Ep. 1 - Redefining Narratives: Empowering Black Boys in Mathematics Education with Dean Berry
Jeffrey: Welcome to the Inquiry Oasis. The University of Arizona College of Education is podcast. Here in the heart of the Sonora Desert. We bring you conversations with our esteemed faculty members whose research impacts lives from Southern Arizona to the far reaches of the globe. Recording from the College of Education's Digital Innovation and Learning Lab, we explored the Transformative Tower of Education in this.
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Introduction
Jeffrey: Thanks for tuning in to the Inquiry Oasis. I'm your host, Jeffrey Anthony, and it's a pleasure to welcome you to our inaugural episode. Today we're privileged to have Dean Robert Q. Barry III, a respected researcher and advocate in the field of mathematics education, and our dean here at the College of Education.
We'll delve into his pivotal research, understand his insights, and unpack the value of his work to the broader community. His research not only pushes the boundaries of academic knowledge, but also fosters real world change and impact. So without further ado, let's set off on this journey of exploration and discovery here in the inquiry Oasis.
Thank you for joining us, Dean Barry. Your work in mathematics education is, of significant value and we're excited to explore it in depth. So to kick off this discussion, let's get to know you better. Could you tell us about yourself and your role here at the College of Education?
Dean Berry: Absolutely. You know, a, as you said earlier, I am the dean of the College of Education. and in doing so, you know, I, it is interesting cause this is my first deanship, hopefully it's my only deanship if I say that. and I say that because, I feel so welcome and so at home here and love working with the people I've connected with here as well.
And so, I, I've had the privilege and the pleasure to serve as Dean, of the College of Education, but I'm also a professor of mathematics education. I hope to see a future where I might step into that a little bit more. I have not yet had the opportunity, to teach any courses that are connected to mathematics, education, or even research methodology.
I also do, meta synthesis work, qualitative meta synthesis, and qualitative. methods, work as well. So I look forward to a future where I can step into either of those or all of those, in, in terms of teaching courses or just connecting with students, whether it be undergraduate students or even graduate students on the work that they're doing as well.
Mapping Success: Black Boys, Mathematics, and the Power of Community in Shaping Educational Journeys
Jeffrey: Oh, fantastic. We're eager to hear about the focus of your research. What drives your investigations in this field?
Dean Berry: Oh, great. So the focus of my research is, I actually been pretty consistent from my dissertation research.
my research is focused on the experiences of black boys in school mathematics, and in my dissertation research I focus on, you know, in this worked, eight black boys, who were successful with school mathematics. And the way I defined success in that work was, based on course enrollment patterns.
These were boys who were in middle school who were either enrolled in algebra one or geometry at the time, algebra one and geometry was the kind of highest math that one could take, if we want to think of it in that way, as a middle schooler. So I wanted to understand what contributed to their experiences in gaining access.
two, high level or high quality curriculum, but also want to understand, How, what were the wraparounds, so to speak. And so in doing so, I interviewed the boys. I looked at their academic records, I interviewed their teachers. I actually spent time with them observing them, not only in school spaces, which I would define its formal space, but also in informal spaces, whether it was.
At the basketball practice, whether it was in the community center, whether it was in the church, where are those spaces that, I receive an invitation? I was able to observe them as well. Cause I want to know, while I focus on mathematics, I think there was a community that kind surrounded these boys. But I also, interviewed their parents and any other people that identified as significant to their experience.
And oftentimes it may not have been their current classroom teacher at that time. For many of them, it was a previous teacher or a previous person. For some it was their pastor. For others it was a coach or someone of that nature. I should state, where I did this research, the reason why I had eight boys, I was in a mid-sized school district where there were only 17 boys who were in middle school.
Who were in either one of those courses. So I had a significant number of the boys, and given the fact that this school district was almost one third black or African American, That seemed to be an under enrollment. We're talking about a school division that had, again, a smaller school division, relative, had somewhere in the neighborhood of 17 to 18,000 students.
and that was, interesting in and of itself because when I started in that work, I expected there would be. Larger numbers and then was surprised that there were larger numbers. And the reason why I say that because my original design for my dissertation work was gonna be more of a quantitative piece, when I found out, oh wow, only 17, I have to re-shift and think about this.
So for me it was really focusing on black boys. What I've done since that work was continued. Trying to understand the boys, black boys experiences. This led me to, found a program called Math Men and Mission or M-Cubed. And what we want to do, and this is when I was on the faculty at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville, Virginia, and what we want to do is create a cohort of boys.
Who would be eligible for advanced study in mathematics. And the way that we want to do that was we started with third graders. The idea that we can, if we can enhance the experience of third grade boys by the time they get to, upper elementary and to middle school. They should be well positioned for,the upper level mathematics courses.
And so from the findings from my dissertation research was one, mentorship and connection, two parent advocacy. And I say that parent advocacy because, for six of the eight boys, it was their mother. Who advocated for them to gain access to upper level mathematics when they're in elementary school, or even at some other point in their experience, and in a sense that they recognized that their sons were performing really well, but were not gain given access.
Which then led me to believe a think. What about those other boys who did not have this level of advocacy? How many other boys have we missed along the way? and so in finding mq. and part, and I need to step back a little bit. Mcu, we partnered with 100 black men of Central Virginia. So there, just having this community that can advocate for these boys created this level of advocacy that I found in my own dissertation research.
And so, yes, while you know, it focused on the mathematics experience, it really was more holistic. I can dig into that a little bit more. I just go into
Beyond the Classroom: The Role of Community Engagement and Advocacy in Nurturing Mathematical Talent
Jeffrey: you know what really jumped out to me there was how important the community is in this aspect. It was outside of the classroom that really had the pivotal moment that can change an individual's lives, whether they excel at mathematics or not. It was what happens at home or in their church or in just their friendships within their community. Absolutely. Yeah. It's fascinating. Ha. Has community really been a big impact to your work?
Dean Berry: Absolutely. You know, I, I mentioned M-Cubed, but also mentioned, Just being connected to community type of scholarship, you know, and community engaged scholarship.
I think we, there's space for this in the academy. I think there's under-appreciation for a community engaged scholarship in the academy, but I think we have to create the space for this. And so for me, when I think about work like we've done with mq, It created opportunities for, not only for the students, but also their families.
we created, opportunities to engage in parents on, how you might engage with the school administrator, how we might engage with,Teachers, what is an I E P? and how might one engage in the I E P process? But for many, you know, we cannot assume that parents have this level of knowledge in going into this space.
But for those of us who have that knowledge, I think we have a responsibility to make sure that we can advocate or even just be an ally in this space, to make sure that, families and communities, are taken care of, are supported, and have access to the things that they should have access to. So for me, it, while I focus on math, I think there's this communal aspect of this as well.
And this kind of leads into my work as a leader. and uh, coming here to the University of Arizona, and also my previous experience. And so the questions that we think about - advocacy, and community and I will say sometimes the challenge of that right. You know, and, um, when I say challenges, what I mean is that sometimes, you have to be, intentional with the purpose, but also create the space where; were are your guardrails?
Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
Dean Berry: What is the space that we want to operate in between, because sometimes you have to negotiate that space. And what is your willingness, to stay within the guardrails that one would stay in. So, connecting and community are significantly important.
Lost but Found: The Intersection of Identity, Mathematics, and the Unseen Potential in Black Boys
Jeffrey: Thank you for that, Dean Barry. Our next question is, understanding our personal connection to our work is often key to realizing its full impact. So, could you explain why this research is important to you?
Dean Berry: You know what I, when I think about this question, I think about. I cannot discount the fact that my research is often connected to who I am and to my own identity.
I was a black boy who experienced success with school mathematics, who had access to upper-level mathematics courses, but who was lost, right. And when I say who was lost, you know, I, um, I, I just knew I was okay and good in math. But, you know, for me, when I reflect on middle school, well junior high school, then in, in high school, when I say I was lost, it's just, oftentimes I was one of very few and just kind of thinking about this space, yeah.
It's kind of lost. I was, I was the quiet compliant student. I didn't cause any trouble. I didn't get any trouble; I was decent enough to be ignored. And so, it makes me think about students who are decent enough to be ignored. and oftentimes those students are lost. Mm-hmm.
Which then led me into college. my first year of college, I took the placement test. I was able to, you know, although having taken calculus in high school, I jumped right into calculus in college and did decent and well there. Again, I was a math student who followed the rules, really didn't understand the math. I could get the A, but not really understand what I was really doing and things of that nature. So my research is connected to, much of my own identity, much of my own experience, and, I can't fully describe how I arrived in the space of mathematics, other than it just seemed like the next thing to do.
Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
Dean Berry: It seemed, I wonder how my trajectory would be different had I had someone who just kind of grabbed me and coached me around the mathematics and, and, saw my potential. Now, I don't wanna imply I didn't have teachers who saw my potential. Because I had fabulous teachers. My sixth-grade teacher, her name was Edna Cherry. She was what I described as a warm demander. She cared about you, but she was, some might describe her as mean, but I would describe her as a warm demander who would just really would stay on you and make sure that you need to do what you do. So I couldn't be lazy in her class, and in her class, she created this project that we had, she had this tinkering corner in the back of her classroom and it was just junk, right. She called it tinkering corner, but it was just, I created a personal fan for my desk Now. I just put pieces together, wires and bulbs and somehow, I can't tell you how I did it. It just happened. Right. But, going back to my research, it is those kinds of things. It is that kind of nurturing how do we find the talent and, and people in, in my case, black boys, who are sometimes, when they're recognized, are they recognized for the academics, or their potential rather than for other reasons. And too often that discourse is around those other reasons. And I want us to create a space and a lens for acknowledging the potential of black boys that often go unacknowledged.
Bridging the Gap: The Intersection of Social-Emotional Learning and Mathematical Instruction
Jeffrey: Thank you for that. To go along with the why we have the how. So, how this research is important to you and could you share how it impacts your life personally, and maybe give some specific examples.
Dean Berry: Yeah, so, one of the things that, that came out of that, for my dissertation work was later I was able to partner with one of my colleagues at UVA. She was interested in social-emotional learning, and I'm interested in mathematics teaching practices, and the way I would describe it: the kinds of practices that we want students to engage in mathematics has to be safe enough that willing, that students are willing to share their thinking. So this is where social emotional learning and math, teaching and learning comes together.
And those practices are thinking about discourse. How do we get students to engage in discourse? Engagement and participation. If we think about participation, with your peers, participation is risk taking. So how do we get students, how do we create classroom environments that students are willing to take the risk, right?
And the other things about representation, mathematical representation. So we create, we, we got an IES grant, institution for Educational Sciences from the US Department of Education. We got an IES grant to look at this intersection. And one of the things that resulted out of that is we want to know, what actually, how can we measure what is happening in mathematics classroom that get at those indicators that we think are high leveraged mathematics teaching practices that create these social and emotional safe environments for students to be willing for willingness to be participatory?
From that work, we develop an observation measure, which is called M-scan or mathematics scan. And mathematics scan measures nine dimensions of mathematics teaching and learning that has this kind of basis of these high-level practices they get at this idea of classroom environment. and so for me, why that was important because this answered my next question along my trajectory.
So what is happening in classrooms that have predominantly black students or students of color in those classrooms? Now that I'm able to measure that, I'm able to understand that. I'm able to look at practices that impact predominantly classrooms of color and how we able to look at those practices that may have an impact, whether it's on achievement, whether it's on student disposition towards mathematics, the mathematical beliefs, all of those things, because too often we narrow experience is down to achievement. Sometimes we have to think about student disposition for mathematics. I run into too many adults who say, I don't like math. Or I hated math. So how do we have an impact on disposition? how do we have an impact on mathematical belief? And belief it's not about getting the right answer. Belief is about persistence and engagement. Even if I'm engaging in a math class and I'm not, I'm, I don't yet find the answer. I'm willing to persist. I'm willing to engage. So where are those classrooms? How can we measure that? And M-scan allowed us to do that.
And so when I think about, my, how, my, how it's related to now, I want to know how those practices that we identify as high leverage practices are impacting students and can we measure that? And we've been able to do that. So there have been several papers and studies out using M-scan, measuring using M-scan at the measure of classroom quality or mathematics, teaching quality.
Fostering Constructive Mathematical Discourse: Building a Classroom Community that Values Thinking Over Rightness and Wrongness
Jeffrey: That was fantastic, you know, the, shared to our listeners here, you gave a talk here early on when you came here to the university and you gave a presentation on your research. You showed a classroom scene in which, it was, I believe it was primarily African Americans in a, in a classroom and a child, raised their hand to answer a question, to answer like, what is the, what is happening in this graph, I believe,
Dean Berry: right.
Jeffrey: And he got it wrong. But the, instead of the students like shaming him or saying or making fun of them, they, they were supportive and they worked together and there was this collaboration happening and then the student understood it was a really magical moment. Right. And, and it was very powerful.
Dean Berry: Yeah, so that classroom it is, it's significantly important, I think, and it's an example of when we create the environment that willing, that students are willing to take the risk to be participatory. Whether they're uncertain about the answer and in this case even have the wrong answer, the student didn't know they had the wrong answer, but the idea when the student presented the wrong answer.
There was this discussion about their thinking. The focus wasn't on the rightness or wrongness of their think of their answer. The focus was on the thinking about that and how the contrast of another student who was, who gave a different answer, which happened to be the right answer, and contrasting those thinking.
So what does the teacher do, to create that kind of environment that students are willing to discuss - two students, one who has the correct answer, one who has the wrong answer, but no one says - 'man, your answer's wrong.' Yeah. You know, because when that happens, the discourse simply ends.
Jeffrey: Yep.
Dean Berry: And if we focus on rightness and wrongness, we, we, we narrow that space. And so the idea is, how do we create classroom environment for that space to be broadened? So we are focusing on thinking, engagement and participation. And I don't want to imply rightness and wrongness is not important. Rightness and wrongness is important, but when we're talking about teaching and teaching practices, it is those things that allow for persistence.
It's those things that help students understand - well, I got the wrong answer, but here's why I got the wrong answer. And so when they move on to the next problem or the next task, it might push their thinking differently. They stay engaged. if someone went in that classroom said, you got the wrong answer, would that student be engaged for the next task or the next problem?
I don't know that, but I can speculate, probably not because now there's some type of injury. When I say injury, there's some type of, injury to their wellbeing. And their willingness to be participatory. And too often that happens to black boys. And it just so happened in this video, it was two black boys. And so, you know, I, I do worry about their injury and wellbeing in classrooms as well.
Mathematics Education in Diverse Classrooms: A Lens on High Leverage Teaching Practices
Jeffrey: We're also interested in the broader implications of your work. Can you share why the broader community might find this research particularly relevant or valuable?
Dean Berry: I think when we think about teaching and teaching practices, and I know I focus on a very particular population, but I also think that much of this work translates to other populations, particularly when we think about high leverage teaching practices.
You know, there are some, and I don't wanna say they apply broadly, but they do apply in ways that there's widespread, sense in the math ed community that this course matters in mathematics. But what does discourse look like? And in example that we just , discussed discourse, can look like continuous engagement, focusing on students thinking, focusing on making those mathematical connections.
So for me it's broad because it gives teachers, and administrators and school, those who care about teaching broadly, a lens or a possibility of what these high leverage practices can look like across multiple communities. We do know that there's research to suggest that students of color are less likely to be in classroom that engages in these high-level practices.
So when we have examples of those, I think it's significantly important to show that students of color can engage in these practices if the environment is situated such that students are allowed to engage in these practices. So for me, too often when I see videos or whether, uh, or examples of good teaching or good mathematics teaching, they often don't represent the kind of classrooms I've worked in and taught in.
Jeffrey: Yep.
Dean Berry: So to have the, that level of example, provides, broadly to teachers, how these practices impact communities that they may be a part of, but we know what the teaching force look like. Oftentimes they're not a part of those communities, particularly communities that are predominantly people of color.
STEM Fields & Diversity: Exploring the Need for Fluidity and Change
Jeffrey: Thank you So during the course of this research, has there been any discoveries or outcomes that took you by surprise? And could you share one with us and tell us why it stood out?
Dean Berry: Ooh,
I don't know if it's necessarily research, but I will say, so when we started M-scan, M-scan been a number of years, What's been surprising to me is when we started M-scan, we focused on black boys and their experience and we had 100 black men as a partner, and we had other community partners. When I mentioned the mentoring aspect, each boy had a mentor from the 100 each boy, not only had a mentor, but we also did mathematizing during the academic year as well as a summer experience, and each mentor had to have a contact with each boy. And I want to be intentional, I use the word boy to often, black boys are not described as boys. Boys, meaning that they are in need of mentorship, support and it's developmentally appropriate to use the term boy rather than oftentimes, black boys are hyper masculinity or are put in position that beyond their developmental years in their developmental age. I, I get asked that sometimes Why you use boy? Because I know that there's a historical negative connotation associated with boy and being black. I'm using boy as a developmental marker. And so I, I want to be clear about that.
But each boy, the surprising thing was over the years M-scan evolved, where we had boys who all the boys identified as black and we had a couple of white boys in M-scan as well. We were open to all boys. but M-scan evolved where almost half the boys could be identified as biracial. the surprising thing is this identity. I had a doctoral student who studied this; many of the boys were biracial, were very fluid in their identity. They identified as black, sometimes they identified black, not being black or identified in some other way sometimes, and the fluidity of the identity, suggest to me in a developmental way, they're still trying to work through their identity as it relate to their relationship, to their parent, their family, as it relate to being a member of a community as it relate to being in school. So, You know, idea of being fluid in their identity as it relates to their biracial, is interesting to me.
This is a space I have not studied but have worked with a doctoral student who has studied this. And so I don't claim to have any expertise in this space. But the surprising thing of learning this and, and want to know more about, how it, and I don't wanna imply that all of us don't have this fluidity in our, our identities.
I think that is the case, but the fluidity of one's identity as it relate to race it, I think it's an understudy area. I think, as we might want to kinda, for me, that is probably a space I want to grow. You know, when I think about the growth that is, as I think about myself as a researcher and that the fluidity of identity as it relate to race and then connect it to mathematics, what does that mean? You know, and how does that appear? Because we know in the broader STEM field, the broader STEM field does not represent the population of K-12 learners. And when we think about as diversity increases in those STEM fields, the fields, are gonna have to change and adjust for the diversity because oftentimes these fields claim they want diversity, but are they ready for the diversity that, that they want?
I'm not sure if they are ready for that diversity. And so when we think about the fluidity of identities, is that. It. Think about the fluidity of a field.
Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
Dean Berry: That needs to shift as well. And there's something significant about that, and I think that's why we have resistance in some of these fields.
Because they're not ready for the fluidity that might come with the diversity that they're asking for. You can't ask for diversity and maintain the status quo. If you want diversity, you have to expect change in your field. And I don't think many STEM fields are ready for that.
From 'Black Boy Joy' to 'Black Girl Magic': The Power of Brilliance Assumptions in Education
Jeffrey: Wow. thank you for sharing that. As we near the end of our conversation, we like to ask our guests to recommend a book or a paper that has been meaningful to them. Could you share one with our audience and explain how it has impacted you?
Dean Berry: Oh wow. So one book I would recommend and it, I'm gonna describe it as a oldie but goodie because I think it was edited in 2013, so it's about 10 years old. It's a book edited by Jackie Leonard and Danny Martin. I actually have a chapter in this book with, my doctoral students at the time.
The title of the book is "The Brilliance of Black Children in Mathematics: Beyond the Numbers and Toward New Discourse." This book has multiple chapters that get at this notion of, the experience of black children. My work focuses on black boys, but has also worked to focus on black girls.
There are also work is work that focus on this notion of, operating from, if you operate from the premises that black children are brilliant - make that assumption right out the gate, that black children are brilliant - then it impacts the way that we interact with black children. And so for me, I always operate from the premises that black children are brilliant.
So it's not lost on me about black boy joy, black girl magic. All of those things matter because it represents the brilliance of black children.
Closing Remarks
Jeffrey: Wow. The awe that all of us can bring and that we can all learn from. I love that. So I want to thank you for sharing your research with us today, Dean Berry. Your work is not only shaping the future of mathematics education, but also touching lives within and beyond the University of Arizona.
Thank you for joining us today in the Inquiry Oasis. We hope you found this conversation as inspiring and thought provoking as we did. We're back every two weeks with fresh insights and conversations, so make sure to tune in. . Until next time, keep your curiosity alive and remember, knowledge: is our oasis.