E44 Berlin Liew - Career Climb Hacks: Radical Candour x Ruinous Empathy

"I love the advancements of technology, but when it comes to connection, I'm very conflicted about it."

In this episode you’ll hear about:

• Balancing radical candor and ruinous empathy
• Connections, networks and the role they play in your success
• Feedback and how to use it for professional growth
• Observation and listening to identify areas for improvement
• Timing of feedback to ensure it is well-received
• Taking a genuine interest in people's lives to form deeper connections

Key links

Design Outlook
Xero
Web Directions Summit
Ladies that UX Melbourne
NAB
Belong
Kim Scott’s TED Talk on Radical Candour 
Shasta Nelson
The Year of Living Danishly
Tim Duggan - Work Backwards
Gallop Clifton Strengths test

About our guest

Berlin Liew is an aspiring design leader, who is deeply passionate and driven to activate ideas, create meaningful relationships, and question how we do things to see if there’s a better way (spoiler alert: there always is).

After graduating with a degree in linguistics and spending 6 years working in media, she career-changed into the world of design and dived headfirst into large product organisations, such as NAB, Belong, and Xero. She’s currently a Senior Product Designer, and despite the job title, she believes you don’t have to wait to be ‘at the top’ in order to drive change and impact for your customers, the business, and for those who work with you.

Outside of work, Berlin is an active contributor to her local design community, having emceed Design Outlook 2023, co-curated Web Directions Summit 2023, led Ladies that UX Melbourne, and spoken at various design meetups.

About our host

Our host, Chris Hudson is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of Company Road, helping businesses and leaders find impact and positivity.

Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked

For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at https://companyroad.co/podcast/

Transcript

Chris Hudson: 0:04

hello everyone. And welcome to this next episode of the company road podcast. And in this month of May, we've been exploring the theme of building a solid foundation for growth within organizations and looking at what makes businesses thrive and how intrapreneurs navigate some of those growth pathways and how to adopt or cultivate the growth mindset. So I felt it really important to bring on another high energy, high profile guest who is right in the throes of her own growth pathway and is taking, decisions and looking at all the options all the time in terms of what's available to her. And has made some really good decisions and that's evident obviously in her career path so far. And, Berlin, you've taken some seriously epic roles and some challenges in your career so far. And yeah, massive warm welcome to the show. Thanks so much for coming on.

Berlin Liew: 0:50

Thanks for having me.

Chris Hudson: 0:51

Cool. So Berlin, you describe yourself as a bit of a, an aspiring design leader and deeply passionate. And driven to activate ideas, creating meaningful relationships. You like to question how we do things within the world of work seeing if there's a better way in some way or another, and you've changed careers a few times, which we might get into in the next part, but you basically move from media. Into the world of design and you've worked at some really large Australian organizations here, such as NAB, Belong and Xero. And you've done a lot of things and outside of work, you've also been a massive contributor to the design community, which is awesome here in Melbourne and in Australia working with Design Outlook 2023 and you co created the The web direction summit 2023, and you've led the ladies that UX in Melbourne. And you've spoken at many meetups as well. So it's really cool that you're on the show. And I just want to tell a brief story about how I first came across you because you were the MC at the design outlook conference last year. And you just simply awesome, like just electric energy in the room and, seeing you in action there on the stage, it was just mind blowing. So thank you. Thank you for putting on such a good show that day. But I'm also really delighted to have you on as a guest on the podcast, because I find it really rare that you meet somebody with both, that magnetic presence and personality, but also, the kind of sense of real feeling and passion for other people but also passion for what you do as well. So very excited to have you on the show and I want to start with a question, which is maybe. Going to start to paint a picture for our listeners around the sorts of things that you do and, what you've been able to do, but let's start with some of the main influences that you've, you felt have been strong in your career so far.

Berlin Liew: 2:33

Yeah. Wow. Chris, I don't even know how to come back from that. But yeah, thank you so much for such a nice kind intro influences in my career. It's quite funny. I think the earliest influence is my mother who worked in advertising. It wasn't my entry point into advertising. I naturally fell into it without talking to her. So that's how sometimes the universe works, but she was in advertising during a period that I would say looking back was dominated heavily by men in advertising. So like the early nineties, late eighties. And she worked in, a creative agency, they the model changed in the nineties, but essentially it was a creative media agency and worked all the way to the top. She couldn't be the managing director because back in that day, a managing director had to be held by a man. So she was a deputy. Managing director, but she eventually became ceo at another place, but just watching her conduct herself I used to go into the office to you know Be a 10 year old and play around with like office stuff. But watching how she conducted her space her people around her friendships really set, a starting foundation for me. It wasn't that I wanted to go into advertising, but I saw how someone conducted themselves in this space. And I guess subconsciously that has had a huge influence of how I work, how I carry myself professionally, but personally as well, my mother has very good relationships with people. And I also think that's influenced me with the way I meet and connect with people. So she's a big influence whether I used to acknowledge it or not. And in terms of coming into the space of design, I have to say another funny influence I would say is when I was younger, I really wanted to be a detective that was the original ambition that I was aiming for. And a lot of it had to do with like figures like Sherlock Holmes and. All those detective stories I would read as a kid. There were many there was one on the Disney channel called Shelby Wu. So she was an an Asian American detective. So I was like, I can be like her. I can solve some mysteries. And even though I never went down that path I think why I think about those influences when it comes to design is because a lot of it had to do with problem solving. And be given a puzzle that you don't really know the answer to, and you're just trying to figure it out, and you're going along, you've got some hiccups and mysteries and surprises along the way, but at the end of the day, with the help of maybe some friends or not you'll come to a solution. So, I still think about those earlier influences, and even though there's no direct correlation to design, I still see them. Even though I'm no longer a detective today.

Chris Hudson: 5:20

Oh, I love that. Yeah. So is it the books or is it on TV as well?

Berlin Liew: 5:24

TV. I sucked it all up. Like there were, like different types of renditions. There was a rendition of Sherlock Holmes being frozen in time and then resurrected in like the future where people are holding him. Hovering in space and whatnot, and I just sucked it all up because I thought that was fabulous, But I think it was just the fact that it was solving a puzzle or a problem that you don't really know the answer to. And even till today I watch a lot of crime because I'm just like, what would I do if I was in the spot and what would you do then? Hey, what about that person? And so like the curiosity is still explored in different realms, even though my day to day is a little bit more, less interesting, maybe?

Chris Hudson: 6:01

Yeah, fair enough. I like that because it's it's almost like If you imagine your day at work, or your year at work, or whatever it is, the timeframe, but you're basically in the story of the book, or whatever the situation is and you're seeing things happen. And, the comparison to a TV show or book is great because, from a storytelling point of view, you're always going to get to some tense moments, and you're always going to get to the end basically, and the end will resolve itself. So as long as you're happy with that kind of motion, then you know, it's always going to lead to something else. So it feels like it would really inform the way in which you come to work every day and show up.

Berlin Liew: 6:37

Oh, definitely. I always like to say it's the same story, but a different chapter, depending on which chapter you are in your life. So.

Chris Hudson: 6:44

And yeah, in terms of. Some of the different experiences in the companies that you worked at along the way starting out and then going through different roles to obviously work up to where you are now, what have been some of the key steps there, do you think, and when do you, sit within an organization, realize you can be something great within that team or within that organization. How do you notice that there's an opportunity and, what's going through your head at that sort of time?

Berlin Liew: 7:11

Yeah. In terms of like getting into those organizations, I think that was your first question. I look back at my, so I've, Career changed into designs. I've worked for more than 10 years, but my tenure in design is about five and a bit years. So it looks short on paper, but I've been working for a while. When I look back on those five years of design, I noticed that a really key enabler is the connections I've had with people that have gotten me opportunities in those spaces. Not that because I know someone I've got a job, not at all, but that I've met somebody who has said, Hey, there's an opportunity to work at this company. Would you be interested? Let me tell you some of the problems this company is currently facing. Are you interested in that? If so I can. Give a heads up to the hiring manager and you're still on your own as you interview, but you've already had, a recommendation of somebody who's in the business. And so at NAB, I had that from a, what was a professional mentor at the time now is a very good friend of mine because we gelled so well that we're now friends, but it was somebody who knew I was interested in design, hadn't yet studied it even, but was interested in it, spoken to him socially about it. Did a, I did a course while working full time in advertising, just to see if this is something I really wanted to do after the course ended, I really wanted to work in this space. And a few months later, he let me know that there was an opportunity at NAB coming up where they were going to grow their team and they were happy to take on folks that. Didn't have the, you would normally see you need to have at least two, three years of experience, but now I've wanted to grow a big team and they wanted to have a bit more of a longevity of like the career paths of their designers. So that was an opportunity I had to seize. And that's how I got in and similar stories like that for. Belong and Xero where I've had folks help me, understand what the challenges are of the company at the time. Understand is this something I want to work on? And usually it was and that's, I guess that's one big thing I wanted to call out. Like, merit is amazing, but I think I learned by doing it that a lot of it also has to do with your networks.

Chris Hudson: 9:20

Yeah.

Berlin Liew: 9:21

Yeah. And

Chris Hudson: 9:22

finding, so finding that ally and almost aligning your connections with, I guess the types of conversations that could lead you to some of those doors being opened, or at least to explore what was right and presumably what was wrong as well, that you may have made other connections with other people that you thought, no, that was probably not exactly the right thing. Did that happen to you? Yeah. Yes, there's

Berlin Liew: 9:41

plenty. And like, I have made mistakes as well, where I've said no to something because society tells you, you need to have X amount of time in a particular company. And I didn't want to create a bad perception of me from jumping companies. But I look back on one of those opportunities where somebody I admire greatly was running a design team in Melbourne and said, I'm growing my team. I need someone of your caliber. Would you be interested? And I really wanted to, because this is someone I looked up to immensely. But I had just started a new role and I didn't want to, create a bad impression. And I don't regret doing it. I'm sticking around, but I think sometimes you. Depending on the stories you tell yourself, you say no to things that you later wish, you wonder what would have happened if I had jumped. But at the same time, I made a decision and I'm very happy to go with, with that decision because it's opened up other doors. Otherwise you will always be plagued with what ifs, right?

Chris Hudson: 10:39

Yeah. Or sometimes people find their way back to Some of those points in time,

Berlin Liew: 10:44

you

Chris Hudson: 10:47

know, you go back to it and then, maybe the door opens again.

Berlin Liew: 10:49

And you had another question in that very first question it was a question about looking at opportunities and finding something.

Chris Hudson: 10:57

Knowing where, yeah, around opportunities and knowing, when an opportunity was there. So, so if you're thinking about, when you're in an organization where you're working a day job in a team and you're seeing things happen around you, but How do you know that something is presenting itself as an opportunity is probably the simplest way to ask the question.

Berlin Liew: 11:15

Yeah, okay. That's a great question. Especially when you go into a new space you're fresh, right? You're like, you're the outsider, you're coming in and this is something I picked up from watching CEOs enter a new company. I think they do it very publicly, but if you're paying attention, it's quite fascinating to learn off them. But the first things they normally do. Is they observe, they listen, they don't really do anything for maybe a few months, Depending how large the company is, but they listen. They are some, if some, if the company is large enough, they'll do a listening tour and visit offices and hear what people are talking about. What are your concerns? Talk to me about the things that make you happy here and make you frustrated here and so forth. So I think when I go into new companies, that's something I try to. Intentionally do. I naturally like to go into a room and have conversations and chat to people. Something that I'm not very good at, and I'm very aware of this is the opposite where you actively listen. And. Observe, not to say I'm really bad at it. It's just, it doesn't come naturally to me. I just want to jump in and get involved and contribute. But I now see the value of stepping back and observing and listening as well. So when I do that, and I've done it consciously in the last two jobs, cause I watched it all happen in other companies before Belong and Xero. So I was like, all right, when I come into Belong and Xero, I want to be very conscious about it. I think you become more acutely aware when people around you speak about the same problem and there is a sense of resignation about solving it. It's like, I know that this is a problem, but it's been around for a while. This is how we deal with it. Here are all the hacks. So here are all the ways I deal and go about it.

Chris Hudson: 13:05

And so

Berlin Liew: 13:06

I think when you're observant enough to pick that up, that's when you know that there's an opportunity. And sometimes it can be quite overwhelming because depending on how large the organization is, It might not be a problem that you can solve alone. It might be a really wicked problem that is systematically connected to so many other things. But I think that's like the first step is just being aware of it, calling it out like, Hey, have you noticed that there is this situation? Is everyone aware of it? What has been done about it? But yeah, I think the first step observing and listening when you see and hear folks speak about the same thing over and over again, then being curious and asking about it, not being judgmental about it, not to be like, Oh, this is problem. How terrible this place, but just to go, Hey, why? I'm sure there's plenty of smart people in this place. And those have come before me. Did this exist then what was done about it? What worked, what didn't work and why is it still a lingering problem? Like what could be the fundamental root cause of it, but just approaching it with curiosity is another thing I've learned to Embrace because it can be really easy to come in fresh and go this is shit, right? But that's also not being very empathetic and then, having worked in tech I've only worked in tech for five years and I already know enough to go If people could have things their way half the problems we have in tech wouldn't exist today, but we have so many other Limitations and barriers and constraints that we have to work with So sometimes the outputs that you see as a consumer or an outsider It's subpar, but actually I understand why I got there, right? So those are my personal strategies and like very consciously trying to implement them. Because sometimes it's not natural to people, right? Like you just have to catch yourself and go, all right, I should try something different. So, yeah.

Chris Hudson: 14:55

Yeah, I really like that. I think what you're describing is it's very astute basically to notice that, and learn from the different movements that you see elsewhere in the organization. So if a CEO is coming in, new team leader, new member of the team, whoever it is it changes the dynamic almost overnight. And you can see how people respond to that in some way. And LinkedIn actually the other day and it was about a marketing thing and they were talking about CMOs and CMOs who basically, like the way it used to be was that apparently sounds very old fashioned, but basically the CMO would have to come in and basically prove their worth within 30 or 60 or 90 days. And they had to deliver as much as they could. Otherwise they'd just, they'd be out, they'd be fired. And somebody else was like, it's a massive chain of comments and people saying, Oh, it doesn't really work that way anymore. Like, and some people were saying, Oh, you need to get your worth out there. You need to show results within, two weeks or, lots of debate around it. And then other people saying, no, it's okay, actually understanding the situation that you're in is incredibly valuable and you wouldn't want to be seen to be rushing into decisions that quickly anyway. So, yeah. Learning first is, and listening first is going to be the most important step, but it's still a massive debate and you've touched on it, I think, in the point that you made, which is, what can you learn from the people that have already, that are already there? They faced a lot of the same situations. They've tried to answer a lot of the same questions, and that can lead you to maybe another provocation or another question that could then. Unlock something, but it feels like, you're entitled, aren't you, to, if you're starting out in an organization, to ask some of those questions. And I think that period is quite sacred. Like you don't get it. If you stay, if you've been there five years, different story. If you're there, first few weeks, you can make quite an impact. Impact just from how you ask the questions, I think,

Berlin Liew: 16:42

but I think something I've also learned is the timing of when you ask those questions also matters. So you could have really good intentions. You want to contribute. You want to say, I've spotted something that maybe you're not aware of, and I want to let you know, but the timing of it also matters because it must have to do with more to do with human psychology than like work. But, You're a newcomer, you're not yet trusted, I would say people are just trying to understand how to work with you, how to, get to know you so knowing when to go, Hey, I've observed a few things, I would like to share them, not with the intention to diss anyone, but to say that I think this is holding us back from doing better, right? I think knowing when to. Put that out there is also really important and it goes against, I think, an innate human behavior when you start somewhere new because you're there to prove yourself. You've hired me. I want to prove to you that I'm worth being hired. I am valuable. Let me show you my value now. And also you're in probation. So really you have this like subconscious urge to prove your worth. So I get it. It's an innate. So in. In, like in you, you want to prove your worth, you want to show outputs, right? And yet, I think there is a delicate balance of watching, which is not about producing, it's just taking in and then timing it right to say, here's what I have noticed, have observed, have concluded, or maybe have suspected or hypothesized what say you? And normally I do that with a manager. And if it's not a manager, I would take it to someone else. And I did this at zero because I came in and zero operator extremely differently to my previous companies. And I wasn't sure if this was just something I was not used to as, cause I was only like three years into tech. So maybe it's just my ignorance or was it something that I actually should raise? And it was little things like the siloed nature between design and engineering and product was really apparent. And before in my previous company, it was less siloed. So I was just curious. I wanted to ask. And. I would start with my manager and then go on to other folks, but it took me some time because I didn't want to be that person that just brazenly like walked in the door and started a conversation that potentially might be uncomfortable for folks. Yeah.

Chris Hudson: 19:03

Yeah. People don't always like, like that sort of questioning. It can feel like criticism,

Berlin Liew: 19:09

it can.

Chris Hudson: 19:09

Yeah, the timing is an important one because, yeah, I remember another situation and, I just started working as a consultant with a new client and the client had been very sad to see this previous consultant go and I came in and I was asking all these questions and it was so many questions, but just at the wrong time and it was all around the time that, pretty much not in strategy mode, but in delivery mode and, any big questions like, why are you asking me this? Because we just need to get the thing done. And yeah, it actually unsettled the client to the extent that he didn't have any, he didn't have any confidence in me or any trust in what I was doing. Wouldn't want to answer the questions and then I had to move on to another project. So yeah, he basically asked for me to go off it and that was pretty, pretty hard to take. But at the time I thought, why is that? And then that's a lesson.

Berlin Liew: 19:57

Yeah. No, when to

Chris Hudson: 19:58

ask the question.

Berlin Liew: 20:00

Sometimes it's just out of good nature, right? You are genuinely curious and you want to ask, but then I think it's that heightened self awareness around you that you forget also plays a big role, so it has nothing to do with you per se, but it's like, Oh, when I zoom out and I look at the situation, I understand why things played out that way, right? And so what do you do next time is up to you. But I think we forget to do that sometimes. So I have, I've made those mistakes plenty of times as well. So yeah.

Chris Hudson: 20:28

And I think also the way in which people respond to questions will probably tell you quite a lot about that organization. So if through your interview stages, like you may have got to, these days, you probably have to do eight or 10 rounds or whatever it is before you get, get the role, but it's a lot. And you feel like you've got to know some of the team members, but you're still a bit unsure, you might not know about the culture. In its entirety, unless you spent or know somebody, you spent time in there or, somebody in there, but I think that actually using that opportunity to ask a question and engage the reaction gives you another learning opportunity in some way, usually I'd have said, there's a really standard thing. It's a question that's asked of anyone who's been there for two or three months. They want your view on how they want your feedback on how it's been, but give us, tell us about some of the things that you've noticed basically in, and it can be good or bad or anything in between. And yeah, I noticed this like one day I was in a, it was a pretty senior roles reporting to the CEO and the CEO basically asked me for that, but then really only wanted to basically prove or disprove his own ideas. And then told me immediately that, it wasn't probably the culture whereby I'd be able to take that forward. And, the things that I really believed in and really own them and implement them. And there was a misalignment basically between what I was observing and what the CEO already thought was the right answer. So have you been in those situations where you felt like there's, it's almost like a really obvious conflict and it feels a little bit awkward.

Berlin Liew: 21:55

I have, I have indeed, especially with folks who ask for feedback. But do not seem to be in the right hit space to receive it. And you give it anyway, right? You give some feedback with the intention that this is supposed to better whatever it is that you're talking about. But it's just been disregarded and that is quite telling because you're not entirely sure. Are you doing it to check a box? Are you doing it because you've been asked to? Because I don't think the interest is genuinely there but feedback is a really interesting thing because especially in the world of opportunities, growth improving yourself, feedback is key. Like without feedback of any kind, really, you can't improve. Like, we had this thing I'll come back to this in two seconds, but it will give some background info, but we talked a lot. At zero about ruinous empathy, which is a term I believe Kim Scott popularized along with Radical Candor, but in the direct opposite of Radical Candor, there's ruinous empathy where you are so nice to folks that you don't want to tell them the truth sometimes about things. So like, Oh, I really. I want to tell you, that you always run late, but you're just, I know you don't mean it. So I don't want to upset you. I really don't want to upset you. So I just rather not deal with that conflict right now. But the problem when you bow down to ruin his empathy, you're so nice, but you're actually not giving them, you're not being kind to them by telling them what it is that they can do to better themselves. And it doesn't need to be rude, right? It just needs to be open, honest and kind. And so when I think about. Feedback and I've gone through my own personal journey with feedback because I've been given all sorts of feedback throughout my personal professional life that it's made me very curious, like why I have certain reactions to certain types of feedback and when I went through it. This journey. I read up a book called Thanks for the Feedback. It's written by two Harvard researchers that went into the world of feedback. And there's lots of reasons why we naturally reject it. Because one of the arguments they give is that innately, we have this feeling that we just want to be accepted just the way we are. We don't want to change. We want to feel like we belong just as how we are. So feedback is telling us it. That something's not right with this. And so this is like very innate pick against feedback which I understand. I resonate very deeply with some of it. But also a lot of it could be the framing. So like another one is instead of saying the word feedback, which, from God knows how long might, you might have a negative connotation attached to it, whether you agree or disagree, it might be subconscious, but if you say, I have some advice for you that I think might help. Propel you forward or, I've noticed this thing that's holding you back and I've got some advice. Would you be willing to hear it? Our mindset of how we're willing to accept that is suddenly a little bit more positive. And so like, I've been playing around with that kind of stuff. So when I meet someone who doesn't want, To adhere to feedback and I just know this person really needs to hear X. One example I've got is someone I used to work with that was very blunt not blunt in a terrible way, just blunt and blunt with folks that come from like I grew up in Southeast Asia and in Southeast Asia. Bluntness is can be taken as being very rude and, the complete opposite being polite. So it's just like letting them know, Hey, I know this is how you like to communicate, but just to be mindful of like, I guess when you're in a room with folks like from Southeast Asia, like maybe the reason why they're not being direct with you is because of this. Have you taken that into consideration? I've tried to frame it as not about the person, but it was also like. this, you're doing this thing. I think it's holding you back from actually getting so much more impact with this audience. I'm not, I want to share that with you in case it hasn't come to your attention. What do you think? Cause I'm not here to also tell you how to do things better, but it's like, Hey, I've noticed this thing. I think it's holding you back. If you unlock it, imagine like how much more impact you could have. What are your thoughts? You might think I'm crazy, and if you do, then I can't do anything about it. But that's one way I try to go around it, if it's not being received in a way that is fruitful.

Chris Hudson: 26:13

Yeah, nice. Is that quite an informal chat? When do you bring that stuff up? In the scheme of day to day work and, is there a right time or is there a wrong time?

Berlin Liew: 26:23

That's a great question. So like lots of people have different opinions about this and I've spoken again to lots of people in my phase of like learning everything there is to learn about feedback. Some people do it very consciously, like every Thursday they make it a point to like ask someone in the office or online for feedback. That's one person I know who did it just like. Without fail, like going to the gym, like I don't make any excuses for it. I find someone to have a chat about it, which I was quite amazed by. Actually, that was a bit more casual, but intentional. Another thing could be when I do it, I did it with my managers in the past, but I also phrased it as a single question, which is like, what's one thing that's holding me back right now, just one thing. And one thing that's holding me back. So it has to be feedback that. With some action improves me because sometimes feedback can be a bit warpy and it's convoluted with like, information about your personality or whatnot. So that's quite hard to use. Cause I've had feedback before about being too confident, which. I felt like it was a bit hard to work with, like, how is this holding me back being too confident? One, one thing that I came up with myself was, am I taking over a room and taking away opportunities of others to speak and be heard? That wasn't what the person said, but I was trying to make sense of like, how can I use this piece of feedback to improve myself? So now I've just phrased it that way. Like, what is something that you've noticed is holding me back? Because, and just one thing so that you don't feel like you need to give me a whole essay, and I don't feel like I need to act upon an entire list, right? So I feel like that makes it a little bit easier to get to make casual every week.

Chris Hudson: 28:02

Yeah, make casual, but it also makes it easier for that person to, to answer it. Really? Because I think, maybe some that are feeling a bit, maybe a little bit apprehensive about the role they're in or, how they're going about things, they might ask a broader question because that, so how am I doing or, you

Berlin Liew: 28:18

know, it could be really

Chris Hudson: 28:19

casual because they want to make it casual. But if it's not framed, with a specific answer in mind, then it's actually really hard for that person to answer.

Berlin Liew: 28:27

Yeah, absolutely. And I had a, I think a lot of it has to do with how the person that trust that you have with the person you're having this conversation with. I had a manager that not only did we have a lot of trust with one another, but when I asked this question to them about six months of working with them, they did say to me I love your energy. You're very excitable. And when you go into a room, you want to like run the show, which is fabulous. Sometimes you need folks to do that in a room, especially if it's a meeting, especially if there's a lot on the agenda and you want to be like to time, you're very good at that. One thing I know that's holding you back is you, I'd like to be the first that talks, but then if you share so much, sometimes we run out of time and folks in the room don't get a chance to speak. What are your thoughts about that? And when they said that to me, I acknowledge that is one of my strengths, but also when it's in my blind spot, it's one of my weaknesses communicating confidence and communicating and whatnot. And so one of the things I tried to do after that conversation and then have been very cognizant of it ever since is. If I am in a room and there is like, are there any questions? I consciously tell myself, even if I have like a list of five, six, seven questions, I don't go first. I always give, especially if I look around the room and I have worked with a lot of folks that I would say are a little bit more introverted than me. I make it a point to make sure that they're all heard first. And this was about four years ago when I was given this feedback. And so I have to say before then, I remember not being so cognizant of like the downsides of being so confident speaking in a room, but when it was framed like that, I understood and I, it made so much sense to act on it. And then since then especially with folks that are a little bit more introverted, I have colleagues say to me. You're very good at pulling us into the room, but not forcefully, but in a way that we're never unheard and I'm like, that's great because you have great ideas. It's just, I get it. Sometimes I'm so loud and you're so soft. How do we make sure we're both heard? So, yeah,

Chris Hudson: 30:32

That's lovely. I think there's a lot to learn from that in, in terms of. Reading the situation, probably knowing who's going to be there and preparing yourself for how to set up some of those conditions a little bit if you're in a facilitation role, if you're in a presentation role, or even if you're listening to one yourself, like you're saying, do you, are you the first to jump in? I think a lot of people do still turn up to meetings and this is sad to say, but they do still turn up to meetings and if they haven't said anything, they. They feel like they haven't contributed in some way, so no matter what they say, they just want to say something. They want to get it, get their views out and, let it be known that they've got a voice, in the room. It's quite old school, feels a little bit masculine. It's not great.

Berlin Liew: 31:15

No, I agree. And like, sometimes the art is in doing it genuinely. Because you don't want to put the spotlight on somebody who really didn't want to say anything. It also matters how the psychological safety is around the room. Maybe they don't want to say anything because they don't feel safe to do so. So, there's a lot to it. I have a reputation with not only those I work with, but those that I meet outside of work, whether it's in professional settings or not, to not be afraid to do these things, like to speak up it has gotten me into trouble plenty of times. And by trouble, I do mean like sometimes not for what I think are valid reasons, but just reasons such as you would make your life so much easier if you were just quiet. And just, you slip away. And I think a lot of it has to do with the fact I've worked in really big organizations, so it is a great life if you're quiet and you slip away. And if that's what you want to do with your work, I can't stop those people, but if I see something and I want to speak up and it was going to. Get the attention of some folks. I'm not afraid to do that, but I'm not there to cause trouble, but I also would not want to be that person that's silenced. So in the flip side, when I think of folks who don't want to speak up, I don't want to force them. But if it's like about contributing to a team problem, like if it's a retro. I would love to hear from the whole group because you are part of that group. But if it's like a really big decision that you don't get much of a say in, I understand. But so yeah, it's just judging the meetings purpose and outcomes before you also force somebody who's been very quiet on the call to speak up, but also understanding them and gaining trust with them which I've done with some quieter teammates because they've got brilliant ideas. Because they are so observant, but sometimes they just don't know. When's the right time to speak up? And sometimes it's creating spaces like, Hey, we haven't heard from you yet. No pressure, but did you want to contribute or did you have any thoughts about X? And then that way let them come to the table as well.

Chris Hudson: 33:16

Yeah. Cause I think if you can do that, then for one, everyone feels heard, but obviously you're bringing a more diverse and more rounded conversation to the table, really than just two or three people. It's usually about 10, 20 percent of people that are talking in the room, isn't it? No, normally. Absolutely. And then Loud voices, don't stop. You've got to tell them to stop. Yes. It's that kind of situation.

Berlin Liew: 33:38

Yes. And like, to be honest, when I look back on my early careers, perhaps I was like that too. And I think a lot of it has to do with showing my value and like what you said, sometimes value is shown by being the loudest in the room. So you. Five for a seat at the table. And I think the world of work has evolved immensely, especially since the pandemic and how we see value is constantly evolving, but people are talking more publicly about it. So I think being the loudest still has some, value to it in that. I notice who we're listening to in a room that has a lot like of influence. Everyone, including myself, who's not chairing a meeting can find ways to make sure other folks are heard in the room. So I think that's still important to make a conscious effort

Chris Hudson: 34:22

to get

Berlin Liew: 34:23

those voices heard.

Chris Hudson: 34:24

For sure. Yeah. I think you're right in pointing that out that there are so many converging priorities. It feels like that if they needed to readdress the situations that exist within business, if you're thinking about mental health and vulnerability and diversity and, how people's own, needs and values at a more deeper level need to be represented in somewhere in the room. And that people want to feel heard. And I think that, technology has in a way helped some of that and in a way hasn't helped some of that, it can be harder to still create a really authentic conversation. It feels like what are some of the things or strategies that you use to create authentic conversations?

Berlin Liew: 35:01

I love this question because it's plagued me in the last few years. I did touch on it in my design outlook. speech, but I love the advancements of technology, but when it comes to connection, I'm very conflicted about it. Like right now we're talking over technology and it's fine, but I also think a lot of it has to do with where am I at, where are you at and how are we going to spend this time together? And if it's really intentional, it can be amazing. If I think about video game players. That's an amazing case study because they are committed to whatever it is on the screen along with all the other players that are committed to working with them to achieve the goal. But I think the challenge we have in the current world way of working at the moment is when you're on screen, there's nothing stopping you from grabbing your phone, but hiding it from the camera and being completely distracted. And so if I'm not committed to you right now and maybe you are not to me, how do you Really? Like generate trust, right? And so I find that's the first challenge. Sometimes people are distracted already on camera, which is like a losing cause. So my approach when it comes to this is a little bit old school, but I just want to make friends with people in the beginning. And so I know some people are a bit conflicted when it comes to making friends with colleagues at work, but my Mantra, I follow this amazing writer, her name is Shasta Nelson and she writes about making friends at work and why it's really good for you. But also a lot of it has to do with the fact that you spend so much time in your workplace, you'd hope that the people you work with are contributing positively into your world. It's easier when they're your friends, they don't need to be BFFs, right? But they, it's nicer when they're not. Assholes with you, right? And so I have the same mantra. I love coming into work and like Basically knowing if I started at a new place I'm about to meet people that are going to like positively contribute to my world and I don't really know how yet and the best stories I have of my past are people who I thought I wasn't going to be friends with, but we actually ended up becoming wonderful friends over time. And so when it comes to the online space I, at Xero it it is a global company it's across multiple countries. And I worked with folks in New Zealand quite a lot, but also folks in Denmark. I had an opportunity to work on a global team that had Europeans and APAC colleagues all involved, and that was a really great experiment about building trust online because eventually further down the line we met in real life, which I can touch on that. But for the majority of those projects, everything was through screens. And. It was funny because there are some folks I found in that space who just didn't want to chat about anything but work. They want to be transactional and get things done. And that was fine, even though you tried, you could do some structured trust building. It's a side, it was like your user manuals, right? Like, how do you like to work? How do I like to work? What peeves you off? What peeves me off, which is very structured and very insightful, but at the same time, some folks I know don't see that as valuable. I do, because then I learn how to work with you. But then the folks that do search for that non transactional moments. I try to build it in my meetings, especially in like the first few minutes, as you're getting to know people. If it, if things went my way, I would spend a bit of time in the very beginning of a project to go. Let's acknowledge that we're going to work across insane time zones. And it's probably going to take a toll on us. How do you want to communicate this? I actually believe in all of those things, but I had very little autonomy in those projects. So I spent a lot of time talking to people about, Things that you would talk about in the water cooler. And I know that's quite hard when you're in a big meeting. That is really hard. So I try really hard to decide whether it's one on one meets. But when we didn't meet up in real life, it's like all of that transcends again, right? Like it was so easy to talk to them, which again, comes back to the whole technology thing. Is it because you were in the right space with me when I chatted to them? My night was some of their mornings and vice versa. And sometimes you're not in the right hit space to go into a meeting at 8 PM, which I did a lot of those, but I still made an effort to understand like, what are they interested in? Really took an, like a deeper interest. If they were like, I have a volleyball game this weekend, take an interest when you come back next week, did you win the game that you. What interesting things happened at the game and those small little interactions over time builds up into something a lot greater. So I still rely heavily on that because I think the power of friendships at work is what helps cultivate trust, which is then what cultivates innovation. You can't skip that and just have amazing innovation all at once.

Chris Hudson: 39:49

Yeah. And did you notice in working across all those different cultures that it was received in different ways from a point of view, Australia is a bit of a melting pot in its own way, the world of work but obviously some of the other cultures that you're describing must be very different as well. So, so what were some of your learnings from that point of view?

Berlin Liew: 40:06

The cultural difference was real. Yeah. I was fortunate in that I did live in Denmark for a summer a few years ago. So I wouldn't say I know how the culture in Denmark operates, but I was a bit more cognizant of it where, their language, even though they're speaking English, might, we had said similar terms and had completely misunderstood each other. So. That happened a lot. And when you're doing it all online, those small moments of like miscom when not dealt with well is what builds against trust again unintentionally. So we had quite a lot of those situations where if someone heard about something, but didn't inform the other group. So a lot of things happened in APAC in Australia, New Zealand but the folks in Denmark would find out secondhand and, it made them feel subconsciously a little bit um, subpar and inferior to what we were doing and we didn't mean it, but they felt it. And then again, at this added layer of technology in front of us it just made things even harder. And so I definitely noticed that what got us out of it was. Finding time to have mini retros with them just to check in to be like, look, you're smart. I'm smart. I'm noticing that there's like, tension. What's going on? And I don't mean this to be like, let's butt hits, but like, I would love to. I really wish I was next to you, and I can't, right? So, how do we make this work? And through those conversations, I learned from there, and they were really tired waking up at 5 a. m. in the morning. They could do it, and they're dedicated to the cause, work, but, they were really tired. And I said, great, can I tell you, I have not had a night out. In about six weeks, like I am glued to my desk till nine at night and I take days in lieu, but I'm so tired by those days that I don't do anything with my life. And so we both understood I guess through a case of trying to be vulnerable with one another and through a screen, right? That we were feeling quite similar to one another, even though we didn't have the right words to use it in a professional setting. So. Yeah, not to say that we got it completely right all the time, but those were the bits that broke down the transactional, we need to get the work done, which we were very good at doing while suppressing all the challenges that affected us mentally, emotionally, or spiritually as well.

Chris Hudson: 42:31

Yeah, I think so. You're building a stronger foundation for that in a way through that connection. And it feels like there's only so many repeated faster. Transactional conversations that you can do without, you're going to hit a blocker at some point. Yeah. Even if Denmark is meant to be the happiest country in the world. I don't know if you've read that book, The Year of Living Danishly.

Berlin Liew: 42:52

That and, or Finland, apparently now Finland's the happiest. Oh, it's Finland

Chris Hudson: 42:56

now. Okay. Yeah. Brilliant. Been there too. But yeah, it's you've got to rely on a lot of goodwill to get past some of those situations. If you've got no kind of relational I want to call it like a bedrock or like some kind of connection point with a lot of people, then you've got nothing, you know, you're running on empty basically. Yeah. You've got no shared goal.

Berlin Liew: 43:15

Yes. But also I think there is some truth in that when you are really open with the people you work with and like have a deep level of trust, which I mean, one way I see it is by being really good friends. Cause really good friends, I would think have good trust with one another. But when you have good trust with someone. A, you're not afraid to not only speak your mind, but you're also not afraid to say when something's wrong, like, you would hope so again, coming back to ruinous empathy, you could have a really great friendship with someone, but never be brave to tell them maybe the truth. When you think about the world we work in with design or even tech that relies so heavily on being innovative or creative or being curious, I think if we don't have that level of connection and trust. How are we expected to churn out this innovation? We already sit sedentary in front of our desks working with technology in front of us. Everything is digitized, right? So we're very sedentary. We're not even moving our arms much anymore, right? How do you then expect us? To come up with really cool, innovative ideas. We've got a whole bunch of frameworks and processes to follow, which, thanks to the likes of all the design schools out there, but it's a big key enabler are the people that you have around you and their perspectives or their curiosities or questions. There needs to be a level of trust first. And so I, it boggles my brain whenever I do go into a new project and there isn't the same. Level of interest in dedicating some time to get to know the team, especially if the team is globally dispersed. Because then you are going to deal with things like time zones and working hours. And what is our approach to this? What is your perspective, right? So when they think that all you'll figure all of that out organically. Just like change management, it boggles my brain because I don't think humans are that magical. I think we'd like to think we are very magical in that way, but we're really not. So a lot of it has to be quite intentional. So I have gone to plenty of projects where it is very transactionally focused. And we're very good at producing the outputs. Would I say we would, we had gotten the best outcomes? Probably not, because maybe we were afraid to speak our truths. We wanted to just get the job done. So yeah I hope that was a phase of maybe coming out of the pandemic. There was a lot of anxiety and a lot of concerns coming out of that period of time. But I hope it just gets better because I think it is It's possible to still do amazing work purely through computers and technology, but your attitude, your team's attitude and the commitment they have to each other have to be very clear and aligned and can't just be magically hoped to be organic amongst all of you.

Chris Hudson: 46:10

Yeah, that alignment is a bit of a process sometimes. It's not as if it just organically clicks into place like a jigsaw, right? You've got to, you've got to sometimes work at that and yeah, through this conversation already tonight, which has been great. It's you're thinking back to like different parts of the story where, you're basically looking for either similarity or commonality or signs of that not being there. So if you're walking into a meeting online or virtual and people don't want to be spending the time to get to know you. Then that's a signal of trust or distrust already, right? And then you can think about how you're going to handle that. And it's like looking for those signs of whether there is, whether there's a fit or whether there isn't a fit. Can you think about other, any other ways of, how you would, if you notice there was a, basically a gap, like how you would bring some of those, some of those people together to find, a common ground or a shared purpose.

Berlin Liew: 47:02

Yeah, of course. And sometimes it depends how we got brought in together, right? Like some. Like some projects, I got to know these people before we got pulled in together. That makes a very big difference. And some projects you're completely brand new and you're chucked into a room. I've been in that situation when we had a round of redundancies and there was a massive reshuffle of everybody's teams and. You just got told this is your new team. And so that was not only something to get used to from the change management of the entire company, changing its structure, but getting to meet people that you've not met before. So that was also really hard. A lot of it has to do with. Understanding first tell me about your life, like, like, something is, what some people would think is irrelevant, I think is very relevant. What's your life like? What's your family life like? Tell me about, if you have a family, tell me about them. It gives me an idea, like, are you the kind of person that Wants to come into the office. Doesn't want to come to the office. Why, what are your motivations? What's holding you back? And just understanding a little bit more holistically than just you are my product manager and all the questions I'll ask you is about product management and I am your designer. So everything I'll tell you is about my design skills and services, but understanding them holistically first. We'll give you a better idea of then how to go about how you want to build trust with this person. So, I've had folks that I've worked with that, not in design. So the best ones often the best stories I can think of are the ones that are not really in my sphere, whether it's product marketing, whether it's product management or even engineering, or compliance analysts. I've spoken to lots as well, just getting to know them as a person and taking a genuine interest in their lives. Bit by bit over time is what then when you talk about your services and you have to engage with them for work Makes it a little bit easier. I think sometimes we forget to do that we can get a little bit warped it with our roles and their roles and our silos, but yeah, like I've spoken to folks that for different reasons couldn't come into the office because of their caring duties and so I would find ways to work around that. Sometimes it would be such that where they could only do evening meetings. And so I would adjust my times cause we had flexible working at where I worked. So I could adjust my times from certain days to catch them, but take time back elsewhere. But that little sacrifice for me, which, and I think some folks would say I have very strict boundaries of my hours, which is fine, but those little, like I would say compromises to me, it doesn't really feel like a compromise, but a compromise nonetheless. Goes a long way with whoever it is that you're trying to connect with. That's one thing I've noticed. And another thing is if they're trying to put forward an idea and if you aren't sure about it, sometimes it's quite easy to be like, nah, I'm going to shut it down or I have a better way of doing this. Or if they put together, say a PowerPoint presentation and you look at it and you're like, I could make this look a lot better. And it's going to represent us in those situations. Instead of reacting on that natural instinct, it's actually quite powerful to go, let's roll with it. Like I, I naturally wouldn't say, yes, I would want to fix up your fonts and I want to fix up this stuff. If it's an accessibility thing, I would, I'd be like, Hey, this color is really hard to look at. So, you will get a better response from your audience if it was actually readable, that's different. But if it's about subjective. Approaches let them do it because that's how you start building trust again. It's like, I'm letting you run the show. And then, it's not about me jumping in and shutting you down when you're trying to put yourself forward. So sometimes the connection and trust can be built, not purely from just talking about what a coolest stuff, but it's also when they are putting forward ideas, how to respond to that. And being aware of your responses, because naturally sometimes I respond with, I could jump in and help you and make this better, or also go, I love this, let's roll with what you've got. And then when the time is right, go, hey, I've got some tips as well, XYZ.

Chris Hudson: 51:03

Yeah. Letting them roll with it and then almost the feedback will come at a later point. You don't have to, you don't have to hit it out of the park with one hit, right? You can basically treat it as a bit of a process and let people feel empowered in that moment to take their work forward and own it. And yeah. Coming back to feedback, that piece of feedback, you take it on, you can improve it, and you've shared that experience together. So that's really good. And as you were talking, I was thinking about what we were talking about at the beginning of the conversation, with the private investigator kind of analogy, because, I was thinking about different scenes, right? So this is like really random.

Berlin Liew: 51:38

I love it.

Chris Hudson: 51:39

But I'm thinking like, the, you often see the private investigator or that kind of detective character taking on different roles, right? So they're either in very direct, conversations and asking questions because they want to get to an outcome or they're just observing in the background. So those are two sort of situations. And there's another one where. There's usually happens in maybe some of the more traditional TV shows, but basically there's a gathering at the end and all of the characters that you've learned so much about, you've had to listen to and you've observed are all in one place. And then, something's revealed and there's a bit of a heated debate and like the murderers found out. So anyway, in terms of that, and then the world of work, it feels like some of the parallels still sit there, like in terms of being on the front foot to, to ask questions and be very, very direct about where you want to take things, sometimes taking a back seat and just observing a little bit. Watching the events unfold, that you can learn a lot from that. You can learn a lot from how people respond to other people, without you getting involved as well. So, I was just drawing that together. I don't know if it makes sense. No, I love it.

Berlin Liew: 52:42

And I also think a lot of my answers are influenced by the fact that I worked in fairly large places where the dynamics of the environment around you really matters because unlike a smaller place your impact, I would say would be a little bit different. It doesn't mean it's diminished It just means the way you look at value and impact has to be taking the environment into consideration So whenever I think about large organizations. The impact you have even with the very direct team you're in even if it's just three people. That alone can have ripple effects later on

Chris Hudson: 53:18

and

Berlin Liew: 53:19

Which is why not only am I just generally interested to get to know the people I work with but also Because they're very talented people, but also they could have interests that go beyond, they're a human being they're more than their job. So, I'm always curious about who I will cross paths with because of the stories they'll tell and et cetera, but also when you have had a positive impact on them, whether it's through the trust or the connection or the skill sharing, whatever it is where that then goes is quite powerful. So I had a. who I would say a product owner becoming a product manager. So getting away from delivery focused work and being a little bit closer to more discovery oriented, strategic pieces of work. And they said to me, look, I've worked with designers before, but very implementation oriented. I've never really worked in discovery spaces and I'm new to it. I'm probably going to be rubbish at some things, but I just want to get better at it. But I just want to let you know, because we're going to be working on this project together. And I was like, amazing. I love it. Are you someone who's obsessed with boundaries and that, this is a design thing. I won't touch you won't touch it. And if it's a product thing, I won't touch it. And they were like, no, I need to learn. So let's work together on it. So I, I. Hail it my approach because of that. And one of the key things we did throughout this entire project was running a lot of research and data gathering. So that was a big eyeopening experience for them. And even though it was only one Product Manager, I influenced in this world, in this project, once we stopped working together we still keep in touch. So they still write to me about like ideas from the customer's perspective or like, when they've got ideas and what the customer outcome is, how does this impact the customer having ideas of how to run the research? They're not doing it. They're just saying, I see an opportunity to do research. Am I crazy? Can you, can we have a chat about this to see whether this will work? This is sound. How can I make this better? How can I pitch this? I'm just amazed. I'm not in the room anymore. Like this person is off on their own advocating for research and then they're going off to their new engineers to tell them, like, how do I get you involved to just watch to come up with ideas for maybe like engineering spikes of ideas that you're hearing in this in the room with the customer. If you don't need to do anything with it, I just need your brains to like spark some ideas. And they're doing it all without me. But it was something that. I was just sharing because they wanted to know and you give a bit of yourself. So it has nothing to do with me. My name is not on any of these things, but the impact goes way beyond me beyond that. So I often like to tell folks, especially younger junior folks that come into corporates. To reshift what success is to you, what impact is to you. And I went through this journey. I went into a corporate thinking success is when I ship something. And everyone was like, Ooh, you might be here a really long time.

Chris Hudson: 56:09

It's one of Canva's design principles, I think.

Berlin Liew: 56:11

Yeah.

Chris Hudson: 56:13

It's not design unless it's shipped.

Berlin Liew: 56:15

Oh, exactly. And like, I understand. I really do. But also corporates, I have understood corporates as well. And so, It's a different level of empathy. It's like, do I wish to work like this? No, but I am very cognizant that there are some very different structures around me. What is value? What is impact? How do you contribute to it when you're, for lack of a better word, when you're just a cognitive machine, right? You don't want to be treated as a cognitive machine. You want to be intentional and meaningful with your time. But you're cognizant of all the constraints around you. So that was a big learning curve for me. And now I see things a little bit differently if I go back into a world of corporate.

Chris Hudson: 56:54

Yeah, there's a lot of what you're saying there. Just in terms of, almost that value exchange a little bit, when people are in that similar stage of learning or in a situation which is, you know, shared, shared problem, shared problem to solve. You're both having to jump in, figure it out, you learn from each other, you take something forward, but The next time it happens, take something forward from what you've learned from that previous experience and from somebody else's skill set. So I'm thinking in my head about, the, a lot of people think about work as being, what you get from it, what use the, you're basically an employee. You want to get as much as you can from that job to meet your own career aspirations and everything else. But actually from what you're saying is that it's also about how much you put back in, you get more back if you put more out. Because I think you have to be quite giving within the world of work sometimes.

Berlin Liew: 57:42

It I agree. And like, I'm in an interesting phase right now where I'm reading a lot about the way we look at work. I think there's a lot of research out there that It's really interesting and I'm reading a book at the moment called Work Backwards. It's by Tim Duggan. But he did touch on this where we have different perspectives of work, whether we see it as a job. So we do this thing to make money and to pay our bills and that's it, or whether it's a career. So there's like some aspect of growth and progression involved or it's a calling. So it's something. It's Leading to something bigger than yourself. And it doesn't really matter if work right now falls in either of those three buckets where it lands. It doesn't really matter because it's just understanding what it is to you in this moment in time. And over time it will shift and maybe based on different phases of your life, it will shift again.

Chris Hudson: 58:29

And just

Berlin Liew: 58:30

being cognizant that it's not fixed. That, you just because work is a career to you may not mean it's right. A career to you forever, just because work is a job to you right now. It doesn't mean it's that forever. Just being cognizant of that already helps. And for me for a really long time, career work was a career for me. And so I gave it a lot, not because I felt like I needed to, I was also really interested in growing a lot. And a lesson I learned last year was. Not all energy inputs have to be equal because I'm someone who likes to think that their work is I pursue quality relentlessly for better or for worse and sometimes I find just by doing that And doesn't always equate to the best outcomes, just like, if you do something once and you realize you've got great returns from it, but if you do it like 10, 000 times and realize it's not giving you good returns you could be smarter about your energy, right? So I, that's my new personal challenge that I'm learning to overcome is recognizing when's a really good time to go. Here's my all in because I understand what I'm getting out of it. And maybe when should I go at 80%? Not to say the thing deserves less of me, but the thing itself doesn't warn the bells and whistles. It's actually better if I remove unnecessary steps because the outcome is achieved, I've done my thing and I didn't need to go above and beyond to diminishing returns, right? I think that's a really hard thing to do. Thing to achieve especially if you're someone who gives a lot to the world of work.

Chris Hudson: 1:00:06

Yeah, I think so it's like any you know I guess it's like relationships and a lot of things in life where You can over invest and if you do that, then you know It brings with it a certain sense of satisfaction if it pays off but if it doesn't pay off then you feel you know, you feel let down by that in some way or another because You're exhausted and you're walking away with this It's probably less than you walked in with, it's in some cases anyway, but we don't want to end on a downer, so let's bring it back. So one of the questions that I often ask guests on the show, and I'd love to hear it. We've talked about so much, it's been such an enlightening chat and, in terms of superpowers. Appreciate it. Have you got, have you thought about what yours is and how would you describe that?

Berlin Liew: 1:00:44

I have. And it's funny because I never thought it was a superpower until I did a strengths test and then was told very professionally what it is called in professional terms. I call it making friends. We've already touched on it, but I never realized it was a superpower. I just like it. I like meeting people. So my best stories of making friendships are on. public transport, so I've made friends on the train, I've made friends on the trams friends that I visit in other countries, purely for meeting them on the train here in Melbourne the people that, I've been told this is a really tough client, you're not going to like them, everyone hates them, make friends with those people I quite enjoy it because a lot of the times humans are really fascinating, unless you're inherently an evil person, which very few people are in my life there's a really good story behind the human being, so I'm always interested in knowing what is it that they come to the table with, what's their perspective and a lot of it has comes down to like a genuine openness and curiosity for wanting to hear that story and perspective. And the reason why I say I wasn't sure it was a superpower was because I Did a Gallup Clifton strengths test and did that quiz that then tells you what your top five strengths are. And one of mine that appears, I've done the test three times cause I had three different companies and they all did it. So I had it three times. But this one skill, this one strength is in my top list of strengths, which is winning others over. They call it WU, so W O, but really when you read what WU people do not just winning others over through influencing, but a lot of it's about breaking the ice, getting to understand their motivations, getting to understand what troubles them, getting to understand how to connect with them, right? And so when I read that, I was like, it's just making friends. Like, I don't know why it's so hard. But I think, especially now with technology taking over so much of our lives and loneliness becoming an epidemic it's really hard to make friends. So I didn't realize that was actually a superpower, but it comes down to just being curious and open and believing in the good of people and their stories.

Chris Hudson: 1:02:54

Yeah. Wow. There's, it's just amazing. I mean, There are so many strengths tests and different tests that you can do, obviously, but to have such a profound effect and for it to feel like it's a, really a natural fit, in the way that it was described for you, it was incredibly empowering as well. Going back to, we've talked a lot about connections and, some of the things, meeting strangers on the train. At Design Outlook, we're talking about this right at the start, but you're presenting at Design Outlook, and you come onto stage, and what's going through your head, when you're having to connect with that, you know, hundreds of people at once, who you don't know, can you still make friends with those people? How do you do that?

Berlin Liew: 1:03:31

That is hard, because I think a lot of the times when the light's shining on you. It's quite dark. You can't really see the audience, which is really hard because how do you make eye contact, right? But a lot of the times I think about when I'm on stage to think about like having this conversation with somebody right in front of me. So when I normally practice, if I'm presenting I do it in front of somebody else so that I understand the feeling of what it's like to look at someone. So when I am, when I was on stage at Design Outlook I did look at a few folks in the audience and it was fine to do a few eye contacts here and there, but then I did catch a few, like, a few folks that are my friends in the crowd and I'm like, Oh, cool. That's right. I know who you are. But it's also just tuning out of the fact. I think a lot of people, when they think, Oh, you presented on stage, it must be so frightening putting yourself out there in front of all these people. Personally, for me, I don't view it like that. So I think that's why it doesn't really scare me. I think a lot of people are scared of stage, like they have stage fright. I don't have stage fright, which is a bit of a strength and also a weakness. I'm like almost. Too casual with it, which is like the vibe I took with me into Design Outlook. But I think it's because whenever I am on stage, I think about presenting just to one person and pretending like there's just one person in front of me. Sometimes it really helps if it's just someone who matters a lot to me, who's maybe not there. So if I'm thinking about friends who are not in Australia and presenting it to them. That's one strategy that I have. I wouldn't say it's one I would tell everyone to follow. But that reduces that nervousness that comes with like the idea that there are many people watching your every move to make a mistake. I don't think about that.

Chris Hudson: 1:05:12

Yeah. Good advice. Good advice. And actually that gives you that connection point, doesn't it? If you're thinking about one person, you can probably, deliver it in a way you think they might relate to in some way or another.

Berlin Liew: 1:05:21

You're less distracted from trying to appease 500 people in the room because that is really difficult.

Chris Hudson: 1:05:27

Yeah, no definitely. All right. I think we're right there. I mean, This was such a, such a cool chat. And um, I've got to ask one more question, which is probably around your next move, because we're just talking about it's such a, such a shame that you're going to be leaving Melbourne and, wish we could have had more chats like this in the last few years. But what's going to be next for you? Is it job, career, calling? What are you feeling?

Berlin Liew: 1:05:48

I don't know. Actually, that's the excitement. So one of the things I've put on the bench for the last 12 years is a move overseas. Where to? TBC. I don't know. I just want to go out of Australia to get some more experience out of APAC. So I've got my eyes on Europe and the Middle East. Specifically, I've got my eyes on the Netherlands or anywhere in the UAE, so maybe Dubai or Abu Dhabi. Both regions are very different from one another but extremely different from APAC. So that's why they appeal to me. They also speak languages other than English, which I did a degree in linguistics, so I love languages. I just want to be immersed in another environment where I hear a language, a different language spoken around me. So it's either Dutch or Arabic, I'll find out what I'll learn next. But before all of that even happens I'm pursuing another goal that I have put on the bench for about 12 years, the exact amount of time which is to travel around Latin America. So I did a diploma in Spanish at university along with my linguistics degree and told myself I would go to Latin America and dance and eat and travel and see things, but the world of work beckoned and I fell into it and I loved it and stayed in it for so long that next thing you know, 12 years have come by and I had not gone to Latin America. So I'm finally pursuing it. Better late than never and then after that I hope to find myself in either the Netherlands or the UAE and hopefully still doing design Who knows right and I actually have no idea what it will be. So I'm very excited to see where I land

Chris Hudson: 1:07:31

But yeah, it's really exciting. You know somebody who's obviously come over from the other side of the world as well You know, it's an incredibly daunting but huge adventure ahead of you. And, we wish you every success with it. Hopefully, somebody out there is going to be lucky to have you, popping up in the world of work somewhere, Netherlands, UAE, Finland, wherever you end up going.

Berlin Liew: 1:07:52

Yeah, no, fingers crossed though, but thank you so much.

Chris Hudson: 1:07:54

No, thanks so much and really appreciate you coming on to the show in such a short time before you're about to head off and things are packing up and you're in chaos and, you found time to kindly come and talk to us. So really appreciate it. Thanks so much, Berlin.

Berlin Liew: 1:08:06

Oh, thanks so much for having me. It was really fun.