Ep 12 Dr. Jonathan Tullis: Cognitive Crossroads: Unraveling Memory and Learning

In this episode of Inquiry Oasis, we delve into the fascinating world of cognitive processes in education with Dr. Jonathan Tullis, Associate Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Arizona College of Education. Dr. Tullis, a prominent figure in the Cognition and Memory in Education and Learning Lab, shares insights from his groundbreaking research on the interaction between memory and learning environments, with a special focus on "Remindings." We explore his NSF-funded CAREER grant and its implications for optimizing learning strategies, aligning them with our natural cognitive tendencies. Dr. Tullis’s work is a critical beacon in understanding how cognitive processes shape effective learning environments, contributing significantly to the field of educational psychology.

Topics Discussed:

• Journey to the Forefront: Dr. Tullis’s Path in Educational Psychology
• The CAMEL Lab: Pioneering Research in Cognition and Memory
• The Essence of 'Remindings': Transforming Educational Strategies
• Cognitive Environments and Learning: An Intersecting Realm
• Memory Optimization: Strategies for Effective Learning
• Unearthing Discoveries: Surprises in Cognitive Research
• Future Visions: Integrating Cognitive Principles in Education

Book Recommendation:

• Make It Stick: The Science of Successful Learning – by Peter Brown, Henry Roediger, Mark McDaniel

Transcript

Host: Jeffrey Anthony: 0:01

Welcome to the Inquiry Oasis, the University of Arizona College of Education's podcast, here in the heart of the Sonoran Desert. We bring you conversations with our esteemed faculty members and staff, whose research impacts lives from southern Arizona to the far reaches of the globe. We explore the transformative power of education in this border town, where diverse cultures and ideas converge, weaving a tapestry of innovation with compassion and a sense of wonder. So join us as we journey through the sands of curiosity, unearthing insights that enrich and inspire. Sit back and relax as we invite you to dive into the Inquiry Oasis. Welcome to another episode of the Inquiry Oasis. I'm your host, Jeffrey Anthony, and today, we have the privilege of speaking with Dr. Jonathan Tullis, Associate Professor of Educational Psychology and Director of the Cognition and Memory in Education and Learning Lab at the University of Arizona College of Education. Dr. Tullis's work probes the intricate interplay between cognitive processes and educational practices, seeking to harmonize our understanding of memory with the learning environments we cultivate. His research, which spans from the benefits of computer programming on mathematical learning to the nuances of metacognition, is pushing the boundaries of how we optimize learning by aligning it with the natural tendencies of our cognition. In this session, we'll particularly unpack the fascinating dynamics of "Remindings," a central focus of Dr. Tullis's recently funded NSF career grant, and delve into its potential to reshape our educational strategies. So, without further ado, let's dive into this journey of exploration and discovery with Dr. Tullis here in the Inquiry Oasis. Doctor tell us. It's an honor to have you with us today.

Dr. Jonathan Tullis: 1:47

Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to have this chat.

Host: Jeffrey Anthony: 1:50

You bet. So to begin, can you tell us about the journey that brought you to the forefront of research and memory and learning?

Dr. Jonathan Tullis: 1:57

Yeah. I grew up in a family of educators. My mom is an educator. I've got a lot of aunts and uncles that were, teachers, cousins that are teachers. So I really always understood the power and promise of education. So after college, I got an MED in high school science and taught high school physics and chemistry for a couple of years in San Antonio. it was incredibly tough work, so I really do appreciate teachers. and so I didn't last too, too many years as a high school teacher, but I really loved to think about how, to help students learn. I was really fascinated to think about it. How students remember information, how students access and use previously learned information. Um, and so I really wanted to learn more about that stuff. therefore I entered a PhD program in cognitive psychology at the University of Illinois and found that I really loved being a scholar in cognitive psychology where I could use creative ways of testing different theories about student learning. I could gather and analyze data to show what the best ways to help students were. It was just really a great fit for me.

Host: Jeffrey Anthony: 3:09

Well, thank you for sharing that. So your research at the CAMEL lab, which is short for the cognition and memory and education and learning lab is quite groundbreaking from when I've read to prepare for this. And can you give our listeners an overview of how memory and learning environments intersect and the role "Remindings" play in this relationship?

Dr. Jonathan Tullis: 3:28

Yeah, I'd love to. So I take the view that cognition reflects that intersection between the mind and the environment. In other words, the environment is largely shaping what we remember, what we learn, what we can transfer and apply in later situations. So when we do examine learning, when we do examine cognition, it's really vital to understand that context, that environment that it's happening in. Two of the major aspects of the learning environment, that I really examine and focus on, and that affect Remindings, are the particular examples that we are exposed to, that we study, that we learn, and the timing and schedules, that we see those examples. So that first category, the initial examples that we encounter or study, those initial examples have a really important place in our cognition. they largely shape, our ability to solve future problems and how we categorize future examples or problems. Let me provide an example of that, where research is showing that, when novice physics students are trying to solve novel problems or new problems, the problem they're solving reminds them of prior problems that they have previously encountered, that they had previously solved. And so these physics novices then use the prior problems to help them solve the new problems that they're encountering. So research is showing that these superficial features of the problems they're encountering are driving the reminding process or the connections that students are building or creating. In other words, if one problem has an inclined plane, then those novice or early physics students will try to use a prior problem that has an inclined plane to solve the new problem, even if they're about very different actual principles, like even if one is about conservation of energy and one problem is about momentum, if they share those superficial features like inclined planes or like a pulley or other examples like that, they will try to use the prior problem, they'll be reminded of the prior problem and try to use it to solve the novel problem. So this is really important for teachers to be thinking about. what are the specific examples and instances that we're providing to novices, particularly when introducing a novel concept? Now the second major aspect of that learning environment that I'm really interested in and that I study And that is crafted by the teacher in most cases, is the number of exposures to the idea and particularly the schedule of those exposures or the schedule of the practice that they get. So lots and lots of prep, lots and lots of research is showing that spacing out or distributing practice, distributing exposure to concepts is really crucial to the long term retention and use of those concepts. Rather than massing or cramming things in a short period of time, it's actually really essential that we are distributing practice, that we are spacing practice out, and not just doing it all at one time, but coming back to it. And so these reminding frameworks that I study or that I focus on suggest that spacing out or distributing practice is really important because it forces learners to exert a little bit more effort. To draw the connections across time, to retrieve what they had previously done, and that extra effort or extra difficulty is actually really useful or helpful for their future ability to remember and to apply that learning.

Host: Jeffrey Anthony: 6:59

That's fascinating. in my former career, before I started working at the University of Arizona, I was a professional musician and I noticed when I was a serious, student, that if I spaced out, my practices so that I wasn't practicing the same, let's say, very complicated odd meter. I was a drummer. if I gave a day or two in between, instead of practicing every day, that some things would click. what you just said, resonated with my own lived experience there. So that's fascinating. so your career grant which is titled ' That Reminds me the Causes and Consequences of Remindings,' illuminates a fascinating aspect of human cognition. It touches on the very essence of how new experiences can spontaneously trigger memories of past events, which you were just describing. What inspired you to explore this phenomenon, and how do you anticipate this research will enhance our understanding of learning and memory within the educational sphere?

Dr. Jonathan Tullis: 7:49

Yeah, so really long story short, it's basically the first project that I worked on when I was a graduate student. My two advisors just put me on the project and said, go for it, start learning, start figuring this stuff out. And, it really clicked with me, it really, resonated with me. I see, I saw it as really important, and so I've just really, haven't stopped working on it since that time. As you said, reminding is when we are bringing back prior knowledge or previously learned information and applying it to a new situation, right? So we're um, using what we previously learned to tackle novel problems. These remindings are really a fundamental or critical aspect of human cognition. Rather than thinking of them as a fluke or as something not to really worry about or consider, I try to highlight how they are really important and underlies some of the most basic and consequential memory and cognitive phenomenon that we know, including, why do repetitions of information benefit learning? Why does distributing information help learning, right? So some people have argued that these are not just a phenomenon that happens just occasionally or randomly, but rather, they're really the crucial part of this cognition that allows us to use prior knowledge in new novel situations. But beyond that, our remindings may also be really important because they might be able to produce generalized knowledge. In other words, it might not just be about using that specific idea or concept and applying it in a new situation, but through the process of building that connection and through the process of applying it in a new situation, we might be generalizing information, right? We might be abstracting away from those specific examples and creating some more flexible general knowledge, which is really crucial, right? So this sort of goes in the face of a lot of the work in cognitive psychology, especially in memory and even problem solving, which really stresses or highlights the need for studying unrelated concepts so that you can assess each concept individually so that your prior knowledge doesn't unduly influence your memory for these new things that we're studying and learning. The work that I do says, well, that's not really realistic, right? When we learn new stuff, it's related to other stuff. When we learn a new information, it's connected to what we already know. And it's those connections, that really matter. It's the relationships between the information, that makes a big impact on, what we know, what we learn, and what we can use in the future. So rather than trying to, eliminate all relationships between what we're learning and studying in order to get a better understanding of how we remember, I am, tackling or trying to figure out, well, what about those relationships? How do those relationships really impact memory? How do making those connections between instances and examples? Help us understand emerging themes. And that's really what I see is, what we should be doing in education, right? In the educational sphere, we don't want to be learning disjointed pieces of information. We want to be building connections. We want to be able to create clear and important, accurate categories that we can solve and apply, information in new settings. So, yeah, that's, I think, in terms of impacting the educational sphere, one of those, one of the basic building blocks, in education is really acquiring knowledge and concepts, ultimately remembering and applying those later. And so, remindings or building those connections, is really crucial to that. But then even more challenging than that is creating knowledge that generalizes beyond those learned examples. That's often called the problem of transfer, right? When students learn something, they don't often transfer it in ways that we would hope that they would transfer it. They don't often apply it to related problems. So reminding is one, one explanation or one perspective about how we can try to support that process in learners. We can try to support them building connections so that they can then abstract away those themes so they can then apply it in new settings.

Host: Jeffrey Anthony: 12:10

That's fascinating. It reminds me a little bit of John Dewey's concept of habits and how habits can be used to inform how you can react in a specific context where you don't necessarily are on autopilot, but the habits you have will can inform new ways to engage within your environment.

Dr. Jonathan Tullis: 12:28

Yeah, that's really interesting to think about. So that's something that we can examine in the future is that are people, are there some people that have these habits where they are looking out for connections, where they are looking out for how is this new information related to what I already know and whether those, maybe that's an individual difference between learners and, what are the consequences or what drives those individual differences even?

Host: Jeffrey Anthony: 12:53

Considering the context of our discussion and its relevance to the academic community we're at here at the University of Arizona. Why do you believe this research holds significance for the University of Arizona?

Dr. Jonathan Tullis: 13:03

Yeah, I think, one of the core missions, of the University of Arizona is, effective, efficient, education of our students, and these remindings play a big role in many different layers or levels of that instruction. So one of my graduate students, Jiayu Li, for example, is working on a study that's looking on how students control or regulate their own study, right? So when they go off and they are making their own study choices, when they're trying to master or learn a topic on their own outside of the classroom, they're, they engage in specific study strategies. What he's found is that you can teach them some study skills in a particular domain, right? You can teach them, oh, this is what we want to be doing, is some metacognitive reflection about what you've learned well and what you haven't learned well. What he finds is that if you teach them that in a specific domain, that domain that I can serve as a reminder in the future and can, reinstantiate those study strategies later. But it also serves as sort of a limitation such that they don't extend those study strategies and self regulation processes beyond that domain, right? So if you teach it in, he's done like biology, then it doesn't apply to history. So even though these are some very general self regulation study strategies, that context can serve as a reminder or even limitation about, how you are applying those study strategies. more broadly, I argue, that there are some pretty simple learning strategies that do rely on these principles of reminding that really can make instruction more effective and efficient. We've talked, here a little bit about, distributing practice, about spacing that practice out. and that's relying or incorporating a little bit of reminding in your study schedule, which is really crucial to, long term retention and application of the material. But another big, effective and efficient strategy that is likely really related is called retrieval practice. And that's just where we, where students are practicing getting information and concepts out of long term memory as a means of changing their long term memory. So just by practicing and trying to get that information out, you're actually improving your ability to do that in the future. Again, that's really related to reminding because we think of reminding as a process of retrieving prior instances and using them in the current situation. And so that process of reminding is really related to that retrieval practice again, which is one of those most effective and efficient strategies for long term retention.

Host: Jeffrey Anthony: 15:49

Fantastic. During the course of your research, has there been any discoveries or outcomes that have taken you by surprise?

Dr. Jonathan Tullis: 15:55

Yeah, so many, right? That's why we do this research. It's often really surprising, sometimes in really, exciting ways. It's in really disappointing ways. but yeah, there's a couple that really stick out. one, which I did during my postdoc contrasting the process of reminding with an explicit compare and contrast process. Explicit compare and contrast are thought to be pretty useful for students in terms of generalizing knowledge. You're looking at two examples of, a deeper concept, and you're trying to abstract away what makes them similar or what makes them different, and that's thought to be, again, a really efficient, effective way of generalizing knowledge. We compared that process, the compare and contrast process, With a more reminding related process where they would study individual items one at a time, and we would ask them, does this make you think back to anything that you've previously studied? And so what we found was, that, maybe not surprisingly, the think back one at a time structure, the reminding structure, did produce better memory for the studied items. So making them think back. And retrieve or be reminded of those prior episodes was really good for memory, but more maybe more surprisingly, the reminding think back one at a time structure also produced more accurate generalization of those ideas. So where we thought the compare and contrast would be really useful for generalizing, we found that compare and contrast actually produced really broad generalizations where students were generalizing beyond what was appropriate, where the one at a time produced more appropriate generalizations. Another example here. that shows a little bit of the limitations of remindings or a little bit of limitation of building connections is that the reminding process may actually impair memory for the details of the context of where you learn something. So when you study these, discrete individual ideas when you become reminded, it might enhance the commonalities, between those two examples, but it may actually impair the differences. It may actually impair the memory for the differences or details between the two examples. So, yeah, it's really interesting to think that might be actually useful because, we might. that might be the start of the generalization process to really focus on what's the commonalities are and try to inhibit or impair memory for the differences and distinctions that maybe don't matter as much, but it was really interesting to see so pretty clear evidence that when you are studying those related episodes and you are building those connections between that related information, there begins to be a process where you do lose some memory for the details or context.

Host: Jeffrey Anthony: 18:47

Wow. Our memories, our brains are just fascinating,

Dr. Jonathan Tullis: 18:50

aren't they? Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

Host: Jeffrey Anthony: 18:53

So if you could glimpse into the future, how do you imagine the principles of remindings and memory optimization being integrated into daily educational practices?

Dr. Jonathan Tullis: 19:02

Well, that's a huge interesting question. I love it. It's, uh, there's a lot of big, fun, interesting questions that persist, or that still exist in my research program. I get, I can think of about 20 different projects or ideas that I currently have right now about, trying to understand these processes a little bit more. but, in the short term, I can definitely see how our mindings may impact, educational practices by providing a little bit more guidance about how should we be structuring the organization examples when we are teaching students new concepts, how should we be scheduling, the repetitions of those concepts and those practice of those concepts. Right, because at the moment, we can see that, standard practices probably aren't structured in the most effective ways, right? So when we look at current textbooks, for example, they often do a lesson, let's say a math textbook, on the addition of fractions. And then they'll do a whole bunch of practice problems on fraction addition. What we would argue for reminding is that... that's not the best strategy. You don't want to be doing the lesson and then all of your practice immediately after the lesson. Instead, you want to do the lesson, a few of the practice problems, and then revisit those practice problems throughout, future instruction. So again, this sort of idea of distributing practice, there's good, again, good evidence for distributing that practice to enhance the reminding processes, to enhance the retrieval. When I think, of really future, long term daily educational practices, I began to think about, is it possible that we can begin to tailor some of our learning experiences to individuals, right, to an individual's particular experiences, to their particular interactions with the materials, in order to better support their long term retention. So can we account for that initial learning? Can we account for those initial experiences, and program out when might be the best time to revisit this topic? Or what might be the best next example to be providing to this learner in order to help them make the connection, in order to help them, generalize it across those episodes?

Host: Jeffrey Anthony: 21:26

Well, So lastly, we like to ask our guests for a book or paper that has inspired you and can you share one with us and maybe explain why it was so important to you?

Dr. Jonathan Tullis: 21:35

Thank you. Sure, I can talk about, sort of a more accessible sort of popular press book that's really, really fascinating and interesting. It's called, 'Make It Stick, The Science of Successful Learning.' it's by Rodney Roediger. It's just a really, interesting, fun read about, the cognitive science behind different learning strategies and about why these different learning strategies are really useful. It proposes some of these ideas um, that challenge a lot of what we think or what we intuit are useful strategies, that end up not being as useful or effective. And, really focuses on strategies that introduce what we call desirable difficulties into learning. So it might slow down learning, it might make learning a little bit more challenging initially. But it, that those difficulties that it talks about are actually really useful and effective for, the long term retention, the long term application of the knowledge. So we talk about an example here that we've been talking about today is a little bit of that retrieval practice. When students study, they overwhelmingly prefer or say that they study by rereading, right? They look back to their text, they reread it, they highlight it sometimes, they underline it. Because it feels really fluent. It feels really good. It feels like you're learning a lot by doing that. The desirable difficulties perspective says it might feel fluent, but it's not actually deeply engaging. It's not a deeply engaging encoding strategy here. Sometimes our deeply engaging encoding strategies need you to put a little bit more effort into it to make those connections to process it more deeply. So that's sort of the framework of the ideas that it talks about in the book. what are the effective learning strategies and how does it challenge some of our intuitions about what, Makes good learning.

Host: Jeffrey Anthony: 23:31

Well, that's fascinating. I can actually see some conflict between our economy and this style of learning where you want to efficiency and to get through things as quickly and as accurately as possible. But if we look at a longer time frame, we can build more capacity through more, engaging learning. So in the future, we could actually be, more productive. But, I see that tension there between these temporal frames, I guess you could

Dr. Jonathan Tullis: 23:54

say, there's really a tension there. Because when you look at sort of short term retention or short term learning, it's not the same as long term retention or long term learning, right? The short term benefits of some of these strategies are really good, but they fade very quickly, right? So just because you've mastered it in the very short term does not actually mean it's going to persist in the long term. And so sometimes we have to slow down that initial learning. Sometimes you have to make the initial learning a little bit more challenging or difficult in the desirable ways that the book talks about in order to really improve. The long term, learning and retention and application of those, concepts.

Host: Jeffrey Anthony: 24:37

fantastic. Now, Dr. Tullis, this conversation has been a profound journey through the cognitive landscape and shape of how we learn and remember your work is not just a deep dive into the mechanisms of memory, but also a beacon guiding away toward a more effective and more intuitive learning experiences. We look forward to witnessing how your research will continue to inform educational methodologies and transform our approach to learning. And thank you listeners. We hope you found today's discussion with Dr. Tullis as illuminating as we did, and that it inspires you to consider the complexities of cognition in your own learning endeavors. As always, we're back on the first and third Wednesdays every month with fresh insights and conversations, so be sure to tune in. Until next time, keep your curiosity alive. And remember, knowledge is our oasis.