The Company Road Podcast
In this podcast we’ll be exploring what it takes to change a company. Taking the big steps, or the smaller steps in between.
This one’s for the intrapreneurs. You’ll be getting to know some big, brave and darn right outrageous personalities, luminaries, pioneers of business and hearing what they’ve done to fix the thorniest of problems within organisations.
The Company Road Podcast
E65 Silo Breakers & Synergy Makers: Unleash Change within your Organisation
“Listening upfront is the most critical thing. You need to listen to the people that you're engaging with to be able to understand where they're coming from, what's the emotion behind the question or the challenge that they have in front of them and then ultimately thinking about it too and asking those questions around, what is the outcome that they're after? Because often when the challenge is in front of you, the outcome that they're trying to achieve, the two don't align.” - Heath Gledhill
Sue Stewart and Heath Gledhill are leaders with over two decades of experience in organisational transformation. They bring a unique approach that integrates communication, design, and trust-building to drive impactful changes.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
- The importance of building trust and open communication for change
- Using design thinking to address complex organisational challenges
- How to foster a culture of listening and empathy in project settings
- The role of strategic questioning in achieving impactful outcomes
- How to overcome constraints and adapt to evolving client needs
Key links
- Heath Gledhill LinkedIn
- Sue Stewart LinkedIn
- Aurecon Design Academy at RMIT University
- Myers Briggs Personality Profiling
- E50 – Rachel Zhang and David Bradford
About our guest
Sue Stewart is a seasoned strategist and change management expert with extensive global experience in design, professional services and government sectors. Over her career, she has successfully led transformative projects across America, Europe, the Middle East and Asia Pacific, specialising in strategy development, business growth, cultural transformation and market expansion.
Sue is known as an out-of-the-box thinker with the ability to see and leverage connections across an ecosystem. With advanced expertise in communication, design thinking and leadership, she has presented and lectured on a range of topics including strategy, design, strategic communications, change management and organisational culture. Sue holds a Master of Arts in Communications, Honours in research and is accredited in Prosci and MBTI, positioning her as a trusted coach and leader in guiding organisations through sustained continuous improvement and innovation.
Heath Gledhill, is a passionate integrated strategist committed to unlocking hidden value, overcoming financial and operational challenges, and driving evocative yet practical solutions, Heath draws on his qualifications in both design, management and business, to drive successful teams, businesses and project solutions.
With over 20 years of professional experience, his transformational leadership to complex urban infrastructure projects and programs makes him widely sort after globally. A Committed advocate to cross industry borders, he is an active voice, driving a greater awareness of the need for better planning and integration of disciplines from the outset. A Fellow, Board Director and past Chapter President + Executive member of the Australian Institute of Landscape Architects, he brings experience from both the public and private
For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at https://companyroad.co/podcast/
Hello and welcome back to the company road podcast. And this is the show for intrapreneurs who are committed to driving change and transformation in organizations in some way. And this is the second of these shows where we're going to feature a podcast pairing within one organization. And if you remember, we had David and Rachel from Telstra discuss their approaches to building high performance team culture a few episodes back on episode 50 and check that one out. If you want to hear about ways to build trust authenticity into your teams. But today I want to introduce, two very special guests. I'm thrilled to announce two remarkable individuals who are here to share their insights on innovation, leadership, and organizational transformation. First we have Sue Stewart, who's a dynamic leader dedicated to challenging boundaries and enabling organizations through exceptional innovation and communication strategies. Sue you've got a background that spans more than two decades and your expertise has empowered organizations to take significant leaps in their digital and knowledge management environments. You hold a master's of arts and communications and you're certified in Myers Briggs personality profiling, and you specialize in strategy development, change management, and communications planning. Your work in consulting client facing roles has transformed a number of organizational cultures and it's enhanced leadership communication. And you believe in the power of connecting and collaborating and listening across all levels of an organization to execute those successful strategies. So Sue, welcome to the show.
Sue Stewart:Thanks, Chris. Quite a, quite an intro there.
Chris Hudson:We'll go on to Heath. So joining Sue, we've got Heath Gledhill. years of experience in the design industry. and you're a passionate integrated strategist and you have a keen ability to unlock hidden value and overcome challenges and you specialize in driving evocative yet practical solutions within community centered design. You're a transformational leader in urban infrastructure projects mainly, and your work spans across Australia, the Middle East, China, Indonesia and New Zealand, and your expertise bridges engineering design, community needs. And ensuring that all proposals are visually impactful and setting conscious in some way. And your work has garnered global respect and you continue to be a pivotal voice within professional organizations and you drive collaboration and success across both public and private sectors. So Heath, a very warm welcome to you as well. Brilliant. So together, I want to open up this conversation. So Sue and Heath, together, you bring a wealth of experience and one body of experience that really promises to inspire and educate the listeners on the complexities and the success of driving change in one way or another. So I want to maybe dive into this conversation and uncover actionable strategies that you've both been deploying in one way or another over your, careers. These things can be recent or they can be from the past, but we'll just start with a really open question. So maybe you can both think of a moment in your career where you thought you've made a big difference to your team and your organization in some way, and then we can get into the kind of nitty gritty after that. Sue, do you want to start us off?
Sue Stewart:Wow. Okay. Big question. We're starting big. Yeah. I can think of a few examples, but from where we're talking to you today, I'm we're actually at RMIT university. And Aurecon is lucky enough to partner with RMIT to deliver what we call the Aurecon Design Academy. It's a three year program for our technical professionals ranging from all parts of advisory and engineering. And they work on this program for three years and really driving that kind of design mindset to deliver impactful outcomes for our clients. And I suppose a big change for me, I took on this role about three and a half years ago. It was in the midst of COVID and how kind of the Design Academy had gotten to a point where it had become quite a collaborative thing that suddenly everything was online. There was a question around, what is Eminence and how does this help drive business? So I suppose over that three and a half years has been quite a shift in how we've really transformed it. It's meant that our partnership with RMIT now is actually a certificate in design management. It's something that previously we weren't getting many people interested. Now we have far too many people trying to join the program and it has really transformed how we look at eminence at an individual level, but also at a team level at Aurecon, what does it mean to actually Aurecon, but most importantly, how can we look to our clients around what eminence means to them, which means then we design the outcomes for that. So it's really looking at. Changing a cultural aspect, what started as a learning aspect, but turning it into a bit of a groundswell cultural movement and really starting to change how we approach our work with our clients.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, that's very cool. Thanks. And yeah, eminence, for those that don't know it as a term that well, how would you sum it up?
Sue Stewart:Well, it's interesting when I first took on this role, I was like, what is eminence? And everyone was like, we're not really sure either. So that was goal number one. And the best way to do that is I asked everyone, I asked the leadership, what does it mean? I asked them to get into the DeLorean and go in five years in time. And the eminence strategy was implemented. What was it looking like? How was it being measured? What were our clients saying about that? And out of that became the sentence of the definition, which is being renowned and sought after for our technical excellence and ability to make an impact. And when we say renowned and sought after, that's by our clients in the market.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, great. It sounds like you've got both the organizational thinking, as well as the organizational kind of momentum that sits behind it. If you're rolling it out and you've got things in place there, which is great. So thanks for showing that example and Heath, do you want to give us a. Moment in your career where you think you've made a difference to the organization or an organization.
Heath Gledhill:Sure. I mean, I think I might just extend on where Sue's launched from there. So look at the role I started with Aurecon about six years ago, and it was just my little lone self coming out of the design industry, heading into an engineering firm, which was puzzling, not only for myself, but possibly to a number of my colleagues as well within the industry. But soon after being able to work alongside people like Sue in really understanding and challenging the idea of design, and how do we do that? take people from out of a design background and a profession and start to think about the questions that we need to be asking, the times that we need to be asking those and equally challenging, challenging both our people internally and externally. So our clients as well around really driving into where the problem is, understanding the problem, asking questions around that to make sure that we actually have the right project that's coming out the back end. So that's been my focus and journey at Aurecon, building up a team of professionals within the business, using the tools and working with people like Sue to be able to really start to shift the way we think about the projects that we're doing, the outcomes that we're getting on the ground, the kind of legacy that they're leaving behind. So I think the way that we work through that, it varies. There's no rule book, there's not a one size fits all, and I think that part of the process that we work through is really about bringing people on the journey. We've got a really diverse business here, so the ability to be able to connect and bring a wide variety of people along that journey has been challenging. But really critical, in the way that we've been able to succeed. And we have some really great project outcomes, but some even better client relationships remain because of the way that we go about doing things. So I think that's probably a good one where the two of us are sitting down to talk with you today. It's a good piece that both of us kind of work together on and really drives the business off.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, thanks Heath. I love that point you make around asking the difficult questions and it sounds like Sue, you did that just straight off the bat when you're talking about evidence. You ask people what they're responding to in that sense and Heath, obviously, from your point of view, what have you found work well in asking those difficult questions? Do you feel like there's a method for doing it well or less well?
Heath Gledhill:Short answer is I don't think there's an exact science to it, but the fundamental piece that I do and I remind everyone in my team and then equally others that we're working with is don't go in with any preconceived ideas. Listening up front is the most critical thing. You need to listen to the people that you're engaging with to be able to understand where they're coming from. What's the emotion behind the question or the challenge that they have in front of them? And then ultimately thinking about too and asking those questions. Remember, what is the outcome that they're after? Because often when the challenge is in front of you, the outcome that they're trying to achieve, the two don't align but you only understand that by listening. Taking a moment, Almost cycling back a little bit without diving straight into say, you've told us this, we've got a solution for you. I often joke with our engineering friends that when I say, great, we need to build a bridge and I joke and say, have you gone to the manual and said, we're going to have bridge number 55 and we're going to have edge parapet detail number 23 on it. We're going to whack them together, job done, off we go, which that's, we know that that's not the case, but it's a good way to challenge, particularly our engineering folk who are constrained through the, in the way that they think they need to be. And often we need to get them to think outside of that.
Sue Stewart:Exactly. I think as well, the questions are really important in building trust and relationship with the people that you're dealing with. And I think for me, with communications background, I always try and, before I jump at all these questions at some poor person that I'm asking, I'll brief them a bit beforehand why I want to meet with them, why I want to ask these questions, and then obviously do a lot of listening. But then have to think about, well, then what's the It's the gift back. You've given me your time. You've given me your thoughts. How can I actually demonstrate that I've listened and what do you get out of that? So even with that kind of questioning that I did when I first took on this role, I actually then pulled all of the results together and shared all of that back with everyone in a different format and showed them. And then when I came out with the strategy, And this kind of statement of eminence, it was very clear that they were all part of that process. And I had listened to what they'd told me. It informed the strategy and acknowledged the work that they contributed to that particular process. And I think that applies to anything that you're doing, whether it's client, whether you're bringing them in and we're working with clients in different discovery sessions with them and giving them that capture back of what we heard. And this is why it's important what we're doing. So keeping them, like you said, about the journey, but communication being critical to building a relationship and most importantly,
Chris Hudson:Yeah. That's really useful. I think that, yeah, the constraints are often there, but I think Heath it sounds like your approach is somewhat on the nose, but it's also, there's some humor involved in obviously quoting the book back at people to say, is this what we're working with? And obviously, Sue, you've got a very kind of skilled, almost co design aspect to the way in which you've been approaching it, where people feel like they're involved in the solution because they've been on a process or on a journey in some sort of way. Do you feel like there are preparations that you can make? going into those discussions that would set you up for success in some way?
Sue Stewart:I always try and put myself in the other person's shoes. And I hate filling out forms and I hate giving information where that entity would already have that information about me. So I do try and make things as lean and as. Simple as possible because I actually want to look at well, what is the action if I wanted Heath to do something? I'd be okay. Well, what's the action that I need to get out of Heath? What are the benefits for Heath and then what are the concerns that he might present at me? So that's what my ABCs I use them from a comms perspective. So then I design that session with him with that in mind.
Now
Sue Stewart:that's slower And when you're at that front end of different initiatives and projects, it can be frustrating for leaders to be saying, are you still talking to people? It's like, yes, I am. But. Time spent at that front end makes such a difference when you get into delivery and the outcomes and you suddenly end up with all of these people supporting and following you and helping you. But knowing that you don't need to go back and fix things because you actually have taken the people on the journey at the beginning and understood all those benefits and concerns and the pain points for them.
Heath Gledhill:Think it's fair to say too that you can do that at any stage to a project. A lot of the projects we're working on particularly with our clients, their needs or the goalposts softened shift. Partway through, none of the work that we do is a linear process, realistically. And we need to be able to be quite agile in the way that we're thinking and adapting. And that could be hour to hour, whether, or sometimes week to week depending on the projects. I think employing all of those pieces is. Critical at any point along the way, and it needs the blunt teeth approach to it, perhaps, to be able to
really, yeah, and then see, so
Heath Gledhill:The duo as it would be helps to navigate some of these things.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, good. And do you assemble people in your teams that can also complement that as a situation? I mean, are there kind of considerations for who's playing the good cop or the bad cop or anything like that in these environments, do you think?
Heath Gledhill:Look, yes, is probably the short answer. I think when some of the roles that I have operated on most recently with some of our state government clients where the purpose of my role is to be the person who is going to go in and challenge, but the client knows that and the client is comfortable with the fact that I am driving them towards an outcome that they will be comfortable with and can stand behind with a level of confidence, but also knowing that they could report that up the line. If I don't ask them the hard questions along the way, then we're not preparing them to be able to deliver what they need to deliver and that's that piece about the trust and the client relationship and understanding, which Sue was talking about earlier, is some of the critical ingredients we have to have in the way that we operate.
Sue Stewart:And not being afraid to ask questions, even though they might make people feel uncomfortable. That's your role is asking those questions.
Heath Gledhill:Yeah. And I think particularly in the environment that we work in, I will ask my engineering colleagues some uncomfortable questions, but it is often pushing them towards a better outcome. I shouldn't say often. It always is. That's the aim. Sometimes we don't get there, but I think it's a critical part of the diversity that we offer to the business.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Should we talk a bit about those constraints a little bit? Because it feels like. If that's where the tension lies and you come up against that tension, you're obviously asking questions of it in a number of cases and maybe every time. That starts and opens up the port at which you can start to expand and explore other areas and other ideas potentially. So. But from what I'm hearing anyway, he's just saying that is fundamental to getting and reaching a better outcome, getting to that.
Heath Gledhill:Yeah. I think the way that constraints for me, and I think perhaps Sue in the way that we both interact, but I'll let you talk to that as well. But constraints for me, I think about them as a challenge that we need to overcome. A constraint for me is not necessarily constraint. Sure. Every project might have some rules or some boundaries around it. You do need to test those though, but then. Yeah. Constraints, particularly in the world that we work in, in a lot of ways, I feel like that can be often preconceived, but we can't do that because And it will be based on something that someone may have done in a previous project or has experienced in the past. I'm a huge believer in the way that we operate to know that we need to actually continuously challenge ourselves. Are those constraints, real constraints? Can we overcome them? Could we think about this differently? Who else do we need to get into the conversation to offer a different perspective or bring a different narrative to us that might change the outcome that we're after? So again, to me, I'm probably listening to myself there. I'm continuously asking those questions. Slightly annoying questions to drive towards an outcome that we can all stand behind and say we've given that our best shot. That is a solid outcome rather than just accepting that the constraints of what you need to work with up front.
Sue Stewart:It's a good point from a cultural perspective because particularly working both in a business and with clients, culture plays such an important element of constraint and it's sometimes it's really difficult to understand what's culture and what's just someone's life. But I think spending the time to understand a culture and in, in previous roles where I worked for a design firm, I was doing workplace design. I was coming in with the lens of what is the culture of this organization? What's this strategy? How do they communicate with each other? And we'd have designers coming in thinking about the workplace fit out. And I'd be like, you're designing a fit out for a totally different organization. You need to think about how do the two marry together. So culture can be, have an impact on physicality in terms of a workplace. But it is best understood at a communication level. And that's where, I suppose my background of knowing a culture and understanding that and working with it. I hear a lot of stories about we need to change the culture or this organization doesn't have a culture. Every organization has a culture. It may not be a positive culture, but how can you actually work within the constraints? And if you can identify it and give it a persona of how you need to work with it. Rather than trying to change it, I find is a better path. And you, and along the way you build that coalition to actually help you through that process.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Okay. So working with culture in a more human way, obviously, you're calling it and naming it something and giving it persona. Absolutely.
Sue Stewart:What would an example of one of
Chris Hudson:those be?
Sue Stewart:In terms of naming the culture? Whatever the persona
Chris Hudson:is, of course, yeah, is it?
Sue Stewart:When my research for my master's, I actually did it on studies of culture and looked at metaphors in the workplace and what does that actually look like. And it was fascinating, I did it on a firm and but I was asking them about the culture then how does it feel and what does it do? And at the end I said, well, if the culture was an animal, what animal is this? And it was a fascinating insight to where they were thinking, but what was phenomenal, it was all jaguars and cougars and these like really fast animals that then just ate their, you know, were targeting and eating their prey. And it was such a high performing client focus, but they loved the chase. They love the chase of a challenge and so even understanding from that perspective, so if you understand that then now how do I need to communicate with this group because of the way that they see that? And it was really interesting when I presented it back to the board, they all looked at it and went, We thought this research is going to be a little bit crazy, but I was like, Oh, actually this is, you've really found the insight. So it doesn't mean you have to be a cultural expert to understand. You can look at the ways, what language is used in an organization? What language does leadership use? Ask people if the culture was, particularly new people coming in, what was really different when you first joined here? Cause those different bits, those really quirky, Oh, it's weird that they do this here, is such an indicator of the culture and what it looks like.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Thanks. That's really helpful. And I love the story of the jungle animals and Heith you end up parachuting into a number of client organizations, obviously consulting capacity. So I'm wondering in terms of you aligning yourself to other cultures that you experience, what are some of the signals that you pick up on as you go in? And what are you reading, either in the room or beforehand, what are some of the things that you're looking out for?
Heath Gledhill:I think Understanding, Sue mentioned this earlier, putting yourself into the shoes of that person or the team or the organization that you're going into. I think to have that particular relationship, trust factor, the people who you need to connect with early, understanding what pressure they're under and what they need to be reporting up, I think is fundamental. You can't offer the advice if you don't understand what it is that they need to achieve as well. So that's probably one of the key things that I. So the thing that you really want to do is you want to make sure that you understand the person, and you want to know what the person is trying to do, which is often difficult though, because a lot of people will want to go in and say, well, I've done this before. I've got the answer. I know how to solve this. That may be the case, but I think jumping in without having the empathy of the person that you need to work with is really, you're missing a step in amongst it. So, I think that's probably the key to me. Other than I think some good old fashioned research on understanding what drives people. What's some of the, dare I say it, light background stalking that might need to be done to understand who the person is. What gets them motivated, so that you can have some of that really personal conversation with them. Because I think that helps break down barriers. Builds trust, but it also builds team. Now, some of the organizations that I've been in recently, when we would then go out and talk to some of our key stakeholders, they weren't sure whether I was a consultant, whether I was part of the main parent company or where I've suited into it and vice versa with some of that tank. So to me, that was a great demonstration of where the boundaries had been blurred to a point that everyone just thought we were one group delivering the project. So I think that's, to me, that's a really successful measure.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, it sounds like a pretty healthy. And balanced team environment, if that can be created and designing some of those conversations or coming into those conversations rather than the design them, but coming in with degree of empathy, obviously listening. actively and research can obviously help if there's an evidence base. Almost disassociates your know what's being discussed in the room quite subjectively in some cases with more of an outsider's their voice and or a customer voice from end user voice, which can be helpful as well. Well, a lot of what we discussed so far is around almost understanding the conditions in which we're working and operating in the room. within the team environment and who the key players are and who some of the personalities are. Do you have a sort of feel for how much of that work needs to be done before you can jump into action and start implementing? Do you feel like that's an ongoing thing? Is it something that you do up front? Like any practical advice there?
Heath Gledhill:It's definitely an ongoing thing without a doubt. Step number one is you never really can point. I think is a good way to think about it. And some research, yes, because you need to understand a lot of the projects that we get involved with, there are different stages of their life. So you need to understand what ground's already been covered. If you're coming into something that's, perhaps a few months in or a year in, or what have you, what's already happened? What, have there been any major decisions? Have there been any major hurdles? What are those bits and pieces? So it's that research component to be able to understand, empathize, to be able to then say, where are we at? You can ask some of those questions. Where are we at? What are the things that are really holding us back at the moment? What are some of the hurdles been? So we can get into those, that kind of questioning again, but with a level of understanding, but there's a supportive mechanism, I guess, that comes from that as well. So, and that needs to be cyclical. You can't kind of switch that on at the start and then say, thanks, I'm going to run off and deliver this and come back to you, to me, that doesn't work.
Sue Stewart:So Aurecon, we're soon to be releasing our next iteration of our design method. And so the stages are discover, define, ideate and activate. And to Heath's point, it's a little bit meta because in each stage you can again, be doing. Discover, define, ideate, activate. And I think that's really important as well in regards to not aiming for perfection all the time, because that's where you get too attached to something and you can't throw them out. You can't kind of go, this isn't working because you really just want to hold on to that baby. But it also means being really cognizant, like you said, what stages you're seeing. And also when you're communicating to people, explaining to them, we're in the ideate stage at the moment. We've gone through this process to get to here, here are the three things that we're going to test. And challenge and see which one is the best one to help people understand where they're at. And you're not, sometimes you bring people in at different stages and they may not have been in the early consultation and often there's a bit of confusion sometimes and they think they're at the beginning of the process and you're like, no, actually explain the process. So I think acknowledging that as well, both for them for their comprehension and the role that you want them to play and why you picked them in that stage. If you haven't included them In the whole process, why did you pick from that point? For me, implementation is kind of that activate component. And then once you're activating it, then you're discovering, did it work? What else has come out? What do we need to define? What other initiatives do we need?
Chris Hudson:Yeah. And yeah, like you say, yeah,
Sue Stewart:yeah, yeah.
Chris Hudson:Pass it on. We're
Sue Stewart:done. I'm out of here.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. I think the interesting thing that you said around the meta point, and that is like Christopher Nolan or whatever the analogy is you want to use, but you might have to go in and back or into any previous or future part of the projects at any time. And it's not as if, Anyone can predict what's going to be the subject of a meeting to that degree. You're always going to have to be somewhat flexible. You might draw on what's happened in the past. You might be visioning and looking ahead, obviously, and you might need to obviously backtrack if there are steps or something comes up later in the project that you weren't expecting or you have to go and revalidate or do something like that. So I think that, yeah, taking through an area of It's like a loosely held opinion or something that kind of means that you're open to that level of change. I think some people in some situations that I find that ends up feeling quite rigid. So how do you manage some of those conversations where a lot of people in the spirit of trying to be pragmatic and yeah, we've got to decide this within the next 30 minutes before the meeting ends. How do you get around that rigidity and this is where it happens.
Heath Gledhill:Sometimes. The reality is all projects have got a deadline, there's a timeline that we need to, so I think we were at loggerheads. So the way that we worked around that to get to something that needed to be reported up to government was to get them all in the room to hear and listen to them, but partway through the day to say we've heard and we've heard and we're cutting this point off. Here is what we are going to do now for the next X number of hours, and this is the point that we need to get to at the end of today, so being really clear, like Sue was saying earlier, listen, capture, recite back, but then be really clear with the comms around what we need to achieve, and often, it doesn't matter whether that's hours, or half an hour, or ten minutes, if you think about it from in a meeting, great, we've got to hear, these are decisions that we need to make in the next five minutes.
Yeah,
Heath Gledhill:it's that point of being direct and there's a level of taking control and charge of a situation, which I think that's probably lax, where it's the, oh, well, I sent the email, no one's responded to me, that's where we haven't actually taken control of the situation. And I think that that's where the processes that we try to work through is around. There's a level of empathy and there's always listening and there's always challenging, but there's an underlying layer of when navigating something here to get to the outcome we need to get to. Sometimes that's subtle. Okay.
Chris Hudson:Because that level of signposting in the meeting, it's not always there, is it? Like, the fact. Who would jump in to say it's not always clear? Some people obviously do that. And some meetings are not facilitated and curated in that way. So, how do you get around that way? It's all fairly loose.
Heath Gledhill:Yeah, I think Sue and I are really similar in this nature where you'd like to go into a meeting that then has some outcomes and some actions so that meeting is worthwhile, so number one, an agenda, because number one is critical, but I guess there's a point and often, I know Sue and I, I'm speaking for experience because we both often do this, we might be just invitees, but we will take it upon ourselves People who are what you might refer to as a completer finisher going great. So the actions off the back of this are sometimes it's just taking that step and saying, Oh, we need to move on.
Sue Stewart:And I think helping get to priorities as well. I think when going well, yes, we could do 10 things, but what are the top three? And then staging it. So being in the instance. You're talking about, if you've only got half an hour or whatever it is, well we're just going to do these three, but that's part one. The other ones are important, we know that, but for now this is what we're doing and then we'll move into the next phase and the next phase. I think phasing things as well helps. You haven't forgotten about these other things that someone else might think is really important and you're showing them that it's still there. But it's just not as important as what you're looking at. And it means if you stage things, it gives you permission to change and add an update. You're already saying we're releasing this thing or we're doing it. We're implementing it in different phases and therefore we will have different checkpoints and
Chris Hudson:milestones. Yeah, I really like that. I think there's definitely a kind of victim, like playing the victim syndrome when it comes to meetings. You turn up and things are thrown into your diary. Like, you know, it just feels like if you're in an organization, this is going to happen. You don't have control about whether you want to come or not sometimes. And obviously you're an attendee, but you're not sure what your role would be in that necessarily all the time.
Sue Stewart:I was just going to say that recently I went to a session, we've had a new leader join. Sorry, I can't remember what it is. I think she said it was a Swedish technique. It was somewhere in Scandinavia. And the idea is if you have an hour meeting. You plan for 50 minutes. And then that last 10 minutes is right, and it's not negotiable. And I was thinking, Oh my gosh, this is going to be the longest day ever, like we have to keep stopping. How, when are we ever going to get anything done? And when you have an all day workshop thing, you're exhausted at the end of it. You can't, cognitive ability is spent. I was fascinated in how energized I was by the end of this all day workshop. She was very clear. We'd get to the half hour point and she'd be like, okay, we're We've got 20 minutes to talk about these two topics. Do we want to spend 20 minutes just talking on one or do we want to cover both? And so we get to a point, let's say we said both and she's like, Oh, 10 minutes each. And then we get to the 10 minutes and she'd be like, I need to know more about this, but that's going to be another conversation. Okay, we're jumping. To the next point. And I was like, wow, it was a really good approach. I must admit. And we got through everything, but we also knew what the additional actions were following that meeting. If we didn't get to everything, it was actually
Heath Gledhill:solid facilitation.
Sue Stewart:Oh, it was like on point. I was pretty impressed.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I think the facilitation or having a captain in the room, it just feels like there needs to be some kind of voice within the flow of the meeting, but that's obviously got you to a certain outcome within the time and everyone leaves the room happy. And if there's a bit of time left over, then great, you get to leave a bit early as well, potentially. So very good. I'm wondering as well, whether that sort of thing is not really practiced universally all the time. I don't think you can necessarily bring that level of facilitation into the organizational culture and just roll it out unless it's standardized, unless it's trained. And have you got any experience of things like that, where there's the way in which something within a team or within a meeting format. And that might be another example, but where something's working really well, and you've tried to then amplify it across the organization and get a bit of momentum going around how those things are done. I don't know, Sue, within your cultural evolution type areas, you've done anything in that space where it's always like codifying and bottling the things that work really well and making that something that's then used by the people.
Sue Stewart:It's an interesting one. I'm just thinking about it now. When I was previously at an architectural firm, then I joined just as they created a new strategy. I was working as a workplace consultant and the board had asked me to come and do a bit of a review on the organization and how could they get greater traction on the strategy and what was working and what we could build on any project part of that process. I found really interesting coming into it, that we had a strategy, but we weren't really clear about our values and how we communicated and all these different types of things. So I'd been working on this. Transformation of the organization from all different elements. And so we decided to have a bit of a D day. The leader wanted a big bang. What are we going to do on this day? And so I stupidly, well, it worked, thank goodness, but decided that we would all launch at the exact same time around the globe. And so thankfully at the time we weren't in America, so we didn't have to worry about that time zone, but then it became. I didn't want to project on a country how they wanted to do it, like what was culturally relevant to them, because even in a culture, there's subcultures, sub subcultures in teams,
but
Sue Stewart:then also because it was a different country, it was another culture. And so I tended to work more on a framework and ideas and how could it shape and they became, I came with a vision of what I was looking for, but I let them own it and create that groundswell and what they were doing. Magically it worked. I still to this day, can't believe it all, but from. This is a few years ago now and technology's not quite like it is now, but it magically worked. Very different approaches all across the different organizations, which celebrated their own studio rather than it just being that how could a studio embody the strategy in the future forward was a really interesting way to do that. So I think freedom within a framework of letting people come up with their own ideas, letting them take some initiative to take things on and giving them ownership of that. Cause often in my role, everyone's got a lot of ideas. But you've only got so many times and so many hands. And so also saying, well, that's a great idea, Heath. Would you like to lead that, Heath?
Chris Hudson:Yeah. That sounds good. Heath, you work in an integrated leadership role. So I was going to ask you maybe a sort of similar spin on the same question, which is around how to almost bring that sense of unity and momentum and real purpose when people know that they're together in on the boat with something as well as celebrating and bringing in and really acknowledging that diversity, Sue's point there. I don't know if there's anything. Has a story that you want to share in anything that you've done or anything that springs to mind? Yeah,
Heath Gledhill:I think my journey in Aurecon, a great one to share around that. As I mentioned earlier, they're coming in just me. I've now got a team across Australia and New Zealand of about 170 people. So that's been an absolute journey and some real challenge, but to be able to create a completely new service offering within a very traditional engineering business. Has it looked bad? I think there's, that's, it's not necessarily a negative statement. It's just factual about where we're at. That's been really interesting to be able to work with people like Sue and some other important people around the business to be able to bring the vision together so that there's that beautiful elevator pitch, if you like, around what it is of the value of this team and then working with our broader business, so we're. Set up as regions. Working with every region to be able to say, is there opportunity for this here? Should we consider how we might be able to either build a team or perhaps we can be supporting here through existing people. So that journey is by no means over. Probably only in our early stages of being there, even though we do have a presence everywhere. But I think the evolution of what the group is. And then equally bringing the broader business on the journey is going to be something that's going to be continuous. I can't see a point in time that we will ever stop. And then if you layer in everything of today's trends around automation and AI and what have you, the possibilities of what the group can do is ever changing. I don't think we'll be ever done, but that's okay. I'm okay with the ambiguity in it and the opportunity. I think it's probably the other way to think about that too.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, it sounds like you're still on the journey. Obviously you've been on quite a long one already. There'll be people that have been in, from the start. Some people are joining a little bit later or halfway through. Do you feel like from your experience as well from a change management point of view, what are some of the ways to get on board with things that are either in flight, what would you recommend to people coming into some of those team environments? knowing that certain things have been established, that they want to put their mark on what's being done and obviously present their own strengths. But do you feel like from a change management point of view, there are ways in which you can integrate with some of those team environments more successfully?
Sue Stewart:When I look at initiatives internally, I am always looking at what would this mean to a new person? How would they be onboarded? What happens if they're walking into this and we, we launched six months ago? Like how do they actually get into that So always thinking about, what are the resources that they would need to get them up to that point? How do we link into that? When I first joined Oracle and I came in to set their knowledge strategy and all of that was also making sure that we were inducting every new person into that process. So as a knowledge team, we would be part of the induction every single month. And people are like, is that a good use of your time? And it's like, yes, Because new people know how important it is that we're on teams, but we were all part of that conversation. And then we would also have follow up sessions with those new people to say, now we're going to invite you to a special Just session to actually make you learn part of this. And what that meant as well was, I always like to look at things from a bit of a FOMO component as well, the value of a new person coming in and imagine being that new person that was inducted so well in knowledge that when someone was saying, I wonder if we've done any projects in this space, this person, new person goes, yeah, we have actually, and then they're looking at the new person going, well, how do you know? And I've been here for how many years? And I don't know. So actually giving them some skills and equipping them with something that really helps them feel part of valued in a team really quickly. So I do always try and think about what are those assets. to help do that. But then also, how do you continually evolve them and make them fresh? So even from a, what are the ongoing elements that you need to bring into the process? And when I look at initiatives, I always look at the kind of four key factors for me. So from a communications lenses, this communication, does it inform Does it equip? Does it give someone the skill to be able to do what they do? Does it enable them? Does it engage? Does it actually let them enable to come back and give feedback? Yes, that was really good or be part of the early process of it. And then finally, does this actually embed? Does it mean that this helps stick with where we're going? And When I look at the kind of strategy for communications and change and looking at it with that lens and suddenly going, I can look at people's strategies and going, all of those things is all they do is inform people. None of it embeds it, none of this equips them with the skills or trying to get that balance and understanding when you're implementing that most of your informed component. It really should be at that kind of the front end with the engagement aspect and then that equipping in the middle and then making sure that post going live is really looking at that embed component as well.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, I like that. That kind of caused the role of strategy to question a little bit because it's often practiced in different ways to that, it's very much in form as you say, but It's not taking that step on to onboarding people or to almost passing over to set expectations around what the desired action is and what people are meant to do with it. I think obviously the best strategies are made and packaged in the way that you've described, but that's not often the case. Maybe even rarely the case. I don't know how often, it's all thought of to that extent, but it does feel like it does fall short a lot of the time. So I think there's a role for strategic leaders to do that obviously. But I think for meds and juniors who, We're in the room and obviously on the receiving end of some of these communications that go out that people can be challenging that a little bit and maybe asking the questions around some of those areas that you've just outlined to which I think would be really useful. Yeah, there's probably maybe another part to it, which is around leadership and working with the C suite. From the point of view, obviously, you've talked about momentum and how we've talked a bit about strategy and how to bring about cultural evolution in a broader sense. But if we're thinking about leadership and how to almost drive change within an organization from within and what you would need to do and talk to and cover off with your leadership. Have you got any stories from that side of things that would highlight what has worked in engaging with your leadership?
Sue Stewart:Depends on what level, I suppose. Are you talking board level? Are you talking C suite level? Are you talking that next level down? And I think thinking about it from the lens of what's above the line and what's below the line. And so above the line being that it's a, if it's a for profit organization, well, I'm assuming, and even if it's not for profit, it's not for loss really, isn't it? What are the things above the line will sustain the business and keep it growing and moving forward then what's below the line being things like Culture and other aspects that have got that long tail end and are really difficult to measure, it's really, really difficult to, yes, I could measure. a cultural score, depending on what type of measurement you might use. But then still, what does that cultural score mean to above the line? Has it helped us do that? So I do try and start with what are the both sides of that and making sure that those conversations with leadership are leaning towards above the line, still respecting the cultural aspects. But at the end of the day, it's understanding, what are they being measured on? And how is this initiative that I'm trying to get their buy in for actually going to help them as well? So again, I suppose going back to the very beginning when we were talking about empathy and understanding the stakeholders that you're dealing with, it's really coming back to that as well.
Heath Gledhill:It's almost a formula when you think, like, in some ways, just listening to us both have this conversation, it probably really doesn't matter whether it's C suite or the team. There's some basic fundamentals in the way that you approach things and a lot of those are around what is that person experiencing that I need to be cognizant of. What is that person responsible for that I need to be cognizant of in amongst this process? There's some application of things which are the same, similar, across the various levels potentially.
Sue Stewart:The difficulty I think with leadership is time and getting the time that you need to get that engagement and being cognizant of that. And a group that I've been working with design directors over the last three and a half years, just conscious of their time and sending emails and everyone gets, I don't know how many emails a day and you get teams chats and whatsapp groups and Yammer and all these different things. And, I've been trying, I've been trying with them to actually if I need to send them a communication, that I give them the cliff notes at the top too. I give them like the dot points. If you don't have time to read any more below this point, know these three things, that's it. And then you can give them, and I try and do subheadings and dot points, and how can I make it easier to get their engagement. And yes, I'm just conscious of that and knowing that sometimes they may be, reading these communications at different hours or weekends just because they're at that level. How can you make it as easy as possible for them to go, or I can skip that and be available for them when they need to come and talk to you.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, great. A really good point is there. So one around see pitching it at the right level above below the line and maybe showing the connected lines and then also, just in terms of information design a little bit how you presenting it and what are you doing in the way in which you're using that time most valuably. What can they take from it in the 20 minutes and a half an hour that they might have or maybe less. So I think that gives a nice segue onto maybe some of the questions I was going to ask you Heath as well around the kind of empathy extending out into the wide world and community centered design. And obviously we've talked a lot about designing for people within the business and how you would conduct your work. But a lot of your projects are obviously involving broader communities, you're building precincts and you're, you know, you're doing a lot of things out there in the big world. So in terms of, I don't know, any, maybe talk to your work a little bit, but also some of the takeaways for people looking to incorporate a level of empathy with the outside world and how they might go about doing that.
Heath Gledhill:Yeah. I think we work A lot of transport projects, as an example, and it might be around providing a new rail line that allows people to get from point A to point B. Great, that's why I go back to our engineers and say, awesome, I know you can do this. If you then step a few points back and go well, who is it for? Why do they need it? And then what are the things that they need to be able to engage or when they're on the journey to, from, and during using that piece of transport? And that's where. That humanistic, empathetic, very user centered components start to come into it. So, that's about understanding yourself, Chris or I or Sue on our way home. We've caught the train. We perhaps are then having a connecting service with a bus or walking. What are the things that we might want to do on the way around convenience of picking up groceries or something for the kids on the way home or and so on and so forth. Equally, it could be what's that journey from that transport component. So what is the piece around accessible streets, public lighting that type of thing to be able to enable you to safely get home. So there's that component to it. The other component then, I think, becomes a little bit more technical around what is it that we're designing if I think about a rail station, for instance. Understanding what's the volume of people that we're catering for, and then thinking about the different abilities of people, so whether it might be a mother with a pram that needs to use an elevator, rather than using the escalator, or someone in a wheelchair, or someone who is visually impaired, and then, How do you spatially start to arrange a station and the connectivity in it so that you are not disadvantaging any individual user and so that's where taking that very humanistic approach to it and working with architects and engineers operators and what have you is a really critical part. So that integration role of understanding all the various parts. And weighing all of those up when we're going through the design solution is a really critical part to making sure that we can all stand back as designers. And so we've pushed this to the point that we think that it is achievable, but it also offers an equitable outcome for all of the people who are going to be using it.
Sue Stewart:I think with that as well, earlier this year, Heath and I led a workshop and it was innovation unleashed. Was it? Yeah, something along those lines. And so essentially it was, there are no constraints. So, we gave them a problem of a space, open personas, and we forced them through this very restrained, interestingly, it was no constraints, but we gave them constraints in terms of what we let them do as the workshop unfolded. And although some of their ideas, you probably there might've been a few children that may have fallen into the Yarra based on their design, the interesting components that when they didn't have any constraints around, you can't do this and you can't do that. Some of the ideas. We're really, really fascinating of how you would have integrated them together. So maybe sometimes as well, it's actually having a moment where you just forget about all of the regulations and particular requirements and actually push yourself further. Because when you do that, you end up spending more time on the people. Yeah. Rather than saying we can't do that because of whatever, regulation or whatever it is. Was it funny outcome? Yeah. Lots of pipe cleaners and Play Doh. That was good. Nice.
Chris Hudson:Sounds fun. Sounds fun. Yeah, that, those sessions are great. I think there's almost the fun bit, but it's also maybe for some people sitting with discomfort a little bit more you can see in the room, like who's really up for it and who's like, Oh, I don't know how we're going to do this and I'm not sure. Yeah, they feel a bit more conservative or less comfortable with the approach. Did you have to manage some of those types of people as well?
Heath Gledhill:Oh, absolutely. I think we had probably 15 tables of about eight people on each table and some of the tables were often running to the point that we're going maybe let's just try and narrow this back to something that could be put on the ground where others were stunted by the fact that they had no rules to be able to allow them to start. Yeah, it was helping people talk. So when we would set the, I guess the exercises up that there was a focus main problem and an envelope with some of the tools that then they were able to open in stages. I think to Sue's point, there was no rules, but there were, there was structure in the way that we set it up to try to help people. Get them to think about things in a particular way and that's usual in any problem. I think in any project with any client, you're going to have some people within an organization or within a group that are, yes, great, let's get going and others that are stuck or, You can't do
Sue Stewart:that. You can't do that. There was a woman on one table. She's like, you just can't design that way. And it's like, yeah, get going.
Chris Hudson:I think it's one workshop, but it really represents a lot of what happens in the wider work environment when it comes to complex programs of work or these projects, because you're encountering these blockers all the time. Right and if you're feeling passionate about something that does need to be put forward or need to change, then you want I'm going to handle that sensitively, but not everyone is almost in that mindset. Do you think that mindset shift is something that can be switched on in the moment when everyone is just completely locked? They're really fixed in their thought process and mindset. Do you feel like you can stretch that in the moment? Do you feel like there are different ways in which that needs to be tackled, do you think?
Sue Stewart:I wouldn't suggest to do this in all circumstances.
Chris Hudson:Yeah.
Sue Stewart:It's the timing, but I think it's also creating the environment for that curiosity is really important. And so even in that session, the fact that we did have played Play Doh and these sparkly pom poms and they knew it was a bit fun and different. Being cognizant that you can't do that in But creating an environment where it's okay to play a bit to get Some of those constraints out and make you feel a little bit uncomfortable and understanding. Where is your bias coming from here? Are you coming from just one lens or one discipline perspective and you're not considering the others? And that was what some of the tables were saying Actually having not having the constraints was getting away from their bias as well
Heath Gledhill:I think the diversity, you know The environment that we work in and that we in the way that we operate as well It's around making sure that you've got you know A diverse set of skills and experiences at the table, because then to your point, Chris, around if people, if you've got this a group of the same professional background, they'll often be constrained by what they know, where insert perhaps any one of us three into a complex engineering problem. We will think about it differently. It's just the way that we're wired. And because of our experiences, we would do that. So I think that piece around. diversity and really stimulating the question around it is really important.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. There's a lot of chat around imposter syndrome, but maybe the imposter is actually a healthy person to introduce at times, right? So they feel like they're not in that environment usually, but actually that can create this sort of, this groundswell of really interesting and diverse thought and could just take it into different places potentially. Yeah.
Sue Stewart:So particularly if you've created an environment of trust So that if someone does have that imposter syndrome, they feel they can ask the questions and feel okay that they're asking these questions. And sometimes it might just mean the people in the room aren't actually communicating in the right way. And it's, so the person who's not really understanding where they are, it's actually, you do have a lot of value to bring. We may not be communicating it effectively to you in a way that you can add that value.
Chris Hudson:Thank you. I want to finish on a thought which is just a question really around, It's about intrapreneurship and obviously your leaders and very established leaders and you've been doing things within Aurecon for a little while as well, I want to get a sense of as intrapreneurs, if you can associate with that in any way what kind of drives you to do what you do and what's continued, what's been behind the kind of continued energy and passion that you bring to the work that you do. Do you think it?
Heath Gledhill:I can, yeah, it's for me, I came into Aurecon similar to Sue, working in a design, office in a design studio for a number of years. And there was a realization around the fact that designers are often, brought into projects a long way down the timeframe of a project where we would then be receiving a brief. And I recall, almost on every occasion thinking if I had have been involved in a conversation on this earlier. we would be in a different position right now. So the way to be able to overcome that was to be able to work out who gets to the table to have the conversation earlier. And often larger engineering practices are well connected with government agencies or other delivery authorities as well. So that's a way of being able to, as I've done, I guess, coming into work on establishing a practice that Is really driving that conversation up front, setting the strategy in place up front, but being able to set that strategy up, having had the experience in the delivery side of things on a number of major projects as well. So, rather than writing a strategy that is great on paper, but void of the reality of delivery and does not have any measurables in it, we can work to drive that from the outset. What gets me out of bed is that job's never going to be over, regardless of automation and AI and everything else we're doing. There's a humanistic component to the work that we bring that will not get taken over and it will always be needed. So that's probably what gets me up and out and continuing to push as it would be each day.
Sue Stewart:For me, I love learning, I love new environments, my undergraduate degree is not the area that I'm currently working in, I've never really done the same role twice. I love moving into a space of, What is this thing? Okay, alright, and pushing the sleeves up and getting in there. I have a terrible poker face, so Heath knows at all times how I'm feeling, as does everyone else. But I'm also really passionate, so I suppose I use that as a bit of my superpower to try and get others excited about, just as much as I am about, excited about this new approach. And I've been very fortunate throughout my career to have leaders who have, who've appreciated that difference. This thing that I could probably throw anything at Sue in a different role and she'll just work it out. So I suppose, weirdly enough, my undergraduate degree is in agricultural science of which I'm not in that field anymore. But the principles of what I learned through that process around research and how you pull that together and get a hypothesis and then you've got to work out how you get the answer is actually my work of what I do now. So I do draw on those traditional skills and where that sits. And I love seeing change happen and that transformation and people being excited about things. I just love being part of that process and bringing them on the journey. I'm someone that likes to be at the back nudging forward as opposed to the person at the front turning around seeing that no one's there. I just love being part of that community and part of that approach.
Chris Hudson:Oh, yeah. That's really great. Thank you Sue, thank you, Heath. And thank you, Sue. Yeah, I think, I can relate to that a bit at the front and the back, I think, but yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting. There are a lot of people coming. I think the workplace as it stands, some things a bit, some parts of it stay the same, but other parts are becoming more bewildering and maybe a bit more confusing and harder to navigate and the rate of change within careers. Transitioning within careers is exciting. It's probably more exciting and manageable than it ever has been. But that can be quite daunting for a lot of people out there. So I think the way in which you described it, both in almost riding out the change and obviously being energized by it, I think is incredibly powerful. So really appreciate your perspectives on this today, Sue and Heath. And you've given plenty of advice through the course of the conversation to our listeners, the intrapreneurs, and obviously existing leaders as well. So really appreciate your time.
Sue Stewart:Thanks for inviting us, Chris. It's been fun. Thank you. Something new we jumped into. Yep, something new.