with mindfulness practices, because I'm also a mindfulness teacher, and, um, finding out that the black church is a place where this is happening. And, you know, the idea that you're not going to have any kind of meeting at the church without some eating as one of the women told me, so you make it a community event and people are bringing food and sharing food. The kids are running around and then this child care, right? Right. And then women are engaging actually in mindfulness. Uh, kind of MSBR, a lot of it was non mindfulness based stress reduction, stress style. So I hope that, you know, opens the door to, um, an orientation towards solution for wellness equity. And it wasn't even like rocket science, right? Sometimes it's the obvious that we miss.

Speaker 5 52:31

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, Reiki is such a, and, and mindfulness, such a beautiful vehicle for that. You know, we talk so often about the simplicity of it, the elegance of it, the accessibility of it. It's something we can, you know, once we learn it, we carry it with us. We don't need anything else, but our own breath and attention. Um, and so, you know, it's such a, a beautiful vehicle for an equity process and to really infuse into all of these aspects of life as you're, For sure. Describing the way in which, you know, when we ask the question of how can we get this into more people's hands, we automatically have to address where are the people who's going to take care of the kids. What else is happening at the same time that this is happening? And how can we make those a blend rather than in conflict with each other? And so these. You know, ways of solving cascades of what might seem like barriers actually become these points of connection. And I think you started us there, right? Of reconnecting on so many different levels, obviously, with ourselves, with each other, with social structures that are generative rather than degenerative, it's like it all can flow from this simple question of how do we get this to more people so that they have it together. for themselves and don't have to rely on on it coming from somewhere else. So I love that so much. And, um, you talked a little bit before about, you know, practices that, um, or, you know, generally speaking, this, this idea of gender expectation and kind of how Reiki can help us to unlearn that. And I wonder if you could share maybe a specific example or two of how Reiki practices have helped women that you've worked with, you know, either in your own experience. S personally with your own practice or in people that you've worked with, you know, maybe tell us a story about the way in which, um, you know, these practices can help women develop what you call critical consciousness about these gender expectations, um, that affect their health.

Speaker 2 54:26

Okay, let me try this one. It's a circle of things. It's related to survivors of, we can call it domestic violence. So there's a Center for Violence Prevention and Recovery at a hospital in Boston. And there's also support groups, and you know, their location is secret, right? And when I, I was asked to, in terms of the Center for Violence Prevention and Recovery, I was asked to actually train survivors. In self Reiki practices, so teach Hara breathing and why precepts and then usually one thing, probably Joshin Kokuho would be the one, right? And so if I, let's say, you know, it was like an entire long day. And that would be interspersed with kind of like, not like PowerPoint presentations, but, you know, a little bit more didactic. Um, critical consciousness, causality kind of stuff that we talked about, and mystification, right? And cawing your way through the structures. And then, you know, I was asked to go to provide Reiki treatments at a support group for violence, domestic violence, partner violence, um, and I said, you know what? You know, you can, you know, I can come there and people can lie on the table or I can teach mind body practices based in Reiki and mindfulness so that they have it for themselves. Because if I come in and do this, it was going to be a one shot. I'm like, I just. Don't anymore. I'm just not like there anymore. So, I taught these mind body skills based in mindfulness and Reiki to the group of people, including, you know, you know, if it's a social worker, social workers live in both places, the social workers and the interns, right? You know, and, um, I said, you know, does anyone else work here? And they said, well, there's this staff person and the maintenance person. So, they have to come too. They are included and um, so and I think that's an important thing for the wellness equity is that who else is working in the church, right? Who else is working in the library? And it's not like they're forced to come, but they're invited, you know? So that has been like where I'm at now. And I teach hands on. I don't feel like you need anything special for that. So it might be Hara breathing with hands on. Yeah, so that's what I'm really now wanting to do only, really, is mind, body practice sessions with groups. I've done it at, um, a kind of a, a sad elder care setting, you know, I mean, the, the place was kind of sad and, um, I have to say it wasn't, you know. a beautiful place. It was in a tough neighborhood in Boston. And, um, I went week after week after week after week. And then COVID happened and everything changed. But, um, that meant a lot to me. Yeah. So that's what I'm really, um, you know, that not saying everyone has to do it, but putting the healing back into people's hands. That's a beautiful example in the story. Thank you so much. Thank you. And, you know, you can do that and make a living at it. You know, you can do both. I'm not sure you can do that raising a five and a seven year old, right? I wasn't raising a five and a seven year older at that point. Yeah,

Speaker 4 58:54

but no, I think that I, we really, I love, cause I've been shifting into mentorship and I really want people, practitioners to get out of the idea that they have to find clients. Like they can actually go and offer services like Reiki into these places and, and, and then they don't have to, you don't have to, and then I think there's a lot of conflict. So some practitioners around, well, I serve mostly women where most Reiki practitioners are like, By far, the largest majority are women, and we serve women in our practices, like, you know, most of my clients are women, and we are very sensitive to the fact that most women can't afford. Our, our, our prices, you know, and those are the prices that we need to charge for it to be sustainable for us and it's beyond just the pricing. It's also the accessibility piece. Like, is there, is there enough freedom in people's life to, to, um, To say that I I need the self care for myself. Can I can I allocate some funds of my household or can I take time from work to do this? Um, so there's those pieces, which I'm sure you're sensitive to. And, um, but I love the idea, but I love the idea of bringing Reiki to where people already are. And Using resources that people don't know that might be available to them, like whether it be like an addiction recovery center or a wellness center or a senior center and, and asking to get paid for your time, but being willing to serve people, groups of people at the same time can really bypass a lot of the hiccups that I think so many practitioners of Reiki are facing right now. So thank you for sharing that.

Speaker 2 1:00:41

Thank you. That was that's it beautifully said, and I think that. The, it always has bothered me that the people that come and see me largely have the privilege to prioritize that and it has always bugged me, you know, yeah. On the other hand, we can all have our sliding scales. You know, people can get take a subway to get to where I am so they don't even have to have a car. Um, anyway. Yeah.

Speaker 4 1:01:14

Yeah. There's lots of ways to work around it. But I think being more creative and recognizing there's, um, you know, seeking, seeking, uh, to work with institutions that are there geared towards helping people. Um, I think that there's a natural interplay there. So.

Speaker 2 1:01:33

And to learn to do that outreach, it's a little scary. Um, so maybe partner with somebody and reach out, reach out first to places where you know who the gatekeepers are. Yeah.

Speaker 1:01:53

I love these solutions. beginning solutions. At least just before we finish, you told us where we came from. So this seed. Place and possibly, a life that was more equitable, between men and women. Can you see us moving into that space from this world that we're in now?

Speaker 2 1:02:22

Wow. Well, when I hear from everyone, I hope, but immediately came to my mind though. And I don't even know if it would, if it's on the right track, but decentralized. Yeah.

Speaker 1:02:49

I was thinking that space. Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:02:53

Facing out. Yeah. Decentralized. If I think of the hunter and gatherer model, which is kind of how we raised our children, using the hunters and gatherers as models, this could be, yeah. I don't think I am able to make that happen, but that's what comes to mind.

Speaker 5 1:03:21

That one just ended on a banger over here.

Speaker 1:03:24

I can see the system of Reiki being a part of that world. Absolutely. That idea of there not being just financial ledgers, but there being ledgers of equality. Yeah.

Speaker 5 1:03:41

I, I wanna take a crack at answering that Bronwyn and say Absolutely. And that, I think that actually. This is a, this is a feeling I've had for a long time, and I'm working in collaboration with a number of people who feel this way as well, that, that the levels of disruption that we've experienced over the past five years, particularly beginning with COVID, but rippling back before that. Um, that kind of fracturing of the structure that we've all come to just assume is normal and will always be normal is the opportunity to retool and completely agree with you, at least that decentralizing doing that in our communities, you know, really asking ourselves, what is my sphere of influence? Really? Right? Maybe it's my family and that's it. But probably it's also rippling into the community, wherever you touch the community is your sphere of influence, right? You don't have to have positional authority or power or leadership. You are a leader in wherever your sphere of influence is. Some people's spheres of influence are quite wide, right? But whatever that, that sphere is, you know, asking these questions of what is the alternative to this way of doing things. All right, because those ways of doing things are crumbling already. We already have to find new solutions. And so if we can take leadership in how those look in our communities and our families and our spheres of influence, then that ripples outward, right? Because it's very easy to say, well, those are big global economic questions. I couldn't possibly solve that. Right. But could you manage your household a little bit differently? Could you barter with neighbors for some stuff? You know, could you, could you be a little bit, um, you know, think about things a little bit more differently in the small places where you are? So, yeah, for me, Bronwyn, the answer to that question is absolutely. And that was the time.

Speaker 4 1:05:30

That was strong. Bring the torch. Let's burn it down. I have, um, a course that I'm introducing in 2025 and I have just debated, I have just um, just oscillated so much on the title of this course. I know what the title is, but it just has this hesitancy about presenting it. Because there's a lot of vulnerability with it. But it's moving from Babylon to Avalon. And it's this like, notion of like, really like Babylon is this unhealthy, unhealed. Part of ourselves and society and like, how do we move into a kinder, softer way of being that really does allow us to bring the fullness of our true self. And, um, I'm definitely inspired by one of the books that like, you know, was such a big part of my spiritual journey was Mists of Avalon, but it's like this. idea that like, you know, but we live in this just incredibly complex world and my own spiritual journey has been one of moving towards Babylon and you look at the Japanese historic and cultural influences on Reiki. There's this notion of moving towards enlightenment and that there's like so many different flavors of way of living. As we liberate ourselves, like, there's this whole different world that opens up around us, and when we, you know, get out of victim consciousness and enter what you're talking about, critical consciousness, you know, it's like, like our world shifts and changes, and we'll see that manifest in our lives, and, um, but one of the reasons why I struggled naming that is just that so much of, um, That can be caught up in judgment as well, because we have to bring compassion to the places where we're still stuck in, in these constructs and these realities. And, um, here comes my cat, but, um, yeah, that, that there's just so much possibility here. And, and really, it only starts with ourselves. Like you really can only start there. Like you can't do any sort of healing work. Uh, you can't help anybody else if you're not willing to help yourself. And I really getting that. Um, and I, I think it personally starts with financial equity. Like you really have to get, uh, like a centered knowing about your own financial life, uh, build a stronger financial foundation for yourself so that you can disconnect from these systems. That, um, cause you so much disparity.

Speaker 2 1:08:03

Possibilities. Thank you for, for those.

Speaker 4 1:08:08

Oh my gosh. Well, at least tell us what is the name of your book? Um, and how can our readers, uh, or listeners find it?

Speaker 2 1:08:17

It is Reiki, a self practice to live in peace with self and others. And it is co authored by me and Nancy Spence. Okay. Here it is. Thank you for asking.

Speaker 4 1:08:36

Absolutely. And well, thank you so much for being a part of our podcast today and sharing your wonderful perspective and your work, lifelong work on empowering women. And we truly appreciate it. And hopefully you can come back and talk with us again soon.

Speaker 2 1:08:53

Thank you. I feel a little close. To you three right now. I appreciate that. Appreciate you,

Speaker 4 1:09:04

So thank you all so very much for listening to our series on women, health and, uh, the system of breaking and how it supports us. Thank you all so much for being here and we'll see you again. Bye. Thank you.