The Company Road Podcast
In this podcast we’ll be exploring what it takes to change a company. Taking the big steps, or the smaller steps in between.
This one’s for the intrapreneurs. You’ll be getting to know some big, brave and darn right outrageous personalities, luminaries, pioneers of business and hearing what they’ve done to fix the thorniest of problems within organisations.
The Company Road Podcast
E66 Neurodivergence Unplugged: Transforming Work for Neurodivergent Professionals
Ani Møller, founder of Ani Møller Coaching, discusses the growing awareness of neurodivergence in the workplace. Ani shares her deeply personal journey of being diagnosed with autism and ADHD at the age of 41, which reshaped her understanding of past challenges and led her to a new purpose: helping neurodivergent professionals own their identities, navigate their careers, and thrive both personally and professionally.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
- Ani’s personal journey and discovery of being autistic and ADHD in her 40s.
- Challenges neurodivergent professionals face, from burnout to workplace stigma.
- How coaching helps individuals leverage their strengths and navigate executive dysfunction.
- Practical strategies for leaders to support neurodivergent team members.
- The role of universal accommodations in fostering inclusive workplaces.
- Misconceptions about neurodivergence and how to combat them.
- The importance of neuro-affirming workplace cultures.
- Tips for creating safety and thriving environments for all team members.
- Disclosure of neurodivergence and the factors individuals should consider.
Key links
About our guest
Ani Møller (they/she) is a Business Transformation Consultant and Neurodivergent Coach based in Melbourne, Australia. They have worked on transformational programs of work for Myer, Jetstar, Qantas, University of Canberra, ActewAGL, Tourism New Zealand, and Māori Television.
Ani was an executive director running a digital agency and consulting to corporate Australia they found out they were Autistic and ADHD in their 40s. After their diagnosis they studied to be an ADHD Life Coach.
Ani now provides a strengths-based coaching practice to neurodivergent people from all walks of life, to help build neuro-affirming lives and workplaces.
They help people work through the change that comes with wanting a better life for themselves, both professionally and personally.
Ani’s led projects, departments and companies and now helps other neurodivergent people learn how to navigate corporate life and transform their lives.
About our host
Our host, Chris Hudson, is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.
Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.
Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally.
For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at https://companyroad.co/podcast/
Alright hello everyone and welcome back to the next episode of the Company Road Podcast and we're going to go deeper into the things in this episode that maybe we have done before. Like we always go deep from the things that are in the business world in ways that can hopefully help and inspire intrapreneurs to evolve their working practices in some way. But in today's episode, we're going to go deeper into the topics of identity, specifically around neurodiversity. And there's been a surge in awareness and conversation around neurodivergence in recent times. And it's far beyond just talking to mental health or the need for well being. But neurodiversity is actually finally being taken more seriously as it should with concerns over anxiety sweeping through personal, family, and work life. So we can often find ourselves warring with ourselves, overthinking, feeling overwhelmed, and there are a lot of things that neurodiversity, I think, in understanding it a little bit more deeply, we'll hopefully shed some light on some of these topics and help people out both in navigating the world of work themselves, but also in working with neurodiversity within your teams and also with within other members of your team as well. So it's a huge topic that we'd like to unpack today, and I can think of no one better to shed some light on the challenges and the topic than Ani Møller founder of Ani Møller coaching. And Ani welcome to the show.
Ani Møller:Thank you so much for having me.
Chris Hudson:Thank you. And Ani, your business supports neurodivergent, disabled, queer and transgender people to own their identity and express themselves authentically in some ways. So I'd love to hear more about that, but we're going to start to maybe unpack the conversation a little bit through your own story. And yeah, it'd be great to just hear about your experience and maybe walk us through how you've ended up doing what you're doing.
Ani Møller:Well, I spent most of my career working in the digital advertising and technology industry. I was an executive director at a fairly large sized agency here in Melbourne. And like many people in the pandemic, I had a lot of time to self reflect and discover that I was autistic and had ADHD. And that was a real surprise to me. I had no idea. I was 41 when I got diagnosed and it really contextualized a lot of the struggles that I had had throughout my career and my personal life. And also explain some pretty severe burnouts that I had had in a repeating cycle that I didn't really understand why I was having those.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. And maybe introduce the work that you now do in relation to that. It's obviously very different to what you were doing before. And you've now got a strengths based coaching practice. Maybe tell us a bit about that and how you're working with different people, neurodivergent people.
Ani Møller:Yeah, it's funny cause it's different, but it's also the same. So I spent most of my job coaching people. So whether that was inside teams as a scrum master earlier on in my career, then going into working to coach new leaders and emerging leaders in the business. And then after that I left and did a business transformation consulting, which I know you know all about and kept doing the coaching on the side So I was doing part time coaching and as I know, we've spoken about, I had a stroke last year, which has made it difficult to record this podcast. But that stroke gave me a bit of a kick up the bum to say, Oh, okay, maybe this is something that you should be exploring full time. And now I work with professionals, all neurodivergent professionals, mostly autistic and ADHD, but they have lots of different conditions from dyslexia, bipolar, schizoaffective disorder, you name it, I work with them and really the goal for me is to help them free their really creative minds from the corporate chaos and a lot of these hierarchies that we find ourselves in but don't necessarily know how to explore so that they can thrive at work and ultimately thrive in their personal life as well.
Chris Hudson:I think the word coach obviously takes a number of different meanings depending on where you apply it but in your experience where do you seem to be focusing the most as a coach, do you feel?
Ani Møller:I would say most of my clients are trying to come out of pretty severe burnouts, senior leaders in the Australian corporate industry. They tend to cluster in certain industries. I have a lot of clients who come from a background of. advertising, marketing, technology, they probably see an alignment with my history there, but then also a lot of people working in law and finance fields and to be honest there's a lot, we're everywhere but a lot of it is helping people to find the courage to take the next step in their career or to be able to do their job more effectively in the way that they wish that they could and that they know that they should be able to But for whatever reason they're having struggles that they can't quite work through themselves
Chris Hudson:hmm. Can you think of any stories that you're happy to share that bring to life that burnout situation? anything that kind of sheds a light on the situations where those neurodivergent people may find themselves Just in case People that are listening to the show, they might want to think about what to look out for really. Is there anything there that springs to mind?
Ani Møller:Well, I'll talk about my own experience cause that's the easiest one to talk about. But I would find myself Getting very, very stressed out at work. I thought I was just a stressy person but what that looked like was I would start snapping at people and that I felt like I was being a person that I didn't want to be, and that I was sure that I wasn't that person, but for whatever reason, That's who I was. I would get very flustered. I would have a lot of like, I would get flushed in meetings when I would start to get really overwhelmed I would sweat a lot in meetings. I would just find myself getting really sweaty. Sometimes I just didn't know what to say. And I found myself working. Like my life was Monday to Friday, work, come home, hopefully eat, collapse in front of Netflix, and then Saturday, Sunday, sleeping and recovering. And then I did that on a cycle for over a decade and it got to a point where there was one particular very stressful project that I was working on. And I started, having really high blood pressure. I started seeing stars in my eyes, like I would stand up from my desk and suddenly start to feel really dizzy. I would be crying in the toilets a lot. I didn't really know why I was crying in the toilets, just something would happen at work and I'd have to just go and I was just very upset and then came a time where it just, I was in a meeting and my brain just said no, and I just had this horrible feeling. It was like a pit of dread and overwhelm, but I can't be here. I can't do this. And it was something I really, really wanted to do and I didn't understand what was going on. And that was when I had to get signed off on stress leave.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Wow. I mean that's pretty hard. Probably to talk about now. Is it hard to talk about now? Or do you feel that you've had enough time? No, it's not.
Ani Møller:I've done some trauma therapy.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, okay. I think hearing the story really does bring that to life. But as an observer and a listener to that story can you think about through those experiences, was there any support available to you That felt like it was available or, did you feel like you had to navigate that all by yourself?
Ani Møller:This is literally why I became a coach because I did feel like I had to navigate it myself. I saw of course I called up the EAP from my company. I was talking to my manager. They didn't really know how to support me because there were no words to describe what I was doing. It was just called burnout or stress, but actually what I was experiencing was related to being autistic and having ADHD. And so that realization that came years later, that came probably about three or four years after this particular burnout that I'm talking about. So I really had to navigate it alone. I did see an organizational psychologist that was very, very helpful but a lot of my recovery came after my diagnosis.
Chris Hudson:ADHD and autism, I think some people know some things about both of those but maybe in relation to your experience, could you describe, through What you were just saying the differences in a way and how they were presenting from ADHD to autism. And obviously how together that, what does that mean together if you've got both?
Ani Møller:Okay, big question. So, I mean, I guess the crux of autism is that there is some sort of social communication disability. There is a difference there and for me, that is being very, very literal. That is not being able to read in between the lines. I often didn't understand jokes and would just kind of, I'll go, just move on and just go on to the next thing. So that difficulty of not being able to read in between the lines was quite hard when you're working in a corporate career. In many ways, it was quite helpful because I was a project manager, so being very, very literal was very helpful. so I think that's why it took me so long to get diagnosed, because I was working in a career that kind of needed those autistic skills and strengths but I did really struggle with social communication. Another thing is having a flat effect. So my face doesn't move in the same way as a neurotypical person. Commonly known as resting bitch face. I would get very, very Disregulated if I didn't eat and drink in regular periods I used to say I get I would get hungry but what I didn't realize is that actually I had Nervous system challenge where my brain wasn't receiving the signals from my stomach and I wouldn't realize that I was hungry until it was way beyond hunger and I think the other part of Autism is around Having a very, very hypersensitive nervous system. Now, that's not all autistic people. That you can either go one way or the other, hyposensitive or hypersensitive. Mine was very, very hypersensitive. So, lights, sounds. The feeling of a tiny little pebble in my shoe. I really, really related to the fairy tale of Princess and the Pea. And I didn't understand why. I was like, yeah, I really get that. That would be super annoying. so for me, that's probably the autism aspect of things. When it comes to ADHD, my ADHD isn't really visible to other people. so I have never lost a bag. I've never lost a purse or a phone or anything like that. I don't lose things. I was never late to things because I was using my anxiety to always be early. And so, Those common things that you would see in someone who has ADHD weren't that, But when I was working, especially in high school, I was working on my photography portfolio, to go to university and do a photography, degree, I could not finish it. I stopped and started it three times to the point that I'd actually run out of time and I couldn't submit it to go and do that. So my ADHD has been more in finishing things. and I guess there's also with the hyperactivity that you often see in the young boys who are super hyperactive and you're like, Oh yeah, but I've got ADHD. My hyperactivity is in my mind. And so I got diagnosed as having anxiety, but my anxiety was actually my hyperactive ADHD in my brain.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Thank you for outlining both of those areas. It sounds incredibly complex and a hyperactive brain, I'm sure we'll think about these things a lot and a lot and a lot. You're probably going over a lot in your mind. Even just talking about it, which feels like it could quickly become overwhelming, but maybe taking a step back and thinking about some of the common challenges that neurodivergent individuals would face. in the workplace, along the lines of what you're describing, but what comes across in your view as being a frequent thing or a phenomenon in the workplace that would trigger, one or the other or would need to be worked out in some way?
Ani Møller:I think thinking about autism, it's really common for people to be overwhelmed by the sounds, the smells, the textures, all of the interruptions, just everything going on around them if they are autistic in the workplace and maybe don't realize that they are. For me, the fluorescent lights would give me a migraine. The smells of someone cooking fish in the microwave would send me into a little way. It's always fish, isn't it? It's always fish. It's always fish. And it's hard to describe what it's like to someone who doesn't understand it. but there's a really great scene in the, I can't remember, what's that Australian show with Chloe Hayden? Do you know the show that I'm talking about? It's on Netflix. I think it's Cartman. Oh yeah,
Chris Hudson:yeah. I can't, yeah. I know the one you mean, but I can't remember either. Yeah, there's a really great scene
Ani Møller:where she is in the restaurant with her girlfriend, and that scene, they really encapsulated what it's like to experience this hyper sensitive nervous system but the challenge with that is by having your nervous system assaulted all the time, it drains your battery really, really quickly. And so you get to the end of the day and you're just like a zombie and you have no energy to do anything because your energy has been depleted by everything that's in the office.
Chris Hudson:And I'd imagine it's through the day as well. If a meeting didn't end up playing out as you thought or if you're in a situation where the battery just gets depleted faster than you were expecting it to because something unexpected comes up or the situation the environment might be might not be right then that can happen too presumably so did you find yourself were there any coping mechanisms i know you've talked about the crying in the toilets but were there any other ways that you found that you could manage it at the moment
Ani Møller:So I didn't know that I didn't breathe a lot. So I would often You know, like I'd be holding my breath and I didn't realize that I would do it. And I'd be like, I'd have everything clenched up. And so I've had to learn how to breathe. Which sounds like something that you don't need to learn how to do. But at the same time as when I was going through this intense, stressful period where I was crying in the toilets a lot, I would have to, I knew that I was heightened and I would have to calm myself down. And I did that through a lot of breathing, started learning mindfulness. Not all mindfulness works for people who have ADHD, but there are certain practices that will work where really the focus is about just focusing on one small thing rather than trying to clear your mind. Because if you have a hyperactive mind, you're not going to clear your mind and then you're going to think you're doing it wrong and then there's a cycle that's going to go around.
Chris Hudson:Is the one small thing in relation to something that you're thinking about? Or is it, I'm going to notice that fly on the wall and just watch that for a minute. Is it that kind of thing?
Ani Møller:Yeah, I like to think of anything that is physical in a way so that could be, and it's thinking about your five senses. So, something that you can hear, something you can see, something you can taste, all those sorts of things. I know that script that I just ran through, some people will be familiar with that. That script doesn't actually work for me so much, but for me it might be like I've got my Apple watch here with these little circles. For me it would be just like trying to get back into my body and just focusing on the outline of one circle or trying to just feel the fingertips on my fingers or just focusing on a very small sensation, focusing on one noise that's very far away. to try and get back into my body because I was often in a state of dissociation at work.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, that really puts it into perspective. And also taking maybe another step back, there are common misconceptions around neurodiversity that do exist in the workplace. And there are stereotypes associated with it and they're represented through the TV, if it's Chloe Hayden or if it's this or that people have an understanding based on their own experience. But around those common misconceptions what are some of the things that you're seeing there as being inadequately either represented or discussed in some way.
Ani Møller:I think probably the main misconception is that it's something that organizations can avoid. because Neurodivergence is so common, it is at least 1 in 5, and the numbers are growing. and given the psychosocial hazards law, which has been rewritten into law a little bit more clearly business owners do have mandate to be doing, to be looking into that. But I think at the same time there is a misconception that it is too much work. to do these things, but a lot of the policies and practices that help neurodivergent people, many of them are free and many of them don't take a lot of effort to implement and they also help everybody, not just neurodivergent people. They make your business better. They make your culture better.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. And have you seen that working well in some cases?
Ani Møller:Simple things maybe it's not as simple as I'm about to say, but having meeting agendas in meetings is a really, really great way to reduce the anxiety that neurodivergent people experience in the workplace. No one likes to get a meeting at 4. 30 on a Friday, that says, quick catch up because that can send a lot of ADHDers into a bit of a tailspin because they're like, what's going on, what's going on? But having meeting agendas can make that a lot clearer. I think things like flexible working, being able to work from home, obviously there's a lot of conversation around that in the media at the moment, but for me, having the access to flexible working and to be able to work from home has been truly life changing.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, that's a big difference, isn't it? Where you can have your own environment and work within that and have some level of control, take back some control. It feels like the office environment is, it's sort of set out for everybody, right? But it's not right for everybody as we've been talking about. I think that can definitely help. There was a point in your notes just around laziness. Did you want to touch on that?
Ani Møller:So there, there's a great book by Dr. Devon Price called Laziness Doesn't Exist, uh, which is something that I really try to work on with my clients because a lot of them have these ingrained messages, usually from childhood, that for whatever reasons, for whatever thing that they're doing, they are being lazy. So if they can't start something, they can't finish something, Maybe they're, they've lost something their desks are disorganised, it's because they're lazy. But the concept of lazy, my experience as a leader, is that people are almost, almost always just trying to do their best and if someone is trying to do their best and for whatever reason they're not succeeding then that means that something is not working well in the way that you're managing them and that there might be alternate things to work on with them. But that concept of people sitting at home, taking the piss, it's not something that I see commonly in the organisations that I work with.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Okay. I think it's assumed, isn't it? It feels like it's right to point it out that it's talked about and almost labeled, but it's not always proven. It's just assumed that people would not do the work and be diligent at times. But I think it's not something that can be proven really either. It's not an issue. It's speculation. It feels like it's unhelpful.
Ani Møller:Well, I mean, when someone is accused of being lazy, and you're a divergent person, it's usually because they are struggling with executive dysfunction. And executive dysfunction is something that can be improved with the right techniques, giving them the skills. So obviously you can't train away a disability but the difference between say someone with ADHD and a neurotypical person is that the way that your executive functions work They just work. So you come out, you can just plan things, you can just change your focus, you can finish a project, it's no problem. For someone with ADHD, these are skills that we have to cognitively learn because they're not natural to us, but that doesn't mean that we aren't able to improve.
Chris Hudson:I think I might just take a sidestep and ask a question just around if you know somebody in your team is neuro diverse how you would go about or what would you say to leaders that are in that situation and how would they, how should they go about managing their team members in a way that is respectful, sensitive, and we'll get the best out of them, do you think?
Ani Møller:I think the main thing is to ask them what it is that they need to thrive and to be their best at work. That can also be a bit of a challenge with that because a lot of neurodivergent people might not know because they may have never felt that they've truly thrived at work and this may be a new thing for them. So I think something that's where universal accommodations come in, which are basically a list of accommodations that you give. to people So that when someone is disclosing that they have a neurodivergent condition, the manager's response isn't always, Oh, okay, tell me what you need. Tell me what you need. Because most of the time, especially if they're newly diagnosed, they're not going to know what they need. And that's going to be overwhelming because now they feel like they have to educate everyone. They've got to go get all the answers. They don't have all the answers. It's stressful. So I think starting with something like that would be helpful. But by focusing on their strengths and using those as a pathway into helping them to be their best. So if someone is really, really great at. say, brainstorming, for example. They're really great at ideas generation. And you've got them doing repetitive admin tasks that are quite boring. That seems to me like that person might be in the wrong role and maybe their job could be restructured in a way to get the best out of their brain and find a way around the things that are part of their disability that are difficult.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, that feels like it would be great. I think that, often the broader practices around performance development, professional development and how your personal development plan in one way or another would be put together. They would focus on the business outcomes, but maybe less so in some cases on the things that you were describing there. So it feels almost zooming into some of that detail and really going into what does this person in my team do particularly well and how can I bring more of that to the fore and give them that environment would be worth considering I think.
Ani Møller:And look, I understand, like business outcomes of business outcomes and it's probably easy for me to say this as a coach. I'm not currently as a business leader trying to implement this inside businesses but I think when it comes to those strengths and those challenges, people aren't machines. And I think sometimes I do see organizations forget that they're actually hiring humans. Instead they think they're hiring resources to just chug away at the task. And while some managers might think, this sounds like too much work. I mean, this is one in five people. This is probably multiple people in your team. So if you are treating that many people in your team in a way that isn't going to work the best for them or the business, why do it? Because it makes neurodivergent people feel like they are failures and also you lose their incredible strengths that could be applied in ways to deliver to those business outcomes.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, definitely. I think that from what you're saying it reminded me of another project that I was doing in the inclusive design space. And it was quite focused on people with particular disabilities and needs in that area and often the majority rules. And it feels like you can either design for the fringe case of those minority groups and how they're represented, or you can design for the whole lot, but it's often swung the way towards the way that, the people without those needs, their needs are often listened to the most. But it feels like if you think about overwhelm and what people within your team might be experiencing in that regard, then you could set up conditions that would allow everyone to manage overwhelm in some way, without it necessarily singling out. the neurodivergent team members and are making it just about them. So it feels like if some of these things were done right in the workplace, that they would actually benefit the whole team. Do you think?
Ani Møller:For sure. And also I think when it comes to certain types of teams, you actually are talking about the whole team. They might not all have formal diagnoses, but they are all neurodivergent. My experience working in creative industries, It is predominantly full of neurodivergent people. Many of those people are only just starting to come to learn about those things. And I think this is why that strengths based practice that is so important. Because if you have people who are ADHD and incredible idea generators, of course, they're going to be ending up, art directors or copywriters or in a partnership doing things like that, or they're going to be a strategist inside an agency. And so if you have a organization that's already structured around those strengths, you might not actually realize that your entire team is neurodivergent. And you should be looking at these sorts of neurodivergent policies anyway.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, I'm curious about that now because I think back to some of my leaders and team environments and you've got to wonder, right? And also leaders, it wouldn't necessarily just be neurodivergent leaders, but you know how you have a bias when you recruit to people that are like minded to you or have a similar outlook in life that a neurodivergent manager or boss might also lean towards People that are similar to that, potentially, I don't know.
Ani Møller:100%. Yeah. That's definitely, that's definitely what I see.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, yeah. I'm not officially diagnosed, but we have it pretty strongly running through our family with our kids and so on. My wife's been diagnosed as well, ADHD, kids of ASD and ADHD, and I know it's obviously in the family, but I think that I gravitate towards certain personality types. I know what draws my energy and I know what I feel I take energy from and the type of people that I take energy from. And the work environment can be quite hard in that respect. It feels like you can't always choose who you work with and that means you just have to get on with it and it does weigh you down. So. I was going to ask, you've done the coaching now for a little while and we've talked a bit about some of the broader things, in relation to those scenarios, but through the work that you're doing now, is there a story of success or something where you feel like the coaching that you're doing has really helped a person within that team environment or in their personal life or in their professional life?
Ani Møller:Many. I'll choose one. So, one of my clients is a lawyer. They own a law firm and they employ a number of other people. They were at a crossroads in their career where they were done. I think I'm done with this law. I think I want to change my job. I don't know what I'm going to do. This is a really big decision. I've literally spent two decades getting to where I am and to throw it all away. I just need some help working through this and using that strengths based process, started to uncover what was this person really good at? What did they actually love doing? And what were the things that were part of their job that were draining them? That they just really didn't want to do. So we went through a process of doing job shaping. Also, this person owns a business, so this should be something that if you own a business, you should get the benefits of owning a business where you can shape your job to you. But autistic, ADHDers, often we don't realise that we are allowed to do these things, that we can break the rules sometimes and so, yeah, we changed their job to focus more on the things that brought them energy and that they loved doing and were good at. And then to think about what that meant for the people that they employ and what tasks and roles were part of their jobs. And that has been a very transformative process for this person. There's still a lot.
Chris Hudson:It's okay. And yeah, I think it's incredibly powerful. And then obviously if you think about it within the context of the whole company, then the people that are suddenly released from things that I don't like doing and the things that they love doing, it opens up that whole conversation. The whole reset can not just apply to one leader but everyone within the teams, which sounds amazing. So yeah, thank you for sharing that. Thank you. I also want to talk a bit about disclosure and the comfort factor or not so comfortable factors around disclosing your neurodivergence. So if somebody listening to the show is saying, okay, I've not been diagnosed, but I think I might, I relate to a lot of this and what's being discussed and love what Annie's saying. How would they navigate that process themselves and also disclosing it to some of their leaders or other team members, do you think?
Ani Møller:Another really big question. Firstly, it's hard to disclose something that you haven't been diagnosed with. Because what exactly are you disclosing? You're disclosing a thought, that is not something That manager or that company is actually legally obligated to support you with. So if you do have a formal diagnosis, that is when it can be particularly helpful to go through that disclosure process. But there are a lot of challenges. that can go with that. There is a lot of stigma. I have experienced it myself. I think, ADHD is very stigmatized. Autism is extremely stigmatized. And then you've got other conditions, I mentioned, schizoaffective, bipolar, that they're even more stigmatized. And You don't know how people are going to react, unfortunately. And I like to talk a lot about safety. Safety being the number one most important thing. Safety to remain employed, safety to pay your bills, pay your mortgage, have a place to sleep, to rent a place. So I would always encourage my clients to focus on those things first, because sometimes it may not be safe to disclose in that moment. And it might mean perhaps you need to go find another job. But hopefully you are able to disclose because that's when you can request reasonable accommodations. Those reasonable accommodations can be some of those things that I mentioned earlier around flexible working or requesting meeting agendas. Even just those simple things can be great help. And then having a formal diagnosis can give you access to things like the Employment Assistance Fund, which can give you access to, at the moment it's about 1, 600 that you can put towards specialist mental health support, which in my case is coaching. But I think you really have to weigh up what you know about the organization that you're disclosing to, what you know about your manager. At the same time, if you've got ADHD, sometimes it's really hard to keep things inside because we love blurting things out. So, if it happens, it happens. I actually went to, ADHD Western Australia just last week and there was a, I think he was a lawyer or is an HR specialist and he was talking about recommendations around disclosure. And his suggestion was that you do disclose as early as you can, because you don't want to be disclosing when you're on a performance improvement plan because there are some legal challenges with that. But disclosing early disclosing safely and if you're not able to disclose potentially looking at someone an advocate or a therapist or a coach or someone who can help you navigate that process in a way that is comfortable.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. That seems sensible. I think, have you seen in organizations or have you heard about any organizations setting up almost that network of that safety network or representative within the organization that people can go to? Is it just sitting within people and culture and you find your way there and ask them about anything, but do you feel like there's a neurodivergent specialism coming in?
Ani Møller:Definitely. I can definitely see one coming in. There's a lot of ERGs, the employment groups, that are usually like employee led rather than specialist led. I'm not seeing a lot of organizations contacting specialists to help them work on these sorts of things. But I think it is growing and it is changing.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, maybe the broader question from here is around the creation of a safe environment but also something bigger than that, Where is it that you're able to not just allow neurodivergent people to work comfortably, but where could they thrive, so we're thinking about neuro affirming workplaces and some of the things that could be put in place there. Have you got any ideas there?
Ani Møller:I mean, thinking of a true neuro affirming organization, what comes to top of mind is the Digital Picnic, with their CEO, Sherry Clonin, who is an open and proud autistic woman. She's the CEO. They are very neuro affirming. They actually, as part of their bonus program, for their employees, they will pay for people to get a diagnosis, if they need that. Which is incredible, because It's very expensive, the wait lists are incredibly long, and for a lot of people it's actually out of reach. My diagnosis of getting ADHD and autism, that was$4, 000 before my private health covered some of it. And I think there was a small amount that was covered by Medicare, but not a lot of it was. So I think having that as something is, that's top tier, that's gold standard. Things like offering, they also offer noise cancelling headphones to people when they're working in the office, which is amazing. So I think the main thing is really having leaders who are public. So I know that there are many neurodivergent leaders working in corporate Australia.
Chris Hudson:Yeah.
Ani Møller:Very few of them are public for the reasons, some of the reasons we've spoken about before, there is a lot of stigma. But as more people start to disclose their own diagnosis, it helps to reduce the stigma in those organizations, I know when I went public, when I was an executive director, I had a surprising amount of people come to me privately and then they disclosed their diagnosis to me. But they had not told anyone in their team. They had not told their manager. They did not feel safe, but that made me a safe person to them. And so I think, if you can see it, you can be it. A lot of people, you know, they might join an organization. They've got ADHD, they look around, they think everyone's neurotypical, not realizing that actually they're not. And so because of that they don't think that they can progress their career in this neurotypical standard.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, that's incredibly important. And that would work well. It's like a beacon, you need to shine a light for people to be able to feel that that's being addressed in someway and to feel comfortable. So yeah, I think that that signposting is really important. So thank you. And then, coming back to leaders, are there any more practical tips or things that would help better support neurodivergent team members, do you think?
Ani Møller:Hmm. The thing that just came to top of mind is, the phrase coach the person, not the problem. It's something I see when leaders are someone in their team is struggling and they're just trying to push them, just do it this way, do it this way, do it this way. And then for whatever reason, that person does not do it that way or cannot do it that way. And it gets worse. That person will then lose confidence and it just becomes this spiral of lack of confidence, frustration, it's not great. But when you focus on coaching the person and working with the assumption that the people that you have hired are intelligent, creative, resourceful people, if you help them work through their problems rather than telling them what the solution is, you will see significantly better results.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, cool. Yeah, that's really good. And then, we've talked a bit about leaders, talked a bit about us as individuals and how we would navigate some of those challenges, if we feel like we are, neurodivergent. But other colleagues in your team, if you see that somebody's struggling is it sensitive? Can they just go and ask that person if they're okay? Have you got any? Any kind of tips on how to be a better ally if you see somebody and that signs of, with signs of distress in some way.
Ani Møller:Yeah. I mean, I think, are you okay is a wonderful question to ask and it's something that we should be asking much more regularly than just one day in September. I think it really opens up a conversation for how people might need help and also what's going on. Because a lot of the time when someone isn't okay, It's, there's other things that are going on in their life. Their mum is ill or they're going through a divorce and those big life challenges are where people, if they are neurodivergent, those executive dysfunction, that executive dysfunction will start to flare up under times of intense stress. And so encouraging them to seek help or whatever it is that they need. And just asking them a question so they know that someone cares is a really great start. I wouldn't recommend asking if they are autistic or ADHD. It's not really anyone's place to be diagnosing people, because not all people are receptive to that. It took me a long time to come to terms with the fact that I was autistic. I felt a lot of shame with that. So if someone is in distress, you don't want to be adding to it. I think not really..
Chris Hudson:That badging can be really unhelpful upfront and quite conferencing I'm sure because they might be thinking that they would help, but being called something and not being prepared for that question might be,
Ani Møller:and people treat you different. And if you have gotten through life not realizing that you are ADHD or autistic, you very likely have some ingrained thoughts, negative impressions on what it means to be those things. And very likely that person will take that as an insult and it will make things worse. It took me years to accept what all of those words mean and to be able to say openly, I'm autistic. I still now I run my own business. I work with some very impressive people. But sometimes if I say to a stranger, Oh, blah, blah, blah, I'm autistic. they immediately change. They start to speak to me as if I'm a child. So I think just navigating that whole process of telling someone or perceiving that you might be that, there's a lot of challenge in that.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. In that situation, do you feel like you've learned about when and how to disclose to other people? in a way that works for you. Is that something that you learned through doing it? What are your learnings from that experience?
Ani Møller:Well, when I first got diagnosed, I just couldn't stop blurting it out in any second I possibly could. I think the fact that I was so senior in my company, It felt like it afforded me an element of safety. And so I just felt like I wanted to practice using the words. And then using the good old autistic pattern recognition to go, okay, this person is like this before and then I say this and then I get this reaction. Okay, let's just put this in the memory bank. So I know how to do that. But then unfortunately I did get to a point where I was getting a lot of negative responses and so I stopped disclosing to people. And now it's like the pendulum swing, so now I'm kind of back figuring out, okay, I think these situations are going to be helpful and these are not. But for me personally, I do try to be very open with who I am because it helps me understand who I'm working with and it also hopefully helps them understand, but to be able to do that has taken a lot of I guess, receiving responses that I'm not prepared for, receiving responses that are negative and then having to prepare. Probably, unsurprisingly, a bit of a script for if I do get a response that is not positive, how do I deal with that? Because if you don't have a plan for how to deal with those things, telling people can be really overwhelming.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, I can see that. That would be the case. And catching you off guard you weren't expecting that situation or that response, then how to manage it in the situation in that moment would be incredibly hard. And I think even in the moment, particularly in the work environment, there aren't often Pauses or there, there aren't pauses designed into these conversations unless you create them. So you could feel like, you might be unprepared and you wouldn't know how to respond in that situation. So having a plan sounds like a good point.
Ani Møller:Yeah.
Chris Hudson:We've talked a lot and obviously you've got hugely rich lived experience, but also you're coaching in this area now too, but are there any more practical tips for neurodivergent individuals that you want to share that could just be quick pieces of advice around how to better manage their tasks or their time or anything like that?
Ani Møller:Okay, I'm gonna have to, stop me when I go too far because I have a lot. So I think the thing that seems to be the most helpful for all of my clients is, First, getting in touch with their brain, starting to learn how their brain works. A lot of our brains will have different cycles. You're a man, you're going to have a very different experience of ADHD to me, or another person who deals with different hormones in their body. So We do work on cycles. Your cycle is going to be throughout a single day. My cycle is across a month where my ADHD symptoms will get worse before my menstrual cycle, which is very frustrating. But knowing that and then being able to plan around that is very helpful. I know that my brain works best. If I do some form of movement in the morning, can be a walk. Pilates, gym, run, whatever it is that you enjoy, to try and get that because ADHDers have a reduced blood flow into the prefrontal cortex, which is not helpful when you're trying to do dopamine rich tasks. So if I do those sorts of activities in the morning, I then have this optimum period between 10am and 12pm to do my hardest work. tasks. So anything that's going to require a lot of executive functioning, that's a great time for me. For some of my clients, it might not be in the morning. It might be in the afternoon. It also depends on what time they take their medication. So really starting to get into touch with these cycles of cognitive energy is very, very helpful. Another one is, Another one is if you have ADHD and you've not, gone on medication yet, you haven't tried medication because you're scared of it for whatever reason, I would absolutely recommend doing it. It is effective in 70 to 80 percent of people who have ADHD. At the same time, there is still a lot of stigma around medication, stimulant medication. But for my clients who take it's a lifesaver. Unfortunately they do say pills don't teach skills, so there is this two pronged approach, whether it is therapy or coaching, as well as medication, to give it a go. Another one is around sleep. Now that's wrapped up in a lot of challenge because both autistic and ADHDers really struggle with sleep for different reasons. ADHDers the day is just like so busy, busy, busy, busy, and then suddenly it gets quiet at night and the lack of distraction means, okay, I can think now. And so I often stay up late at night, or get sucked into a hyper focus and their personal time, whatever that is, and that can result in having some poor sleep hygiene. But improving sleep hygiene, like basically being rested. will improve your cognitive functions. It sounds very obvious when I say it like that, but I didn't realize until I did a lot of testing on myself. And then also, my clients will use things like melatonin to help improve their sleep cycles. But yes, whenever you're well rested, your executive functions will work. I think, practically, especially when it comes to ADHD is. We're generally not so good at things like task lists and even just mentioning a task list, there's probably someone watching this with ADHD who's like, Oh, she's gonna say, do a task list. But what I'm going to say is, to set time aside to do your task list. So that could be that, every morning for the first 30 minutes of your day, you're planning your day. Perhaps it's the first portion of your Monday you're planning your week or the end of Friday, whatever it is. Just having that time set aside in a time of the day when you're actually able to do it is life changing. Because doing a task list, yeah that's a great piece of advice of course, but if we don't have the processes around that task list to actually do it effectively, then it becomes quite difficult. And then another one I really want to mention is around estimates. Because ADHDers really struggle with estimates. Just double them. Maybe even just triple them. Just know that whatever you're estimating is not enough. Because we often don't estimate the start of the task or the things that come after the task. We just estimate the task. So for example, when I was back in my project management day, I'd have to minute a meeting and I would go, okay, it's one hour. Okay, I've got one hour for the task. No. I had one hour to prepare for the meeting, doing all the things you need to do there, one hour for the meeting, and then another hour do all the minutes. So, it was actually three hours. And that's something that ADHDers often don't realise, that we really only estimate the thing to be done, not the whole task.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Wow. Thank you. There's some really good stuff in there and really practical advice as well. And I'm sure people, if they've got other questions they want to get in touch, how would they best get in touch with you?
Ani Møller:Through my website. There's AniMoller.com
Chris Hudson:yeah. Brilliant. All right. And maybe just finish on the future of work with neurodiversity becoming ever present and ever open in its discussion and its awareness. But how do you see things playing out in the next little while
Ani Møller:I would love and I hope that we will start to see something like what we saw with the, gay marriage, equality, marriage equality vote, a few years ago here in Australia. There were a lot more training programs that were being introduced into workplaces. There was a lot more discussion about it, and you saw a lot more people become open and visible. I really hope that that's what we're going to see with things like neurodiversity, where we get to have pride inside organizations, because we do come with amazing strengths and we should be proud of who we are. But I think just having that discussed openly and being people being able to express themselves authentically in the workplace, that would be where I'd love to see it go.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, thank you so much, Ani. And yeah, once again, I just want to say a massive thank you to you for coming onto the show and for sharing your story, which I know is, it's probably incredibly hard to talk through and think about even still. But it's obviously led to this point where you're running your own coaching business. You're helping a lot of people out there in the industry and you're doing some incredibly positive work. So I want to say, thank you once again.
Ani Møller:Thank you so much.
Chris Hudson:Thank you.