E28 Sarah Wilkin: Perseverance through crisis: Transforming adversity into opportunity

“One thing led to another and some things came up and actually it just broke really quickly and was quite a shock. It was quite disruptive and it was one of these situations where you think, okay, what has just happened?”

Sarah Wilkin

• Transforming personal adversity to professional opportunity: Sarah shares her journey overcoming a major and very sudden struggle in her personal life… and how it led her to greater success
• Addressing gender bias: How to challenge the issue of gender bias within male-dominated industries with language and representation
• Resilience in the face of change: Unlocking and developing resilience to stay firm and excel within the modern disruptive and ever-changing working landscape
• Connectivity in remote work: Strategies for staying motivated, connected and taking advantage of remote working
• The power of radical honesty: How being honest, and radically so, can unlock powerful relationships and working opportunities 

Key Links

Nissan LEAF: https://www.nissan.com.au/vehicles/browse-range/leaf.html

Fly Green Alliance: https://flygreenalliance.org/

Booking Cares https://www.sustainability.booking.com/about

Alan Partridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Partridge

Circular Economy https://ellenmacarthurfoundation.org/topics/circular-economy-introduction/overview

Kundalini https://www.healthline.com/health/kundalini-meditation

Lainey Molnar https://www.instagram.com/lainey.molnar/?hl=en

About our guest

Sarah Wilkin (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahwilkin/) is Founder & CEO of Fly Green Alliance, and was a Booking.com grantee in 2018 when she gained a sustainable travel grant to work on the R&D of sustainable aviation fuel (SAF) which was a milestone for SAF awareness, being the first time the tech had been given attention outside of the aviation industry.

She went on to pioneer the tech and is globally recognised as an expert, thought leader and now speaks on panels such as at The Economist, S&P Global and is quoted in BBC and other publications.

About our host

Our host, Chris Hudson (https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-hudson-7464254/), is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching & consultancy Company Road (www.companyroad.co)

Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally. 

For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at https://companyroad.co/podcast/

Transcript

[00:00:07] Chris Hudson: Okay. Hello everyone. And welcome back to the show. And as we continue to dig our heels into 2024, today's story is really one of grit and I'd love to share it with you today. It's around mental health and actually a lot of resilience through some serious life changes. And I'm delighted to welcome Sarah

Wilkin to the show. Sarah, hello. welcome to the show.

[00:00:24] Sarah Wilkin: Hello, Chris, again after all these years, 

[00:00:27] Chris Hudson: We both worked together in the world of advertising marketing many moons ago. We've forged our own paths since then. We've overcome quite a few bumps in the road and we've notched up quite a few wins in the process. Having taken a few risks along the way here and there and you're joining us all the way from the Netherlands, which for those here is along way away, but for anyone in Europe, it's just around the corner.

One of my favorite places and a huge welcome to the Company Road Podcast. I want to just introduce you a little bit more formally as your achievements are really impressive. You obviously worked in advertising and marketing as a project manager, mainly where we worked together and we were working on the launch of an electric vehicle at the time Leaf for Nissan and that goes back some years. That was all happening and then it led to other things for you and you took on a big career change and a role switch in 2018 to commence work in aviation and climate and energy related topics. And you've brought this sort of knowledge around sustainable aviation development to really push and pioneer innovation, carbon reduction for the world really. and you're the founder and CEO of Fly Green Alliance, which is fascinating.

I'm really looking forward to hearing more about that. So I know that was a bit more of a formal introduction, but I wanted to give you the opportunity to tell the story in your own words really. You mentioned off air that your story was something that was quite personal, quite private to you up until now, really.

So, people out there, I'm sure are looking forward to hearing it. And there'll be plenty of things that we can learn from it as well. And we can pause and jump into some of the themes as they come up, but I'd love to just hear about how things went for you in your own words. If we can start with that.

[00:01:51] Sarah Wilkin: As you said yeah, Nissan Leaf was, I think it was over 10 years ago. So it's interesting to look back and realize I was quite often working in automotive and now I can bring the sustainability and advertising and comms work to our work at Fly Green Alliance. So, yeah, it's a realization as well.

 As I was saying to you also, Chris, that I've done a few different podcasts. I was really interested in yours because it is about transformation. One of your big themes is intrapreneurs, I wasn't totally sure of the word, what it meant, but actually you explain it's about when you kind of champion or, go for a topic internally in your company and make that kind of your own, at least kind of my interpretation. And that is definitely how Fly Green Alliance started because I was working in a hotel, I'd come back to Amsterdam, I had been working in London for a long time, I'd had a contract here, but I also knew personally I was getting very stressed living in London.

I got a coach because I wanted to go on to the next phase in life. So I basically decided to make some big decisions, lifestyle decisions, but also career decisions. I worked a career at Freelance for about 10 years in advertising. Great. I bought a house and things like that, but it was stressful. So I came back to Amsterdam.

I was lucky that I got a job I really liked in a hotel chain in the digital team. And that kind of brought really different things about for me. And yeah, I actually started championing the circular economy and sustainability within the hotel chain. But, yeah, the kind of personal part I want to, today I want to discuss is that everybody that knows about Fly Green Alliance has always said, wow, you've worked so fast, you've got really good visibility so quickly and things like that.

And I think, yep, I'm very proud, but I think what I don't often tell is what led up to that. And probably the reasons why I did work so hard because the opposite was like not a place I wanted to be in. So I think just before I moved back to Amsterdam, I actually met my ex and we went into this whirlwind relationship, which was a lot of travel and meeting friends and family.

And actually we got to the stage where we decided we were going for a family. We were naming our children. I was setting up, moving to Switzerland, things like this. So it was like, I started to go through the process of actually making my new life, but I wouldn't move straight away. Anyway, I think one thing led to another and some things came up and actually it just broke really quickly and quite a shock.

And it was quite disruptive and it was one of these situations where you think, okay, what has just happened? And you let it slide by for a bit, but it was like a big- I was just, yeah, it was very, it was traumatic to be honest. And so this kind of happened while I was getting into my new career in the hotel chain. And I was like, okay, I've done all this training, I've had anxiety in the past, so I actually knew you were more than capable of making even I got very scientific about it, I knew that things about neuroscience and neuroplasticity I thought, fine, I just need to get over this quickly, I went into a really big learning phase, because I thought if you want to really just switch your brain, switch what you're thinking, then just start learning something new. At that time, I actually Googled Sustainability University of Amsterdam. Hugh Girovindian's name came up, and I emailed him, and I said, can we meet? We've got some interesting projects in the hotel. I want to know what we can do with our waste. We set up a meeting early in the year. And he said what we can do with your waste is we can turn it into jet fuel. And I thought, okay, that sounds a bit, for me, we were looking at turning it into just smaller products. And I thought jet fuel, okay. And then while I was thinking about that, I thought, wow, it's pretty out there.

And I think it's out there enough for me to be interested. I've always liked a challenge and a new innovation. I thought this could be the thing that is actually right, so I started telling stories at the dinner table know, and my previous flatmate was working at booking. com. She said, I'm a volunteer for Booking Cares and this is sustainable travel.

So we chat in and yeah, it is, this is a way to sustainably travel. If you can turn waste into useful things like aviation fuel, then that's the circular economy. So anyway, I started basically research and I thought this is going to be my sideline project. And this is going to help me get over what's just happened.

And I thought I could probably leverage some contacts and things like that with all the people that I was knowing, I thought, okay, this is interesting. And then we took it to Booking.com and they said, yeah, it is, wow, this is interesting.

I said, yes, it, it really is. And then we, they said, we advise you to go for the grant we've got. We've got some grants for sustainable travel initiatives, so please go for it. So basically, during that time, I was studying, so I was actually, as with launches, Chris, we were going into a launch.

We were busy. It was all sorts of things. We had a launch in Florence with a hotel with all sorts of digital products, and we were doing different projects as well. It was so busy at work and then on the side, I was also studying SAF, sustainable aviation fuel. And I was working on meeting people and finding out who the stakeholders were, what was happening in Brussels and meeting the World Tourism Organization.

I was really going into quite an interesting mode. And while not really dealing with a quite serious breakup and relationship in the background. And then during a really busy time, my flatmate said he wanted to move his friend in. And I was like, no. I don't, Amsterdam is so hard to find a flat.

And I was like, I can't do this right now. And then he, he just wasn't nonplussed. He was just like, yeah, here's your deadline. So I basically, I was finding a flat while I wasn't working 60 hours a week and then I basically did find a flat. I moved in, I cried on day one.

It was the wrong flat. A friend had said she was moving in, decided not to, I had to deal with, find a new flatmates so I wasn't paying double rent. And then I was just absolutely devastated and I was locked into a 12 month. Then everyone said, just leave. I was like, okay, I'm going to try. Okay. It's going to cost you 2000 euros. And then, okay. Luckily, the landlord said, we found somebody you can leave. So I was like, very relieved but then actually I was just staying at friends houses. And it was still hard to find a place. Yeah even the hotel, they saw me really upset.

A lady saw me really upset one day and she said, don't worry, we're a family here. you can stay in the hotel if it's not busy for a bit. So I even stayed in the hotel, like Alan Partridge, for a while. And I just got through it being busy and not having a proper house. But then I found the house I'm in now, and it was just such a relief and it was awesome and I was the first one to see it and I was like, yeah, taking it. Then one week later after that I was just getting my stuff together. I'd also promised a friend she could live here for a month, come into Europe and I could fulfill my promises to my friends and things like that.

And this happened, moved in with a blow up bed, a lamp. There was no lights, because in the Netherlands, everybody takes lights off the ceiling. You had to pay for the floor. My friend lent me a duvet, so it was literally, I'm like, littlest hobo.

And then, I moved in. One week later, my manager calls me into a meeting, and even though basically I was going through the process of extending my contract, I'd worked there for over a year, it was my social life, I was invested in it, I was also, he was letting me do the side projects, so for the Circular Economy I was working with the CSR team.

We were making new parts of the business. We were in all of the meetings and then they basically said, unfortunately, we've got to cut your contract. And I was like, yeah, that was another crying session. I literally cried at that meeting because it was so devastated and yeah, that was hard. That really was like, oof, because that was basically everything I was doing.

That was basically my life in Amsterdam. So it was also a reason I delayed moving to with my ex and things like this. So it was just starting to be like, Oh my God, why did I delay that? When you can just, have the rug pulled at any stage. So anyway, this was just like now. We come in quite a lot of things that just happened in a short time. 

[00:10:50] Sarah Wilkin: Luckily one of my ex-colleagues in London actually had said, we got a project. It's a pretty big one. Can you come and help us deliver it? He knew me from London. Actually, I advised him to move to Amsterdam. So we knew each other pretty well. So I thought, great. And as soon as I got that. As soon as I was sold, my contract was cut. I actually left the next day. And I went and did this new contract. But it was a big contract. It was with a, like a internal ecosystem. It was just learning everything from scratch. The team were not being that helpful. I'd been a project director at the hotel. I was going back in for being a producer. It's a different role. You forget you're not really supposed to contribute. So you're more of a facilitator. So it was like, I had to really learn all of this. Not some people, not helpful. And then my friend actually said, are you okay? I said, I'm not okay. I said, actually I've got all, I've had all of this stuff happen to me and I'm not okay. He's like I didn't think you were. I said, I just don't think I can cope with much more. And naturally the, it was a big shoot. It's supposed to be in LA and I was like, I don't think I should go. And I was thinking, you know, all of this and it was, some people are a bit, I'd love to was like, I've been to LA and I don't think I deserve to go and do that.

And I'm not, I can't do this. I'm getting so much to take on. And actually, a week later, they said, we're going to ask you to leave. And I said, absolutely fair enough. I said, I'm basically at burnout. So that was a lot. I remember that day when I came back to the house and I was like, oh wow, you know, wow. So I was thinking, okay, but then at the same time, actually, the saving grace was the fact that I'd written the grant with Shiju Ravindran, the chemistry professor, and actually Booking. com were interested. And then they shortlisted us. And then they shortlisted us again and I was like, Oh my God.

And then just, things were starting to happen. But all of us obviously work stuff was happening. I was like trying to keep it together, but it was also one of those situations where my bike got stolen and then my wallet was stolen and everything was in the UK and my admin was like, just stuff wasn't vibing a little bit. After the second contract to finish, I then also had the opportunity to go to the World Tourism Organization Tourism Day in Budapest. And I went to it, and it was quite formal. And I met Diplat lady, and she was very supportive of what I was doing. And I tried to apply to be a startup, but it was a digital transformation.

It wasn't sustainability then. It was political and formal. And I thought, I like it here and yeah, I'd met different people and it was networking and formal networking. December 2018 Me and Shiju we pitched and then just before Christmas. I'd also had 2 sisters from Manila stay with me. Who were part of the booking group and they stayed with me and we were out having a drink and then I got a call from Shiju and he said, yeah, we've got the grant. I was like, everything was built in because I was thinking, if we don't get this grant, this is literally going to be the worst Christmas of my life. This is literally, I think I'm just going to be depressed for life. But yeah, on a serious note, it was, I knew I was heading for something that was- it was not a nice area.

It was not pretty. I think it would have been pretty dark. It was just so many layers but yeah, so basically January 2019, I began to work from home. And work on the project of sustainable aviation fuel. It's literally building network. I was going to Brussels a lot.

I actually was taking the Flix bus because it was 10 Euros. I knew I needed to save money. I'd split my part of the grant in two because I knew it was, I just thought this is huge. This is actually politics and a huge aviation industry. I know nothing, nobody, actually I'd studied for a year, so I did know some things. Oh sorry, what I forgot to say is, I got advised to go to a conference. They were like, if you're going to be speaking to senior stakeholders, I suggest you go to a conference and get to know your things. And thought, good advice. So I did. And actually, you're in Australia now. What I did, I'd lived in Australia previously.

Actually, when I left TMW, where we worked on the Kings Road I went to live in Australia. So I'd been there, I had friends there. So actually, I decided, I'm just gonna put Australia on a credit card and I'm gonna go. I'm going to go and see my friends for the next few weeks. I'm going to get some sunshine in November when it's just, the weather's starting to be horrible.

And it literally just revived me. I just love travel for this. I love every aspect of travel, which is why I'm so happy that I can work in sustainable travel. It's definitely been a focus. And a joy. I went to the conference, I realized I knew a lot more than I thought I would know. And then it was when we got granted.

So I was telling people about booking. com, having the nerve to put my hand up in that room full of mostly guys in gray suits. And, definitely me walking into a very different environment. Having to go from advert- it was like professionalizing. Formally asking questions, you know, asking appropriate smart questions and things like this, but I was up for the challenge.

I was like, yeah, I like this. It's academic, I'll get back to being at school. I was pretty good at school at science and things like that. So I was, I could finally get back to some academia. And then yeah, January. So basically 2019 was then just the challenge of a startup, but then I realized the breakup and everything that had happened was starting to unravel.

So I was actually setting up a startup, which was already stressful during me actually processing. a big breakup that was going to be family, so I had to face up to am I gonna have a family? What is my path gonna be? Why did this happen? Why was it like this? All of the questions, so It was pretty intense.

My friends will know that it was a significant time in my life. But then you just go into work, you just go in, it was literally just work. Work your ass off because this is a once in a lifetime opportunity as well and these times don't come. And actually, that might have happened to make this happen.

My ex said, you know, he actually was shopping around while I was not deciding and decided, to have a family with somebody else quite quickly after, so I was not, things like this happen, you just have to deal with that and then you say, for me, I was saying to myself, just, you need to make this the best you can now, that as somebody's, several people have come along and decided.

You think they've decided your future for you or they've changed your path and you think right now it's up to you and you have to use all of your strength and you have to dig deep, use this, use your intelligence and use your character everything. So it was just a big transformation in

so many ways. 

[00:17:53] Chris Hudson: that that's only in a few years as well, and there's probably many more stories leading up to that too, both from your time in London and before that, probably as you were growing up, I'm sure as well, but wow, what a journey you packed it into the last, 10, 15 minutes of, you just told it and there's so much there that we could go into I'm just wondering where to start.

Actually. I think that, one of the interesting things around- I suppose awareness and self awareness through some of those experiences. And when you know, I've been in not exactly those situations, but ones where you think, okay well, I'm aware of what's going on and I'm in control and control isn't always there, but at least if you're aware of it to some extent, then great.

But it felt like in some of those instances, like you're just reacting to the bad hand that's been dealt. Basically, you couldn't have done much to really prepare for that in some way. Did you feel like you, were you assessing all of this as it was going on?

Or was it just all happening? 

[00:18:43] Sarah Wilkin: This is why I thought I was all right at first because everyone's like, wow, you're handling that so well. Because I had money to go away. I could go and see my friend and it was just- in some ways, if you can throw money at a situation, you are fine, but I knew, I would say, actually I was having a good time at work, even though it was busy.

And I was studying something I was interested in, and we had, yeah, the launch in Florence, which was amazing and stuff like that, so we, I think you can get over stuff as long as stuff keeps going. Actually, I posted the other day, Einstein had said, life is like a bike, to keep the balance, you need to keep moving.

And I was like, that's true, Albert. it just, you know, it's the thing. If you do keep moving, so this is why I've always been like, anyone that is also in like, I've got friends that, I get a little bit of some wind to lul. You need to keep walking and moving and doing yoga, doing this and this, and, and you just don't sit.

And, you might have periods where you're really low and you don't wanna do anything and you can't even exercise, which is gonna make you feel better. So, and for me, I'm lucky that I was always into yoga

since age 25

[00:19:54] Chris Hudson: It's in you. 

[00:19:55] Sarah Wilkin: So I had that sort of well being part, but I did smoke actually. So actually after that breakup, I was like smoking so much, I thought, wow, this is going to be bad, and I basically forced myself to give up smoking because I was so stressed. And I was like, I'm giving myself a headache. I'm so happy I gave up smoking and I actually realized you can, and also you can't go out the going out path where you're going grit. You'll have to really reign it in and stuff and say, actually a cup of tea is better for me now. Do more yoga, stay in, go to bed and wait tomorrow is a different day. So I had to steer away from certain friends that would be like, I just come out and do this and think, no, that is not going to help me. So, you know, obviously advertising world, we've all been in this work hard, play hard.

So you do also need to like wise up. 

 Yeah, no, it's an interesting one. I also found out about this- I thought it was yoga. It was Kundalini, and it's basically like breath works, breathing, and holding certain positions, or repeating certain positions, and it's, when I first did it with my friend, we were like, what is this?

Yeah it was quite odd. But then, after the two hour workshop, we were like, feeling amazing. We were supposed to have like a boozy brunch, we were like, don't want it, don't need it, I feel fantastic. Anyway I realised it's good for your nervous system, it strengthens your nervous system.

I went last week, because my friend had not done it. She gets some winter, the SAD thing, so I was like, let's go and let it fire your system up, it strengthens your nervous system. I also do things like cold showers, which strengthens your nervous system, because at the end of the day when you're getting big shocks, it goes straight to your nervous system, and you need to manage that, and so you need to also move that out of your system.

So I'm very aware of stuff like that now. Don't let it sit in you, don't let it be there too long, just keep getting

[00:21:52] Chris Hudson: So just thinking back then, Sarah, I I think it's easier to talk about the now as being like the sort of happy place and I guess where some of these fixes are more easy to reach for in that moment because they're front of mind and you're often using the techniques that, in hindsight, you would have used them much earlier in life, maybe.

But now you're using more time, but thinking back from your point of view and from your story what was some of the big traps that anyone really can fall into, you think at work that you would want people to be aware of thinking back?

[00:22:19] Sarah Wilkin: The immediate personal one is that I would have joined the co-working a bit sooner and joined more mentorship programs because I did a lot of solo. It's not actually good. It's not that good for you. That first three months of working solo, I basically cried every day for three months.

But it was just a physical reaction. I would, yeah, make sure you've got people around you. Because it was one year before remote working. So I had to go through all that pain everyone did in the pandemic. But again, that meant I was ready for the next version of pandemic life.

And now I'm in WhatsApp groups with all the freelance or consultants here in Amsterdam I can go and work at family friend's house remotely and things like that. But I would just get your groups. It was a bit of a funny time for me as well because I was moving away from advertising. So you're sort of moving away from friendship groups so it's just try and stay connected because I realized that for me, when I'm focused in work, my social life actually goes out the window and I think, I haven't even planned what to do at the weekend and stuff like that. And so at one point I had a schedule where it was my work schedule, but weekend as well, so that I literally remembered to plan it.

But again, it's actually, I think it's just knowing yourself. You need to get to know your

own weaknesses. 

[00:23:35] Chris Hudson: That's the secret, but is there an efficient way of doing that? Is there a way of, obviously you get your appraisals at work and performance reviews and people telling you what they think, but is there any shortcuts to that from your point of view? 

[00:23:46] Sarah Wilkin: Through climate kick mentorship and they went through our values with us. And kind of as a bit of a different answer to your question, but we went through. values, which I had no idea what my values were until we started going through them. You kind of know you like certain things or don't like certain things, but I didn't know what these sort of core values were. And then also through different just training programs, the program started understanding that having a startup and developing it is not just about the business.

In fact, it's more likely it's about the founder than it is actually about the business because there are many good ideas. But actually, can anybody execute them, stay stable enough to get to the next stage? Because most entrepreneurs are like all over, it's a lot and you are literally being faced by every single challenge you will possibly ever have.

Financial, emotional, the fact that businesses can be quite, it's definitely not considering your well being, shall we say. If you tell people things they will sometimes take them and they will do it without you. You literally have to deal with all of these things that may be in a friendship group or a workplace might be spread out over a longer period of time.

So you would deal with them slowly. You're literally dealing with so many things coming at you at once. And you have to be really strong. So I think it's just, once you, what I love that one was fail fast. Basically, just go into everything and understand the more you can be sort of quite open and honest with people and just get to what you can either do for each other or your values quickly, I would say this in relationships as well, you can get to this quicker, you will either be able to work out whether you can work together or it's not going to work. So I think that across business and personal, that if you can get to these challenge points. And you see how you manage them or deal with them. Do you like the way they operate? Do they, do you like their approach? Could you partner with this business? Do they align with you? Do they like your approach?

Are they gonna just turn around and leave immediately? Or just stuff like that. Also definitely don't take things personally. Business, personal, all of it. At the end of the day, sometimes people have an agenda and it's not your agenda. you want to get to that stage.

I was on a mentor workshop yesterday, mentorship workshop with women in football. We were talking about trust and things like that and chemistry and kind of work with people that you spar with, you get on with, you've got good chemistry with, you understand how each other communicates. And that turns into good work because you can discuss, debate. You can also be wrong sometimes and people are not going to be oh that's terrible, we can't work with you anymore, you've made a mistake. As we've worked in advertising, stuff definitely doesn't go right all the time. So I already had this sort of training from project management is that, yes, you've got a plan. But actually, it isn't just managing that people kind of stick to this plan. And actually managing personalities, people's stress levels. You're basically there to manage things going wrong constantly. Egos, you've got to also manage people that- if you're creating something, you don't turn around and give the exact feedback from the client because they will go crazy. You learn to interpret and retell in the most constructive way. Oh, actually that was really helpful for starting up work because I'd already learned you cannot feedback directly to people that are very passionate about, you know, it's their work and I make sure this is in our company actually now that when I work with people or I get feedback and if it's in this advertising style, quite aggressive, not nice feedback. I say, hey we don't work like that. Can you kindly feedback or can you feedback in a bit of softer way?

Because it's not really nice to receive feedback when it's just quite negative, so can you change the way you feed back? And some people are a bit nice at first, 

[00:27:51] Chris Hudson: I definitely noticed when I came over here six years ago or so, the, everything seemed a little bit more transparent, a little bit more direct and straight down the line, say it how it is and, but in a friendly way and you could just have an open conversation mutually.

In Australia. Yeah. 

In the UK. I think, feels like we've had this sort of awakening really in the last few years since COVID and people tuned into mental health and the whole movement and the, just the awareness around it is much greater than it was before.

It's great to be aware, obviously, but the sensitivity still comes from how you manage some of those situations and not everyone really feels that comfortable in either feeding back, less than directly or politely or, more sensitively sometimes that can be considered as being, a bit of masking as well.

You're not really saying what you think and you're holding something back. And I know that there were lots of signals to sort of interpret still. And I'm wondering, whether you found that as well. There are still tricky conversations to be managed in one way or another.

And how do you get around some of those?

[00:28:48] Sarah Wilkin: I've actually had a few recently where experiences or situations have not worked out and I've been extremely disappointed by the way they've been conducted. What I always do is leave it a while to let it sit. They say never respond to an email in anger, never respond with emotion, charged emotion.

Or I just think, you can, write your response, but never send it. But then I think, actually, I wrote a thought leadership piece on radical honesty,

which I think Is a really interesting concept. Well, It's an approach. Which you might like actually, because it is basically almost the Australian approach. What it isn't is impolite, what it isn't is rude. It is just saying how you are seeing it from your perspective and giving literally your perspective, thoughts, opinions of how you see the situation so that you then give the opposites, the other side, other person and group a chance to come back and understand your side fully before you come.

Because what I've come to realize in almost every relationship is that you think you're saying something to each other, but each person has no idea that they think this, thought that, have done this, it's all misconceptions. If you can get to that place, it's almost like mediation, but you're doing it yourself, you don't need another person in the middle.

You're basically getting to that place where you're just being honest about how you either feel or, and it's almost like a, it's a, it's conflict resolving really. And then if somebody might not come back to you, it might be that is the truth and actually they can't respond to that.

I also got taught one technique called the true false don't know technique. If you write down, say something's happened. Don't like it. Very unhappy about it. Write down every single thought, you have around 

[00:30:42] Chris Hudson: Yeah. 

[00:30:42] Sarah Wilkin: that situation. Then, write down what is true, that you know is factually true.

What do you know is actually false and you're just coming out of your own mind from somewhere, and what is don't know? And what you'll find out is about two truths, quite a lot of don't knows, and a lot of it is false.

[00:31:01] Chris Hudson: Yeah, that's right, isn't it? I mean, there's, there is such a thing as facts and there isn't actually much facts around in the world of work. If you unpick it a little bit, it feels like there's a lot of weighty opinions swaying around. And there are a lot of people, preaching those opinions but it feels like to consider that is, is a luxury really, I think navigating in the moment is also very hard.

So what you were saying just then about, almost playing back the situation and I've, it comes up in conflict resolution techniques as well, where you're essentially say, okay, let's just pause, you might even have to play the role of a facilitator in some way or another, introduce a break into that conversation, make everyone go away and have a coffee and come back or something.

That's a great opportunity to just kind of reset and play back where we are. And then you can basically just lay down the story or the understanding and if people have got a different understanding, they can offer that up. And then you're leveling out what's going on because otherwise it can quite quickly get

get railroaded by someone else with a strong 

[00:31:59] Sarah Wilkin: opinion. Yeah and it gets escalated and then usually it's because, obviously, we come from our own place. And we've got our own background, nobody else has a version of our life or perspective because of our experience. You don't know another person's experience and what you're triggering.

So you're basically going around probably triggering each other for different things. Hopefully people are coming from a good place, but actually not everyone. Some people are stressed, some people are angry, jealous. They're not having a good time, they're depressed, so I like to think, I try, I can't always do this, we're all full of bias and judgement, but I always try and give people the benefit of the doubt and think, what's going on for them, and sometimes, you know, my few friends have been snapping and I think I know, if somebody snaps at me, I say please do not speak to me in this tone of voice. 

[00:32:49] Chris Hudson: everyone has a bad day 

[00:32:52] Sarah Wilkin: But obviously there is, especially in families, sometimes you can snap back and you think, oh, you have to come into your own calm. And don't let people trigger you, but it's hard. These are definitely the personal aspects of being a person and having a business. Is that, obviously you're going around working on relationships and your hope. There are absolutely positive parts. We're just talking about the conflict part now, but 

[00:33:16] Chris Hudson: Do you reckon, you've taken the step, obviously a big step to move from both freelancing world and working within bigger organizations to then set up your own. Do you think that there are, big lessons that you can learn along the way within organizations that set you up well for entrepreneurs life in one way or another?

What were some of those things do you think? 

[00:33:34] Sarah Wilkin: You're always looking for new, sparks of inspiration and ideas. And for me, I've realized I'm a connect the dots person. You can connect that door and then make, I actually, I spoke to a graduate this week and she's interested in doing some potential work with us. But she works in an organization and I said, my advice is find out one project that you're allowed to do and can do internally that's going to be your interest. We all get jobs. This is how I did it always. Like you all get jobs and you think it's okay, but I want to also actually be doing a different job. She wants to work in sport. She's doing a very different job. So, think of what you can make leverage from your workplace.

Can you find some contacts? Can you work with another department? Can you make one project happen? These are my thoughts like, always be thinking how to connect things like I definitely have gone on to take things from that crisis year and take the context. You've already made relationships with people.

And for me, as I've always traveled. I've met just really interesting, smart people along the way. Actually now I message and they're very senior in certain positions. And we happen to have met on a random, da, da, da, somewhere in, Myanmar or something like this, but, I'm just always meeting people and keep, and try to keep in touch as much as I can.

And it's not for business as well, but if it turns into people can connect you with all sorts of other people. So always just be very open. But as I said, you can't be spending so much. So I know I'm spending too much time solo because I'm going from travel to homework. I'm now working on that this year to get out of the house more, go into the co working spaces.

I found I'm not really good at concentrating, so I'm going to have to force myself to try and find a way to have meetings or work in a way that is going to work for me, but I'm also being sociable. And for me, sometimes I don't do that. I just think, concentrate on work, get your work done, then go for a coffee with another person working more remotely.

So you just have to work out your own rhythm, always do your exercise, go for walks. Stay connected. Move around. Also, as we have the beauty of working remotely, go and spend a walk with your family or your friends. Most people have moved out of London now, so I do go back and see some friends in London, but most of my friends have moved out.

Make the most, because it's really inspiring. You're in different areas all the time, you're thinking of different ideas. 

Most friends go, what are you doing again? Oh yeah, you're doing that. You know, you don't really go into it. But if you've got more time, you can, oh actually, and then go, oh really? Oh well, I know that person. Oh, that's interesting. Oh, and then you just, it's a much more interesting way to work and that is definitely my number one- 

[00:36:24] Chris Hudson: There's an element of, just taking a control, take it by the, whatever analogy you want to use, just grab it basically, and you know, make it yours and start with you and what you need, and then make sure that you also connect in a way that works for you as well.

I think, there was a massive shift to working from home, but nobody really knows how to- they'll like the aspects of working from home, obviously, but in terms of socializing, remaining connected to other peers, both in your work in your organization, maybe outside in your industry, I had a question today on LinkedIn. It was about LinkedIn and whether, if you were active on LinkedIn, whether, that was saying something about you.

And if you weren't active on LinkedIn, was that a sign of you having a really healthy career? And it kind of started a bit of a conversation around that. I think you have to, even if you're in an organization, you have to connect to the outside world because otherwise you're controlled probably because you haven't got the perspective of that outside world either.

And even if you're outside, you need to be connected to other people on the inside. It's just about nurturing that connection in some way or another 

in whichever way is right for you, because otherwise, if you're isolated, then life still goes on in other places and they're not connected to you.

So you still need to put yourself into those situations as well. I feel, what do you think?

[00:37:29] Sarah Wilkin: I've got some really interesting clients. The benefit you can bring is that you are more mobile, agile, is that you can go and learn about much more. by going to all of these different conferences, areas, places, then they could do themselves and that's what they definitely want, are willing to pay consultancy for, is that you collect all of the ideas and approaches and you bring it to their table and then they work out what is best for their business.

And I've just had a workshop before Christmas and we're now going into a really interesting phase where we're scoping. What is possible? How do we leverage all of their so many different sustainability assets and things like that? How do we talk about it in the right way? How do we bring opportunities and they might be in different countries and things like that.

But yeah, of course I do as a sustainable consultant. I of course do not travel as much by air. I do things like that, but I also do believe we absolutely need to keep traveling. You cannot just stop that part of life. For me, it's part of

[00:38:31] Chris Hudson: You've taken on something really ambitious in that respect because obviously it's aviation and it's the biggest culprit, I think. Am I right? 

[00:38:38] Sarah Wilkin: It's not 

[00:38:39] Chris Hudson: actually.

[00:38:39] Sarah Wilkin: 

Construction and agriculture is one of the big ones. So aviation is actually less than automotive. It's about 3%, I think in Europe, it's 

[00:38:50] Chris Hudson: Hmm.

[00:38:50] Sarah Wilkin: 12% but cars are 60%. So it's quite a misconception in that way.

[00:38:55] Chris Hudson: Good to clarify these things. But even so, you know, you work in a field where you would probably have to travel and just even the basic things of having to think about other ways to travel or sustainable ways to travel is, it's something that if you show that people can do that, then obviously people will see that it's possible. 

[00:39:09] Sarah Wilkin: You need to test things as well, because like me and the guy I'm working with, we're testing different routes to try and connect them in Europe. And how can this be good for business? And approaching rail companies and those blockers, you literally need to go around and go, what is that blocker?

How can I unblock it? How can we make this a project, a pilot? So you have to live it and you have to understand on the ground, what's happening. That's also what interests in part if you are in innovation, especially travel. You can't sit in an office or at home, you need to be

[00:39:38] Chris Hudson: Interesting. How are you actually going about bringing about the change that needs to happen? If you could talk to that a little bit. 

[00:39:43] Sarah Wilkin: Yeah, I had to get to know the aviation industry very well, so that was policy and the politics and everything. It started just in aviation, but moving broadened to mobility. It depends quite a lot. I started getting called a thought leader and things like this and was put on panels with ECJ and Lufthansa and all sorts of people.

So, I was lucky that I was probably the only one and the only woman doing this kind of work at the time. So, of course, it helps to bring awareness of the topic anyway, but it was starting to do this work. You literally have to be going to events and speaking to people and understanding their remit and why they're not doing it.

And you're literally getting feedback constantly. But then we've, we're lucky that during the pandemic, people were saying, oh, we need this kind of consultancy. It's quite niche and we didn't know existed. It's literally finding interesting people to work with, work on their strategy. And then I've just done a schedule for us and put in some of our reaches.

One of our clients has got 160, 000 employees. One has a million followers on instagram, another has 19, 000 customers. Now that's how you can make more impact. You literally be involved with somebody else's really big global strategy. And then you can you can be small, and still have the impact.

[00:41:00] Chris Hudson: Yeah, it's really cool. Yeah, just coming back to the point that you just made around, going up in front of a bunch of men, in that industry. And then how's that going for you? I mean, it's a massive topic and it comes up every year, International Women's Day comes up every year and same things get discussed but there are still many industries out there that, are leaning the other way. Tell us a bit about your experience of that gender bias and what you think you've learned from that in a way.

[00:41:23] Sarah Wilkin: I maybe made my company because of that. Because, yeah, I mean, well, as we're being open, I was going to work for another company, but I decided to dress up so that I could show them I would, this is how I would present myself at the conferences and da da da. And like two of the guys-. Two of the guys while I was having my interview, winked at me and I just thought, oh no, winking at work. Is that okay? and I thought I kind of discussed it with my sister and I had the grant anyway. It just, things like this came up and I was going to these conferences. Like, wow, I think I need to do this solo because I'm going to be doing it in a different way.

I'm bringing in different variants and then after a while, there was no female airline CEOs, the lineup was literally guy, guy, Michael O'Leary, it was like, I knew a senior lady at airlines for Europe, yeah, we just trying to get more female CEOs. And then my colleague for one project made me CEO and I wasn't CEO, I was founder and thought, yeah, you know what?

I do need to be CEO and actually went I need to just be it, put it out there because also you do get invited to more things and tables and events if you're CEO. So, I thought, right, just put that out there. And actually in the pandemic, I gave myself that gift because there was nothing else happening.

Promoted myself and thought, yeah, need to do this. And then actually that was of course, me leveling up scene. You need to be it you are at the table with all of these guys and actually be very serious about not that always everyone is serious, but you need to be representing and having a serious conversation, showing them that, you know you r stuff. Obviously every female CEO leader has their own approach and I never was a man basher anywhere or anything like that. I just realized there was a lot of work to do. In advertising, you didn't see that as much because it was a bit more liberal and stuff, I guess. but it was just now I work in two, I work in football as well.

And I just. I just also saw that over the years, I was like, women have this role in football or WAGs or something, but I thought all of this is, it probably needs to shift, there needs to be more business leaders in football, there needs to be more business, all of this, aviation, and then all of a sudden, and I've written about it, thought leadership, just put it into our program, put it into our themes, values found other people working in this area and just started talking about it.

Yeah it's been a really, really, really important part and I never thought it would be because I could play football at school when I was younger, I didn't at high school. My dad had three daughters, so he took us everywhere. I never felt that from my youth, but then coming into different sectors, it was like, I never joined women's groups, because I thought, oh just get involved.

But then and somebody said to me, it's not for you, it's for the other women. And I thought, that might need to build confidence in this area. And that king of twigged for me. And then I couldn't ignore it going into aviation and football. I thought.

Because you're a woman?

I thought, was it? I thought, maybe. You have to realize things and be a bit more aware. I've always been like I did computer at school first of all. There was another girl in the class and that was it. So I've always been in this situation, which I actually like and I didn't mind.

And so I've always been able to just chat with guys and stuff. But it was different. And actually, it is different in personal life to business, you do need to state your certain things and you need to do need to call things out. Sometimes I'm even at work. Actually my manager used to call me woman.

And I said, do not call me, please do not call me a woman, I don't like it. You know, just certain things where you just say, please don't do that, I don't like it. Can you say it in a different way? You just start slowly calling out different language. Language, massively important. Just start using different language.

So we get used to, but now the women's football and the women's football group, so much good work is happening and it's challenging all these, the senior guys and the CEOs and I've responded to some diversity, equity, inclusion roles and consultancy pieces because I'm like, I can see why there is still bias in your organization? I know why it is. I've studied it. I've read it. I've read the female lead. I follow a lady called Lainey Molnar. She's piloting everything. You just need to be shown what these biases are. Because not every person like, but women have them as well.

The UN said 9 out of 10 people are biased against women, meaning women are also biased because it's ingrained. For me it's about bring that to the surface, show it, because actually most guys will be supportive unless they've got their own type of agenda and that, you know, that was also part of my realization from my ex.

He said I don't think you're going to be able to support. And I thought, what kind of support do you want? I can cook and I can clean, but I can also do strategy. So I think you have to realize what is your value and make sure you don't get undervalued because that's what's happening.

Women are undervalued or just slightly sidelined and they might be even doing it, we might be doing it ourselves with the language we use or disrespecting ourselves or putting ourselves down just because it's the habit. So I've stopped doing all that and I, put myself in any room now. And I am invited to a lot of rooms now, which is the great thing.

And people, and so, you know, when I finally on the stage and I'm speaking to people in the room and they're listening, that is a very, very good achievement for me.

[00:47:08] Chris Hudson: Yeah. I mean, it's amazing. It's amazing. And just hearing you talk about it, it kind of brings together a number of themes that we've covered in this chat already because it just feels like, you have to be upfront, you have to be very much aware of the situation in which you're in and it feels like that speed of response to what you're noticing. And then, done in a way that's, of course, appropriate for the situation, but it has to be called out there and then because, otherwise things just go on. And I think, everyone is very accommodating and probably over accommodating of a number of behaviors and attitudes that just the way in which company culture sometimes exists, things are ingrained, as you say, and they're just not, they're not ever challenged. I think, for one person to challenge it is actually very hard and we have to acknowledge that, in a meeting, in a boardroom setting, in a leadership setting, even talking up, when it's not in relation to the topic at hand or if it's not based on the conversation that people are expecting you to have, is actually going to come as a surprise, as a shock. And it's almost like one of us, just a side topic. We don't need to talk about that right now, because what we're talking about today is this, this, this, and this, and this is on the agenda.

So it's a hard thing to maneuver, and it's also a skill, but I think that everyone needs to be aware of that as a card that they can play at some point, so that when it happens, You just got to put it on the table. I think. What do you think? 

[00:48:25] Sarah Wilkin: Sometimes you think, Oh, my God, I'm so heavily into the politics of everything and it can get heavy. But you do need to take a step back sometimes as well and get out of that mode because you think why am I challenging everything why is this my job you think it's not your job you're just choosing to do it but you were choosing to put it in the company so do it don't think it you just I don't know it's a bit of a tricky one and you just Accept that it is a challenge, but you also have to accept people don't mean to do it always.

Some do, and you just have to realize there are some people out there that are never going to be that great to people, but just sideline them, move away from those people, but most people once you, they understand what you're all about and what you're working to achieve, will really get on board.

And actually now, I think now, yeah, I did one piece and highlighted two pictures. And now there's about 10 female airline CEOs. So, I'm very proud of that. You can never sort of obviously, I did not do that, but I was part of that by showing that female CEOs are in this area. In this sector, and there's many capable and able to sit on the table with the big boy, you know, so I think there's just loads of, and it's not even that, there's senior women that have been working for decades. So it's also not being wanted and there's a lot of youth programs that are trying to show girls they can be pilots and stuff like that.

So it's literally just putting the work in because it's not always meant to happen. It's just been like that. So we're just changing it now. Just don't let it continue to be like that.

[00:49:57] Chris Hudson: We're almost at the time, Sarah, and I've really enjoyed the chat, but I want to finish with one question, which I sometimes ask at the start, but we're going to do it now because it really neatly ties into some of the things we've been talking about, but if you could just talk to what you think your superpower is, if you've thought about that or it doesn't have to be one thing either, what do you think your superpower is and how would you describe that?

[00:50:17] Sarah Wilkin: Dancing for a long time all night. Um, resilient. I think it must be resilience or something. Probably joining the dots or sparks of inspiration, like taking things and creatively making them happen. It's yeah, taking these parts and putting everything together that maybe people wouldn't have. No, maybe some people would've thought of it, but just putting things together from different sparks of information and being able to see all of these things and seeing it can be useful for the future and things like that. And then just doing it just getting on with stuff. And not being phased. Generally by in a way, I wasn't really phased, I knew this work was going to take a long time but I'm just going to start just being positively motivated to make improvements, a better life for myself, better well being, a business, and not giving up.

[00:51:08] Chris Hudson: Well, that's the perfect way to finish the conversation. And I can't thank you enough, Sarah, you've been incredibly generous with your time and just so open through the chat and we've covered a lot of ground here and yeah, I think your story is one that can inspire so many people out there, so I really appreciate you taking the time.

Thank you.

[00:51:23] Sarah Wilkin: Yeah, thank you. It feels quite freeing to tell it. You know, it's nice to tell stories that, because positive things come out of often not positive things, so that I guess is my main takeaway is that just don't, put up with what's delivered, just do make it better.

[00:51:41] Chris Hudson: Brilliant. We'll leave it there. Thank you so much, Sarah. 

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