Special Episode: Transforming Indigenous Education: A Deep Dive into ITEP with Dr. Valerie Shirley and Dr. Jeremy Garcia

In this episode of The Inquiry Oasis, host Jeffrey Anthony speaks with Dr. Valerie Shirley and Dr. Jeremy Garcia, co-founding directors of the Indigenous Teacher Education Program (ITEP) at the University of Arizona College of Education. The discussion meticulously dissects the ITEP framework, philosophy, and its consequential impact on Indigenous students, schools, and communities. Exploring topics that range from the program's origins to its broader socio-cultural implications, the episode weaves a compelling narrative that underscores the need for culturally attuned and community-based approaches in education.

Topics Discussed

• Indigenous Epistemologies: The Knowledge Systems Guiding ITEP
• Philosophical Underpinnings: The Ideological Foundation of ITEP
• Cultural and Community Context: ITEP's Grounding in Indigenous Communities
• The Role of Ceremonies and Cultural Practices in Indigenous Education
• Intersecting Identities: Navigating Multiple Cultural Spaces in Education
• The Pedagogical Journey: Academic Paths and Influences of Drs. Shirley and Garcia
• ITEP's Impact and Future: Addressing Challenges and Charting New Directions

Recommended Books

• Indigenous Methodologies: Characteristics, Conversations, and Contexts by Margaret Kovach
• Culturally Sustaining Pedagogies, Teaching and Learning for justice, Justice in a Changing World by Django Paris
• Red Pedagogy: Native American Social and Political Thought by Sandy Grande

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Jeffrey Anthony: 0:01

Welcome to the Inquiry Oasis, a University of Arizona College of Education's podcast, here, in the heart of the Sonoran Desert, we bring you conversations with our esteemed faculty and staff, whose research impacts lives from southern Arizona to the far reaches of the globe. Recording from the College of Education's Digital Innovation and Learning Lab, we explore the transformative power of education in this border town, where diverse cultures and ideas converge. Weaving a tapestry of innovation with compassion and a sense of wonder. Join us as we journey through the sands of curiosity, unearthing insights that enrich and inspire. So, sit back and relax as we invite you to dive into the Inquiry Oasis. Thank you for tuning into the Inquiry Oasis. I'm your host, Jeffrey Anthony, and today we're honored , to welcome Dr. Valerie Shirley and Dr. Jeremy Garcia. Each are co founding directors of the University of Arizona College of Education Indigenous Teacher Education Program, also known as ITEP. ITEP was founded in 2016 through a U. S. Department of Education grant with the express mission to increase the number of Indigenous teachers serving Indigenous students, schools, and communities. In this episode, we will explore the ITEP framework, ITEP's philosophy, and the impact ITEP has already had on our communities. So without further ado, let's embark on this journey with both Valerie and Jeremy here in the Inquiry Oasis. It's an honor to be speaking with the both of you. And before we delve into ITEP, I was hoping you could share with our audience a bit of your background and the motivations that has informed the path you are on. Let's start with Valerie and then Jeremy.

Dr. Valerie Shirley: 1:36

Yes, I'm Valerie Shirley I'm originally from the Navajo Nation, Ganado, Arizona, specifically I'll start with my clans because that is the core of my identity. I'm, [Speaking Navajo] . And, I start with those because as I mentioned, that's the core of my identity, uh, where I'm from, the family I'm from, and the stories and cultural experiences that I've gained throughout my life. And so I think that has continued to, shape all of my different goals and, ways that I engage, my different life experiences on my journey. And I was a former teacher on the Navajo Nation as well as in Salt River, Pima, Maricopa, Indian Community. As a teacher, I felt like I was lacking some perspectives and experiences around teaching. And so I sought, my graduate degrees in curriculum studies from both, Wisconsin and Purdue. And so it was there where I felt like I started to gain a critical consciousness around society where we examine different issues of oppression and how that has really trickled into our communities, Native communities. And so, I began to think about curriculum as the way where we can convey our knowledge, our stories in Indigenous ways, and really think about critical ways that we can examine the systems and structures that are embedded in our communities and to reconceptualize those. Right now I am the co-director of the Indigenous Teacher Education Program, and through those different experiences, as well as my dissertation research, where I engaged with Diné youth in the process of developing a critical consciousness through decolonization. Those experiences have informed how I pursue indigenous teacher education. So that's a little

Jeffrey Anthony: 3:37

Jeremy, what about yourself?

Dr. Jeremy Garcia: 3:38

Yeah, it's good to be here. Thanks for creating this space. I'm Jeremy Garcia, a member of the Hopi-Tewa community, and, just a little bit of background in terms of, similar to Valerie, that I was a former educator as well, working with, the Salt River Pima Maricopa Indian Community, just after I finished my degree and my master's, I was a teacher there. And, I grew up on the Hopi community, continue to reside there and engage in cultural practices and ceremonies. And I think, like Valerie, that's the core of my identity that has informed, why I do the work that I do. And it continues to inform, the design and creation of the indigenous teacher education program. Prior to that, I. was also, faculty at the University of Wisconsin Milwaukee, where I served as an endowed professor, working alongside Dr. David Bollio, who's now, I believe, retired, professor, but a long time. advocate for Indigenous education for American Indian education. And, my time there really shed light on, the history of Indian education, as he had also held an office or position in office at the White House. But it was really thinking and learning with alongside leaders like them back in the seventies who were, really strong advocates for thinking about what sovereignty meant for education for Native communities. Watching and learning from folks like him, really helped me think more about, what needs to happen and what needs to change, given the times that we're in now. And, so that really has also in a combination with both, my own Hopi and, values as well as goals, and life experiences there, and then being a classroom teacher and then now as a professor and thinking about how my research to the intersectionality of those, I guess, core areas have really, melded together to help me think about what, what's needed. That's different, from over the centuries. So seventies to the eighties, nineties, and now we're in a late, you know, two thousands. And that really has guided me in thinking about what needs to happen. That's different. how can we do things differently for our native communities? And, certainly Valerie's work in her research also, and so in conversation about, the design of the ITEP program, as a co director as well. I think it just really has, merged together nicely.

Jeffrey Anthony: 6:07

You mentioned the I TEP program and I'm wondering if you can explain how did ITEP come to be?

Dr. Jeremy Garcia: 6:12

Well, I, ITEP came to be as a result of us being recruited here, I think. ITEP was, uh, born really, before we even arrived, at the University of Arizona, being former educators and also our research that we have, done with our dissertation back at Purdue University, and the convergence of that. And then I think the, desires to create something has always been there in terms of just learning from our research, but also seeing that something, like I said earlier, needed to be different. And I think, we had this vision and, when we got to University of Arizona, it was something that we were passionate about. And, something that we had shared with our dean at the time and our department head at the time, and, we also knew they had to be in conversation with community. So when we arrived, it was really co-constructed, I think, and born out of, a meeting we had in 2016, I believe it was 16. we, had a community meeting where we invited all members from all 22 nations and individuals who were serving, Native communities in urban contexts. And... It was through them who we listened and learned that, they were echoing the same thing that more Native teachers needed to be in our schools. and we were aware also of the demographics where, the percentages were very low, and that, that was a combination of the drive to why ITIP, I think, was designed and born out of that movement.

Jeffrey Anthony: 7:42

Fantastic. So the Indigenous Teachers Education Program has three main missions and one is to increase the number of highly qualified and skilled Indigenous teachers who will work with Indigenous children. Two, to indigenize existing elementary education curriculum and pedagogy. And three, to build sustainable relationships with and within the tribal communities. Can you expand on these and explain why these goals are so important? Maybe Valerie, if you want to start.

Dr. Valerie Shirley: 8:09

Yeah, when we created ITEP, we thought about our unique social, cultural, and political context of our communities. And in preparing our teachers, we wanted to have a program that reflected those aspects of our communities, with the 22 different Native Nations in the state of Arizona, the 22 different, knowledge systems, languages and values. We really wanted to promote that. So knowing this history of indigenous education started through the deculturalization process. Assimilation was promoted in that process that disconnected us from our indigenous knowledges, values and languages. And we wanted our program to begin moving toward how, as teachers, we take in that role and responsibility of reconnecting our youth to those knowledge systems, values, and languages. And so when we created the program, we decided to create a, framework that included those different aspects that guided the ways in which we created courses, the kinds of experiences we provided the teachers, field experiences, and our framework, helped us create our classes and it came from just our personal backgrounds, our academic backgrounds, our visions for what we wanted to see within our communities. The education system and at the core of that is really, reconnecting and promoting our indigenous knowledges, values, and languages. When we talk about increasing the number of native teachers, we knew that we just couldn't put them through the regular teacher ed program because of those political contexts, those unique knowledge systems embedded in our communities and so political systems, meaning that we have indigenous sovereignty and so how might that aspect of framing indigenous sovereignty within our teacher ed program guide how we prepare native teachers. So it's not just about increasing the number of native teachers, but it's also providing them the lens by which they can then begin to reconceptualize the structures and systems that are embedded in their communities. And so when, with one of the goals being that, we are working to build sustainable relations with different, tribal communities. We know that other tribal communities are collaborators and partners. Because they have the knowledges embedded within their communities. And to bring in those knowledges into our program, especially when our teacher candidates are coming from those communities, you know, that, that's our goal, is to reconnect them to those knowledge systems as well, too because our teacher candidates come in with different levels of knowing their language, or speaking their language, and knowing the different Indigenous knowledges. And so in that process of moving toward how they can begin to take in and take on that role of a teacher who really centers and roots and grounds indigenous epistemologies in their classrooms, it takes a number of individuals and resources to make that a possible goal.

Jeffrey Anthony: 11:32

Wow. the ITEP framework comprises of four pillars as well, and, you have the teachers as nation builders, , indigenous knowledge, values and language, critical indigenous theories and pedagogies, and justice centered education. So how do these four pillars inform the ITEP program? And why were these particular pillars important to you to include in the ITEP program?

Dr. Jeremy Garcia: 11:54

Yeah. the four pillars really are, again, born out of conversations and lived experiences of what we felt was critical for our native communities. And I think one, the teachers as native nation builders, for example, is really looking at the broader goals of native communities. When you think about sovereignty, when you think about self determination, the autonomy, for our communities to be decision makers about their own communities, but also to think more about, just the critical role that teachers play and the role that education has for our native communities to think about what does it mean to sustain and protect and to live into this ideal sovereignty. so that's where that comes from is that, we need educators to be able to prepare our youth to really have that mindset that they're part of something unique, they're part of a community that has, gone through and endured a lot of pain, and loss, when I say loss, we're talking about land, we're talking about rights, we're talking about, just the decline of language speakers. So when you think about that, it's this idea of nation building for teachers to have a role in that and to be the forefront of really, one, handling and tending to what the history is, the past, but also thinking about the present and then also thinking about the future. About what it means to support and sustain our communities given that history, and given the strengths also of our community. So Native Nation building is really falls along a bigger picture of sovereignty, self determination, but we also know that there's strength and value in our own indigenous knowledge and value systems that guide us, right? To be able to think differently about, how we navigate life and to use that as the core of decision making or the core of how they help, how teaching is going to infuse that. But it's also about, just ensuring that sustainability, giving the history again of how the erase replace was part of that process. And education was a tool, right? It was, it became the tool for that erase and replace. And, I think right now it's also about reclaiming that and centering that and engaging in a level of resurgence for that. And then you look at the critical indigenous theories, as I mentioned earlier, there's, things have shifted, as far as research, as far as theorizing and over time, and now we're in a different place where there's an abundance of great indigenous scholars who are helping us think through. how we should start to begin to, think differently about education. And I think that's the kind of work that we're drawing on. And so that's part of it. it's like, you have to have that balance of theory and practice to be able to, inform, choices and decisions around curriculum development or pedagogy is the teaching. it's growing, which is a beautiful thing. and the last one is the justice centered. And, with that, we're also thinking about what it means to be in solidarity with diverse communities, be in solidarity with other indigenous peoples, whether it's, within the U.S., but also, globally, because, there's a similar struggle about survivance in terms of sustaining our identities and sustaining and living into what is, sovereignty, living into our own process of being a nation itself or being part of this process where, we have to think more about just what we have to protect. And I think that's our identity and there's a lot embedded in that and that's relations to land , relations to water, resources. And the justice centered part is also being in solidarity with other diverse communities so that our youth aren't siloed into, a place where they're only considering themselves, but they're considering their relation to the world.

Jeffrey Anthony: 15:48

Indigenous social justice pedagogy is a framework that reconceptualizes curriculum in school serving students and relies on native educators to embrace a critical consciousness towards the stories being told and the way knowledge is conceptualized and materialized. So why is directly interrogating the methods of knowledge construction is so important for ITEP? And also. Why is this important for those of us who are embedded within the Western educational tradition?

Dr. Valerie Shirley: 16:15

That's a good question. Thank you. So the goal for ISJP is to engage youth in protecting their land and their communities. And so for teachers to be able to internalize that goal, they would have to also work to deconstruct and examine the kinds of Western structures that exist within our schools and in our communities today. So by, deconstructing and examining these structures they're putting a stop to the continued legacy of assimilation. And the kinds of curriculum that they're creating is really around social and environmental injustices that are happening within our communities. So for teachers to be able to develop curriculum around each of those, they would need to draw on critical indigenous theories to help guide that process. And these theories in moving them to action within the classroom really help students develop that critical consciousness around maybe some of these social or environmental issues happening in their communities. For example, if there's mining happening on their communities, the mining might be impacting the health of the people in the communities and the land. So how am I examining the capitalist goal of mining and profit within our communities through the curriculum, move youth to begin examining that and then thinking about how they can disrupt that and change that and move toward healing and healthy communities. And ISJP is, really about developing curriculum from our own unique context. And so the goal of having our students really, protect the land and the communities is something that we've been working on, through our program.

Jeffrey Anthony: 18:12

In your paper, Groundworking Indigenous Teacher Education Through Red Praxis, you underscore the urgency of redefining relationships to the land as an integral aspect of decolonial pedagogical practice. Can you expand on this a bit further? I really enjoyed reading that, by the way, and thanks for sending that over.

Dr. Jeremy Garcia: 18:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it. that's great. Land is a significant part of our identity as indigenous peoples. and I say that, I want to be careful of how I frame this because I don't want to exoticize it or, you know, along those lines, but it has, there are various markers about, or places, that we hold relations with play, places of prayer, places where our deities or, in my case as Hopi, where our part of who our, are, part of who we are as our identity, who visit us on, certain time of the year, several months. And they, they are messengers. There are connections between. you know, when they come, everything, all the songs and so forth are about moisture, prayers for well being. And so when they come and then we send them home, they return to a place called the Batacalvi, which is in, located in the Flagstaff area. And many non Indigenous folks see, know that mountain as, the San Francisco Peaks. And when there's a difference in ideology, a difference in thinking about that for many who are non indigenous, they see it as a ski resort, but for us as Hopi, we see that as a place of, it's their home. And so, I share that just an example to help contextualize why land is unique, has holds of deep relation. for me as Hopi, we've also. in our emergent stories of emergence, for example, come from the Grand Canyon, and that we entered this world, the fourth world, through that place, and the, we were instructed to go different directions by, the caretaker, the original home, a person who owns responsibility for this land, Masa, and that we were to go all different directions, and that we asked him for permission to live here, and so he has got his instructions where it's going to be hard. We pick the smallest ear of corn, for example. and he said, you go out and you go different ways, but you return to this homeland. But when you're out there, you leave footprints. And those are what are today, modern day now, are, you see those footprints are petroglyphs. Markings that say someone has been here. Turn home. So I story that just as an example of why land matters. and every native community tribe has relations to land, relations to certain places that, mean something. And when we think about land, there's knowledge that comes with that. There's a story behind it. There's a way of thinking. knowledge systems epistemology that comes with that. And that's why it matters. And when you think about the ways in which land has been, destroyed or demolished in some cases, for capitalist reasons, that's a form of eraser, eraser of our knowledge system. so that's part of, why this idea of taking up relations to land in this particular work in this article matter is because of the deep knowledge that rests within it and because it's also a reminder of our identities and our rights to, be a part of a particular place.

Jeffrey Anthony: 21:52

Thank you for sharing that. could you expound on how red praxis can be operationalized within educational settings? And is it possible to articulate pathways for such non Indigenous educators to engage with red praxis in a manner that respects rather than appropriates or dilutes the intricate tapestry of Indigenous ontologies?

Dr. Valerie Shirley: 22:11

Yes, I think REDD praxis is really about moving theories to action. We think about critical Indigenous theories and these critical indigenous theories are theoretical frameworks that help examine colonialism and its impacts on our communities. It examines capitalism and how it has disrupted our, relations to land, by destroying the land or, exploiting the land for profit. And so to operationalize red practice means that as teachers, we begin to draw on critical indigenous theories to help guide the kind of curriculum that we create in the classroom. And so to really hone in on the aspects of colonialism and capitalism would take some knowledge and research and to incorporate that into the classroom. I think what goes simultaneously with that are the indigenous theories, and, the indigenous theories that Jeremy just mentioned in terms of our relations to land, the philosophies embedded in the land, in the landscapes, and so how might we begin to put those. together into the classroom to inform the consciousness of our youth and to have non-native individuals come in and be in solidarity with us. I think the, what they can do is to really think about how they can draw on the scholarship of, critical theory, indigenous critical theories and pedagogies and how they might. Begin to enact that within the classroom,

Jeffrey Anthony: 23:50

A

Dr. Valerie Shirley: 23:50

difficult part for non native teachers would be to, know the depth of the indigenous knowledges and epistemologies about the land. And I think to fit, I think what we can do is facilitate the process if they're working with native youth specifically on how they can begin to, call upon different resources to bring that knowledge into the classroom for the youth. The native youth. And A lot of our work is really about, preparing Native teachers who teach in Native communities and , to really enact Native nation building that's cultivating this next generation of youth, who are closely connected to their homelands, their knowledge systems and in their communities. And in that process, they're enacting indigenous sovereignty and indigenous sovereignty is not the Western conceptions of, of political sovereignty, but it's really about enacting our indigenous knowledges, drawing on those as our traditional forms of governing ourselves, those original teachings. And so to enact red praxis, I think an individual who is in solidarity in terms of, supporting the goals of native nation building and indigenous sovereignty, non-native educators can begin to situate themselves and position themselves in relation to those goals. So if the goal is to really connect us to the depths of our worldviews that are embedded in the land, then how might they begin to do it? Because that's the goal of, education systems within our communities. And to be in solidarity with that goal of cultivating this next generation of youth, they would need to understand how to develop this critical consciousness and to navigate that process in the classroom and to bring in resources that can promote Indigenous knowledges, values, and languages as well.

Jeffrey Anthony: 25:49

Thank you for sharing that. So if you were to like jump onto a time machine here and we were like. Two to three decades in the future. What, what would the, what would you like to see as a state of indigenous education in that future?

Dr. Valerie Shirley: 26:01

I would really love to see, our teachers teaching through our indigenous philosophies, values, and languages. That's a different approach to thinking about. Being culturally responsive and incorporating culturally relevant information into the classroom, but to teach through our philosophies changes that up and positions teachers to draw on our original teachings that are embedded within our philosophy. And so that takes an entire process of reconceptualizing schooling and education and moving toward that goal of what it means to teach through our worldviews, our philosophies and our ontologies, which is our relations of who we are in relation to the land. And so that's what I would love to see in terms of the future.

Jeffrey Anthony: 26:56

Jeremy.

Dr. Jeremy Garcia: 26:57

Yeah, I mean, I think, looking forward, in the future, I think certainly not just, having the number of candidates, right, but it's what they're walking away with and how they're, as Valerie just shared, what their, mindset is being body. That identity is a native teacher and, I think, this is what makes it unique, in targeting and recruiting native teachers, not just to come into any regular program, but to come in to a program that is designed with these understandings in place to come into a program where, there's an intentional approach that recognizes that history that recognizes, the urgency in many ways, you look at language revitalization, for example, you look at, just the call to action to really live into what it means to be a teacher of a native nation and community. I am careful, also, I want to be careful about, thinking that teachers only serve and work within, their own home community in the reservations for example. We have many youth who are actually attending public schools, throughout the state. And we have to be mindful about making sure that we, prepare teachers to be also be willing to work in those contexts. But I also want to say, like, one thing we're learning and continuing to, develop is in a recognition for is that many of our candidates are also coming in and being asked to think a certain way, about education and the history of education and what it's done, the impact and the hurt that it's caused, but for them to also see even the idea of curriculum development as a decolonial process. So for the many of them are also through that very process they're being asked to consult their elders, consult their family members. What does this mean? How do I say this in this word? how do I design a curriculum around this topic? So it's a decolonial process through just the very act of creating curriculum because, if we're asking them to come from those values and knowledge systems, that means they too have to go back to their community and start to engage in those really important and many times it's difficult, right? You start to really see the layers of how colonialism has impacted an individual, over time and, it's an emotional process because it's been, for many of them, it's the first time they're being asked to do this and for many of them it's the first time they're seeing like, Wow, I don't know the answers to these questions that might have to do with a particular, idea or concept from an indigenous lens. So it's really forcing them to have to, be okay with saying I don't know and seeking the answers for that. I think it's long term. I, I see this whole process is multifaceted. It's not just about increasing the number of native teachers, but it's also addressing a bigger, concern that we've had over time and over the years in history.

Jeffrey Anthony: 29:59

Well, thank you both for those answers. We're nearing the end of our conversation and we'd like to ask our guests to recommend a book or a paper that has been meaningful to them. Could you each share one with our audience and explain how it has impacted you? And let's start with Valerie.

Dr. Valerie Shirley: 30:12

That's a great question. There's so many different, authors, Native and non-Native, who have really informed my thinking around the work that I'm currently doing. One of the ones, though, that, because I have to name one, is Margaret Kovach, and her book is called Indigenous Methodologies. And in this book, She really frames what Indigenous research is, and, I think there's like six different aspects of Indigenous research. It's the kind of research that centers Indigenous epistemologies, is decolonizing, is political, it's ethical, it situates self within our research and includes stories, indigenous stories, and it also reinforces reciprocity-how our research gives back to indigenous communities because, historically research, has become known as a dirty word within indigenous communities, as Linda Smith has mentioned in her book, Decolonizing Methodologies. And how might, our work really contribute to Indigenous, goals, especially within Indigenous education, because this book really informed my research within a youth. to really frame my work that was embedded in those six different ways of thinking about my research and really enacting it. I had to take a moment to really think deeply about each one of those. How can I center Diné epistemology within my research with Diné youth? That means I would have to go back and understand to name our Diné epistemology is Sá'aná Géibik'é Hózhón. And that takes years and years of learning that epistemology. And so, to really center that, I had to really think deeply about how my work can do that. And decolonizing is how can we begin to unpack and examine these Western structures within our schools. So that we can then move toward transformative outcomes and reconceptualizing that so that we can collectively center our indigenous philosophies because Western schooling has disconnected us from those philosophies, as I mentioned earlier. So how might we become reconnected to those philosophies? And, there's been numerous It's books and publications that have really influenced my thinking, but I think it was this one in particular that really helped me frame my research in those deep theoretical ways.

Jeffrey Anthony: 32:48

Fantastic. And Jeremy.

Dr. Jeremy Garcia: 32:50

Yeah, I would certainly value the book that Valerie mentioned. I think for me, there, there's several, like, just as Valerie shared, there's an abundance of work that has, pushed and moved me to think differently about the work that I do. There's, for example, I'll name two. One is, recent work by, professor Django Paris, for example, has several books out, but it's really, his, his work has really now, changed the landscape of education and in his work, the book is called: Culturally Sustaining Pedagogies, Teaching and Learning for Justice in a Changing World. And I think it's shaped in a way where, it's recognizing the ways in which youth, families and communities come into a learning space knowledge. And so it's not so much about being culturally relevant, but it's also about being, acknowledging that they're, they have knowledge and how do we sustain that? so that's one work that has really influenced me. The other, in particular, that actually is informed, red praxis is red pedagogy. And that, comes from a different, lens that helps us think about and problematize and think through the ways in which capitalism has informed and not informed, but has that has impacted our identities as native peoples. And so within her work, Sandy Grande takes, the readers through several chapters of looking at, relations to land sovereignty as well as in, women. the ways in which, women are exploited and in the ways and in the connection to how capitalism is a driving force behind that, the labor force, for example. And so when you start to read in those kind of ways, you start to see, the injustices in that are impacting our native communities. And red pedagogy is one that, that I would recommend because it. It's relationship to analyzing capitalism. It's not just limited to thinking about indigenous knowledge systems, but it's also in a contemporary way thinking about, how do we remain and continue to be, resilient in terms of being protectors of our communities and what that means in a variety of ways, not just of land, but even knowledge systems, as well as our communities in terms of labor.

Jeffrey Anthony: 35:06

Thank you so much for sharing those. Valerie and Jeremy, the scope and depth of your dedication to revitalizing indigenous education through ITEP is not only deeply enlightening, but also critically imperative. From the intricate nuances of indigenous knowledge and epistemology to the broader strokes of justice centered education speaks to a transformative praxis that seems urgently necessary in our current educational landscape. And thank you listeners for joining us today in The Inquiry Oasis. We hope our conversation with Valerie and Jeremy has inspired you as much as us. And remember, we're back on the first and third Wednesdays of every month with fresh insights and conversations. So be sure to tune in until next time, keep your curiosity alive and remember, knowledge is our oasis.