Inquiry Oasis Season 2: JD Lopez Part 2

Join us for Part II of Dean Berry's interview with Associate Professor, Dr. JD Lopez as they continue their conversation on statistical erasure, the notion of understanding giving back, and Native Nation building.

Additionally, they will discuss the "achievement gap" and where the gap really lies as well as Dr. Lopez's personal background that led him to higher education.

Dr. Lopez's recommended reading from this episode: God is Red by Vine Deloria Jr.

Dr. Django Paris's work is mentioned again, as well as connecting his work with Dr. Gloria Ladson Billings' work.

Transcript

Jeffrey Anthony:

Welcome to the Inquiry Oasis, the University of Arizona College of Education's podcast here in the heart of the Sonoran desert. We bring you conversations with our esteemed faculty members and staff, whose research impacts lives from Southern Arizona to the far reaches of the globe. We explore the transformative power of education in this border town. Where diverse cultures and ideas converge, weaving a tapestry of innovation with compassion and a sense of wonder.

So, join us as we journey through the sands of curiosity, unearthing insights that enrich and inspire. Sit back and relax. As we invite you to dive into the Inquiry Oasis. 

Dean Berry:

Welcome to the Inquiry Oasis. I'm Robert Berry. I'm the Dean of the College of Education, and this is part two of our episode with Dr. JD Lopez. And in part two, we will continue our discussion to discuss this notion of statistical erasure, and we also will talk about this notion of understanding giving back. And finally, we will touch on this notion of Native Nation building. And so, digging deeper into Dr. Lopez's work and his work around these three aspects, I'm excited about our continued conversation in part two of our interview with Dr. J. D. Lopez. 

Dean Berry:

Let me ask this question. So, if there, what do you believe in your research as it kind of think about the impact on the broader scope of the body of research nationally and for students, for faculty and what do you what are the takeaways you want folks to have? 

Dr. JD Lopez:

Yeah, for me. I think it's the approach to collecting data. I think I want people to be critical of the datasets that they're using also. Um, one of the papers I wrote, um, maybe like, it was, it was a while ago, maybe seven, eight years ago, um, was about the limitations of post-secondary federal datasets. And, you know, it was, it was such an eye opener for me because I also sit on the National Indian Ed Study on the technical review panel. And so, I get to, the items in that and, you know, I see how we're collecting the data and whatnot. And I'm like, oh, it just, I see so many limitations with it. And one of them, you know, being that. You know, with tribal affiliation, for example, is one of them. 

You know, if, if we don't know what tribal affiliation is, and we were to take a simple random sample of the United States, of all the Native communities, we're going to get a sample full of the largest tribes within the United States. Probably like, you know, Cherokee, maybe Sioux, maybe Navajo, maybe, um, you know, Apache, some of these larger tribes, Lumbee maybe, maybe grouped in there. Um, and so. When we look at that, what's supposed to be a national representative sample of all the Native communities in the United States, and we begin to analyze it, and then we begin to make federal policies from it, it's actually only based off of like, four or five, maybe ten really big tribes, right?

But then like there's tribes like my own community, which is, you know, 3,400 members who could be completely excluded from any federal policy or consideration within that policy. And to me, that's something that diminishes tribal sovereignty, which, you know, is, is, is the right of, uh, of, of tribes to determine how they're going to self-govern themselves, right. 

And so it's like, well, if we're all supposed to be, you know, tribal nations and we're should all have a voice. And it just doesn't look like it's, it's represented in those samples. And so, you know, for me, I like people, when they read my work, to think about those types of things like, oh yeah, I could see.

Or when you're looking at outcomes and you're like, oh, I really like this. You know, let's, let's do reading and math again. You know, if you're using the knee study and you're like, okay, that's great. We need it. We need to know that. But one of the things that it is, it, it bothers me. a bit is if you were to go back and see that Meriam Report in 1928, and then you look at the Broken Promises Report, you know, they always show like native people down here and then white people here and they make that comparison.

And they're like, oh, that's the achievement gap. You know? And it's like, there's an achievement gap. And I'm like, okay, that thing doesn't look like it moved in 90 years. Like, really? I'm like, I don't see any difference. And it's frustrating to me. I'm like, well, you know, and that's when I go back to this idea of educational outcomes, maybe we're measuring the wrong things. 

You know, if we're a measure nonnative student or say non-Quechan students against Kwanamii, then maybe we'd be up here and they would be down here. And then like, look, look at your achievement gap now, you know? And I think that's something that I, I want people to realize is, you know, is going back to the idea of what Django Paris and Alim said is, is like, you know, educational outcomes need to be based on the values of the community.

So how do we begin to do that? How do we begin to develop data sets that, that recognize that and develop instruments that could do that? And again, not with this notion of like, well, we're, we're, we're, we're, we hate reading and math. We hate persistence. We hate these things, but it's like. You know, how do we, we measure those in addition to some of these other outcomes?

And I think that's really important, you know, for us, you know, to do. And so, I think when I think about that body of work, those are just a few examples that I really like to bring out. 

Dean Berry:

So, this notion of, of an achievement gap, it also, you're reminding me of, you know, it's sort of like Gloria Ladson-Billings work. And you, you talked a little bit about the land debt, but she talks about education debt as well.

And one of the things I think about is this notion of the gap in performance between groups of students, or is there another way to re-envision this and re-envision it if it's based on our values? And it's based on actual performance relative to one's values. Is it a gap and, and does, as that gap sits within the community, or does it sit within those who make decisions and develop policy?

And that's where the gap may lie as I think about these things. So, who owns the gap? And so, and so it's making, here I am talking, so I'm asking the question, but who owns the gap? And so, for me, I ask that question, who owns it is, I don't know if it's, if the members of the community [that] owns the gap rather than those who make the policies, who makes the decision who owns that gap? Because there may not be adequate support.

Funding all those things that you described in the Meriam Report and Broken Promises that persisted over 90 years and we're still having these same conversations. And so, who can, who owns that gap? Maybe it's not the community themselves, maybe it's those who make those decisions, who own that gap. 

Dr. JD Lopez:

Yeah. And I, I, I think you, you really bring up an interesting point because, you know, how do you begin to own it? You know, in a sense. And I think that's where I, I, I think about economic development for the tribe and how that's related, uh, you, you know, higher education, post-secondary persistence, how do we begin to create our own ecosystems that are self-sustaining where we're not reliant on anybody else. And I think a lot of native communities were lucky because we have a very, you know, for most of us, we have very specific land, territories.

And we have very specific, you know, laws, you know, we're not governed by the state. You know, we have some federal legislation that we have to follow, obviously. Um, but we have a lot of leniency to be able to do a lot of things that we want to. And, you know, I think higher educations, you know, intricately, um, related to nation building, you know, and how do you begin to, to do those types of things?

And to your point, how do you use that to be able to own that, that gap? Because, you know, if, you know, one of the questions I've often wondered, and I, I forget the number off. There's this metric, it's like, Arizona tribes have given like, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars, I think that's a safe number to say, over a ten-year span to Arizona state education systems.

And you know, when you think about those numbers, and you're like, oh wow, the gaming industry that's from tribal communities have given this much money to the state of Arizona for education. You're like, I think they owe us something, you know, I think we should own that gap, you know. And, you know, it's like, well, how do we begin to ask for those things? Or how do we begin to advocate or demand at some point, you know, and I think those are conversations that we should have, you know. 

Dean Berry:

So, I, I appreciate, you know, we can talk on and on and on, but I do have another question. One, one, I would say one final question. And so, think about one book or one paper that's meaningful to you that you would recommend to the audience and that has an impact on you.

Dr. JD Lopez:

Yeah, that's, that's a really good question. I feel like I've read so much, you know, like all of us, I guess, you know, there, there's a lot of books. I think when you asked me that question, the first one that sticks out in my mind, I was, um, maybe 21, 22. I was hanging out in Costa Rica for like four months and, um, I, I ended up in this library. 

And when I was going through the library, I was just kind of looking through books and there was this book by, it was, it was called God is Red by Vine Deloria [Jr.]. And it was about this Native author who, who was also a faculty who hadn't, hadn't had any clue about it. Like I said, I was like probably 21. I hadn't really studied a lot of, uh, American Indian literature during that time, academic literature.

I was like, oh, this is interesting to me. And, he really wrote at the intersection of being his Native identity, kind of, uh, he was a lawyer also, or he at least studied the law pretty, pretty, uh, um, I guess uh, frequently. I don't know how you, I wanted to say that, but, you know, he was well versed in the law, like any, any law.And then also, um, he was a theologian. 

And I thought this was a really interesting, you know, intersection he had. And then from what, from what I remember, he was like part of, he was a pastor or some kind of like clergy member. And I remember reading through that book and, you know, seeing how he was a part of like Christianity, but also challenging it at the same time. Challenging, you know, capitalism, challenging, you know, different things and doing it from this perspective of being an Indigenous person.

And I thought, wow, this is all really compelling to me. And I thought that book was, um, you know, I would say like a journey into exploring more of more of that and seeing how people are looking at, at the world as a whole, you know. And, I did, you know, a little bit of my background. I, I, I'm, my homelands are, are Quechan, which is in Fort Yuma, but I grew up in Phoenix.

And I grew up, grew up in a predominantly white neighborhood in Phoenix, uh, most of my life. And, the reason why I grew up in Phoenix, though, is because my parents both worked for a small college called American Indian College. My mom was an elementary education chair, and then my father, he was an administrator, started off as dean of students, and then finished his last six years as the president of the college.

So, I was raised around higher education. My entire life, you know, I was, I was literally born into it. It was a Native college. So, I was raised around native students my entire life. And so when I think about this body of work, it's more than just what I've read and, you know, kind of collected and analyzed. But it's also something that I've lived throughout my childhood, my adolescence and, um, you know. But I think about that college often because the way it started, it was, uh, I think it was called American Indian Bible Institute or something of the sort.

And it started in the 50s as a seminary for Native people because there was a White woman, a missionary from, I think she was from Ohio. She had come to Arizona and, you know, trying to evangelize or whatever they were doing. And as they were converting some of the Native people into Christianity, she was like, you oh, well, we want to send them to seminary.

Well, you know, it's like the fifties and sixties, they're not going to let them go into seminary. And so, she's like, well, I'm going to start a Bible college specifically for Native people. And she started that college in the fifties and, you know, they started having groups of Native college students. Like here, they're having folks from, you know, like Salt River Pima community and so forth and, um, some other, the other Tohono O'odham and whatnot.

And so, they started going to that college. The college over the years developed, you know, in the late eighties. They had a big, you know, accreditation boomed, the American Indian Bible Institute became the American Indian Bible College and eventually American Indian College. 

And so, you know, I think about the processes of how you, you know, begin to interrogate those different identities of saying like, oh, okay, well, I see this, the Christianity. I see the Native identity coming into this, and, and, you know, I see like some of these, these legal, the political identities of all of this too, and it's all kind of being immersed into one place. And so, all that to say is when I read that, you know, God is Red, it kind of brought that, that all those experiences to light for me and how I wanted to move about the work of like, you know, being able to say like, well, I want to talk to, you know, all like as many identities as I can, as many different backgrounds as I can, you know, that was really important to me, you know?

Dean Berry:

So, one last thing, is there anything that you want to add to or something I didn't ask you that you want to respond to now? Um, is there anything that I missed? 

Dr. JD Lopez:

Uh, I think this is, you know, I appreciate being here. Um, you know, I do this. I love what I do. You know, uh, I know I, I don't want to diminish anybody's experience, but I feel very privileged to be in this position. I don't take it for granted, you know? 

I grew up doing labor and landscaping, you know, 13, 14, you know, starting and then working in Arizona's hot sun during the summer. You know, having to wake up at 4 AM and, you know, working 8–10-hour days. And so, I feel very privileged to be a professor, you know, or associate professor. You know, I don't want to offend anybody by saying this job is easy, but it's pretty nice working in air conditioning and not really having only, I only have to check in with you, I think once a year. So, that's not bad to only have to see your boss once a year, which is good.

But, you know, I feel like I really love that about this job. Um, I feel privileged. Um, I think one of the things I always like to say is, you know, I'm really inspired by my, my parents. I was lucky to have some really great parents. Um, my mother, uh, like I said, she was a faculty member, but she, she grew up in a one bedroom mud house.

You know, and in the middle of our, of the Sonoran Desert down there on our reservation. And you know, my mom, she's, I don't think she'd mind me saying she'll be 71 this year. And so, um, but you know, she, she's not that far back and that's, she grew up in that type of environment. And, you know, due to, you know, the boarding school era and some of what happened to her parents, you know, she grew up in a, in a fairly abusive home.

And, you know, she had to overcome a lot of things, you know. She, you know, was abused in ways we don't want to imagine a little girl to be abused. She says, you know, I had one dress, no shoes, you know, and, you know, I was looking, always hungry, I was looking for something to eat. And she had her brothers and sisters there with, with her, and they had a lot, just a lot of tragedy. And, um, you know, as she got older, she, around 12 years old, you know, that tragic life would kind of culminated a little bit with her father passed away of alcohol poisoning just outside their, their mud house beneath the mesquite tree.

And she said she was the one that found, found him there. And, you know, I, I can't imagine, you know, growing up in an environment like that where it's like; man, I'm like, you know, I'm poor, you know, I don't have anything, my father passed away. You know, you feel like everything is lost and, you know, my mom's told us this story, you know, throughout the years and I'm like, wow, this that's hard.

And then she said, but there was a group of college students in that same, you know, time frame that, you know, her father passed away. They came to her reservation, and they were like, you know, Hey, you know, they're from Tohono O'odham, uh, led by a man named Jake Escalani. And, uh, you know, he, he came to our reservation and he brought a group of college students and he was like, hey, you know.

You could go to college. And she was like, oh man, they look like me, they smell like me, they eat like me, you know, laugh like me. And she, you know, at that age of 12 years old, effectively changed the entire legacy of our family. You know, she said, “I’m going to go to college.” And my dad was a knucklehead at the time. They'd known each other since fourth grade, because my dad failed the fourth grade. My mom was coming up from third, and so they've been together for a long time, 50 plus years. And um, they've, they've known each other since the fourth grade though, and you know, my dad was a knucklehead. He was like one of those guys, like smoking cigarettes at Upward Bound, getting kicked out for drinking in the dorms kind of guy.

And uh, you know, she was like, well, if you want to be with me, you got to go to college too. And so, you know, they both decided we're going to go to college. 

My mom took off, you know, went to Texas for undergrad, and then, uh, my dad was in Phoenix. They both graduated, they taught, my mom taught up in the White Mountain Apache Reservation for a while and then eventually made their way down to American Indian College in Phoenix. And, you know, she trained hundreds and hundreds of Native teachers after that, replicating herself. And, um, I think about that legacy that my mother and my father both left for me about this idea of like, wow, my mom's, you know, made such an impact on just, you know, the Native community as a whole.

I'm like, if I could just do a fraction of that, you know. And, uh, you know, I could call myself successful and same for my father. He's been there for a lot of people. And, you know, now I see my mom, you know, she's, she's great. And I think about that little Indian girl, sometimes she was a little Native girl, just, you know, no shoes, one dress. And now she's like, you know, walking around with her Louis Vuitton purse. Or, you know, driving around her Cadillac Escalade Platinum, you know, or whatever it is. You know, I think that was, it's a cool experience to see my mom kind of do that and, you know, and for my dad too, for that matter. And so, they've really been, you know, my mom's been an inspiration for me.

A lot of this work, I attribute a lot of the work I do to, you know, growing up in Native communities. When I was an adolescence and at American Indian College, you know, my parents, it was an underfunded college that we traveled, you know, they were like the Dean of students, the recruiters, the basketball coach, you know. My mom was like faculty, you know, doing, uh, some of the developmental courses and help them with the self-study, uh, you know, they're all, it was just, everybody had multiple hats that they were wearing, you know, helping also part-time registrar or whatever it was, you know?

And so, you know, I grew up in an environment like that. And then in summertime, we would just get to visit a bunch of reservations. And, um, I think that was, it was a great time for me. And, you know, I see that in what I saw and I'll say this last thing. I saw faculty at American Indian college, you know, carrying these huge loads where it's like, they have like six, you know, I'm like, oh man, you know, I got a two, and I'm trying to get a course release.

I'm like, oh, you know, that's nothing like we're fine. Like this is, this is, I don't want to say it's easy. But I'm like, I feel like I'm in a privileged spot. When I, when I think back to the experiences that my folks had. And again, just wanting to carry that legacy, seeing how my mom changed it, you know, now.

You know, all my sisters and I graduated college, you know, I'm able to be here. You know, I got nephews and nieces, NYU, Georgetown, NAU, uh, ASU. I couldn't get anyone to come down here. But, you know, it's nice to just see that, that legacy kind of continue from, from my mother and, you know, hopefully, hopefully, you know, I'm, I'm able to do it justice over these years that I'm here too, as well.

Dean Berry:

So, what an incredible, incredible story. Thank you so much. And thank you so much for your time.