Born Into a Cult - Escaped at 36 | Ep 086

✨   Sean Miller spent over 30 years inside the Jehovah's Witness organization before discovering the shocking truth that changed everything.

In this eye-opening conversation, Sean reveals:

✨  What it's really like growing up in an isolationist religious community
✨  The devastating impact of "disfellowshipping" and family shunning
✨  How he discovered disturbing information about child abuse cover-ups
✨  The moment his entire worldview shattered while doing laundry
✨  Why his own father compared him to a child who committed suicide
✨  Essential tips for dealing with JWs at your door (from someone who knocked on thousands of doors)

From a naive 'child' at 24 to rock band rebel to apostate - this is a story of love, loss, and ultimate liberation.

Sean now helps others through art therapy and is developing a TV series about his experience. His website: SeanGregoryMiller.com

🚪 DEALING WITH JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES AT YOUR DOOR:
Sean's insider advice from someone who spent 70 hours/month knocking on doors:

✨  Simply say "I'm not interested. Please put me on your do not call list"
✨  DON'T engage in conversation - they're trained to form emotional bonds quickly
✨ DON'T slam the door - it confirms their persecution complex
✨  They write down EVERYTHING about you after they leave (hair color, kids, interests)
✨  Being rude actually strengthens their faith, so just be polite but firm

CHAPTERS
[00:00] Introduction & Hosts Preview
[02:11] Meet Sean Miller
[02:35] Life Inside the Organization
[05:40] Falling in Love & Getting Disfellowshipped
[07:21] Family Shunning & Isolation
[11:08] Wife's Conversion & Reinstatement
[14:11] The Breaking Point
[16:02] Crisis of Conscience
[18:14] The Moment Everything Shattered
[25:48] The Terror of Armageddon
[28:12] Comparing Cults
[32:45] Helping Others vs. Destroying Faith
[33:49] Father's Devastating Phone Call
[36:09] Advice for Those Approached by JWs
[38:37] No Regrets About Leaving
[39:34] Healing Through Art
[42:19] Novice Enthusiasm Approach

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Transcript

00:02 - Stacey (Host)
Dude Mark, yes, we talked to an apostate today. An apostate. 

00:07 - Mark (Host)
Yes. 

00:09 - Stacey (Host)
Sean Miller was incredible. I loved that conversation. 

00:12 - Mark (Host)
It was a very entertaining conversation. Yeah, for the topic of cults. I thought it was going to be so much darker than that. 

00:18 - Stacey (Host)
He's such a cool dude. 

00:19 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, he said he could get dark. I'm going to say it now we're going to have him back to talk about the dark stuff of Jehovah's Witnesses. 

00:28 - Stacey (Host)
Maybe answer questions, maybe do a live with him. 

00:30 - Mark (Host)
Maybe that would be fun. He was born and raised for over 30 years in Jehovah's Witnesses and he was all in. His parents are elders, or his father was an elder or his mother was high up. 

00:40 - Stacey (Host)
He lived the life until he met the lady, until he fell in love. 

00:45 - Mark (Host)
Then he left. 

00:46 - Stacey (Host)
But no, but he didn't leave. At that point he was still in Jehovah's Witness, he was disassociated. 

00:52 - Mark (Host)
He was disfellowshipped. Disfellowshipped, yes, but he still would go. 

00:56 - Stacey (Host)
And then his wife converted to. Jehovah's Witness. 

01:00 - Mark (Host)
I don't tell you the whole story. It's fascinating. If you ever had any inkling about what's it like he did leave eventually Thank God. He did leave what it's like inside the walls of Jehovah's Witnesses, or as a religion and as a cult and as the people who stop you on the street or knock on your front door. 

01:16 - Stacey (Host)
He covers everything, but we really only scratched the surface. I believe that's why we need to have him back. We're having him back, yeah. 

01:22 - Mark (Host)
We didn't get into enough to talk. There's some dark stuff there. 

01:25 - Stacey (Host)
No doubt. 

01:26 - Mark (Host)
I'm giddy happy with that conversation. 

01:28 - Stacey (Host)
I know I am too. Why are we so happy? 

01:30 - Mark (Host)
Because it was, you know what. 

01:39 - Stacey (Host)
It was a great look inside, something that we've all heard about but, nobody ever was great and I told him, if he knocked on my door as a Jehovah's Witness and tried to get me indoctrinated, like I would listen to him I think, well, he's engaging, he's just entertaining and fun and nice. 

01:52 - Mark (Host)
And I loved when I asked him about Scientology, Like how's a Jehovah's Witness? Oh, that was a really good question. 

02:04 - Stacey (Host)
What do you guys enjoy? Enjoy Sean Miller. Hi, I'm Stacey. 

02:11 - Mark (Host)
And I am Mark, and this is the Gurus at Game Changers podcast. Hey, sean, welcome to the show. Buddy, thanks for joining us. We appreciate it. 

02:21 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Thank you. 

02:24 - Stacey (Host)
So you grew up as a Jehovah's Witness? Correct. Correct no celebrations of holidays or birthdays and a belief that Armageddon was imminent correct. 

02:35 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Armageddon is kind of always looming in the background. It could happen at any time. So I was born into it, that's all I knew. My parents were both very active and kind of well, definitely well respected, and had a kind of follow in their footsteps, and it definitely shaped my worldview, because all of the things that are normal for most people, like dating, going to school dances, seeing rated R movies, celebrating Christmas, your birthday all of that was framed as bad. I was scared of the world at large because everybody kind of posed this threat of luring me out of God's true religion. I had a lot of anxiety and it was something that carried over into adult life, just kind of being on hyper alert to all these potential dangers that existed out in the world. There's an us versus them sort of mentality. That's what most people don't understand about Jehovah's Witnesses is that they are an isolationist group, even though they do exist out in the real world. Mentally and emotionally, internally they are completely cut off from normal society. 

04:05 - Mark (Host)
Was all of that bad, because it was God's will that you didn't go to the movies, that you didn't celebrate your birthday. 

04:10 - Stacey (Host)
What was the reason? Was that like devil fodder? 

04:14 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Yeah, so this is. I haven't had to touch any of this stuff in a long time. Sorry, forgive me long time, so forgive me there's. There's some scriptures in the Bible that they use to kind of put this spin on something like a birthday or Christmas, that you know God, jehovah, finds it not pleasing the scriptures that they use to enforce these things. I mean it's a real stretch. It's a real stretch, but you know it works. 

04:45 - Mark (Host)
It's all about control. 

04:47 - Stacey (Host)
Was there something? Were there fun things you did in, you know, instead. 

04:51 - Sean Miller (Guest)
We did have some parties where we'd get together and like dance and do pool parties and stuff like that, but it um, that's one thing about Jehovah's witness parties, especially with young people and teenagers it's heavily chaperoned all the time because they don't want you like running off and making out and, you know, screwing in the garage or something like that. Like that part of normal young life did not exist for me. Young life did not exist for me Wow Dating interactions with young women. 

05:27 - Mark (Host)
Were you encouraged to marry within the community? Oh yeah. A hundred percent oh yeah, or you could bring your future wife into the community yes, that's exactly what happened with me. 

05:40 - Stacey (Host)
Oh, let's go, let's go. 

05:42 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Yes, to answer your question, you're only supposed to marry within the religion. You're not supposed to have any sort of romantic partnership with what's called a worldly person, that is, anybody that exists outside of the religion. If you do have a relationship with somebody outside of the religion, it's not only frowned upon but it can get you in trouble to the point where you're expelled from the community and that expulsion is called disfellowshipping. I ended up getting disfellowshipped and what that entails is you lose contact with your friends, your family. Nobody talks to you. You can still come to meetings that's what they call the congregation. They don't call it going to church, they call it going to meeting. So you can still go to meetings but you kind of have to sit in the back and nobody looks at you, nobody talks to you. You just are kind of this invisible person. And that's what happened because I yeah, we can get into that, it's quite the thing. That's what happened to me because I fell in love with she's not my ex-wife, but my wife at the time fell in love with her, spent a lot of time with her. We were kind of sneaking around because, you know, I knew I pressure. It doesn't really allow for the gradual, natural, beautiful maturation of what could be a loving partnership. The pressure of that kind of grew to the point where I ratted on myself and there was some people that knew what I was doing, so I was going to get busted anyway. 

07:21
I got disfellowshipped for having a quote inappropriate relationship with somebody outside of the religion. We ended up having our first child together. She started studying the Bible with a Jehovah's Witness and she ended up getting baptized. When she got baptized, I started going back to meetings more regularly and I got reinstated. So that was. There was this big announcement to the congregation which was like Sean Miller is now basically approved to be back into the fold and now you can talk to him. And then, of course, when that happens, everybody just swarms you and it's like just this love bombing and oh, my God, god, I missed you so much. And blah, blah, blah, and it's an incredibly overwhelming experience because you're at the valley, the depths, and then you just rock it straight to the top wow, how did you even meet her if she wasn't in the church? 

08:23
my brother and I had a band that was pretty controversial because we weren't really supposed to be like playing shows and getting popular and stuff like that, and she used to come to see our band play. She was just fascinating. I mean, she was just like everything opposite of what the Jehovah's Witness girls that I knew at the time was. But she was also Christian, so she would like get into it with me and debate with me about the Bible and I just thought it was unbelievably sexy and she was beautiful too and it was just. You know, we're just two little weirdos. 

09:03 - Stacey (Host)
I love it. That's so awesome. And then she somehow got indoctrinated, jehovah's Witness. That's crazy. 

09:08 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, you never would have thought that that would have happened. You were leaving, you were out, you were disfellowshipped. 

09:14 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Yeah, I mean it was really tough man, I'm not going to lie, it was awful. I went through a very, very bad depression during that time because I just didn't know what was up and down and there was nobody to help me navigate my feelings. Because I was also at the time I think I was 24, but essentially still kind of a child because I didn't have any normal experience. So when I was disfellowshipped, I started reaching out to some family just because I needed support and this family was not Jehovah's Witnesses and they did not know what to make of it. 

09:59 - Mark (Host)
Really. 

10:00 - Sean Miller (Guest)
They were very, very supportive but they kind of they didn't know where the line was. It was like do we tell this guy that he's been in a cult his whole life or do we just try to help him, you know, navigate all these things of like being a new parent and getting married, and it was. It was wild, it was a lot. 

10:19 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, it was wild, dude so the moment you got this fellowship, you had no relationship with your parents, with your brother or anyone else that you were friends with like that. So you were just. 

10:29 - Stacey (Host)
You were on your own but yet you didn't want to leave the church at that point yeah, that's. 

10:34 - Sean Miller (Guest)
that's really how deeply ingrained the indoctrination is sure. Sure, you know, because you. What happens is you start internalizing all of these just normal human emotions as bad and then you start framing it as oh my God, I must be a bad person and I'm going to die at Armageddon because I'm disfellowshipped, and your brain just kind of starts doing all these backflips and cartwheels to try to understand what's happening to you, because you never think that you would ever be in that position of being disfellowshipped. 

11:08 - Stacey (Host)
So did you kind of encourage your wife to go into the religion, into Jehovah's Witness? 

11:16 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Yes and no. I mean, like she was the mother of my child, right, and I loved her, so it was like I'm going to be with you, no matter what. I'm going to go back because I miss my family. But there was never really pressure for her to do it and I think part, you know, to her credit she just looked at it as a way of like, well, this will just be so much easier. 

11:39 - Stacey (Host)
Right. 

11:40 - Sean Miller (Guest)
You know, if I just join, get baptized and everything will be fine. You know, if I just join, get baptized and everything will be fine. And you know she was under a lot of pressure from I can't imagine. 

11:58 - Stacey (Host)
My parents you know the congregation that I belong to. I mean it was. It was a nightmare, it was a mess. Wow, do you guys all live in the same place, like? I just have this picture in my head where, you know, weren't, you were in a rock band. I was like, oh, that's wild, because I feel like you guys must all be like in the same area, living in houses next to each other like a commune, like a compound. But I'm wrong, right, that's not uh, you're right and wrong. 

12:26 - Sean Miller (Guest)
So there is a compound, but only kind of the cream of the crop. Get to go there. It's called Bethel. Okay, that's the worldwide headquarters. So you have to submit an application and all this formal stuff. But as far as normal Jehovah's Witnesses that go to local congregation meetings, no, there's no compound. We kind of blend into society. 

12:40 - Mark (Host)
I want to stick on your parents for a second Sure. Did they not try to reach out to you? Did they not want to talk to their son? Or was the religion so ingrained in them that they said no, he's disfellowshipped, we no longer want contact with you. 

12:57 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Yeah, thank you. That's a really good question. Thank you, because I think what happens is some people can easily vilify the people that are actively shunning you. Right, right, right. So my mom is pretty hardcore. She didn't reach out to me at all. There's a loophole that existed for my dad because he is an elder, so that's kind of somebody at the top in the congregation who's similar to like a pastor, a deacon or minister, whatever you want to call it, and with that comes special privileges. So he could reach out to me from time to time to offer like spiritual encouragement for me to come back. But it was not really in like a father-son, familial, got it, I love you so much, that sort of thing. It was very, it was, it was cold, but, um, yeah, I know it was painful for them. You know very painful for them. 

13:59 - Stacey (Host)
Yeah, it still is but then when you were re-indoctrinated, that's before you left, correct, so you didn't. Oh, yeah, yeah, I should give you. Yes, yeah, I need the time. 

14:11 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Let's have the timeline, sure sure, sure, that's pretty important because I'm not an active Jehovah's Witness now. I did what you call disassociate, and when you do that they call you an apostate, and an apostate is the worst of the worst. There's basically like no coming back from that. So the timeline is I was born and raised uh, pretty much no issues up until I was in my early 20s, got involved with my ex-wife, had a son I have three kids now, but I had a son, got reinstated, brought back, was kind of on the straight and narrow for a while, and then we stumbled upon across some like really disturbing uh information about the organization as a whole and made the decision to leave. And I was 36 at the time, I'm 41 now and we left Stockton right in the middle of the pandemic and moved to Austin. Didn't know anybody out here, and here I am. 

15:30 - Mark (Host)
You left with your wife. Your wife is with my wife, yeah. 

15:33 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Yeah, we, we got divorced pretty. I think it was probably like a year after that we got here. It was a lot man, it was a lot. 

15:47 - Stacey (Host)
Yeah, I'm sure it was. I can't believe it. 

15:49 - Mark (Host)
It was a lot Talk about what? Yeah, I was just going to ask. 

15:52 - Stacey (Host)
So you talked about, like the troubling information about the organization. Do you want to share what that process of discovery was like for you and what it was? 

16:02 - Sean Miller (Guest)
want to share what that process of discovery was like for you and what it was. Sure, I've kind of come across a lot of really cool and interesting people within the ex-Jehovah's Witness community and it's not always the same thing for everybody when they choose to leave. Crisis of Conscience was written by a former governing body member, which is the cream of the crop, the very top, the leaders of the entire Jehovah's Witness organization. They come up with all of the policies, the scriptural interpretation for everything, and it's incredibly rare to see one or talk to one out in normal everyday life. And this guy wrote an entire expose on the religion and if you're caught with that book as a Jehovah's witness, that's pretty much a disfellowshipping offense if you just own the book. And my ex she's a very inquisitive person and she was like fuck it, I'm going to read this thing and I was like oh gosh. 

17:06
She had some really good reasons for why she wanted to and I just was like, ok, well, you know, you're on your own. And then she just kind of kept telling me about what she was reading. And what's interesting is I had been in the religion for long enough at that time where there were some things that I remember about policy that was enforced, where they told us one thing, but what was in the book was something totally different. So that caused me to start poking around to try and do my own research and I ended up finding the Australian Royal Commission and it's a probably 12 hours long video of a court case involving the Jehovah's Witnesses for some very severe child sex abuse stuff. And I watched the whole thing and I remember the moment when it clicked for me. I was doing laundry and I was standing in front of my washing machine just sobbing uncontrollably. 

18:14
The whole curtain was pulled back and this lawyer was going through, line by line, this policy book that the Jehovah's Witness elders have, that a regular Jehovah's Witness is never allowed to see, and this lawyer had one, and he was just kind of dismantling the whole structure of how the religion goes about handling and reporting child sex abuse cases. The religion goes about handling and reporting child sex abuse cases and the response from the leadership was just so unlike anything that we were supposed to be as followers of Jesus. It was like wait a second. I have sacrificed nearly 36 years of my life, I've been disfellowshipped, I've gone through all this bullshit, I've given up so many relationships and interests and you're telling me that the leadership, the guys that I'm supposed to follow, are not going to do anything to help these people of child sex abuse and in fact, they go a step further to call them liars. Yeah, unbelievable, unbelievable. And I just like my whole world just completely shattered. And it was, it was wild. 

19:35 - Mark (Host)
But you can't be alone, you can't be the only one you and your wife that knows what happened, or watch the video, or had the book. Were you alone in your departure. 

19:46 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Yeah, that was really scary because, you have to remember, if we kind of like go backwards in our conversation a little bit, jehovah's Witnesses are very suspicious of worldly people, right. So they're always suspicious about information they're taking in, where it's coming from, what the source is. So when she and I made the decision to leave, it was almost like this covert operation, right. It was like we can't tell anybody what we found, but we also feel like we have to tell everybody what we found and we don't know who's safe and who we can talk to, because you're going to get narked on almost immediately, which did happen to me. My best friend ratted me out to the elders and fortunately, I kind of like took myself out before the elders could disfellowship me. So I said it's like I quit, you can't fire me, I quit, sort of thing. You know what I mean, yeah. So, yeah, that was really pretty wild. 

20:53 - Mark (Host)
Can't just be the threat of Armageddon there had to be. You did wrong, you're about to be punished, and here's your punishment. 

20:58 - Sean Miller (Guest)
What did? 

20:58 - Mark (Host)
it look like to act up. 

21:02 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Uh, it's okay. Yeah, that's a good question. Um, you know, there there's the threat of Armageddon and Jehovah and him being displeased with you, right, right and not, you're not going to benefit from you know? Uh, jehovah's witnesses believe in the resurrection, like, after you die, you'll be resurrected onto a paradise earth after Armageddon and all this stuff. 

21:25
So, you know, at some point for a guy like me at 30, there's the sunk cost fallacy that sinks in, where you're like I've sacrificed so much for 30 years, right, I got to make this work, right. But when I was younger it's shame-based and they basically deconstruct every healthy and positive thing about you that you like and get you to basically distrust your own mind and your own reasoning capability and your own heart. So the way it's enforced is basically you know the community. It's like if you act up, you lose the privilege of being part of the congregation and having friends and you're outcast. So it's isolation, right. The first time it happened to me I remember it's a very I'll never forget this feeling. I didn't know what to do with myself. So I went to the grocery store and it was like out of a movie. I just kind of stood in the produce section with kind of just this blank look on my face. 

22:42
I didn't even know like what to buy or I just saw all these people walking around and it felt like somebody could just like pass right through me. I felt completely hollow, totally empty, like an alien, almost Like I didn't know how to interact with anyone. So it was like an alien, almost like I didn't know how to interact with anyone, so it was I. Unless you can experience it, I really don't know how to put it into words. 

23:06 - Stacey (Host)
It's just such a crushing feeling disassociate and probably you, probably in such shock that you were disassociating and just sort of like you had to be on a different plane. 

23:16 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Well, there's a there's a layer to that too, where my, my family was very well known and very well respected up and down California within the community. So you know to have a Miller boy be disfellowshipped was a big deal in the local congregation and the surrounding area and for my parents in particular. 

23:40 - Stacey (Host)
You were just so in love with this woman that you just didn't give a shit. 

23:44 - Sean Miller (Guest)
You were like I don't, I don't even care if I'm shunned or I mean, you know, when you're young and you're having sex and everything, and it's just like I've never experienced anything like that before Cause I was also. I'm not embarrassed to admit this, but I was. I was a virgin at I think I was 24 or 25 when we finally met and I think I'd only kissed one girl at that point and had probably held somebody's hand for the first time when I was like 15 or something. So completely, you know, inexperienced, had my mind blown the first time that we hooked up and it was just like what. 

24:23
I've never felt anything like this before. 

24:25 - Stacey (Host)
This is the heaven I'm looking for. This is my new religion. Yeah, my new religion, and that makes sense. 

24:29 - Mark (Host)
It totally does, especially for your age. 

24:31 - Stacey (Host)
So but when you felt that way and you were standing in the grocery store, how did you find the strength to keep moving forward at that point? This episode is brought to you by Mainline Studios and the Podcast Factory, where great content feels right at home. Located in beautiful Wayne, Pennsylvania, our creative rental space offers high-end tech in a space that feels like your best friend's living room. Book your session or a free tour at mainlinevideostudiocom. And back to the show. How did you find the strength to keep moving forward at that point? 

25:04 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Boy? I really don't know. I well, there were things that made me very happy that you know, I've since kind of used. Now as an adult, 41 year old man, I still rely on those things now, but it was like art and music and creativity and people. 

25:28 - Stacey (Host)
Back to Armageddon real quick. Sorry, just thought of this, I know. I'm totally being ADD in this interview, but so the fear of that. How bad was that. 

25:41 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Oh, I'm so glad you asked. Yes, I got a good one. Back to Armageddon, back to Armageddon so. 

25:48
Armageddon, one thing that you have to understand and if you have any current Jehovah's Witnesses or ex-Jehovah's Witnesses that are watching, this is how they'll know that I'm the real deal. Witnesses that are watching this is how they'll know that I'm the real deal. Armageddon is illustrated throughout Jehovah's Witness printed literature in pretty graphic detail and they've kind of tamed it over the years. It's this big, earth wide, global event. So it's depicted as like angels with swords coming down killing people, the ground opening up and people falling in, and like fire from heaven coming down and, you know, burning people alive, and like tornadoes and lightning and it's just, it's really intense. So when you're a little kid they give you these books. They didn't shy away from showing blood and people being killed. 

26:45
And, um, we had these, uh, bible story tapes and my parents used to play these Bible story tapes for my brother and I when we would be in bed and we'd fall asleep to these things. Wow, and there were a couple. You know most of them were pretty nice, but there were a couple that you know you're listening to, like people being killed. In the background of this, this story, like there's people screaming, there's like Bible stories of like the walls of Jericho falling and you hear all these actors like they're dying, like god you know. 

27:21 - Stacey (Host)
Oh my god to that as a little kid I was yeah, that's called, that's called programming and brainwashing. 

27:27 - Sean Miller (Guest)
It's exactly what they were doing. 

27:29 - Stacey (Host)
It's brainwashing but then when you just kind of transitioned out of that strict religious community and you found yourself with, like total freedom and autonomy, what do you do like? What's the first thing you do like? Are you like woohoo, let's all get naked curse fireball. 

27:45 - Mark (Host)
I got super high you got totally stoned. 

27:48 - Stacey (Host)
That was your first thing, c mark I told. I told you it's fun. You told me there was value in that. Yeah, I hope I can articulate this question properly. 

27:54 - Mark (Host)
I'm listening to everything that you've said about, uh, the isolation from your, your parents, about how your best friend can be the narc and tell on you about the shaming, about they make you think it's your problem and you need to bow down to the teachings. 

28:12
All of that screams cult to me, the lay person, but it also screams Scientology, because that story was played out a thousand times as a member, former member of Jehovah's Witnesses, but it'll also scream Scientology because that story was played out a thousand times. Yeah, as a as a member, former member of Jehovah's Witnesses did you look at Scientology and say, yeah, they're just like us. Or did you say that's a cult? 

28:30 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Oh dude, I was like, oh crazy. 

28:32 - Mark (Host)
Oh my God, that's a great question, but recognizing that your religion was doing the exact same thing. 

28:39 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Well, it's funny because you don't really make that realization until after you leave, right, because you are so conditioned throughout your life that this is the truth. When you talk about cults, people kind of want it to be this like sexy, like you know sex, drugs and rock and roll and you know underground Satan worship and whatever. But to be a Jehovah's Witness is actually, for a guy like me anyway, mind numbingly boring, because it's just constant repetition of the same thing over and over and over. You're not ever exposed really to any other religion and you're not really exposed to any information that could help you understand that what you're in is a cult. You know, we always looked at everybody else as being weirdos. 

29:28 - Stacey (Host)
You're gonna think that this is like so out there, but how do we not know we're in a cult? What do you mean? I don't know? Like we have a lot of the same things going on in our government and with the media, and how do we not know that everything that we think is right is is wrong? 

29:45 - Sean Miller (Guest)
if you kind of run your experience and your beliefs and uh kind of take a 30 000 foot view of the community you belong to and you kind of test it against the behavior, control, information, emotion. And then you realize, like if I was to speak up about anything that I personally believe in, or if I was to speak up and say, hey, I think that's actually wrong and a lot of people are getting really, really hurt because of this ideology. If you face expulsion because of that, you might be part of a high control group. 

30:25 - Stacey (Host)
I think that could be applied a lot more widely than we think. 

30:27 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Probably I don't want people to freak out and be like oh my God, I'm in a cult. No, no, no. 

30:34 - Stacey (Host)
It was totally like an out there kind of concept, but I feel like you're the kind of guy that I can bring up you and I can talk, mark and I can't talk. 

30:41 - Mark (Host)
We can get weird. If you want, there's a book. I don't know if you read a book. There's a book called Cultish. 

30:46 - Stacey (Host)
I want to read that book. I haven't read it. 

30:48 - Sean Miller (Guest)
I know what you're talking about, though. 

30:58 - Stacey (Host)
It that's shared by cults. To point out that these things that we don't think are cults like multi-level marketing. 

31:00 - Mark (Host)
You know people that get involved in that. That. They are, in fact, not cults per se, but they share great number of similarities with cults based on language based on a love bombing that was one of the very first things we talked about love bombing. Here's my question based on what you just said, you're speaking out. Other people have left. Are apostates to Jehovah's Witnesses right? 

31:22 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Yeah. 

31:24 - Mark (Host)
There has to be a decent percentage which you were just alluding to of people that are still in there that know they're in a cult. Like you said at the beginning, it's a 100%. No doubt it's a cult. They know it. 

31:37 - Stacey (Host)
How do they know? Now, maybe it's a 100, no doubt it's a cult, they know it. How do they know? Maybe it's a song? They know why would they be there? 

31:40 - Mark (Host)
this? Well, that's my question. It's maybe the sunk cost issue, like your father he may know as far as or people how his father does not know bought in. They like this is my life, this is what I'm doing. It's really why you don't leave a bad marriage like. It's gonna cost me way too much to start over here it's the golden handcuffs. That's not the same thing. It's not the same thing, but it's a similar concept it's a similar concept. 

32:02 - Sean Miller (Guest)
That's a great question. Uh, this is, this is very delicate, so I'll answer. Um, to validate the feelings of why somebody might stay, okay. Um, so when I left, I found the ex Jehovah's Witness community, which is thriving on YouTube, and I joined that community and I started to do my own form of activism, which is basically what it looks like, is you kind of take some sort of theology or problem or something that exists within the religion and you debunk it through a video and I got pretty good at it. 

32:45
And what was happening is I started getting flooded with all of these comments and emails and people you know wanting to fight and argue, and then other people wanting to like me, to like, help them strategize some plan for leaving and all this stuff Right. And I slowly backed away from that because I didn't think it was really my place to try and destroy somebody's faith or you know, I knew how, how painful it was to leave, so I didn't really want to participate in anybody's pain. Uh, I, and I was still working through so much of my own grief and pain too, and it was like I didn't really feel qualified at the time. So, if they do come to your door. Their single goal is to get you to overhaul your life, and the cost that comes with that is extremely high. So I'll use my dad as an example. 

33:49
So he reached out to me in July of last year and he was crying and kind of opened up about how much of a failure he felt like as a father and this and that, and blah, blah, blah. And I had this moment of clarity where I was just like, oh my God, I don't believe it. Like this is everything I've ever wanted to hear from my dad and I love my dad so much and I can finally talk to him. And there was this little tiny voice in the back of my head that said you really need to test what it is that he's saying and how he's saying it to you, because all this failure that he's talking about and this opening up that he's doing with you, what does it mean really? So I asked him to expand on it and he was like oh, I failed you as a father because you're no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Icing on the cake was he told me that he felt like the parent of a child that committed suicide. 

34:50 - Stacey (Host)
Wow, oh Sean, that's why he was crying. 

34:52 - Sean Miller (Guest)
That's yes, that's why Because? 

34:54 - Stacey (Host)
you're dead to him. 

34:56 - Sean Miller (Guest)
I'm dead to him. So what, what? What that really is is he's looking for absolution, yeah, and he's got all this shit that he just dumped on me and looking for some sort of I don't know apology or accept. I don't know what he was looking for and I just you know that really hurt. But thank goodness, you know I've done a lot of very focused therapy with a cult recovery therapist and I was able to just kind of sit with it and take it in and I wrote him a very direct letter and I just said you know, I love you very much, but I we can't do that again. 

35:39 - Mark (Host)
Please don't ever reach out to me unless you wake up and decide to leave you know, it's completely unfair, your father didn't reach out to you, the elder of the church reached out to you at the end of the day and you're saying don't reach me out until you're going to call me as a dad. Yeah, so, based on something you just said, if I am stopped on the street or somebody knocks on my door from Jehovah's witness, is your recommendation slam the door as quickly as possible? 

36:09 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Well, so I I was a, what they call. I was a regular pioneer. Okay, that's, that's a title that exists within the church, where that means you devote 70 hours of your personal time, unpaid, to go out and knock on doors and try to convert people. I've had people tear up the magazines in front of me. I've had people invite me in as a Jehovah's Witness. At that time I would say please be kind, you don't have to agree, you don't even have to take anything that I'm giving you. Just be kind, just say I'm not interested. Um, I think what would happen if you slam the door in front of somebody's face. That would actually work against you because it would be a confirmation of their faith. 

37:08
Oh good one, I think I was being metaphorical when I said slam the door. 

37:12 - Stacey (Host)
I don't know I mean I was. If you're stopped on the street, just don't engage them, because the other end of that. 

37:17 - Mark (Host)
If you do engage them, they can convince you that the end game there is not good for you. 

37:22 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Well, here's what I'll tell you to do and for your listeners to do you just simply say I'm not interested. 

37:27
Okay, because if you give an inch, they will engage you in conversation. Their goal, whether they know it or not, is to form some sort of emotional bond with you as soon as possible. So just this is education for your listeners. Okay, that's great. Yeah, you have Jehovah's Witnesses come to your door. You should ask, and if you truly have no interest in what they're talking about, you should say I'm not interested. Please put me on your do not call list. If you don't do that and you start engaging with them in conversation, the moment they leave your house they write down every detail about what that conversation was, who you were, the color of your hair, if you have kids, what your kid's favorite color was, anything that they could use. I was pretty good at the door-to-door stuff. 

38:22 - Stacey (Host)
I bet you were. 

38:24 - Sean Miller (Guest)
I think you're so engaging. 

38:25 - Stacey (Host)
In your darkest moments after leaving. I asked you in the beginning was there ever a split second where you questioned if walking away was worth the cost? Or do you ever think now do you ever regret it in any way away was worth? 

38:37 - Sean Miller (Guest)
the cost or if, do you ever think? Now do you ever regret it in any way? Um no, not at all yeah no, I I think there was a moment where I was so scared, but remember, the reason I left was ultimately for my kids. So right do anything, I couldn't take them on that roller coaster ride again yeah, I couldn't matter how scared you were, and they don't know anything about Jehovah's Witness? 

38:59 - Stacey (Host)
right, they're out there. 

39:00 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Yeah, they do they were born into it as well, and but they left when they were pretty young. So you know my daughter who's the youngest. She doesn't have a whole lot of memories about it. 

39:13 - Stacey (Host)
My oldest two are just like oh my God, it was so boring. Thank God we have no more meetings, so let's get into your art. So you designed for like huge brands, right? So, um, Sephora, what is it? Zynga, Nickelodeon, what else? And tell me what you do and how. That's been sort of a game changer for you. 

39:34 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Um, yeah, so uh, restoration hardware is another big one that I've worked for. Right now what I'm doing as a side hustle is I'm painting murals in people's homes. 

39:48 - Stacey (Host)
Just think it's cool that you kind of took what was a real sticky situation and changed your purpose. 

39:55 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Through art I was able to learn who I was or who I am. I was able to kind of reframe my experience, and then I was able to build a community around myself through art. So I wrote essentially what was going to be a movie about my experience Right. 

40:21
And when I showed it to somebody who had some connections to producers and stuff, they were like this is wild and they were like you can't contain this in a movie, you should do a TV series. This in a movie you need, you should do a tv series. Basically it's a a retro, futuristic, sci-fi retelling of what it was like to exit the jehovah's witness community wow, well, hopefully it'll be greenlit I would love to watch that. 

40:48 - Stacey (Host)
Yeah, yeah, it's very cool, that's exciting we're definitely going to stay in touch and good for you how that plays out, but it would be what a great ending if that was what happened, right? 

40:57 - Mark (Host)
yeah, that would be a great part of your story arc. For sure, for sure, yeah. 

41:01 - Sean Miller (Guest)
I appreciate that, Thank you. But the thing is, you know, my kids have seen me put myself back together through art and through this project, and it's important for them to just observe what it is to learn how to heal yourself. You don't have to have somebody telling you you're going to burn in hell if you don't do this, this, this, this and this. That's no, we don't have any of that in my family. 

41:28 - Stacey (Host)
Sean, I can't believe what you've done. I can't believe this story. You are a brave mofo, right, right. 

41:43 - Sean Miller (Guest)
Isn't he? I can't he all? 

41:43
sorts of, and a good dad there's no doubt about, yes, off camera. And a fantastic dad opened up this thing on my website um, it's called novice enthusiasm, and novice enthusiasm is this mindset that I have developed over, you know, the last 15 years as an artist. That was based on the first negative review that I ever got of my heart Through. The novice enthusiasm approach is I, you know, somebody can book time with me and we just sit and talk about what it is that they love about their own personality and just celebrate that. 

42:19
And we do very, very simple exercises with a pencil or crayon or whatever. And I just, for example, ask them try to interpret whatever emotion is at the top of your head right now into a color. That's it. And then maybe let's have a conversation about why you chose that color and, before you know it, that color is associated to some sort of childhood memory, either good or bad. And then you go the next step and you say why don't you give that color a shape? And before you know it, we've covered shape, texture, direction, all this stuff, movement. Covered shape, texture, direction, all this stuff, movement. And now this person, after a conversation, has this beautiful piece of abstract art that represents their personality. 

43:04 - Stacey (Host)
That's great. I love that. What's the website? 

43:07 - Sean Miller (Guest)
It's Sean Gregory MillercomS E A N and there's links to get you to the novice enthusiasm thing and you can see work that I've done for all these different brands. 

43:17 - Mark (Host)
Yeah, yeah, perfect. Well, we can't thank you enough. 

43:20 - Stacey (Host)
This has been an incredible conversation. Thank you so much for being so open. 

43:25 - Sean Miller (Guest)
You've been so generous with your time, and Jehovah's Witnesses are kind of weird, so you're brave for having one on. 

43:34 - Mark (Host)
Oh, we love it. It's been so informative. We only host apostates Informative. 

43:37 - Stacey (Host)
Well, don't say that, because who knows? 

43:40 - Mark (Host)
I know we're open. Maybe we'll get a response. Let's see. Thank you so much. 

43:46 - Sean Miller (Guest)
This was an absolute pleasure. 

43:48 - Stacey (Host)
I loved hanging with you. 

43:56 - Sean Miller (Guest)
For the record, you are the first podcast that I've ever done speaking about my experience that wasn't already about ex-Jehovah's Witnesses. 

43:59 - Mark (Host)
Oh, okay, really Well, thank you, you're the first two worldly people that I've ever had a podcast with, I hope we didn't tarnish you. 

44:08 - Sean Miller (Guest)
I think you probably just lent to my credibility. 

44:11 - Stacey (Host)
I love it. 

44:12 - Mark (Host)
Well, thank you, my friend, Thank you Sean, and thank you guys so much, and we will see you again next week, my friend. Thank you, sean, and thank you guys for watching. 

44:18 - Stacey (Host)
We will see you again. You're still here. You're still listening. Thanks for listening to the gurus and game changers podcast While you're here. If you enjoyed it, please take a minute to rate this episode and leave us a quick review. We want to know what you thought of the show and what you took from it and how it might've helped you. We read and appreciate every comment. Thanks, See you next week.