RWP Episode 199: Is the Reiki community gatekeeping itself to death?

In this episode of the Reiki Women Podcast, Carrie Varela and Bronwen Logan explore one of the most heated conversations in the Reiki world:

✨ Tradition vs accessibility
✨ Western vs Japanese approaches
✨ Certified vs self-taught practitioners

Is the system of Reiki being protected… or policed?

We unpack what “gatekeeping” really means and why this conversation matters right now. From fast online certifications to historical training methods, we explore how the system of Reiki has evolved — and what honesty and integrity look like in modern practice.

In this episode, we discuss:
• Should the system of Reiki be widely available or carefully transmitted?
• Do certificates still mean anything in an unregulated industry?
• The origins of the term “Reiki Master.”
• The difference between Reiki energy and the system of Reiki
• Why “lineage wars” and “higher vibration” claims harm the community
• How can we balance accessibility, integrity, and openness

If you care about the future of the system of Reiki, this is a conversation you don’t want to miss.

💛 Support the Reiki Women Podcast
Help us continue creating thoughtful, honest conversations in 2026:
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-reiki-women-podcast-in-2026

👉 Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and share to help more people discover the show.

⏱️ Episode Chapters
00:00 Embodiment Over Speed
03:12 Podcast Setup And Topic
04:14 What Gatekeeping Means
05:14 How the system of Reiki Was Taught
07:49 Access Versus Guidance
08:33 Reiki Master Term Origins
14:17 Different Paths For Students
18:20 We Are Reiki
20:35 Gateway Not Gatekeeping
23:38 Certificates And Regulation
28:05 Jikiden Reiki Standards
32:34 Commitment Without Policing
34:37 Lineage Wars And Vibration Claims
38:50 Wrap Up And Support The Show

#Reiki #ReikiPodcast #EnergyHealing #SpiritualPodcast #ReikiTraining


--
About the Podcast
Reiki Women Podcast shares the voices of women-identified Reiki practitioners from around the world. Through stories of healing, lineage, and spiritual practice, we explore the culture and community of Reiki practice.

Join hosts Bronwen Logan, Carrie Varela, and Michaela Daystar as they reflect on the system of Reiki and the women who shape its path.

Meet the Hosts
🌿 Bronwen Logan — @reikiwithbronwen
🌿 Carrie Varela — @reikihealingsociety
🌿 Michaela Daystar — @heartscapes.insight

🎧 Listen on Spotify, YouTube, and your favorite podcast platforms
💛 Support us on BuzzSprout: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2217494/supporters/new

📲 Join our Facebook group: facebook.com/reikiwomenpodcasts/groups

#ReikiHealing #WomenInReiki #ReikiPodcast #ReikiLineage #ReikiCommunity #SpiritualPractice

Transcript

0:00

I've heard of all kinds of different courses out there, like where people learn Reiki one and three in one day, and it was just like, boom, boom, boom. So it's not how you learn, it's how you embody the practice, right? That's right. And, and the embodiment doesn't happen in one sitting. It happens over practice. And so I think you're really right. You know that in the Reiki community, we're seeking to find our footing. We know how it was taught previously. I mean, there's a lot of historical information about how it was taught previously, but really we need to be asking ourselves, how do we wanna teach it today? And especially as a teacher, we need to be aware of these things. The fact that yes, there were symbols and mantras added at some point, there was hands on healing at some point. There were meditation techniques using the breath. At some point there's a reiju, the spiritual blessing that occurs between a teacher and a student at some point. We have these different things that we need to be working with, not all of them at once. But learning them and finding which of these elements you're attracted to, and that really brings you into that spiritual alignment with Reiki. So that remembrance of what reiki is. We have this system, so that definition between Reiki, the word, maybe meaning spiritual energy, if that works for you. There's different ways we can translate that. And then the system of Reiki, so the different practices that we do to bring us into that remembrance of what Reiki is in us and around us. Hello and welcome back to the Reiki Women podcast. Today I'm here with a lovely Bronwen Logan, and our dear friend, Michaela Daystar. Well. Mercury is supposedly out of French Ade, but we're having Mercury and French ADE issues on the podcast. We have not been able to meet for the last couple weeks because one of us has had some sort of internet set shortage, and now that's landing on Michaela this week, which is just kind of silly. So it's just you and I, Bronwen, and we're gonna have a little chat. Yay. been missing our chats, and been missing all of you listening to our chats. but we had a little topic that kind of, circulated and, you know, came up to the surface for us today about Reiki and gatekeeping. And if there is something to be said about the Reiki keeping, Reiki community gatekeeping itself, are we doing that in Bronwen? I'll hand it over to you. Yeah. I mean, what is gatekeeping? Yes. It's a word that we throw around, but, I did look it up. It means controlling who gets access to something. And I think that's a really interesting thing to think about within the system of Reiki, because I'm, well, I guess for one, can anyone, can anyone study the system of Reiki? Well, according to Mikao Usui, it's for anyone and everyone, as long as you can learn. Yeah. So as long as you have the facility to learn, then it's there for you. so that is, that, that's a good thing to remember because I think we can get really particular about this subject. And do you know, I think it, it takes us back historically, doesn't it? It takes us back to, well, what is the system? How is it put together? Who is it for? Just said it's for everyone. but how do you learn? So we learn by going to a teacher. The system is currently broken up into, three, normally three, levels. we know that, for example, the association that existed and still exists in Japan today, that they would then break those, those levels up. So level one and two had different sort of, subheadings, under it. so you'd learn things as you'd go along. And then, Reiki three, Sheeran. So that's the mystery teachings that is there as a, for someone who's, who's very experienced with the practice and. I believe I had a chat with Michaela. you won't here Carrie for that one, but we had a chat about, I think Hiroshi Doi said something to the effect of that Shinpiden actually didn't really exist. And I can, I can see that because most of the teachings are all in level one and two. That's really where we get the meat and potatoes. I'm a vegetarian, what should we say? The lentils and potatoes in that? And you know, that's where all the information sits. And then we work with that. And then, you know, if you wanna call someone something after that, well you're free to. So that person who then passes that information on today, we'd call them a teacher, right. But it's very interesting. Carrie and I were just talking before about how it, how it used to work and for example, Chujiro Hayashi who was a student of Mikao Usui he used to teach over five afternoons consecutively, Reiki one and two. And I, I was talking to someone the other day and they were telling me they were horrified that they'd heard that someone had learned Reiki one and two together. And you know, I, I understand that. I understand that it's a lot to learn in a short period of time. But then if we think about that, then yeah, that's bit, that was way back in the, you know, in the 1930s with the system of Reiki. So we, we are having lots of circular experiences within the system, because people are always, it feels like Carrie, it feels like people are trying to find their feet. And that they're trying to find a way that can best express the teachings. And, whether gatekeeping has helped that or not, I'm not sure. What do you think? I, you know, personally, I think that there, gatekeeping is, is really not an issue within Reiki. I mean, Reiki is very accessible. Anybody can learn Reiki on Udemy for like $39. You can learn Reiki for free pretty much anywhere. If you, if you're determined, you could probably find some YouTube certifications, you know, for free, for little $0 and technically learn Reiki. So the knowledge of Reiki is, is accessible. Yeah. But what a teacher provides is instruction, is guidance, is support, is, you know, historically accurate information. you know, and, this is an interesting topic, but, so I wrote a blog recently why I no longer call myself a Reiki master. And I talk about, you know, the word Shihan, which is the Japanese word, and, for teach, you know, for the Reiki teacher and the role that they are. And, and really Shihan is teacher. It's not Reiki master, it's teacher, but there's a cultural context that's not being. Transcribed, which is that, you know, you learn through probably more than one opportunity with your teacher. You know, you learn over a period of time with your teacher. And, Hawayo Takata, who was a student of Chujiro Hayashi sensei, who you just mentioned, well anyways, Justin Stein kind of, responded to this question because, you know, Takada is likely, or, and Hayashi, Hayashi are probably the first ones to give the word Reiki master to the Reiki community. And, there was probably an interesting reason to do that. But what Justin Stein said was that, at that time, you know, Takada really considered Zen Buddhism, like a big influence on the system of Reiki and in Zen Buddhism to, to become a master of something in that language. And in that context meant that you studied with a person for a long period of time, like you really studied with them. And, and that was likely the relationship that Takada had, with Chujiro Hayashi. Yeah. Like she, and I guess Justin said that she sold her home, sold her home in Hawaii in order to get her Reiki three certification. And that Reiki three certification, Hayashi wasn't willing to just give it to her. She had to persist and persist and persist. It took her a lot of persistence to just get the Reiki one, certification. And then for the Reiki three, you know, involved a significant financial investment on her part. And then also that there's this role within the Japanese culture of like being a live-in apprentice and that she might have lived in his home for a period of time, you know, to continue studying or, you know, apprenticeship with him and his, clinic. And, you know, that's how her experience of Reiki was and how, you know, the depth of commitment that she took to become part of that practice. And so I think in, you know, not to fumble around too much, but you know, the Japanese culture isn't perfect and there is that kind of cultural context within the Japanese culture, but I don't think that much of that has translated in our Western adaptations of Reiki. and in fact it's been kind of the opposite. So, you know, Takada Sensei has, you know, had a policy of, only teaching Reiki three for $10,000 as a $10,000 commitment. And that was somewhat of her experience too, right? That she's kind of been sharing onto her students. And so in that context, I think gatekeeping. Is a fair term for it, but after Hayashi or, excuse me, Takada sensei's passing, it's become the complete opposite of that. People have lowered the price of teaching Reiki to just, you know, some, it's essentially free, you know, and, and made it so accessible that, you know, Reiki being taught over, you know, you know, over distance, you know, prerecorded courses and getting attunements through that and, and people coming for four hours and then, you know, people throwing Reiki certificates at them. And like, I've heard of all kinds of different courses out there, like where people learn Reiki one and three in one day, and it was just like, boom, boom, boom. So it's not how you learn, it's how you embody the practice, right? That's right. And, and the embodiment doesn't happen in one sitting. It happens over practice. And so I think you're really right. You know that in the Reiki community, we're seeking to find our footing. We know how it was taught previously. I mean, there's a lot of historical information about how it was taught previously, but really we need to be asking ourselves, how do we wanna teach it today? Yeah, I mean, I, thanks for bringing up a lot of that stuff, about Hawayo Takata. And the reason why, you know, she was the first westerner to, to teach Reiki. So interestingly, that she, that they used the terms master, I mean, that is the first time that it actually came across in, in that way. So we didn't have any other, perspective on that. And you can see then how that sort of. came through, but then when we started to question that, you know, that's where this is this thing of finding footing, you know, it's like, well, is that an appropriate term for what we are doing and, and how we work and for what we've done? And, you know, I think for paying $10,000, and doing a two day course or something like that, then I don't think that the term master is actually appropriate, to be honest. And I think what you were saying about, you know, apprenticing, so although Hayashi may have taught over those five consecutive afternoons, yeah. It's, it's taking into consideration what are we using this for? What are we doing? Yeah. And I think we can think that today and, with, with what's available out there as well. So there's gonna be all different levels of training and teaching and teachers, and that is just normal. That is life. And you are gonna be drawn to certain things at certain times in your life. So, for example, if I was alive in 1930 and I went and studied with Chujiro Hayashi, then I, I would've done that course, those, those five afternoons. And perhaps I absolutely loved it and I wanted to really get involved with him. He had a clinic, you could go and work in his clinic for him. He used to have two people working on a practitioner. Sorry, on a client and, people would come, come for these treatments and, and you would study with him. And we've seen in Hawayo Takata's diaries, her talking about today I learned this. Now I've learned that including learning shinpiden, so the mystery teachings. So, you know, it's this gradual learning. Oh, and the reason why he didn't wanna take her on why she had to be so persistent was because she was a westerner. I know she, she, she may have spoken Japanese, she may have looked Japanese, but she was born in a different country and brought up in a different culture. Yeah. Or, or, or two cultures. Yeah. So, I mean, there was that thing of not being totally, yeah, not totally Japanese and, and that, he must have found that a little difficult to begin with, but he must have absolutely loved her for the fact that he, he came, then he went from Japan, came to Hawaii, helped to set up her clinic. So that, that's an enormous thing to, To do for your student. Right. So, it is interesting, and I think some people would have just enjoyed doing the five consecutive afternoons with, Chujiro Hayashi and gone home and then enjoyed practicing on themselves or their family and just sitting with that and, and enjoying that and being, n not having to take it to some extraordinary length to become a teacher and, and, you know, really make it become their whole life. It could have just been a small part of their life. And, and that's okay too, so we can see that this practice doesn't have to be you. I know for some of us, yes. We love that and we are totally in that. And, you know, we, we see it as this spiritual practice. But we can also see it in, for some people it can be something else. And to be open to that. And this is also where gatekeeping might come into the conversation when we become a little bit too highfalutin and a little bit too, you know, precious about what we're doing. instead of thinking, well, you know what, that might just be what someone needs at this point. And that's okay. And it's not for me to say that that person teaching that course might not be, they may not be the best teacher on the planet, but you know what? Maybe someone got something outta that course that's really been helpful for them. It's not for me to judge that, and maybe if I look at my own experience, my first course that I did was not very good. Teacher wasn't great information, wasn't great. It was confusing. but I got something out of that and I got enough out of it for me to actually say, I wanna know more of this. And that was really exciting. So it's gonna be different for everyone because we're all different human beings with different experiences and there is a plethora of Reiki courses out there. And it just depends what you are looking for. And maybe you don't even know what you are looking for, but start somewhere and see how that goes. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. I, I love all that perspective, Bronwen and, You know, I, so I just think it's just hogwash when people say, you know, we're gate keeping Reiki because, you know, it's, it is so accessible and it's really open to all. Yeah. But I think what we're speaking to here is the concept of Reiki. Yeah. Reiki energy is, is, it's actually very independent from the teacher. So what you said is, you know, I had this course and maybe the teacher didn't really teach very well, but I feel that spiritual connection, I, I created that, or that, that happened for me internally in the course. And so, and that's probably what inspired you to keep going, you know? Mm-hmm. Absolutely. hmm. Yeah. And then, so in yoga there's this mantra that's, I am, a smi and it means I am the universe. And another way of saying that is, you know, that we are intrinsically interconnected to. Universal law, consciousness, life, life force, all of these things. And we're connected to that, whether we know it or not, you know, whether we know we're working with that or not, it's just part of ourselves, right? And so that's where I think people are getting hung up on this gatekeeping pieces. Like, oh, you don't, you know, and we've speak a lot about that in this perspective, the perspective that we share about Reiki is that we are Reiki, you know, we are Reiki and Reiki is a part of us. So no teacher can really teach you that, but they can point you in the direction of, of how to work with that on a deeper level, how to be more conscious about that connection. And that's what I think a lot of the Reiki help, Reiki teachings. And in a course that you should feel, that you should feel this deeper connection to the universe and in, that. Feel more part, more consciously part of what you're manifesting, creating in your life. And, so, but nobody can teach you that. It's, it's really you becoming one with that. And that's the journey through Reiki one through three is, is really, is, is entering that. And so when there's, it's not a gatekeeping, but there's a gateway, you know, and you can't really learn Reiki. By being self-taught, in my opinion, you know, you have to actually go through the gateway. You actually have to take on the skills, the knowledge, understand what this modality, this healing system is what it does, you know, it's history, the lineage, feel connected and be, you know, receive that initiation to the lineage. All of that is an important part of it. So if, if you feel like you're self-taught with Reiki, I think really what you're saying there is you're self-taught with energy work, like you feel connected to energetic healing. but you, you do need to go through that gateway. You need somebody to teach you these skills, and then from there you can take it to whatever, into whatever space feels aligned with your life. what do you think about that, Bronwen? Yeah, I totally agree. you know, I, I always have felt a little frustrated, admittedly. Hmm. When people are like, oh yeah, I do Reiki. I never learned it, but I do Reiki. It's like, well, I, I dunno what that means. I dunno what that means. So, you know, it's like me saying that I, I don't know that I, I can do aikido or judo or, and I can't do those things. Right. so, yes, you need to, you need to learn the practices. And, that's why when I first started, you know, it was very important to really define in my mind what the system was made up of. So what, what was it that Usui, The founder wanted us to know to, to practice with what, what was, what were these different things. And especially as a teacher, we need to be aware of these, these things. So, you know, the fact that yes, there's, there were symbols and mantras added at some point there was hands on healing at some point. There were meditation techniques using the breath. At some point there's a reiju, the spiritual blessing that, that occurs between a teacher and a student at some point. So, you know, we, we have these different things that we, we need to be working with, not all of them at, at, at once. But learning them and finding which of these elements you're attracted to, and that really brings you into that spiritual alignment with Reiki. So that remembrance of what. Reiki is. Yeah. so we have this system, so that definition between Reiki, the word, maybe meaning spiritual energy, if that works for you. there's different ways we can translate that. And then the system of Reiki, so the different practices that we do to, to bring us into that remembrance of what Reiki is in us and around us. So yeah, self-taught doesn't work with me, but certification is another totally different subject really, isn't it? I mean, as you say, you could go to Udemy and get a $39, I guess, Reiki three certificate, do Reiki one, two, and three. I mean, what, what does that mean? It means absolutely nothing. So, and I could do a really shit course and I could still get certificates from a person. Right. So I mean, oh, I could do a really great course and I could get certificates from a person. The certification element has, has lost a lot of its power for me. I, I really feel like what we were talking about at the beginning, this idea that in Reiki one and two, so if I just clump them together for a moment, this idea that these are the teachings in a way, and then what happens from that? And what happens from that is we need to practice, we need to work and use those teachings and develop them in ourselves. And if we wanna become a teacher, well there's pathways for that. But really just looking at what. Does this encapsulate what, what, what, what are, what do the teachings hold? And, and working with that and, and learning those elements. And whether that's attached to a certificate or not, I don't really care, to be honest. So it's, it's very much about, learning and, possibly if, if, if things were really strict and there was a lot of gatekeeping, then you know, there would be, you have to do this. Excuse me, you have to do this for Reiki one. You have to do this for Reiki two, you have to do this for Reiki three. But as we know, this is a very, within the system of Reiki, there is no regulation. So it's a very mm, diverse world, and there's lots of people doing lots of different things. Therefore, that idea of certification has sort of lost its power, I believe. Hmm mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. I think the idea of a certification within Reiki, unfortunately is kind of a joke. And it shouldn't be, you know, I mean, it would be nice if that any certificate actually meant something, you know, I mean, I know I really got frustrated about that within yoga. you know, I'd spend thousands of dollars to get, you know, a 500 hour certification, and then I bring my certificate back, you know, to the studios that I taught at and be like, Hey, you know, I just learned all of this. Can I get, you know, more money per class that I teach? And they're like, no. You know, and like, you know, the only thing that will get you more money for teaching is more students, more butts on mats and you know, that. So it felt very frustrating, you know? Mm. It's like I could build up myself as a teacher as much as I wanted, but I wasn't supported to, Yeah, to get any sort of reasonable return on my investment. you know, other than just, you know, do the work as show up and be a good teacher and do my best that, which I did all the time. That's why I'm still teaching probably. But, you know, within Reiki, I mean, I think it's unfortunate that there's not a more, you know, stringent certification process or some sort of structure to offer a certificate so that that certificate means something, you know, that maybe there's a standard of ethics that's, given, or a certifying body. some of those things can be very helpful to bring Reiki into, you know, western institutions or medical institutions. Yeah, it would help integrating medicine, so there might be some good reason for that, but they just thought that would not what we have right now. it feels like the horse is bolted a little bit, I have to say. Possibly the or. Yeah. Yeah. Meaning that it's, it's been going on for quite a long time that it's gotten to this point. So it would be hard to regulate, I think. But then, but then I guess we could have regulated and non-regulated. Right. Right, right. and, you know, we, you'd be practitioner's choice whether or not they wanted to follow through with that or not. I mean, I think eventually Reiki will probably move in that direction. there's a lot of people who are very against any sort of certi certification with Reiki trainings. I'm not one of them, so I'll just say my perspective and just leave it at that and drop that on the table. But, You know, in Jikiden Reiki, which I think is interesting, and Jikiden Reiki is a really unique lineage where they do gatekeep. You know, they, not in the sense that like you can't take the course for any reason, but they gatekeep because they don't allow any online courses at, at all whatsoever. It's all in person. So, you know, you'd have to travel to the teacher if you don't have one in your area, which there aren't a whole lot of den teachers out there. and then, you know, to after either the Okuden or even Reiki one certification, the should and certification, in order to call yourself a practitioner and be like registered as a practitioner within their lineage, you have to log 125 hours of offering Reiki treatments. So I am that. And it took me a long time, even though I had already had like my practice up and running. it took me about a year to log that many hours. like direct, you know, in-person, Reiki sessions with folks. and so I think of like somebody who's just starting out as a practitioner, it, it would've probably taken them a lot longer to get those hours and it would've been a real hurdle for them to, you know, get through, to be able to take. So you have to take, you have to log those hours to take Reiki three, and then if you wanna become a teacher, there's also additional, I would say, not gatekeeping, but again, hurdles that you have to overcome. So like, you can't just go out and teach Reiki three after you've taken Reiki three. Like you have to teach Reiki one, you have to apprentice with the teacher for many trainings. Reiki one and two and very few teachers out there have the capacity to teach Reiki three. So it's just, that's, and that's a Japanese lineage, right? So there's like, that's kind of, I think a more. Understanding of how the tradition of Reiki could be held within a more Japanese perspective, perhaps? I don't know. I think they've developed that concept themselves. I don't think that's how they were necessarily taught originally. Mrs. Yamaguchi, you know, I don't think that was how she was taught. In fact, she was taught to do the reiju when she was a level two student, if I remember correctly. because they needed more people doing the reiju at, at this group. So they just taught it and said, here, can you give us a hand? You know? So I mean, it's, it is, it's, interesting that, you know, I'm not against developing systems that, that, work for, you know, that, that give, that give the system of Reiki more, what's the word, like. Not kudos, but you know, it gives it a better status than, than, you know, than doing Reiki one, two, and three on Emmi, for example. Yeah. So, I, I think it's great and I think regulation could be a really helpful thing for a lot of people. and as long as there are varieties of that possibly, because one thing that we don't want is for everything to get put into one direction that actually possibly, you know, that something that says that we can't practice unless we do what this person says. I don't think that would be a particularly helpful, way for the system to go because of where we are at present. And, if we look back at what Yasui did, it would seem that, you know, that the founder had, different practices and different ways of teaching. Of course it was his thing, so he could do whatever he wanted, but you know, that he would look at a student and think, well, this, this will work for you and for another student. Well this will work for you. So, that is a totally different way of, that's definitely very not regulated and, yeah. Yeah. And I'm not saying that that way is right. You know, I'm not saying anyway, it's just how it is, you know? Yeah. But like, you know, so for me, I feel like there, first of all, that like, you know, a gatekeeping is someone that's like, you get in and you don't, right. That's right. And I don't think that that's happening within Reiki personally. Like, I'm not turning away any. A student of mine saying, I don't think Reiki is right for you. You know, like I am opening that door to anybody who wants it. And that's really my true, I mean, when I think about what Reiki is, I think of it as a gift that is open to anybody who wants to receive it. That's interesting. 'cause actually, you know, I just, I, this year I've started my Shinpiden plus course and, I asked people to apply for it, just thinking about gatekeeping. So the idea behind applying for something is that they actually have to check all these boxes, which are commitments, right? Mm-hmm. So they commit to this, that, and the other. Right? So, and, and these are things that you commit to before you start a course. It's not saying you can't start a course, it's just saying, is this what you, what you are looking for? Is this something that you think that you'll get something out of? Because the last thing is you want, you don't want people doing courses that they, especially something that is, mine's partially online and, and in person. So, you know, if people are doing like online stuff and they go, I can't be bothered anymore. I have done that a lot myself. Right? I have started courses and then not gone further. So, you know, you really want people to commit to things and I, that's not gatekeeping, that is just, getting people to think about what it is they want and Oh, yeah. being more self-assured of that. Yeah. Oh yeah. And I would never think of that as, it's just, it's about setting expectations and commitments, you know, to the, the process which, you know, I'm not sure how long your Shinpiden plus container is, but you know, it's important, you know, to. Not only have the energy at the beginning, but you know, be committed to the whole process and the journey. Yeah. so I, you know, I, I think we can welcome a lot of diverse perspectives here. and that there's different ways of thinking about it and, and certainly our own experience of learning Reiki probably informs how we learned and our experience of Reiki as in general as a culture within Reiki, but also, you know, if you're a teacher, informs how you wanna show up as a teacher too. So, thanks so much for talking about this with me. Bronwen, any other final thoughts before we wrap up? You know, I was just thinking about the topic. The subject is the Reiki community gate keeping itself to death. And, underneath that there is this, this word lineage wars. And, we didn't really, did we talk about that? Well, not really, but I mean, you know, I. That's the last thing, that's the last place we wanna be. So, especially No wars. No wars. And I do think there is a place for, for probably everything, you know, as long as people are aware of what that thing is. So, you know, honesty and, that we are at no matter where we are in our lives, that there's something there for us within the system of Reiki that we could find that will support us. And, that might be all we need. Or maybe we wanna go on and learn some more things. but I think that, I've always said I don't wanna be the Reiki police. mm-hmm. So I, I, I appreciate the fact that, Yeah, that, that the system of Reiki is out there in all sorts of permutations and variations and, that it's open. Mm-hmm. I love that. And thanks for bringing that in, because I think sometimes a lot of people out there are like, Ooh, is like my certification enough? Or is it be, is there ones that are better or worse than, or whatever. But I actually really love how you language it, in the way you've taught me Reiki, and it was a game changer for me, but distinguishing between the system of Reiki and Reiki itself. So Reiki being the spiritual energy that we're tapping into, and then the system of Reiki is a system of practices that help us understand that. So within a Reiki course, depending on what kind of diverse training you take, you're going to be learning different aspects of the system of Reiki and, and they might have more additions or less, or. Whatever. but the, the Reiki is the same. You know, it doesn't really matter what lineage you study and, and who your teacher is. As long as you have that authentic experience and a spiritual connection, then, you know, that's Reiki. And so I never wanna be like, Reiki is better than my Reiki, or, you know, that is a really, erosive Yeah. mindset, an ego mindset that's just doesn't have a place in a, a conscious community, a spiritual community of practitioners. Like, I don't think we should ever be like, oh, you don't have Reiki, or You're not a Reiki practitioner because you didn't study from this person, or whatever that, I don't think that that's happening. Maybe it is a little bit, but I really hope it did happen a lot. I don't know if it's, well, I mean not, I mean really I, if, if I'm honest, if I look at a lot of, you know, things, there, there were types of Reiki where they would say that it's of a higher vibration. Meaning that it's better than, I mean, you know, for me that is a basic misunderstanding of what Reiki is. Universe. If, if it's universal energy, how the hell do you get a higher vibration than the universe? Right? You know, it is like this is, this is a selling point for, and that that does exist and it exists quite a bit out there. There used to be things, people saying you had to be retuned and all sorts of stuff like that. And so yes, I think those attitudes have been there. One would hope that they were less there today. I don't know, maybe people out there know, maybe people can share their experiences of, of how that has worked for them in their life. And, yeah. Hmm. Yeah, you're right. I mean, there are people who talk about that in like, Reiki community groups and things like that, but I think that we're doing better about being more interconnected as, a community. And so there's more policing, a little bit of, or support for people who may have learned under a context something of some, some similar variety of that. So, more support for those folks. Well, thanks Bronwen. Lovely to get back, having our little Reiki women podcast chats. And, we hope that this, episode might be inspire some thought for you, maybe something that you wanna share on to somebody in your community. or maybe you have some, questions or thoughts or reflections about your own personal experiences. So please feel free to share that with us in the chats. Yeah, and if you didn't know, we have this, Reiki Women podcast fundraiser, so it's an open crowdsourcing fundraiser. If you get something from our podcast and you felt like you would wanna send over a donation our way, there is a pathway to do that. And that's so helpful for us because there is. quite a few costs, associated with, getting this podcast and these conversations out to the broader Reiki community. So, yeah, and please do, I know people talk about it, and I should say it at the beginning. We're gonna do it at the beginning. You need to press a like and, get notifications on these things because then YouTube will put it more out there for other Reiki people. We need to actually get out there and, yeah, get other people in on the chat. Absolutely. Well, thank you Bronwen. have a wonderful day and we will see you all again soon for another lovely conversation. Bye for now. Bye.