E64 Raw Courage and Reinvention: From Stripper to Global Executive

"Imposter syndrome is not conquered by achievements. The more achievements that you have, sometimes it can disconnect you more from your sense of worth. That is why I believe in being so raw and open about my stuff now. Now that I have the privilege to do it." - DeAnna Avis

This week’s theme

DeAnna Avis’ story is not your typical corporate success tale—it’s raw, real, and powerfully inspirational. From the glittering stages of strip clubs to the boardrooms of global corporations, DeAnna's transformation is nothing short of jaw-dropping.

In this episode, DeAnna takes us through her difficult upbringing, battling mental health struggles, addiction, and homelessness, all while navigating the highs and lows of working as a stripper. But that's only the beginning. Today, she's a global executive, therapist, and coach who helps others thrive through adversity. DeAnna candidly discusses overcoming imposter syndrome, embracing authenticity, and the challenges of staying true to yourself in a world that often judges from the outside. Her insights into personal growth, leadership, and breaking free from self-limiting beliefs are inspiring and deeply relevant for intrapreneurs aiming to create their own success stories.

Don’t miss this episode—DeAnna’s story will shake up everything you think you know about success, resilience, and the power of transformation.

In this episode, you’ll hear about:

• The impact of authenticity
• Imposter Syndrome
• The significance of seeking support
• Concept of schemas—mental patterns that influence behaviour and perceptions
• Managing digital distraction
• Practice of writing "morning pages" for mental clarity
• Navigating triggers and trauma
• Proactive career development
• The power of positive foundations
• Complexity of identity and diversity

Key links

• DeAnna Avis LinkedIn
• Julia Cameron’s "Morning Pages"
• Company Road Podcast E40 – Lael Stone

About our guest 

DeAnna Avis is a speaker, consultant and coach on thriving through adversity. A former stripper, she climbed the ranks of corporate, taking on global leadership roles and winning multiple awards for her work in customer experience and culture change. 

She since went on to re-train as a therapist and coach, and uses her experience of adversity to uplift other leaders and entrepreneurs. Her mission is to conquer imposter syndrome through helping other ambitious misfits to embrace their unique brilliance.

About our host

Our host, Chris Hudson, is a Teacher, Organisational, Service & Product Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road. 

Chris helps organisations become more customer-centric, and sets up systems within businesses to motivate teams to deliver against higher value outcomes. 

Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. 

He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business

For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at https://companyroad.co/podcast/

Transcript

Chris Hudson: 0:07

Alright, hey everyone, I'm pretty excited today, I'm feeling quite excited. I got back from the University of Melbourne today and I was invited to tell my story of launching and creating this podcast to a bunch of masters level marketing students. And they're learning about the power of social marketing and viral content. And it was super cool to meet a lot of people who were interested in the show, get questions and very nice to kind of get some feedback on it too. So. They're thinking about it from their own future career planning point of view and they want to understand the ins and outs of corporate life, which as a student feel like it's very far away and you don't know what it's going to involve. And I think things like podcasts can really help bring those situations to life for a lot of people out there that don't really know about what it will involve until they hit the world of work. So since I started the show about a year ago, I've had So many amazing stories of how something on this show has sparked an idea or a change or a fresh perspective on what can be done as an intrapreneur. Just encourage any listeners out there to obviously share any feedback whenever you can, and if you've got a question, then send it through, we're happy to help. I want to move on to today's episode and it's going to be really special. I want to welcome you all to the company road podcast. And we, we obviously explore what it takes for intrapreneurs to change companies and organizations and inspire personal growth for themselves. And today, we've got a very special guest who just simply embodies the spirit of transformation and resilience. And Deanna Avis is not your typical corporate success story. And she's shattered expectations and redefined what it means to be a leader through her own journey. Deanna was formerly a stripper and turned corporate. Global executive, and she's done some amazing things. And it's going to be really cool to go into Deanna's story. Deanna, you've won multiple awards for the work that you've done in customer experience and cultural change, and your journey is continuing to grow. Obviously you've retrained as a therapist and as a coach, and you're dedicating yourself to helping others thrive through adversity. So I think it's really cool. I want to say massive welcome to you first, Deanna. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

DeAnna Avis: 1:58

Yeah. Thank you so much, Chris. I'm really excited to be here. I'm really grateful to you for resonating with my story and helping share it. So hopefully other people, you know, with messy pasts and big aspirations can also go for it and continue to rewrite their story. Our story is never finished.

Chris Hudson: 2:14

That's right. I mean you talk a lot in your own social media about your mission and thinking about conquering imposter syndrome by empowering some of the what you call ambitious misfits to basically embrace their unique brilliance in one way or another. And your story is really part of that in terms of the power of personal perseverance and authenticity. Staying true to that but obviously finding where you can take things as well. So maybe we start with that and I'm just curious to know and the listeners will be curious as well. In terms of your own personal story maybe you could just walk through what's happened. in your life and what shaped your outcome, you think, where you've situated things now?

DeAnna Avis: 2:49

Yeah, certainly. I mean, there's a lot to it. As someone with ADHD, I tend to have a million personalities, a million different directions I could go off in. I'll try and kind of sum it up as, as you can hear from my accent, I'm from the States. Born in California and lived there until I was 18 and came to the UK when I was 19. When I was in the US, I had a very troubled upbringing. You know, my parents split up. I had a lot of mental health issues. I was sectioned for anorexia. I ended up being expelled from high school because I had missed so much school as a result of my mental health. And so I went from being someone who had all this potential. I'd played violin since the age of three. I was always a straight A student. I was always like the teacher's pet. Not always the favorite of the other kids in the class, often the one that they copied my homework, but two, being expelled and then all of a sudden like my just life went off the rails. And at that time when I was expelled, I had met someone in the hospital, one of my best friends, and she introduced me to drugs. And so this good girl started getting into crystal meth, as you do in the States. So I had crystal meth before I'd even ever had a drink of alcohol. That's kind of the irony of the States because they're so strict about drinking. You have to be 21 and over. So it's like, the only option for you is to do illegal stuff. Right. So it's, It's so common that kids are like doing all these drugs before they get into a bar. Because of that little detour that I took, I ended up getting It's very addictive. I got very, very addicted to it. It didn't help with my mental health. And long story short, I ended up basically homeless. Like I left my house. I was like, I cannot stay here. I'm going to kill myself if I do. I never did. Tried to, by the way. It's just what I was feeling at that time. And so I knew I had to get out. So I got out, um, and I moved to Berkeley, which is just across from San Francisco. Long story short, I had lined up a room to rent. And on the day that I arrived there, the guy who was renting, it said, Oh no, actually the deposit is double what I told you. I didn't have double that to give me. So he threw me out on the sidewalk, 10 PM in a strange city. No one didn't know where to go. So I found myself in a strange city, technically homeless. Thankfully found couch surfing for a few weeks, didn't actually have to sleep on the streets, but I was in a very, very rough space. This is another thing that I'm very passionate about. I don't come from a background that has a lot of economic privilege. So I feel that I had educational privilege and that I went to a good school. It was a state school, but I didn't have economic stability. My family had experienced being evicted. You know, we didn't own a house. We'd been temporarily homeless and had to stay with people. And so when I was going out on my own, I had zero cushion. nothing. And so I had to navigate this and I couldn't call on anyone to help me. So as I was looking for like, what the fuck can I do to get myself out of this situation? You know, looking at jobs as a barista and stuff and nothing, nothing, nothing paid enough to cover rent. And I was like, I can't be freaking homeless forever. And I'm, I'm a student and I'm Trying to buy textbooks and stuff as well. And I ended up just thinking it would be easier to be a stripper. I don't even know how the idea came to me. It was just there in San Francisco. It's like the vibe there is very bohemian. There's a North beach has got like the strip with like a ton of strip clubs. And I, Basically just was chatting to the people there. And I was like, which is the best strip club? I was talking to the guy in the sex club next door. He was the one who told me his favorite strip club. So I was like, okay, I trust this guy who I've just met. I just went and applied in case anyone is wondering what the job application is like for being a stripper that you literally, they get up there and just dance for us and take off your clothes, do it, just do it. So anyways, I did it. I got hired and I was able to pay my rent. And, and that was that. Now, I would not recommend this as a career choice. I really, really, really do not recommend it. I still have so much trauma from those days. It's not as glamorous or empowering as people make it seem. Did it out of desperation, and I am kind of also frustrated with this narrative that, Oh, it's empowering and you know, you're owning your body and all of that. It's not empowering to be sexually assaulted at work regularly. I just want to put that out there in terms of my perspective on this. That is something that I overcame, but it's not something that I'm proud of. It's something I'm proud of having lived through. So then after that, I fell in love. I eloped in Las Vegas. So as you can see, I'm a very like, not someone who necessarily thinks things through. I jump and then figure it out. So eloped in Las Vegas to a wonderful man who I'm still married to from the UK. And we came to the UK and he was the only person who gave a shit about me. You know, there's this thing in society where we want to be so non judgmental that we end up sometimes supporting people and doing stuff that's not good for them. Whereas my husband now was the only person who was like, No, I don't want you doing that. That makes me sad. That's not good for you with the drugs and the stripping. And he was the one who put that boundary that helped me stop. Whereas the boyfriend I'd had before that was like, Oh, whatever, you know, you just do that. And I was just going deeper and deeper into the addiction and the dependency on the sex industry. So anyways, meeting my husband really changed that, gave me the strength to give it up because I loved him so much and I didn't want to lose him. And so when I came to the UK at 19, so bear in mind, I was just a freaking baby when I got married, right?

Chris Hudson: 7:38

Yeah, right. So you were 18 and you moved to Berkeley and then All within a year, basically, you were saying?

DeAnna Avis: 7:42

All within a year, and then got married towards the end of that, and then at 19 UK. And that was okay, fresh start. No one needs to know about the expulsion, about the mental health issues, about the stripping, about the drugs. And it was okay, how much can I perform? And it turns out I can perform quite well. So I got a data entry job at a, an engineering company. And Climbed the ranks, got five promotions, ended up leading their global customer experience program and a bunch of really cool projects around the world, uh, in Europe and Asia, the U. S. And it was amazing. I was there for 10 years. What I found with that was I can do amazing stuff, but I felt like I didn't belong because I was hiding so much who I was. And I felt this constant imposter syndrome that if they ever find out about you, no one's going to think that you're worth it. Being here basically. And that's why I'm so passionate about speaking out about it because imposter syndrome is not conquered by achievements. In fact, the more achievements that you have, sometimes it can disconnect you more from your sense of worth if they actually knew. And then there's this bigger gap between your self worth and what you've achieved. So that is why I believe in being so raw and open about my stuff. Now, now that I have the privilege to do it as an entrepreneur, I know that when you're employed, it's hard. To sometimes be out about yourself, whether it's, whether you're neurodivergent or have mental health issues or have experienced addiction. So I know it's a privilege to be able to speak out and I want to use that privilege to help people because I have so many people contact me and say, you have really helped me to see myself differently, to stop judging myself, to believe in myself. And so anyways, just to wrap up kind of my trajectory after doing that job for 10 years and having those amazing experiences in that global leadership role, I got headhunted, led a really successful customer experience transformation at an insurance company here in the UK, um, won a ton of awards for that. And then I was like, okay, now what? I'm not a turn the wheel kind of person. So I took that as my opportunity to go into entrepreneurship, train as a coach, and now do a mixture of coaching and consulting. And also I'm continuing to work on my training as a therapist as well.

Chris Hudson: 9:40

Amazing. What a story. Do you tell the story a lot? I do. I mean, now that it's in the open, you probably feel infinitely more comfortable, and obviously through those stages and through that journey, it would have been a lot harder. It sounds like, come to terms with it, you're feeling quite proud of what you've achieved, and quite rightly so. I mean, that's an incredible turnaround.

DeAnna Avis: 9:56

Thank you. You know what? It's very recent that I started talking about this. I think it was in January of this year, um, that I came out of the closet with like my full story. I'm at peace with it. It has been the most liberating thing to just know that no one has got anything on me. You can call me whatever you want. It doesn't matter because I'm putting it out there. There's no secrets here.

Chris Hudson: 10:16

Yeah. I think, I mean, some people in their lives come to that point where they realize that they're old enough and they've been worrying too long about what people think of them and how they're judged. And actually we often think that, but most of the time, we don't. people thinking about themselves rather than other people. You think you're walking down the street and everyone's just judging you, but they're not. And I think there's something to be said for that, both within general context, but within the world of work. Although you're in a role to perform, you're not always going to be judged in the way that you think you will be. Your story of just being able to be totally comfortable with who you are and where you've been and where it's taken you is incredible. There's just so much that I think people don't understand. and haven't had it as tough as you there. But I just think that story of resilience and strength and being able to take comfort from all the achievements that you've subsequently just lined up one after the other is just awesome. So yeah, well done. I mean, that's cool. Talking about strength and resilience, what were some of the things that you think kind of pulled you through? You mentioned your partner and husband. Were there particular moments where it was just you and you thought, okay, well, I've got to do something for myself here and I've really got to pull myself out, out of this situation. So. Is there anything like that that you want to tell us about?

DeAnna Avis: 11:25

It depends where you are, because at certain depths, I couldn't have pulled myself out of it. I really couldn't have. When I was in the depths of addiction and the depths of that horrible job that was traumatizing me and I was really like dissociating at work, I wasn't even there. Someone had to see that glimmer of me in there for me to be able to reconnect with that glimmer. And so I think that Partly why I'm so passionate about what I do as a coach. I mean, obviously not everyone's in that extreme of a circumstance, but sometimes we lose that glimmer of who we actually are beyond all the knocks that life has given us. So I think it's like finding that glimmer and whatever way you can through. Someone else or through under resonating with other people's stories and just seeing who else has done it. It hasn't been like a fell in love. Everything's fixed now. No, if you've come through trauma that I carried that with me and it's been very difficult. I had very, very difficult time in my twenties as well. So I'm now completely fine. over for four and a half years because I just can't do anything. I've just discovered I can't do anything. I hardly even touch caffeine because anything there is I'll overdo it. It's about identifying your patterns because the patterns change the superficial aspects of it. So for example, I stopped the drugs, but that pattern is replaying itself in other ways. So what identifying your own patterns and how they're playing out and then seeking support to change them. So a big part of my resilience has been reaching out for help. So I had therapy for a number of years, like five years and amazing dbt and schema therapists. So a lot of what changed my life really was learning about schemas. I'm really. Really passionate about it. And I work with my clients with it as well. So basically a schema is a mental pattern that we have. We all have schemas. It's something that we develop. You're not even aware that they're there. A schema is like a pair of glasses that you put on. So for example, one of my schemas, the unrelenting standards schema. So this is the belief that you're never good enough. And no matter what I do, it's not enough. So I would say like for people out there, if you're really interested, there's free schema tests that you can do online and just start to understand what is your mode of coping with life. And then that allows you to make an empowered decision about how you want to take things forward rather than doing things by default. Learning about your patterns, seeking support, looking for glimmers of who you are, seeing that in other people who've also been through shit and trusting people when they say good stuff about you until you're at a point where you can then pull yourself.

Chris Hudson: 13:39

The glimmers of hope. I think we've all felt down. A lot of people want to empathize and a lot of people want to relate to your situation, but it's almost hard to take that on board sometimes because people, they don't really know, right? I mean, there is your friend or there is your partner, but they don't really know what you're going through. And so when they offer an olive branch or a glimmer or a suggestion, parents are really good at that, you know, or managers are really good at this. Bad ones as well, where they're saying, have you thought about doing this? And it's basically fixed on an outcome rather than actually helping you. Um, sit with your feeling or your emotion, understand it, observe it maybe a little bit and then think about how you would get yourself out rather than teaching people how to fish a little bit. You need to kind of guide people without just giving them the answer sometimes. Do you, do you feel that?

DeAnna Avis: 14:22

Definitely. And because we have so much of being told what to do, I think that even if there's a good idea, if you tell someone to do it, they're less inclined to do it. So I think it's more about helping someone reconnect with what's really important to them. Where are they trying to get to? What's blocking them? So, like, asking the right questions to unlock that realization rather than telling them, I, from the outside, see this. Because no one knows that person as well as they do. So there's also an arrogance there in thinking that we have the answers for someone else. I don't have the answers. A manager doesn't have the answers. You, who are listening to this podcast, have the answers for yourself. And it's about finding that space to open up that curiosity and explore. Where you're trying to get to, what's blocking you from getting there, and moving forward from that.

Chris Hudson: 15:03

Have you found any rituals work in that respect? Just finding your space when it just feels like the world is becoming a much, you know, busier, more saturated. Like, there's, there's stuff going on everywhere, right? You can rarely find that time to yourself if you want to. It's just really hard. Do you have any kind of routines or techniques or things that you introduced into your life that you think help?

DeAnna Avis: 15:24

It's true. The world is so, so busy now. The answers are found in the silence and the silence is becoming increasingly rare. So we really have to engineer spaces for that. So things that I've found helped, I would say like kind of three core things. So basically one, it sounds really cliche, right? But having an app blocker on your phone, I've tried all of them. They don't fucking work. because you just learn how to get around it, right? But I found one, yeah, it's like, okay, well, I just have to jump through some hoops to do it. I'm still going to jump through those hoops because my little dopamine is begging for another hit. So what I did find, it's connected to an ad blocker on your phone. And so you cannot access your apps until you put that chip on the back of your phone. So the only thing that helps me is like, if I go out and I leave that chip, like in a drawer, I can not, my phone is a brick. I can just use it for phone calls. It really helps because it's a physical barrier that makes you. Disconnect because we're just so addicted to it. The other thing that really helps me, and I've been doing this since I was a teenager on and off because it does require a little bit of time is Julia Cameron. She's a. speaker on creativity. She recommends morning pages. That is f ing life changing, honestly. So basically, morning pages is every morning, in longhand, you write three pages of whatever is on your mind. And it could be the same sentence over and over again, but it's just clearing it out. It is like, your brain feels so clear after that. And quite often, like, the first half of my morning pages is just really mundane rambling. And then by the end, I've solved, like, a really deep problem. So that is just a really, amazing process and it's so easy. Give yourself a ritual of like 15 minutes every morning, morning pages, just write longhand and you'll be amazed what comes out with no pressure. And then just the third bit is I think whenever I'm stuck on a problem, I like going for a run, but if you're not, if you hate running, which a lot of people do, just go for a walk with no headphones and that being in motion and having silence and just setting the intention for whatever it is and just allowing that to work through. That also really helped.

Chris Hudson: 17:19

Brilliant suggestions. Yeah. I like the one with the running and the walking. People have to try to disconnect now. It's not like you can just disconnect because you're walking down the street. You need to basically make a deliberate choice not to be connected to something or other as we see for ourselves and our teenage children and all that sort of stuff too. It's a hard one. And I think the work environment is the same. Pretty hard. I like the way that the morning pages feels like it's taking the science is golden and all of that. It's basically giving you a part where point at which you can accelerate. The thinking that you have and quiet in your mind just by putting it all down on paper. And it's, it's not like journaling at the end of the day. It was, Oh, well I have to write everything down. But it's at the start of the day where you're just trying to get your brain into gear. So I think that's pretty good. How long have you been doing that for?

DeAnna Avis: 18:01

I think I started it when I was 16. It was around when I'd been expelled from high school. And I just remember wandering around. I love being on my own and just wandering around and writing in my notebook and got into it from there. And it just is this amazing clearing. And with everything that I was going through there, I found so much peace just through doing that. It really is like having your head scrubbed all the gunk that's in there comes out if you do that.

Chris Hudson: 18:24

Yeah. Wow. You must have a pretty good record of what's happened to you over the course of your life, if you started it back then.

DeAnna Avis: 18:29

I did. But you know what I did? So I wish I hadn't cause so many journals and things, but I actually destroyed them when I was 18. There was a lot of stuff in there.

Chris Hudson: 18:39

Yeah, fair enough. I mean, you're carrying that, you're carrying that burden, like you're saying, and there's things that you probably think about still, or that would get triggered by something or other. I know part of the healing process, but it's also hard to come to terms with, I'm sure, when it catches you in an unexpected way. We often find ourselves in those situations where somebody at work, or there's a meeting, you know, something's said, it could be a word or a scenario, you know, just brings up a bad memory. Is that kind of, accurate for you? Is that something you can relate to?

DeAnna Avis: 19:04

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I've been diagnosed with complex PTSD, which people get when they've been in basically long term traumatic situations. So, they originally created complex PTSD for like hostage survivors, because it's not like when there's a one off bad event, it's like the bad event has happened over a period of time. So, like me in that role as a stripper getting sexually assaulted over a period of, you know, like, a year and various other things that have happened. So I am a lot better, but triggers are stored in your body. So as much as rationally, I understand that I'm safe. There will be certain things that will bring me back. And when something is triggering, it's like you go through a time portal and all of a sudden I've gone through an Alice in Wonderland tunnel and I'm back 20 years ago. And so it does happen. I think one of the times when it happened. that really stood out to me was it was in a workshop. It was a corporate workshop and we're doing this stuff to like develop as leaders and empower ourselves and stuff. We had to do tests of like trust with our partners. So like basically falling back on someone and I'm like trying to clench a fist and someone tries to open a fist. And that it was like the unexpected touching, watching other people, like getting really into it and stuff. And I just started freaking out internally. And I just felt like my whole body was on fire. And I was like, I had to ask the workshop facilitator, like, how much more touching stuff is there going to be? Because it was just too much for me. I just couldn't at that point. And that was a very non trauma informed workshop. That's why it's so important when you're doing this kind of things to really clearly set the expectations of what's going to happen to let people know that they can always step back if it's too much. But if you don't have that, then it can end up feeling very unsafe. I think if those two things had happened, I probably would have felt safe enough to continue in it. But because it was all, I felt blindsided by it. And then I didn't know when it was going to stop. Then it did stop. have like a negative effect on me.

Chris Hudson: 20:40

The episode I mentioned before we were, before we started recording, but Lael Stone's previous episode where we're talking about the inner child, and I think it's incredibly powerful to think about yourself and how you present in some of those situations and which version of yourself through the years you're representing and who turns up there. Basically, we talked about it on the show, but it kind of takes you back. And everyone thinks that childhood's like when you were five or six or eight, but you've got to remember that even by the age of 18, even at that age, your brain isn't totally formed. You're still developing things technically. And according to the law and everything, you're an adult. But actually there's still quite a lot going on at that stage. So I can imagine that would have put you in quite a vulnerable position obviously at the time, but then going back to that time, it's revealing itself through other experiences that you've had. So yeah, wow. You've had it pretty tough. I think it's amazing that you're able to share the story and talk to us a little bit about it. I want to go back to maybe. the transitioning aspect, because obviously it sounds like you're quite comfortable with change. You know, you move to another country, you've done this and that, you change location, San Francisco and Vegas, and then the UK. It's not San Francisco and Vegas, quite a different place over there. Tell us a bit about the transition and the transition of lifestyle and industry and the way in which you're working. Maybe your entry into corporate life a little bit and what your observations were as you went through that process and that sort of experiences.

DeAnna Avis: 21:59

It was really interesting when I got my first corporate role. So arriving here at 19, I got offered two jobs on the same day. One was to be running a coffee shop. And the other one was for this engineering company. And even though that job sounded really boring, cause it was like data entry. I was like, Oh, that sounds boring as hell, but I knew there would be more opportunities because it was a big company. So I went for it and I'm so glad I did. One of the things that I found in corporate was I was never someone to just do the bare minimum. I was always like, okay. I get through it as quickly as I can. Now, what else can I do? So I was always asking for more work and I got a reputation as that person who was always asking for more work. And that just naturally led to progression. So as soon as I could got out of that data entry role, moved into working in the sales side of things, but customer support side of things was helped by the fact that I'm bilingual. So speak Spanish and English. And we were dealing with people across the world. Gosh. I mean, I think that in the customer service role, that was when I really discovered the appetite for working cross functionally because as a customer service person, you are responsible for, you're not responsible for, but you're that interface between the business and the customer, I wasn't going to take that. Approach of, okay, the customer's unhappy. Well, not my problem. I would be that person that would go sit on the desk of the person in supply chain and be like, when is this part going to come in? This person needs this right now. So I was making those connections. And then, so as I started to do that more and more, it was also bringing to light systemic things that we needed to improve. So it wasn't just about one person chasing every individual thing, but it's like, what can we do to make this more connected up? So that naturally led to me taking on a business analysis role, becoming responsible for the sales operations and basically doing the, the Process mapping, working between the IT department. So like developing systems to support the processes that we need to deliver the outcomes for customers. So that was how I got into that. We acquired a company in France, which was amazing. So then again, when you're bringing two companies together, there's different cultures. There's different processes. I was going to say violent, but it wasn't violent, but the reaction to it was violent because you know, France, they don't take things lying down, so they didn't like being acquired. They had hung basically an effigy of the CEO. Hung him, like made a puppet of him. So they were really, really, really upset at being taken over. And I was this person that was kind of responsible for helping build that bridge between like their sales team, our sales operations team and theirs. And so I found that my multicultural background helped me quite a lot then because I was seen as kind of like a neutral person. Party, just because I knew how to straddle different cultures. And so I just really kind of went native, spent a lot of time in France with them, was their advocate. And I think that that helps so much with change is just asking more questions to understand more deeply the other person's perspective, because people are very rarely trying to be obstructive. They're more often trying to be understood. And the more misunderstood we feel, the more frustrated we feel, the harder it is to change. So understanding is really the key to unlocking collaboration. So anyways, we did that acquisition and then just led a number of, uh, had the opportunity to lead a number of global projects and it was amazing because I loved working across cultures, learning about the different processes, helping everyone to find the way to the common goal rather than being fixated on the means to getting there.

Chris Hudson: 25:10

It takes a certain type of intrapreneur maybe. I mean it takes a certain type of intrapreneur to tune into some of those dynamics in the way that you've described. I think it's great that you've been able to see what's going on. Not everyone would see that and then obviously find a harmonious way through. That sounded like it was pretty tense. If there was an effigy being hung outside the CEO doesn't want to come to work because he's worried there's a death threat or something. And obviously you're not from England or France, so you're kind of putting yourself right in the middle of that too. So I think that shows a lot of determination and courage. I mean, that's, that's amazing.

DeAnna Avis: 25:42

Yeah, I do like a good challenge. I love it. And the other thing is like, I've always felt that we have a lot of responsibility for making our own opportunities. I think that a lot of people, because the process is that you apply for a job and you get it, they kind of are frustrated because there's not the job openings that they want. And actually what I've found is that by Getting in tune with what you're really good at and where the opportunities are for, basically, where's the gaps between what people need. You can do what you want even within the scope of, quite often I was doing a different job from what my job title said and then it morphed into something else. Whereas I think we limit ourselves and say, I'm not going to do that until I get a pay rise, until I have this job title. And so I think it's kind of interesting because some people don't want to give more to the company before they have that. But I have found that it can be very, very satisfying to find where you can grow. Just continually be seeking your growth and know that the opportunities can be shaped by you. The amount of times I had kind of job roles made for me, I think, was because I had proved that there was a need for that. I have this kind of mantra, don't ask for permission to do the right thing. If there's something that is not on the process list but you know it's the right thing to do, prove that it's the right thing to do and that's how you get the buy in instead of sitting and waiting for someone else to come to that conclusion.

Chris Hudson: 26:53

People say ask for forgiveness rather than permission sometimes but there's a lot of permission based culture and you're just playing the waiting game in a lot of roles. You think people are noticing what you're doing but you could be waiting two years for your promotion or your next pay review or whatever it is and nobody's really thinking about it. and thinking about you and you think that they are and that can be incredibly frustrating. I've definitely been caught up in that situation a few times where I just think that people should be appreciating me for what I'm doing and I'm doing all this amazing stuff but unless you're getting that feedback you're not actually sure that that's what they're thinking so yeah it can be a tough one.

DeAnna Avis: 27:27

Yeah, and there's a mix, right? Because it's like, you don't want to be over giving and not get the appreciation for it. I mean, it can be so soul destroying to not be appreciated. So I think that that's kind of where mentorship links into it as well. So it's like, do those things, stretch yourself, give as much as you can of your own talents and gifts to support your growth and the company's growth. And also find senior stakeholders who can help support you and help you navigate that, because there is a political aspect to it. to it as well. Not even political, but just cultural. Sometimes we don't know how to walk that path if we've not been there before. So I find mentorship is such a beautiful thing because there are people who have walked that path before who are often so happy to give support. And even if it's just a half hour once a month with someone, that's the thing that really helped me was finding, okay, who's the senior leader I really want to learn from? Not my line manager, but who's someone that I see as a, Like a stakeholder that has something to admire or that can help me or is where I want to be heading and asking them to be my mentor and just developing that and they will help you navigate. It's about connections. Basically your progression is about the strength of your connections, your network, and I found that it wasn't then reliant on one thing. What did my line manager think of me? I was held by the support of those connections that I'd made.

Chris Hudson: 28:36

Yeah, yeah, amazing. I mean, that can go a long way, obviously, in helping augment, accelerate your career. You get the right people, then it can feel like you're protected. It's like having a family member or just somebody like, really look out for you. I feel that that can in itself feel really empowering for a lot of people. I think having a great boss or a great manager is a good thing for people to aim for. Not something that you can typically control, some of the time anyway. I mean, you can obviously go for an interview and then decide whether or not you want to take the job. Sometimes, you know whether they're a Good egg or whatever, they're bad news and you can kind of suss that out but have you got any strategies for knowing like good from the bad and the ugly when it comes to that sort of thing when you're when you're reading people?

DeAnna Avis: 29:16

Yeah, well, I mean, I definitely have had experiences of, of all of them. I feel like a manager's role is to provide healthy pressure so that we grow. I don't know if you ever had any teachers in school that were just so lax that the class was out of control and no one was learning and no one took them seriously. There are some managers like that who just want to be liked, and that is actually not conducive to people's growth either. So I would say it's not in that extreme. And then, and then it's also not the other big red flag for me is someone is over controlling or over critical, if they are watching if your team's icon is yellow or green and jumping on you if you're not online. And the kind of micromanagement, which I think, thankfully, we are moving a lot away from, but it's still out there because the old school mentality hasn't gone away completely. I would say that micromanagement is a humongous red flag. Basically, I want someone to empower me and get out of my way, to give me big stretching goals or support me in finding big stretching goals, and just to be there to support me if I need help getting there, but not someone who's sat breathing down my neck

Chris Hudson: 30:12

think so. I think it's having a relationship with discomfort in a way that is for good. You can fear things for good and you might think of it as intimidating, but often your comfort zone is just your comfort zone. You don't feel stretched at all and then you, you feel apathetic towards that. You might end up just wanting to leave because you've got nothing to aim at. No progress, nothing unsettles you. And obviously in your experiences, I feel like your formative experiences, despite the fact that they caused you all that trauma and what I'm hearing anyway, it feels like that may have set you up for certain resilience when it came to the world of work and nothing would be as bad as that. So you were just looking at all the positive stuff that was coming. And obviously you got on a bit of a chain of events. then headed you in the positive direction, which I think is fantastic. There's maybe something to be said for whatever it is out there for the people that are listening to the show. If they've had a negative experience and they've had trauma in whichever way in their lives in the past, that that can be an incredible source of strength. Do you think that can be channeled for good?

DeAnna Avis: 31:11

I think it can, because I feel like I had this like economy of like a positive attitude, positive mental, not mental health, because I had mental health, but basically my parents gave me so much love, even within unstable environment, that I kind of knew that I was worthwhile, that they always believed that I was smart. So I feel like one of the things that I see with trauma survivors is if they don't have that foundation in believing that they're smart, that they are worthwhile and that their contributions matter, then it can be very hard for them to get over it. Whereas I feel because I had that, then I was able to overcome that trauma. And so I think that there would be a certain amount of healing, of course, required to get to that point where you can have that resilient and positive attitude. It's not a case of just saying like, just think positive and law of attraction and all of that. I think there's a privilege that comes from having known that you're wanted in this world. So for example, um, I know some people who are very senior leaders and as children were not wanted, you know, ended up in the care system in various ways were very clear that parents didn't plan to have them or whatever. And that can really affect their self esteem. And that kind of thing can drive people in a positive way. So I've seen people become bullying managers and it becomes like a kind of narcissistic tendency to overcome and to prove that kind of toxic way that is reinforcing those negative beliefs. So it can take a number of forms. And I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is a privilege to have had basically positive elements to my upbringing. And so I'm not judging anyone if they are in difficulty and find it difficult to be positive. Because being able to be positive in itself is not always within everyone's reach. And I think sometimes they need extra support to be able to get there as well, which is where, you know, obviously therapy and healing comes in.

Chris Hudson: 32:44

It's really hard. It's really hard. I mean, I think that when you think about what's expected of anyone during your average day of work and the situations that people can get thrown into, it just feels like any of those things could trigger something like we were talking about just before, but it's not always within your control. You're going out and you've designed the perfect day and you're walking through that day and it's all on your terms because it never is. I feel like the world is getting more complex like that. in terms of navigating where you take things, the decisions that you make. And also we feel the pressure of those decisions. Like we don't know whether the left turn was right or the right turn was better. Yeah, it's kind of like you're just doing your best. I think we have to accept that in a way. Like it's not something that we can just design and make perfect because it's an imperfect world.

DeAnna Avis: 33:27

Yeah, totally. And those imperfections are opportunities for us. Like, it would be a very, very boring world. We would hate it if we got everything we wanted and everything right. It would be so boring. With my clients and one of the things that I've found is really helpful for myself is when we feel imposter syndrome, quite often that imposter syndrome is exactly why you are needed there because that shows that basically that difference. is a gap that's not currently fulfilled. So, like, I've spoken to people who have master's degrees and think, oh, but I haven't got a master's degree in the right thing. Well, you're bringing different thinking because you haven't got what everyone else in that role has got, or because you haven't got a degree, or because of whatever thing that you feel is making you inferior is actually your edge. If we take ourselves out of ourselves, we quite often, we speak to ourselves in ways that we wouldn't let. anyone else speak to someone else. And so if we find ourselves being hard on ourselves, is to think, okay, well, how would I stand up to a bully if they were doing this to someone else? And then just realizing that we can also do that for ourselves. Cause quite often we collude with our own inner bully. So there's actually, it sounds kind of weird, but I think that it mindset wise, and this is something again, from schema therapy, it helps to kind of pull apart the different aspects of our body. of our mind because there's not just one you, right? There's all these different voices coming in. There's like the parent voice, there's various authority figures that are replaying. There's also the child reaction that gets triggered. When we hear something in our head, it's like, where is that coming from? Is that coming from the healthy adult me? Is that coming from the triggered child who is fearing like a reaction from an authority figure? Is that the punitive parent who's telling me off? Like who is actually saying that and what's actually true there? That's

Chris Hudson: 35:01

it, that's really well explained, thank you. I think there's, it's almost coming to terms with our understanding of power, and when there's power, power shifts between one schema or persona, one of your own personas or another, but it feels like you need to understand that a little bit to know what's going on. I think we all have a different relationship with that. You can either Observe it as something you're really aware, self aware that you can do that. Sometimes you just step into the roles that you don't want to and it's just more of a subconscious thing, right? We've all been influenced by people that have been in positions of power and have just abused that in some way and they've misused their power to kind of create a situation that hasn't been right. It hasn't sat well with them. comfortably with you in that situation but you felt powerless to be able to do anything so you've gone along with it hoping that just by going along with it it'll just resolve and then you can move on but actually that in some way has imprinted on you so you still got to pick up the next time it happens you've still got to pick things up in a different way so relationships with power are really challenging I think.

DeAnna Avis: 36:00

They are, and I've got to be careful how I say this because obviously I don't want to name anybody, but there have been tricky situations that I have experienced and it's also knowing how can you actually get out of that because if there is a really toxic dynamic with a boss, the HR department colluding with them, or will they actually believe you? So sometimes people can feel quite alone because they, Are scared that if they go for help, it will be counted against them and then it will make their situation even worse. I would say that there's not an easy answer to that, but I would say that sometimes it's a case of knowing when is it the right time to get out. You can't change someone else, but you don't have to be in a situation that is toxic to you. So if you decide that your boss is toxic, like, can you get transferred to a different part of the organization? You don't have to say, I want to get a job transfer because, you know, my boss is toxic. a narcissist, you can just try and explore different ways, find a way out, because I think that people can rub off on us and we don't want to become like them or have that effect too much. So I think it's just always worthwhile doing what we can to empower ourselves to be around people that support us.

Chris Hudson: 37:00

I think that's the hard part. There's a lot about work and life. That does go unsaid, and I think we've had enough conversation in this chat. In your day to day, like, you don't get to talk about everything, and you wouldn't have the time to either. Some of this stuff is important. People don't talk about pay, gender pay gap. There's a lot of stuff going on in the world of work that isn't known about, but still happens, and it's really bad stuff as well. Like, if you think about men abusing their positions of power, and, you know, discrimination and harassment, and all the things that are happening every day, and nobody knows about it. So, the conversation with mental health, diversity has definitely involved in the workplace and it feels like that's still taking baby steps but it's heading in some direction. It feels like some of this other stuff around what's right and wrong about work and what needs to be done is still being brushed under the carpet, don't you think?

DeAnna Avis: 37:47

There's been a big shift, I mean I remember when I first started working in the sales office, one of the sales guys had like basically like a half naked picture of a lady up on his desk barrier and it was just like the banter and stuff because I mean that was quite some time ago and it's just how much things have shifted now to creating at least a more. On the face of it, a more equitable environment. And yeah, of course there are those things that are unseen. Like you say, the pay gap. And I think one of the things that really needs to happen with that, as well as the ethnicity pay gap. I tried to do this when I was in corporate still, cause we were just starting to do reporting on gender pay. Quite often companies say we're very diverse. Okay. Where are you diverse? Because if you're looking at your operations people and they're all coming from a certain background, but then your senior leadership. Is all white men and women, then that's not diversity. There can be a lot of resistance to that because people don't want to kind of pull the rug out from under their own feet. There's the fear of the lack of power and also just the squeamishness around talking about it. And that's one thing that I have found, especially here in England compared to the States. Because in the U S everyone is from somewhere different, right? So one of the first things you ask someone when you meet them is, Hey, what's your ethnic background? And then you kind of share stories like, Oh, my grandparents were from here and dah, dah, dah. But here it's like, okay, we're just not going to mention it. And it's all looked like considered impolite to, we're not going to look at the ethnic pay gap. It's rude to think about that, you know? So I think getting that as an, as an agenda and having more transparency would be really, really important. But there's so many aspects to it, right? And not everything can be solved with a report because of my background, really interested in class because it's like, okay, sometimes you have people from a certain ethnic background who have like a lot of class privilege or educational privilege or whatever. And so I think that there's also that people from single parent families who have had lack of educational advantage, who don't have degrees, like how are they supported? So some of my work, I do some diversity and inclusion. consulting as well. It's about how you understand the employee experience through the various facets of, so if you're reporting on all of those different things, how neurodivergent people feel, all of those things, because you have to look at the whole matrix of it. It's not just one access. Like, okay, we've got gender equality now and everything's fine.

Chris Hudson: 39:44

Yeah, no, I agree. It's often thought of as a priority, right? You can do one of those things well, and then the rest will get around to as well. There's a bit of a, let's do gender pay gap. And there's a lot of publicity around that or international women's day comes up. And then there are efforts. That's around that particular topic. You can't just switch a light and everything's fixed. What are you seeing as being some of the main things to fix within organizational or corporate kind of environments? Do you think?

DeAnna Avis: 40:08

Well, one of the things that is a bugbear recently is this whole, like, kind of push to get people back in the office. And I've seen a lot of that, where culturally people are trying to manage, how do you increase performance? And they fall back on this. There's this tendency to fall back on needing to see people physically in person, which is very at odds with Gen Z want to work. It's very at odds with how parents want to work. It's just basically all of us like that. Pandora's box has been opened. We've realized we don't like working in the office or we don't want to be forced. into the office. And yet the traditional style is still trying to push us back in. So I feel like that one is still a biggie in terms of how can you empower people to perform and have a company culture when people are disconnected. And how do you avoid veering between forcing people to do something and then making it so that they're so disconnected that there's no cohesion.

Chris Hudson: 40:52

There's definitely some isolation creeping in. It works in extremes, right? You've got a minority group that's basically in the office. It was kind of a mismatch of all the different people that just think it's okay to go in and they won't. be there and then a whole load of people. So it's kind of creating that lack of harmony in both senses. You've got a group of people on their own, working at home, doing what they want to do. It suits their personal life and their preferences. But obviously there's a downside to that and that they feel disconnected and they can't do everything from there. So it's a tough one. Still wanting to solve. Everything accelerated obviously through the lockdown time and COVID, but it wasn't really, Set up in a way that would be resolved in a lasting way. The companies that did come out, obviously to put policies out, right. You can work at home for the rest of your life and for the rest of your career. Those sorts of companies, some of them have taken steps back to say, no, you've got to come in three days a week. That's not great.

DeAnna Avis: 41:42

Yeah. And again, that's being focused too much on the process and not the outcome. I think if you have a really clear and compelling mission of what you're there for, what you're trying to achieve, and people actually believe in that, they will fucking do it. If they're not doing it, you've got a culture problem. You don't have a people sitting on at a desk problem. It all comes back to brand from my point of view, because brand is like what your company is there for, what it stands for. Stands for how that is conveyed through the culture. And so if you've got an issue with people not performing or not feeling connected, then I think you'll need to look at your core of your purpose. What is your company's purpose? What in that is not resonating with people and working on on it from the inside out?

Chris Hudson: 42:17

And is it contingent on people being together, and doing it face to face? I don't. Maybe it is.

DeAnna Avis: 42:23

It's probably not either or because there's some things that it is, but I think that what we've got is kind of like a half assed solution where they're kind of telling people to go in a few days. But what happens is because everyone's only going in a few days, when you go in the office is a quarter full. And so it feels pointless. So it's like, how can you actually have high impact in person things rather than just doing it? By rote, what are you actually doing it for? So I don't have the answer for that, but I think the answer is not to force people to come in just because you think it should be done. I think it's about listening to people about having really clear and measurable goals and continuing to work on like basically your employee experience and your customer experience and listening to what your customers are telling you, the issues, what your employees are telling you, and then working at it from that rather than arbitrary solutions based on where, where people's bum is located.

Chris Hudson: 43:13

Oh yeah, totally. Or just based on the way it always was, which is this kind of social construct of going to work in an office, which is, it was set up whenever it was set up 100 years ago. Longer, probably. But yeah, that's really cool. I think one of the things I wanted to ask you, just as we kind of head towards the finish, is really a lot of entrepreneurs listen to this show and in your experience, you've done a lot of things. And, It'd be great just to hear your perspective on anything in the way of advice, but also in terms of attitude or outlook or anything that you'd like to share with the listeners around what would help them in some way.

DeAnna Avis: 43:44

Yeah, I would say, first of all, seek inspiration, right? Because action comes from inspiration. So find what really, really inspires you. That's what being an entrepreneur is about is following your trail of inspiration. And I think once you're connected to that, it's basically. Finding the how, right? If you have a compelling enough why, you can find a how to get there. If you're finding it hard to get there, it might be that your why is not compelling enough. It might be that maybe the role is not inspiring you or where you think what goals you've set yourself are not inspiring you. So I would say really, really tune into that first of all. And then I would say the other things are once you've got that inspiration, that really clear and compelling vision, I recommend basically A lot of self led learning can be very helpful. There's so much kind of we're fed. You need this course, you need the certification. You fucking don't. When I was doing that global customer experience role, like I had just downloaded like reams and reams and reams of white papers. I was determined to read every single thing out there on customer experience. And I just read a ton of books. So basically find what is your modality of learning. Do you like podcasts? Do you like reading? Do you like taking online courses? But like, find what works for you. Don't think you need to jump through a specific hoop or have certain letters after your name because you really, really don't. Follow your passion. Just go for it. Do it. Something that is so fun that you would do it like after hours as well. Like that, it is quite sad, but I would be reading customer experience stuff in my spare time because I was like, Like so on fire for that. So find the thing that you're so on fire for that you just want to do it. You want to learn about it. So there's that you don't need more letters after your name, find allies in the workplace, find other people who get it. Cause there's also workplaces have a certain culture, but there as cultures are shifting, people shift within that. And it's like a school of fish turning around one by one. So if you find those little fish that are swimming the other direction, before you know it, there's more and more. So it's just pay attention to those fish. That is. Swimming the direction that you want to be going and find more and more of them rather than being frustrated about the ones that are swimming the wrong direction because they will come around. Visualizing what you want your role to be and doing that as much as you can within the scope of what you're doing now. Continuing to ask, how can I do more? That's it. If you're doing something you love, it will feel good to do more and then it will be recognized. So that those would be my tips.

Chris Hudson: 45:53

Yeah, amazing. Incredibly uplifting and a really like positive way to end the show. And I can't thank you enough for just coming off of the chat and being so open and honest in discussing all of your experiences, but it's just like the most amazing stories. So, and inspiring to, to a lot of people that will be listening to the show as well. So thank you so much. If people want to get in touch, they want to ask a question, how they find you. Do you want to answer a question? Where would they go?

DeAnna Avis: 46:17

Yeah, certainly. So please feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. So I'm Deanna Avis on LinkedIn or on Instagram. Just message me there. I would love to chat with any fellow ambitious misfits. If you have questions about intrapreneurship or entrepreneurship or anything like that, or just want to say hi, thank you so much for having me here for helping me share this story, for listening and for giving me this opportunity. And thank you to everyone listening as well.

Chris Hudson: 46:40

Thanks so much, Deanna. Thank you