E31 Nick Berman - The mindful intrapreneur: Lessons in primal screaming, monkey brains & 10 days of silence

“I’m 46 and I'm going to continue to do new stuff constantly my entire life. It's going to challenge me. I'm going to be uncomfortable with it. And the neurons in my mind will keep developing the ability to be adaptable if I keep challenging myself.”

Nick Berman

In this episode, you’ll hear about:

Balancing personal & professional life: How to regularly assess emotion states, seek equilibrium and create space for introspection to live in balance and mindfulness

Nick’s primary philosophy on self-growth: Understanding the choices you have available in life & learning to take ‘left turns’ to continuously push personal boundaries and growth through discomfort

Detecting & dealing with overwhelm: How to recognise early states of overwhelm and take actional steps early to avoid breakdown

Building trusting & authentic relationships: Steps to establishing trust with yourself, and those around you in a professional social context

Changing ahead of change: Acknowledging the changing state of the world and learning how to actively make changes to your life, routine and mindset to adapt in advance

Key links

Vipassana Silent Retreat https://www.dhamma.org.au/

Brené Brown https://brenebrown.com/

Tony Robbins https://www.tonyrobbins.com/

Qigong https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/qigong-what-you-need-to-know

HireGround https://www.hireground.co/

Breathwork https://health.clevelandclinic.org/breathwork/

About our guest

A self-titled ‘specialist in being nice to people’, Nick Berman (https://www.linkedin.com/in/batmanbeard/) is a purpose career coach and founder of HireGround. With over 15 years experience in recruiting for creative roles, from graphic designers to marketing managers, he started his current business to ensure that the work he does can offer “true career guidance, honest connections and long-term support.”

About our host

Our host, Chris Hudson (https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-hudson-7464254/), is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching & consultancy Company Road (www.companyroad.co)

Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with Academy Xi in Innovation, CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally.

For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at https://companyroad.co/podcast/

Transcript

[00:00:07] Chris Hudson: Nick, welcome to the Company Road podcast. I've been really looking forward to having you on the show as you bring this unique perspective on what it takes to change companies, not by focusing on the companies and the things that companies do so much, but really focusing on it from deep within. So not within the organizations, but within teams, within us all as individuals, as people, in what we believe in, and what grounds us and what we value, what makes us, and you're in the business of recruitment, but it's kind of a little bit different in the way that you do it. I'd love to hear a bit more about that. And more recently, you've hit upon a way of helping organizations almost meet their goals by helping the people find where they should be heading.

 So Nick, huge welcome to the show, and I've been excited to ask you about the 10 day retreat that you've just come back from. So, let's maybe start with that and then we can go back from there. 

[00:00:48] Nick Berman: Thank you firstly for your time and really, yeah, it's been a while since we've tried to do this so it's great that we're doing this finally. And so, yeah, appreciate your time and the opportunity to speak to the audience. And I think it's a misconception that it was a retreat, to be honest. 

[00:01:01] Chris Hudson: Tell me.

[00:01:02] Nick Berman: Yeah but I mean, it's interesting. I've been telling people I've been in a retreat. And I mean, people think of the word retreat and they feel like it's almost like, oh, there's cocktails and there's massages and those- kinds of things. 

I mean, it was probably like that, but it, most of the work that was going on was in my head. So, essentially I spent 10 days, nine and a half days in pure silence. Other than being able to talk to two individuals, one of whom was a teacher, and one of whom was the manager and the manager's there to assist any sort of day to day needs, and the teacher's there like in terms of talking about the meditation practice.

So it's essentially a Buddhist approach to meditation. I can't speak into it in like in a great historical understanding of what it is. And though I am now engaged fully in that practice and attempting to continue to practice, I saw the version of myself that I am from a very different position because, I handed my phone in for 10 days, you know I'm 46 now. And I mean, what are we talking about? We're probably talking at least 20 years of mobile phone, 25 years of having a mobile phone, iPhone, maybe, I don't know, 15 years. And it's well, how do you function without, you perceive that as part of you. So even just the aspect, but then you take into account that I was away from my children. There were men and women on the site of the campus, but they were separated. And so even though, you know, these people there and you're sharing space in some way, but I couldn't look at anyone in the face. I wasn't allowed to look anyone in the face.

I wasn't allowed to communicate with them. If someone had the door open for me, you know, all that everyday stuff that we, consider just normal, I couldn't do. I'm English so I have this whole thing about saying thank you for everything. So even just the resistance and control around that, and I'm gonna say the word control probably quite a lot in here because and it's only just now I've said it is that I'm gonna attach that feeling of connection and actually you couldn't do it like people were cooking for me every day and I was sitting next to the same person every day for 10 days and I couldn't talk to them I couldn't even say thank you I mean they put the spoons out and if it fell in the sauce I would kind of wipe and then that would be and the first three days are essentially learning to concentrate and be more conscious of our sensations so that a lot of the focus is around change. And this is something that's really big for me, as you know, is because we've known each other some time and the slowdown that comes in our minds and our bodies when you can actually observe the change and you can feel the change and the breath and the concentration that we do in the first three days to practice, essentially, you start noticing the intricate details in our bodies and our heads is the subtle changes, and it's some people might feel like an itch.

It might feel like a scratch. It might feel like a strain and muscle thing, but you're kind of just focusing. So it's three hours a day concentrated meditation, separate times, but then rest of it was practice or silence. And so what I would end up doing is sitting in this room, trying to meditate, concentrating a lot, not letting the story, you know, I guess, essentially my iPhone information it wasn't there.

I couldn't access it. I couldn't communicate with it. Couldn't speak to my kids. couldn't lean on that as a function in my life anymore. The operational system was still there and ongoing. And I had conversations with my current partner, with my kids, candidates. I didn't have a pen and paper, Chris. And so again, even when I, I remembered some of my ideas, thankfully, but you have these amazing spontaneous ideas and without your phone or calling someone to initiate, how do you share? So I was not able to be able to share this amazing thing. So really frustrated on lots of levels, I think it was day three or four.

I felt like I'd hit this sort of, it was almost, it felt like a bit of a marshmallow point was soft and I was like, oh I found it. I was like, oh I can access this. And then the following day, I was sitting down and starting another phase of the practice. My thoughts just came in, kept coming in and it was, I wasn't conscious about it.

Like I wasn't conscious enough in my thought that I could, I would be there sitting breathing.

I had thoughts coming and it was like, I had to literally just start like creating a boundary there for myself to say, you're not here. But then I would go. You'd be there at like eight o'clock at night finishing your process, go back really tired to sleep because you've been up since four o'clock, and then your mind's still going because you're like, it's this process, right? I run at a decent pace. My mind runs at a decent pace normally with or without my phone.

 I observed it from a different angle, essentially. Like I just almost saw into it and I could talk to it to a degree. And I helped also manage that a bit more, but it was almost like it became surround sound or three day TV and that little, that next level of, oh that exists in that way. And I left on Sunday, we were on like Thursday. Now I left on Sunday and probably, and I feel like my mind's still moving. As I said to you, it's like still feels like it's transitioning.

And I'm really glad to be doing this now when it's active. 

[00:05:22] Chris Hudson: Yeah, yeah. Well, you've got things to say. You've been in silence for 10 days.

[00:05:27] Nick Berman: So make up- 

[00:05:27] Chris Hudson: I won't have to say anything for this episode. I'll just wait. I'll just let you, let you freestyle it. 

[00:05:32] Nick Berman: Pull the string and just let me go. But I felt this part of my mind. I couldn't, I felt a physical part that when they told me I could talk, I didn't want to talk.

I wanted to go and just stay in the space and not even just engage. And,

[00:05:42] Chris Hudson: Why do you think that was? 

[00:05:43] Nick Berman: I think the rhythm I was in, I was like, almost, it was part of me that was a bit like. It was like a bit protective of whatever that space was that was coming and I feel like, and actually I don't doubt this, the biggest impact on this work, and I call it work because it is work, is actually on those closest to you, and those, it's not just modeling through capability, but if you have children or you spend a lot of time with a partner, family, the way that you moderate your emotions, the way you moderate yourself through breath or through thought or through exercise has a direct impact on other people.

And so if you're in a position where the term being addictive to misery comes up as to one of the things that they talk about and addiction to, oh, it's craving addiction. So like the sense of craving and as we are in here, as humans as we are as a human race is, and we see this when we learn behaviour around craving exists.

It's well, you take the initial thing, so if you're a child and you're like, I want a chocolate bar. The craving develops more and more. But then, once a chocolate bar is consumed, that craving can still exist. And that exists to people, it exists with money, it exists to all these things, and people lose family members, and then that craving, that need to be connected to that person is still there, and it's almost like it's a phantom, it's a phantom connection.

And so, the idea behind it is acknowledging that, everything, from the moment we're born, we're aging, we are, and you know, a lot of people do a lot of things, grow beards and wear caps to, navigate like age, but like, I'm not talking about people having fear about getting older.

It's different to what I'm saying. There's a real struggle in our society to acknowledge that we have a life cycle, that when we're here for a limit and there's vulnerability that comes in for ourselves. We're parents, doesn't mean I want to die, but if we can accept it, we can be more conscious about that, what we can be more present in a moment and therefore those around us are going to learn that same behavior. But my learned behavior is around someone that just hasn't, probably both my parents hadn't quite conceptualized that they're not going to be here. Like they'll have ailments, they'll go to the doctors, they'll get medicated and on that cycle.

And where if you can consciously know and accept this stuff, then there's ease there. And I mean, whether you can see it or find it or not, it's definitely there. You're definitely worried, but whatever's going to happen after you and I are not here anymore, it's going to happen either way.

Right. So why not let it happen with ease rather than craving existing after you've gone. 

[00:07:50] Chris Hudson: I mean, there's so many questions I wanna ask you but maybe the obvious one is why did you do it and what made you want to do it? 

[00:07:55] Nick Berman: So something that's come out of it, and I know a few people have done it, and they're close as friends. And the idea is you don't talk about this too much about your own experience, because everyone has their own experience. And if anyone, like if you went and did it your experience would be different. So a lot of my philosophy in the last two years since the long term separation out of my relationship is essentially putting myself first. So those around me get to benefit from it. And what I've noticed is fear and unknown and being uncomfortable is actually growth. And this applies to so many aspects in life.

 You are comfortable and you're maintained in a safe job and a safe relationship, I say safe, I mean a secure job, secure relationship, all trusted systems and mechanism, that's great. But what happens when you get to your sort of sixties and seventies and you wanna retire and then you've lived this life of what? Because, if you don't step into- one of my coaching practices essentially is like this whole pathway piece of what we take the right turn. Most of the time, sometimes we'll go straight. We'll never go left. Now, what if I'm really very specifically going to take more left turns in my life.

I'm actually doing that. I don't know what that looks like for me, but if I'm inspired to do something, I think this practice will exist for my, in some capacity in my life, that Vipassana will exist.

What I'm gaining from it is I've already gained another perspective around my anxiety.

I don't entirely understand it as a formula but I feel like even just in a day or two since I've had time with my children, I feel like I've been more connected and grounded with them. And I use that word a lot as well, with grounded being present. And I think again, having children, giving them lots of stuff and things, and doing the things which I want them to have a good life. That's not necessarily a measure. My time with them is a measure of that connectivity. So I guess that's probably at the core of why I would do something is can I be a more capable parent? Can I be a more capable friend to them too? Can I be there and do they feel trust and connection?

Because if I can trust and connect with myself and be more conscious about myself, they're going to learn that themselves. They're going to create their version. If they see dad doing this stuff, like dad, why did you go and sit somewhere for 10 days and not talk, this month, this morning I had my first singing lesson, so I'm just like, I may not ever sing professionally or do anything, but I'm going to try because again, it's an opportunity to do some expression I've never done in my life. Teachers down and I'm like, well, okay, well find more comfort in the things you're going to find challenging and you don't have to know why other than doesn't have to be a why it can just be like a choice. So my choices are I've got to get income.

My choice is I want to work with good people in the right way. And it's not everyone. And when I say work with people with coaching or recruitment, it's just being honest and true. And sometimes that's especially in a marketing and advertising and design industry, we don't always get truth because we're so fast moving.

Like people are just really busy in their minds. And it serves that purpose, that delivery. I feel like people are going to need to slow down. I think mental, obviously mental health and mental health in the workplace is really coming up.

And so I feel the coaching piece of me going into a space of saying, I sat in 10 days of silence and it was confrontational. And then people start a conversation of trust. If I speak to 20 people about, at least one of them thinks about doing it, doesn't have to do it, thinks about it. That's provocative and starts maybe people thinking, okay, well one minute, maybe I could do that, or what could I do or we've got to trust ourselves more, not just being the mundane, not just being the normal, everydayness of what does exist, if that's what you're comfortable with, and it's okay I'm not insulting anyone that has a normal, everyday life, it's just I don't want to get to a point where the world's changed so much, I'm not relevant not necessarily relevant at work, or relevant as a parent, but I I want to be able to be adaptable, and flexible, and capable to change and be someone that says, actually Nick I know you did that thing a few years ago.

I saw a podcast on it, Chris's podcast. And can I talk into that? I'm really comfortable with that to a degree. 

[00:11:26] Chris Hudson: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because to make the change possible, it feels like you need time, you need awareness of it in terms of what you're trying to change. I think a lot of people would sit with their feelings, perhaps not for as long as you did in the last couple of weeks, obviously, but sit with their feelings fairly regularly, particularly if there's a theme that develops over time.

And I think that automatically that kind of sense of what it would mean to self improve in some way and what you would want to tackle would be in your head, I've got things that I want to address in the next little while, there are themes that kind of come up and you reflect on your day to day experiences a lot of the time with people that you work with your kids and partners and so on.

It just feels like you kind of add to that sense of theming. But actually to flip that into a force for change, in terms of no more inertia. You're actually doing something about it and you're taking positive steps to address that, maybe it starts with a fear, maybe there's another trigger, but what are some of the things that gets this thing kind of moving along in a positive direction, do you think?

[00:12:24] Nick Berman: One of the most surprising things, like not having technology around you.

And just having a Casio digital phone. So all I had was a stopwatch, which I played that game when I'm your kid, you stop watching and starting. And I'm just

[00:12:35] Chris Hudson: Oh yeah, with a split second, see how quickly you can do is 

[00:12:37] Nick Berman: the best game. That's the best game in the world. But then the-

[00:12:40] Chris Hudson: What about snake? No.

[00:12:41] Nick Berman: Exactly and actually how many times do you make sure your time is right on the day to compare to the bell they're going to ring. And so, what's really important to acknowledge in this situation is time. And so with time it was so slow. So I was going into these deep, some of it was intentional with the breath, most of it was not.

And I'd be sitting there with my thoughts and with the process that I was sitting in, what seemed like hours mate, like it literally seemed like hours because it was a lot of high intensity emotion.

It was literally like a minute and a half. And it was so, I don't know if I can swear, but I'm not going to swear.

It was so-

[00:13:12] Chris Hudson: You can swear if you like.

[00:13:13] Nick Berman: It was f*cking hard, mate. When you really feel invested in this thing, you feel like you're getting somewhere and then it's like a minute and fucking half. But what ends up happening from that is we all have time. We have time Chris, we actually have really good time and we have calendars and we rely on all this stuff.

This is the things that exist in our days including our Phones and our, it's a bit like this practice that if I continued it essentially should be done at the start of the end of the day an hour a year and it might be a trick here when my kids are there undoubtedly, but if I can create that routine and they're familiar with that my behavior around it and then that can be I can enable that like I can literally wake up, do that before the gym and I go I can do it. And I don't know I'm a parent and I don't have my kids the whole time. It's easier for me to say there's time I get it. But it's also like there's no one more important in the world than you. No matter what you read, no matter how much money you have, and if you don't allow yourself the things you need, including time and space to do the things you need for yourself, which some of that stuff might be really hard, and seeing a counsellor or going to see, specialist people, doctors energetic people in my space is what I tend to look at and feel into then I become less important.

Therefore, as a parent, if your children don't see you doing that for yourself, what are you modeling to your children? You're modeling that you're not as important as you think you are. Even if you're, you can say to them every night, you're the most important little darling, love you so much.

You say that, but if you're not doing that for yourself, the sensory stuff that you're not, lifting your shoulders on back, you're breathing with some, like shallowness or a discomfort. Kids aren't just smart around this stuff, they're going to read on all this stuff. And they may not say anything, because they may, they've never lived a life like this before, like the same way you and I haven't.

I mean, we have lived a life, but not, we've only done one childhood, we've only done one teenage years, we've only done one, been through certain experiences.

I don't think I answered your question, but I think when you said time before I just felt it was like relevant to touch on that, like it's really significant in the context of giving yourself allowance for stuff.

[00:15:03] Chris Hudson: Well, these are the cues, the ones that you're describing. Your kids are picking up on it, and anyone around you is going to pick up on it. This must extend to anything and anyone that you encounter through any day, right? It could be at work, it could be at home, it could be anywhere. But what you bring to that situation in that context is all the baggage that you carry, but you can present in a certain way and people pick up on that, as you say.

And has that been a conversation that you've actively had, with any of the candidates that you've worked with any of the people that you coach? 

[00:15:31] Nick Berman: Working in recruit for 20 years, especially like in the design industry where there's a lot ego at play, including mine too, by the way. There's a lot of care that needs to be shown and support that needs to be shown. And I didn't, I started off, I didn't do it with any intention other than like it was passion and enthusiasm and like an eagerness to kind of support, has just been really sad.

But I've supported people through stuff above and beyond like a recruiter, you know, people lost family members. Like I've had candidates that, have passed away, all sorts of things. People call me and check and tell me that they do that because I care.

And definitely some personal boundaries there that some people might not be comfortable with. But for me, I'm more aware that I've been, I get value from supporting people that I get counter benefit, not just financial gain, but counter benefit from satisfaction and emotional satisfaction point.

I get connection value from, I wouldn't exchange that forward. If I could make money solely from just the aspect of my job, my coaching and my recruitment job, it would be like, well, maybe I should just be a counselor. Maybe I just should be a counselor in some capacity. But what I do know is when I'm sitting in circle and managing a circle.

So I've managed a few group circles mixed in the creative industry and dedicated men's circles. What I feel like the connection, like the loop once someone has a moment of like a breakthrough point, and it might not be a complete breakthrough point, but it might be able to see things in a slightly different angle because you've created a perspective that they just simply couldn't see.

 I'm not there to fix. I'm there because I'm that person that has experience in doing these things and having navigated stuff. But I'm an enabler. I'm going to enable you to be in a space where you trust because recruiters have had to been trusted. You have to build rapport and connection with people to build trust. And there for people's energy and it's like this, Chris, it's literally like I could be talking to you and I can see people, normally in person or on a call, but I can see their energy just dropping I can see it, some, some bits in their face or their eyes or their mouth or their posture they're like, Oh my God.

And I'm like, literally, and sometimes, people book in for a five session thing, five session, of course, like in terms of process, literally half an hour of like a two hour, the first two hour session, they're like, God, this is just what I needed. Because people can't go home and express work at home is very different for people.

They don't see it. Not everyone sees it as like separate. And some people see it very separate. It's like, especially with phones, like with our emails and things, and then with working from home, it's like what point does this become separate? And it's like, it becomes separate up here. If you can't separate it, if you've got a stressful deadline, if you've got a really big impactful thing, how are you going to control that tempo? Of what you might be oversharing with in terms of either at work, if you're having a hard time in your personal life, or if you're having a busy time at work, how do you make yourself available to your children and or your partner? This is where that work exists, is to create space for that. Brene Brown and Tony Robbins are amazing, amazing people. There's a hundred people, modern day philosophers, however you wanna position it. And people talk to me a lot about that. And I don't, I'm not really, I know who they are. But a lot of this work has just come from who I am, and I think I have a lined opinion and stuff around that, and some of it has stuck. I don't normally sit on many podcasts, the way that I gain information is very much through human interaction, like human baseline interaction, if I sat on a call here with 20 people and presented to them and talked to them, versus going in person to 20 people in Brisbane, and I would get because of my face-to-face connective stuff that I don't know.

Again, I say stuff a lot, so I don't really know there's a word to talk about, like a word to describe it. But that engagement that I'm likely to build my network of community, of people that are gonna trust that connection more on that line. It doesn't mean I won't get it online, but it's just a higher emotional return which again, for me, it's been the challenges in monetizing that and making sure I'm not, you know, I want to be relevant and I want to make sure people are getting support from me.

[00:19:06] Chris Hudson: The connection is obviously a very strong theme there. We're talking as well about different levels of practice around self awareness. So if you want to call it that, and on the one end is like very simple to do. People might try out a meditation or they might do some breath work or something.

And then it feels like to them, all the people that haven't even got to that stage that, going on a retreat. would be like way down the track, right? It would be like several steps ahead of that. So I'm just wondering for people listening to this, what would be a helpful start, really?

[00:19:37] Nick Berman: I think a lot of people work in overwhelm, right? We work in an overwhelming space and whether you're in your first job or whether you're in your last job or somewhere in between, society has had a lot of stress that's been caused, I think it probably prior to COVID and then it's probably stepped up that degree of overwhelm. And so, where we're seeing mental health becoming so prevalent is I would probably advise most people that are listening to this is you probably know somebody that's operating similarly to me. Not in terms of my coaching approach, but in terms of doing research around alternative thinking or alternative processes. Obviously the meditation, the breath work exists in these environments, but I feel like we've almost lost contact or connection with our mind and body and that's part of kind of going into the reasons, one of the reasons why I feel like on a sensation level and a mental health level, I'm not an angry person, but I got attributed to being angry a couple of times by people and not like I was being physically they just said they've seen it. Now I don't know if it's relevant, I haven't drunk alcohol for like probably properly for nine years I've had like a couple glasses of wine in nine years and I don't think it's related to that but I feel like there's a disconnect when I get to a certain point of overwhelm. The perception would be that I'm uncomfortable.

I'm stressed and not threatening. I'm just- Some people are seeing angry, angry at me. Others, most people don't, but being more conscious and aware of that requires you to have a slowdown. So people look, if people have had parents who were used to working really hard off their measures of that have been a mortgage and that they've been like, a certain amount of children, all these expectations are there, how do we decipher what our own expectations are because a lot of the time we're living other people's expectations. And so, whatever you need to do, whoever's actually listening, whatever you feel like you need to do, and if there's a person in your life that's been really grounding in terms of not, it might be a parent, it might be an uncle, it might be an aunt, it might be, a friend you haven't caught up with, I would try if you can to go and talk to that person and just ask them, with your hand on your heart, just say I'm feeling like I'm going through a lot at the moment. How do from where you are, like, how am I looking? Be honest, please. I really need this because it's really this self trust piece. We can't necessarily see the entirety of it, like for ourselves. For people that know us and might kind of consciously pull us up in a healthy, balanced way. So I, in my work, I'm inviting people into a space. They don't have to come in. When they get in there, if they trust the space, they'll communicate to the space. Not to me, to themselves in that space. And so, I feel like the possibility, and I know some people are a bit more resistant to communicating to people around them, or even just with communicating, they like just going home and being in their thing, and some people moderate their things with technology. I feel like that would be a really good starting point. Because even if you can rate it, if you can rate what your nutrition is like at the moment without being too judgemental and critical in yourself cause again, we know when people, well, I know when I'm in overwhelm, like I massively overeat, I train really hard, but I massively over eat.

But, which is okay to a degree as long as it's the right food. But if it's the food that's gonna make my anxiety more prominent in my system than working in my body really hard and then I'm consuming the wrong fuel. And so if I came to you and said, hey what do you think?

Like, how am I going? I'm, they're like, well, what are you basing? If you could say, well, I'm basing it on sleep. Like sleep seems really, it seems like it's low, go into a gp, whether it's a family GP that we know really well, a lot of gps are gonna give us the things they think we need and they're gonna check if you're sleeping. But again, they can't get into our heads and know how we are feeling. They'll send you to a counselor to go and do that.

In my opinion, if you want sleeping tablets, if you need something to help you rest, get rest to kind of help you bring you down to like more. then you're very likely to get what you need in that situation, providing you're not taking other substances in some other capacity. So actually better to build trust, as long as you're not going to be dumping on the person, it's an opportunity and you give them an opportunity to say, Chris, like I'd love to get your perspective on something.

If I need you to know that I'm feel really comfortable with you saying no. And that again builds trust for myself setting a boundary again saying this is really hard for me to say this to you because I don't really know myself, and that's really healthy. And it's just it could even be saying that to you who I know reasonably well that feels like a release. I'm not telling you what I'm feeling now because that would just be too much show and tell. I'm feeling something because I've let my guard down. 

[00:23:47] Chris Hudson: That's helpful. I mean, so we've talked about a few things there. We've got nutrition, obviously sleep. Stress, overwhelm. 

Are there any other major signals that people should be looking out for, do you think? 

[00:23:56] Nick Berman: I never ever want to blame my parents for anything I think I thought they went for a long period of time blaming them on stuff and for their insufficiencies or inefficiencies

They did the best they possibly could in every aspect in what they were doing and even me being here today doing the things I'm doing actually down it's totally down to them and me creating a formula that works for me 

And trying to do this next exercise from a very nonjudgmental place is really important because it's not, you can't blame siblings, family members, you can't do that. The circumstances, every situation, the negative that happens where you create strength from. If we can gain benefit, which we can, everyone can, it doesn't mean it's easy, it's actually really fucking hard. If we actually try as a neutral observer say, you know, I'm really triggered at Christmas because I have to go and spend time with my uncle Bob who's really fucking annoying because all he does is talk about his back. And then he just starts putting on the bad TV and then snores. And so, if you can acknowledge that to yourself in whatever version it is for you without being critical or mean because there's potential. We've learned these behaviors from somewhere else, and it's probably where I'm just going to these behaviors.

There's an observatory staff and admittedly, my parents live 10, 000 miles away or kilometers away, and it's actually easy to do it from here. But it's also really raw for me because I don't get practice to eliminate those things from my space. And a lot of what I do is if I'm frustrated or my parents and I'm on the phone to them with my kids. My kids don't want to talk to them, it's noticeable, I'm polite, I'm doing the nice, you know, but they don't want to talk to them, I'm like, that makes sense. When I'm more gentle with myself, and more conscious and supportive, something, you know, like, I love my mum, I really love her, and there's massive triggers that come up, always. It's pretty much always, and it's just a dialogue there. And these people, and my children are my biggest teachers. If I ignore them, if I bag them, then I'm bagging the opportunity for my mum, my children, they're in my heart, they're in my system, they're a part of my genes, and if I bag them, I'm bagging myself.

So that's why I'm trying to say, trying to do it from a kind and honest place, and maybe you have a sibling or a cousin you can just share the equal.

 Like joined space, especially like with all the time of year. I mean, I don't know, I think this will be getting published. I assume just after Christmas.

Don't know if I should be talking about timing, but I'm just in this position where, we're going to be a lot around in these situations and we just do it out of courtesy where actually I, I'm again 46 this the first time I don't really have any plans for Christmas.

I'm going to see the kids for three hours in the morning, which is wonderful. I'm actually really grateful. I don't have anyone like dad got really upset in his eyes I'm probably not going to.

I might go for a run. I might mow the lawns. I might go, just watch a movie that I can't normally watch. I might go to the beach, and again, like no one else is stuff is in my space. So again, this time of year, it's a really good opportunity to slow down, focus. Something I'm just doing these hand movements now, but Qi Gong again, I think I've talked to you a bit about that in the past too.

There's another really good thing around centering energy, Tai Chi and Qi Gong in particular, around our own space and what as a container, our bodies, essentially that there's energy around us that's ours and exists around us, it's ours and within that space it's utilizing that and expressing the energy you don't want. Some of the harder energy is the hardest process, and you can invite other energy in. Another one that I would, again, you don't have to be a specialist you don't have to be the black belt in the whatever. You can just be the person that's looking after yourself.

And some breathing, also some gentle movement. I think, even if you don't like going to the gym, If you can, you know, the alarm goes off in the morning or whatever time you get up. If you can do that slowly with intention and consciously, you can take, say, okay, well, I'm just gonna take 10 slow, deep breaths slowly and set your alarm 10 minutes earlier.

I mean, sleep even if you're having terrible sleep, that breath will probably moderate your space enough. That you, the rest of your day will be calmer. If you jump up and go and do the thing, then that thing will be 20 things in by the time you're done. And then there's probably five things you haven't done, then you're worrying about those things, and then you're like, oh. And this, because you did that stuff, you're probably less likely to miss stuff, but you're also going to do it more consciously and present. And those around you will gain benefit from that. And mornings, as we know as parents, before school, if your kids go to school, can be really hectic. Again, I get that. But you'll find there's more ease in there. There's more capability of just getting more comfort in our choices and the decision making. And then the kids start doing their own stuff. And they'll be making their lunch boxes or getting their other siblings ready or putting the laundry on and they've got to learn somehow. 

[00:28:07] Chris Hudson: Well, that's the dream.

Kids doing everything though. It's interesting that, that sort of, I guess that sense of being caught out. Life is there to test people, and there are always things that are unexpected.

[00:28:16] Nick Berman: Is it?

[00:28:17] Chris Hudson: You're getting up, even that example that you gave around waking up, something we do every day, but actually taking time to take 10 breaths isn't something that you do.

And if you felt if you're thinking about this, maybe the night before you woke up in the night and you knew you had to be somewhere, you would just jump out and do it. That sets how you are responding to that situation. But also it almost says a little bit about how you might respond to another situation.

If you're in a meeting and somebody said something unexpected and you respond in a certain way. It's all the training opportunity for how you could respond in that particular scenario. So it's interesting to me to hear you say that because we're thinking about every moment in a sense being a bit of a training ground.

You can practice it every time and probably get better at it than you probably thought you'd be able to, because you can't, you don't have to accept that I'm bad in the mornings and that's the way it's always going to be because I'm always in a rush and 10 minutes behind where I need to.

You can actually take these steps with every encounter.

[00:29:08] Nick Berman: Just take a moment, right? You know that sense of being bad in the mornings. So say you're, a teenager and you're, and then you'd like go into your twenties, you study university, you miss your lectures and that start of being bad in the mornings potentially comes when you're a child.

And your parents perceive you're bad in the mornings, and they tell you're bad in the mornings, therefore you become bad in the mornings.

[00:29:29] Chris Hudson: Right. 

[00:29:30] Nick Berman: And then so that because of the repetition of that behavior, and maybe, there's an aspect that's true to that. But what happened if I said to you, you know what, your energy in the afternoon is amazing. What if you treat it like that? Rather than having a bad part of the day you're associating with your child, for example, what happens if the opportunity of changing your language around it becomes supportive of the things, the great things that are happening? I noticed that after you eat, your energy's really up.

And you're like, okay, cool. What can you marry up to that child to reinforce positive stuff? Rather than the afternoon, and teenagers are a really good example. Like, school days are too long for teenagers. They should be finishing, and I know people are working, so they can't, again.

But the system has it that these bodies, their minds and bodies are changing.

They're taking so much information and then, we just gime them bloody homework afterwards. A lot of Latin countries have siestas and give that space. It probably actually is a really smart thing. But I guess I'm not picking on what you said, I'm saying to you, we're really quick to be labeled.

And this goes all the way through a lot. And my point is I'm 46. And I'm going to continue to do new stuff constantly my entire life. It's going to challenge me. It's going to be difficult. I'm going to be uncomfortable with it. And the neurons in my mind will keep developing ability to be adaptable if I keep challenging myself.

 My partner will challenge me undoubtedly. Work will challenge me. What will I do to challenge myself? Real consciousness that then becomes like actually a developed strategy where every if I said to you, if you and I sat down, maybe we should do this. You're saying the next three months in 2024, every three months, I want you to come back to me and say, tell me something you've done for the first time and if you could say, okay, I'm rating on a scale of 1 to 10 around, like discomfort, like it's something I've never thought I'd do.

And I'm not saying it needs to be a bungee jump, but it could be you spoke Japanese. It could be, I don't know, like you ate a monkey's brain. If we look into that stuff of new things again as a parent you're doing that stuff and you're like imagine if you could we could go back home and tell your kids you ate monkey brains and they're like, why did you eat monkey brains dad?

You're like, well, yeah So it doesn't mean they need to it's just like you're saying to them I'm actually uncomfortable, but it was there. So I tried it, rather than I'm not gonna do that it's gross or I'm not necessarily about an anti the norm person, but like it just, the way that the structures of society have been set up, it's we work hard, we get educated, we get a job, we go into the system of work and tax and money and income mortgages. Have children go into cycle, but no one until we get to overwhelm point. If we get to overwhelm point is gonna, no one's lived or measured this life before. So again, unless you're gonna invite these sort of strategies I'm talking about, so introduce them into your life. Stuff breaks. Unfortunately people break and relationships break and jobs break and just the opportunity that's gonna exist in the next 20 years for people to be more stronger and capable by themselves, I'm not going to measure it with a thermometer device or a pressure device on my arms, tell me that I've got high blood pressure. I want to be like, okay, cool. This is what I'm doing. This is why I'm doing it.

And I'm going to change it every six months or I'm going to change it every three months. And if I live a fuller life because of that. Is that pretty unmeasurable? Like, I think I'd rather be doing that. I don't want to be sitting there like, in my 70s having some disease that's eating away at some part of my body. But if I can make a choice of difference, and I know there'll be sensitivity around it, I get that I've had those situations. But if I make a conscious choice and I model that to those around me. How do I, like, how do I stand? And I could be the nutty guy with the beard, walks around with no shoes on, or I could be the guy that, you know what there was something in what you said. Someone said to me after the Vipassana guys, they're like, they thought I was Greek or something, because I hadn't spoken. They thought I was Greek, but they just said like, you know, what you're doing is, you're this big physical dude, I've got this sort of tattoo on my arm.

It's like kind of a bit of a spiritual tattoo that looks like a viking and you should go and do Viking stuff. I'm like, yeah, I should go do Viking stuff. And someone's yeah, well, I know someone that can do flame juggling. And I'm like I'm not going to do that. Maybe I'll do that, but why not try it?

I mean, it's safe. I'm not going to do it in the high street. And so,

I've just, that silence has created perception. My big physical nature of who I am has created perception. I'm like, and I'm the one that's creating limitations around, I don't want to do that.

But now I'm like, why not? 

[00:33:32] Chris Hudson: I mean that comes a lot down to how you're perceived in these situations, not you, but anyone really. Along the lines of what we were just saying, it feels like if you can show to people that you are pretty much ready to take on board anything that they want to say or any way in which they want to express something to you that you're happy to listen, really,

 and that you can, you can respond to that, you're showing them that is okay, you're showing your kids that that is okay.

You're demonstrating the behavior of listening and responding, and it feels like that in itself. It's very simple, but it's very constructive. You're basically saying there's a step from being unexpected, unprepared, to a situation that can actually be really positive. 

[00:34:07] Nick Berman: And we're not, we're not going to have massive life shifts here. We're not going to have massive life shifts. We're not. I mean, I, I'm doing a lot of stuff, yeah, and I just made, at some point, I was just, I felt like I was wasting money. I thought, oh, I should be saving my money. I should be doing, it's the same stuff I did my whole life as a parent, living in a house with my ex wife and stuff, and that was like the norm. I'm like, it doesn't need to be the norm. It doesn't need to look what just changing our options, our choices by a few degrees, a little bit more in some aspect of what I'm communicating here. It can just change that, by the end of your life, it could be 20 degrees different, the angle, you know, as you go along the line and yet, who might I meet if I go 20 degrees to the right? But I know if I just go and stay in the same, that same line and do that it's almost like it, that craving piece. I'm craving that need to be right there in that space. Doing that same thing, the same Friday night fish and chips- And what happens if that fish and chip shop closes down? Go get a thai. 

[00:34:59] Chris Hudson: All right. Well, it sounds like you're not making plans for Christmas, but you'll be doing something interesting.

[00:35:04] Nick Berman: Yeah.

[00:35:04] Chris Hudson: How far ahead are you planning these things in advance? Is it something that you're just thinking about in the moment as you described before? Is it you taking conscious effort to make plans as well?

[00:35:13] Nick Berman: So at the moment, about once a month, I have like three practices, ongoing things, physical and emotional maintenance, I'm calling it. And the emotional part then impacts my mental health. And one of them is a counselor.

 One's kinesiology, which has been really powerful for me in terms of expression from my body and retained energy in my body and doing a really healthy, balanced way.

I'm seeing her tomorrow. And I feel like that's a thing. Once you start being in a circle of these space and people who know you're, into the you're into the aspect, like, you know, that's an aspect you're interested in, it essentially becomes more like a possibility. If a person I booked in last year, it's 10 days, it impacted my time with my children.

I probably last year, it definitely wasn't a position in my relationship with my ex where I could actually do that and I could operate in that space. But like it was the part of me that said, I mean, and that was easier now with her. She took that time, but then it was part of me that was still missing out on my time with my children.

I was like, that was like gold, but I know it was going to improve. Anyway, I guess an old client of mine just messaged me on Instagram and said that there's a man's connection warrior piece thing going on, which will involve some of the things and things like primal screaming, which is essentially- I don't know if you're familiar with that term, but I can explain it to you if you're familiar,

[00:36:18] Chris Hudson: I know that I know the band but not this one. 

[00:36:20] Nick Berman: Yeah, so, he essentially sent me this thing that is this sort of American, I think it's Australian American group. And they're like, five or six guys, but they're essentially supporting people physically and emotionally.

It's basically expressing, primal screaming, for example, is if you go somewhere where you're not really heard to do such thing in our country, Australia, obviously there's lots of space. You might struggle if you're in Clapham Common in your apartment, but the idea is that the man, one man potentially gets held back.

Like literally pushes into like a group if you envisage a reverse scrummage. Like one person is literally breathing into their belly like, and you essentially probably have had some difficult or complex thought that's coming up that's kind of giving you a needing an energetic release. And you're like, and literally bring it, but you would scream and express and push. Some people get held down on the ground and there's no physical handcuffs, it's literally man on man. The idea is the energy is released out of bodies because some people sing and yell in the car, they scream in the car and that's obviously a little bit easier. It might be unsafe, so I wouldn't recommend doing that, but it's really getting that expressed energy of what might be retained in our system out is that purpose. Back to your point, I'm not going to do everything that comes along. But I'm certainly like, I've done a couple of little journeys. Like I've done some breathwork journeys. I've done some medicinal journeys and I don't go looking for it. I could live in a small country town where there's lots of opportunities to do so.

And I don't do that. But what I do is say, well, there's an opportunity to create something and there's an opportunity for some space here. And if there's a person at that time in the moment that feels relevant. Then I'm like, okay, possibilities, why not? And again, this is not something I've done my whole life.

I've been pretty much other than alcohol and I smoked for, 10, 15 years. I'm really quite straight kind of guy and I've haven't went advertising for a decent chunk of time. That was, pretty good effort. So

[00:38:11] Chris Hudson: Yeah, all right. So no telling what's next in a sense but you've got some established routines and practices that are helping you along, it feels like. Is the, you know, the scale that you were mentioning before about how maybe unexpected or uncomfortable would make you feel, how outrageous it would be, is that a factor?

Are you thinking, okay, well, I've got to try something that's going to make me even more uncomfortable next time. Is it- 

[00:38:30] Nick Berman: No. I think I said it to you before. Like I was thinking about buying singing lessons for my children, like for, it's her birthday and I was singing lessons for her and I got talking to the singing teacher who was an older lady, and she was, she was lovely, lovely local woman and we got talking and she just talked to me about like how she works with a lot of men and she a lot of men with essentially lacking expression. It ties a little bit into that primal screaming piece around expression and learning how to communicate and articulate, because a lot of people that go to school and not necessarily get bullied- I can't speak on the behalf of, I'm 46 now again, I'm talking about like longer than 20 years ago. But we're now in this position where people treated badly at school by teachers and they weren't able to comprehend or process or communicate to their parents around it.

And it might be one thing, but that put down essentially has an impact on their life, but it shouldn't. And so we got talking about it. And so I had a singing lesson this morning. And it was lovely. It was really nice. And I sang Yellow like, and then we got a guitar out cause she's teaching.

She's just, it's really supportive to do it, let you know what you're doing and what you're playing. And she's just like really kind, gentle and I think I'll continue with it, but that's the sort of easy, again, it's an opportunity, but it's about, again, it comes down to that piece around trust, and connection. I am really fortunate to live in a town where there's a lot of talented, creative people, there's a lot of spiritual people, there's a lot, and I think probably outside of cities there are these, you know, it's Byron Bay or, I'm sure there'd be dozens of them in Victoria and Melbourne, they just exist and that's wonderful to see and I think it's growing, it's a growing piece but no, it doesn't have to be the most outrageous thing, it doesn't have to be life threatening, but it could be just something really basic because again, when my kid goes and has her first music lesson for the first time, I know I can bond with that now, I can connect with that now.

I said, Oh, I had a lesson with her too. And isn't she lovely? Or, and that in itself will be an opportunity, and why make it one that's maybe missable, so, I just feel like just trying, because at some point, someone in my life told me I wasn't able to, and I hadn't learned that in a healthy, balanced way.

It wasn't someone took me aside and it was hard, I guess, you know, if you weren't in that space of being successful or good, or even just average, if you're below that point, then, you know, it's like, well, teachers see that as extra work, it doesn't make them look good, so this is, again, my perception of what it was like rather than now. I have a different opinion now, but that will be a very long story. I think we just we should never really be too old to learn.

And I know podcasts, information technology, these wonderful things exist.

And I'm really appreciative and there's a lot of stuff that we can do outside of our devices that promote and including going for a run and not having your device on you, not actually not knowing, oh my wife's going to call me with something or works and call me just letting go of that, like putting it away and getting away from you, not just from a, an active energy on you, but from a space of you like, okay, well, It's just me, it's my body, it's my mind, it's my heart, it's my gut, it's my legs.

I can feel myself rather than be like, oh I'm listening to my favorite song and here's my playlist. And I'm looking forward to messaging so and so on WhatsApp when I get home. And I come across as

being a bit skeptical of technology, but I do really have high value for it and maybe I don't moderate it enough. I think I'm learning to moderate it more in my own world, but I also feel like. I think it contributes a lot to people's anxiety and overwhelm without us knowing, in terms of having healthy outlets, having a balance. Yes. If you can find balance with it.

Yes.

[00:41:35] Chris Hudson: Yeah. I mean, there's something to be said for it, obviously within the context of the rhythm of life and people obviously use it as a crutch really to make things work, to be organized to get ahead, to be informed that all of these things, and actually it is an opportunity for that, but at the same time grounding in yourself like you're describing today, balancing that with probably more real connection, either within your own mind, body, spirit, but also with other people that you know, and whose time you value. Like you were saying earlier in the conversation, the time that you spend talking to 10 people, 20 people face to face is actually invaluable to you from the point of view of understanding them, but also in gathering knowledge in that sense too. So I think if there's one big takeout from this conversation today, as well as the monkey brains and the interesting things that we might try from it, it's, is that, yeah, that connection can actually be the starting point for finding out more about not just other people but about yourself and how they respond to you as well. 

[00:42:30] Nick Berman: No one's lived any of their lives before, and when you take into account how new technology is, this technology is what we're using and know what the potential long term benefits and negatives are. It's relatively untested. Again, I know you're not, you're a little bit younger than me, we don't know what the developmental aspects are going to come in with the next five, 10, 15 years in technology potentially takes it into another space. And that's okay to a degree. I'm not going to be creating any fear mongering around it because it's just, I think you make your choices. If you can make a choice based on your welfare and your health, and you're prepared to do that, then that's what we're talking about. But when we're talking about the energy, you know, like it's great we have health apps. It's great. We have the system saying, you know, you spend X amount of doing this, but if someone says to you, you can't do it, are you going to stop?

No, you're not. Whether it's games or whether it's social media or whether it's, communication with people, it's like, well, if we can slow down to create a safe space for ourselves, That's what we're talking about and that's why, again, with my work, the coaching exists well and will continue, I think, to exist well and develop well is because of the opportunities that I think people want to, they know they're addicted.

It's a bit like when you know you're an alcoholic and you can't stop.

Some people will be able to stop and it's supporting that mindset. Supporting the trust in it is possible. Tell me to stop drinking coffee though or else I might have to sort of stab you. 

[00:43:46] Chris Hudson: I don't want to make you angry. I don't.

[00:43:47] Nick Berman: Nah. That would not be good for anyone.

[00:43:50] Chris Hudson: Though coffee is a big thing. But hey, really appreciate the chat today, Nick. We've taken a lot from it. The listeners are going to get huge amounts from it just in terms of your perspective your stories, your experiences, but also in terms of how they might tune into something that's important to them.

In their own spheres and in 

[00:44:07] Nick Berman: Yeah, 

[00:44:07] Chris Hudson: as well. So

[00:44:08] Nick Berman: and within all this work, what I can pretty much guarantee, no matter what your, whatever your relationship is with others, family member, your work, going to work, will make a massive difference. Trust me if you can just give yourself some allowance to integrate some of these things or just be more slightly more conscious in your decision making. It has a massive flow effect and you might be surprised about how people start interacting with you if you're feeling stressed at work or incapable or limited in some shape or form if you start if your communication becomes clear and not coming from an anxiety point here, you're either talking from your guts, like you're talking from your heart, like honestly, people will value that. And again, I think the opportunity is great. Just going into the work piece. I know we talk about work too much is really connecting into that and then really bonding with that because

 we have so much power and capability so much. And that's why I invite every one of your listeners is to be more aware of how powerful you can be with your decision making.

[00:45:04] Chris Hudson: Good stuff powerful stuff. I want to say 

[00:45:06] Nick Berman: I'm gonna be on the phone to you tomorrow to get to come up with a strategy. I'm not letting you go, mate. I'm not letting you go. I'm gonna come up with a strategy and you and I hold each other accountable to this, like in a nice gentle way. Like, we'll think of some reasonable stuff and it doesn't have to be like, you have to go and be quiet for 10 days anywhere. I'll be more gentle with you than that.

[00:45:23] Chris Hudson: I'd actually be quite interested in that, just from what you're describing. I'll be quite interested to do it. So I'd have to 

you'd be you'd come out like a guru 

 Yeah, really appreciate your time Thanks so much Nick and if people want to get in touch if they've got a question, they want to find out a bit more about you and, maybe they just want to have a chat, obviously 

about something. What's the best way to get 

[00:45:41] Nick Berman: in touch? 

The best things are probably just from a messaging systems really. I mean, you can email me at Nick, N-I-C-K at hire, H-I-R-E, ground.co or one of the messaging systems through Instagram. So nick@hireground.co is the handle or directly on my LinkedIn it's probably the best thing. I love this work and I'm really grateful for you, like giving me the opportunity to talk to your audience. And like I said to you, I can't change the world, right. But what I can do is just try to be honest and true to what I'm trying to be. And if I can do that and inspire at least one person to have one of the conversations that doesn't have to do anything actionable. that's what I'm hoping to do with this stuff. So really grateful. Thank you.

[00:46:19] Chris Hudson: No, we appreciate you. Thanks so much, Nick. And have a good day in whatever you choose to do. Enjoy it. 

And yeah, we'll talk again soon. Thanks so much. 

Okay, so that's it for this episode. If you're hearing this message, you've listened all the way to the end. So thank you very much. We hope you enjoyed the show. We'd love to hear your feedback. So please leave us a review and share this episode with your friends, team members, leaders if you think it'll make a difference.

After all, we're trying to help you, the intrapreneurs kick more goals within your organizations. If you have any questions about the things we covered in the show, please email me directly at chris@companyroad.co. I answer all messages so please don't hesitate to reach out and to hear about the latest episodes and updates.

Please head to companyroad.co to subscribe. Tune in next Wednesday for another new episode.