The Company Road Podcast
In this podcast we’ll be exploring what it takes to change a company. Taking the big steps, or the smaller steps in between.
This one’s for the intrapreneurs. You’ll be getting to know some big, brave and darn right outrageous personalities, luminaries, pioneers of business and hearing what they’ve done to fix the thorniest of problems within organisations.
The Company Road Podcast
E79 Making change doable: The psychology and truths behind organisational transformation
"Communicate to involve, not to tell, so that you can make the change stick." - Lana North
Lana North is a change communication specialist and founder of the Communication Exchange who has spent two decades managing complex transformation programmes across industries from banking to logistics. After working through major changes including the aftermath of the European financial crisis, she now helps leaders navigate organisational transformation with clarity and humanity.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
- The psychology of change resistance
- Two-way communication vs. one-way instruction
- Stakeholder engagement and timing
- Managing conflict and building consensus
- Practical communication strategies
Key links
About our guest
Lana North is a change communication specialist and founder of The Communication Exchange.
After two decades of leading communication efforts across complex change programs in Australia and Europe, Lana now helps professional leaders to drive sustainable change by mastering their communication and team engagement skills.
Lana works with those leaders- the ones who care deeply, but feel overwhelmed by the pace, unsure how to say the hard things, and uncertain about how to truly engage their teams when they’re still finding their own footing.Her focus is on making change doable, not daunting -with less jargon, more humanity, and a real plan for making change stick so that the benefits can be realised.
When she’s not helping professional leaders to drive sustainable change, Lana’s juggling life with three kids, a Labrador, and the occasional fence-jumping cow.
About our host
Our host, Chris Hudson, is an Intrapreneuship Coach, Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.
Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.
Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally.
For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at https://companyroad.co/podcast/
Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Company Road Podcast where we explore what it takes to transform a company from the inside out. I'm Chris Hudson, and today I am thrilled to be speaking with Lana North Lana's a change communication specialist and founder of the Communication Exchange. After two decades of wrangling really complex change programs and the occasional executive ego, Lana's been helping leaders navigate the messy middle of change and become the clear, trusted voices of the teams and what the teams need and especially when the pressure's on. So her focus is about making change doable. It's not a daunting thing. It's less jargon, more humanity, and the kind of communication actually lands. And what I really love about Lana's approach is how she understands the psychology behind successful change. And she's worked with leaders on all levels, really from C-Suite through to first time leaders, helping them communicate in ways that save millions in operational costs, that boost team engagement. It creates a sense of real sustainable transformation. And when she's not coaching leaders through change, she's juggling life with three kids, Labrador and the occasional fence jumping cow, I believe, which probably gives her excellent practice in managing the unexpected. Lana huge, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for coming on.
Lana North:Amazing. Thanks so much for having me, Chris. Great to be here.
Chris Hudson:No problem. Yeah, thanks so much. And yeah. You've described yourself as someone who spent two decades wrangling complex change programs and the occasional executive ego. Should we go into that first and maybe you could paint us a picture about what it, what life really looked like in your corporate days. What, what was happening?
Lana North:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, aside from the kids and the fence jumping cows, there's been a few executive egos in there as well. I really started out in corporate communications and running the whole spectrum of communication across internal and external, and then specialized in change and transformation programs. And that's what I've really loved and been able to dive into. The one thing that I've learned in all of that, that regardless of industry, the one thing about change, that is consistent everywhere is that it's all about people. From working in engineering to banking and finance in the aftermath of the financial crisis over in Europe to then professional services here and then supply chain and logistics. The one thing that is consistent everywhere is that it's all about people, and that's what has really drawn me to change and transformation in particular from a communication perspective, is that there is no day that's ever the same and you can't. Predict everything that's going to happen. So, keeps you on your toes.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, definitely. And do you remember though, obviously you've been through several, several battles. I dunno what the best way to describe a change experience is, but you've been through a lot of experiences. Was there a moment where you realized that, that the secret to all of it working was really communication, the missing piece of most change initiatives or was there something else that kind of struck you as being like the big thing that people weren't doing?
Lana North:Yeah, I think it was probably the moment. So if I think back to one of, one of the early, major transformations that, that I worked on, which was over in Europe. I was living in the Netherlands and working for a bank over there. And, we had arrived over there just as the financial crisis was starting and then found myself working in a bank of all places after that and. Naturally what went before the crisis wasn't going to, be the way forward afterwards. And so I was part of the team that was working on the new strategy for what was going to, be the new way forward. And it was really in those moments where we had our senior leaders from all over the world who were coming together to work through what next? And how do we make things work going forward that's going to be a sustainable way. It's quite different from how we've done things in the past. Seeing the power of everybody coming together to really be so committed to solving that conundrum and really be committed to wanting to know what was going to be forward, but wanting to shape it as well. And then. What we were able to walk away with from the communication and really the engagement side of things in having people come together really committed to solving a problem and then seeing that rollout and people, fully take ownership of it and be able to run with it as it applied to their own local context was really powerful. And I think that was one of those first moments where I really saw the power of bringing people together of communication, but not of communication as a one-way street. And this is how things are going to happen going forward. But communication in its two-way context as part of problem solving to shape what the change is going to be. And that was the thing that really set me, down the path of change, in particular where. I love it when we can bring people together and people can help to create and shape what that outcome looks like.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, yeah, definitely. That's really well described. I think the two-way communication, it feels like there's always that a push and pull sometimes. And, a lot often organizations are used to running in push mode where the news is just communicated. And, the thing is a directive, people pick up the, the things that're being told. They take them as red and then they move on. But actually the two-way communication can really help in activating the change through the organization. And giving people a sense of ownership and real empowerment really around what's going on. So I think, can you think of a time where that hasn't been the case? Where you've just seen it being, pushed out without some of those things.
Lana North:Oh yeah, I've seen that plenty as well. Yeah. And natural naturally, it, it tends to be, I think it always comes from the right place, but it usually comes from a place of wanting to do something very quickly and we'll just push this out and get through this change and then we can move on to the next thing. And the danger of course, or the risk in doing that is that people don't have a chance to have a say in how that looks. And so the, chances of. People really truly adopting and committing to it, a lot less because they haven't had an opportunity to have a say. I, I remember a time where it seemed like it was quite a small process change that was going to happen. And the team that. That was managing it didn't really think there was much in the way of consultation that needed to happen. They were making a small system change and they just told a number of people on this day, this is going to change. Because there wasn't that consultation piece or collaboration that went into it. Some of the things that were real key dependencies were missed in rolling that out. And so then when it. Did go live. All of a sudden there was this domino effect to other systems and processes and teams that hadn't been considered, upfront because there was an assumption. That this was just going to be very simple and wouldn't have an impact on anything else. Yeah. When in fact it ended up derailing a few other systems and things had to be rolled back and then reset. So that can be also, one of the risks in doing it is that being so blinkered you miss other, other things that are really important to the success of the change that you're trying to make.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Yeah, I really, yeah, that's absolutely right. I think I've worked in this space a lot too, now I'm just finishing one where there's, 1400 retailers involved in something around there. And it just feels you gotta get a sense for like when to deploy some of these tactics. So, have you got any thoughts around. When you properly need a program like this or where you think you can just get away with something that's a bit more low touch and a bit more discreet, like where, what's your feeling on when change management programs are required and when, what are the signals for that being the case?
Lana North:Yeah, that's, yeah, that's a really good question. You can't make that judgment call straight away because something could look simple we've just talked about, and then actually need something a bit more detailed. So I think the starting point needs to be to really sit back and ask yourself who are all the teams or other processes that are linked to what it is that we're talking about, and really making that conscious effort to go and speak to those teams first so that they can be scoped. And then you might find that. What you're doing is not going to have much of an impact. And so you can just go ahead and do it. Or you might uncover, like we were just talking about a situation where it's gonna have a domino effect. But unless you ask some of those questions up front, then you won't know that. So I think you can never it's never a great idea just to do a pure desktop, exercise in that. Being all about people going out, thinking who are the teams or the processes that are most impacted, could be most impacted. And going and just having a really open, curious conversation to test the water so that can inform you. So you can do, just pick, say at least three people. That could be dependent on this, or the key stakeholders that,, ask you for something in relation to whatever it is that you're changing and just go and test the water. Hey, we're thinking about this. What are the things that we should be thinking about as we work through it? And it might come up that there's nothing much you need to consider. Or it could open a whole other, stream that you need to go and explore.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, yeah, definitely. That's absolutely right. You observe this in the working world, right? Where you normally, it's, you're almost paid to have a point of view in certain instances. So you can be in a meeting, you can be in the workshop, and there some people would think anyway, if you don't say something that you don't have a point of view, you don't have an opinion. So, if you take the extra step as you're describing to go out and talk to people, then people will give you their feedback. And I think it's, it can be a real eye-opener, but also a real. A real relationship builder within the corporate context as well. It just feels like it's a nice bridge in, and it doesn't have to be part of a very official, consultation program. And if that, it can be a little bit more casual as well. Is that your feeling?
Lana North:Yeah, absolutely. I think it should start that way. As you said, the relationships are so key. And so starting it out from that, starting out with the intent of collaboration and curiosity will get you a long way in building those relationships and reinforcing. And even if it turns out that there's nothing that you had to really consider, the person will really appreciate that you have asked the question, and just been considerate of them. And so that does, so much for. Your future working relationships with them as well. And then you start to get that, coming back your own way too, where people will reach out to you to ask your view on things and check in, whether there's gonna be a follow on effect to you and the work that you are doing. So it's never, ever wasted effort in building those relationships, whether it's now or in the future.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. I wonder, the timing can be quite critical, right?'cause like everyone says, yeah, involve me early and I want to know everything up front. But actually, if you've been on the other side, you had to instigate some of these changes, then, almost oversharing too early can be a little bit harmful as well. If people, but then if they're not being told, what's going on, then they're filling in the gaps. What do you, what's your view on timing of all of this?
Lana North:Yeah. Timing is really critical. I think when you are laying out your program of work, really taking the time to understand. When people would be impacted by something and then the degree of impact as well. So really taking that moment to do, that impact assessment so that you can know whether somebody's going to be impacted now or down the line. And then get those people together and give a bit of a high level of this is what we're trying to achieve, and ask people when is the right time to involve them. Yeah. So rather than, again, making assumptions like actually step into the shoes of the people that you're working with and just to ask them, this is what we're thinking of doing. We know that it won't impact you, straight up, but it might down the track. How do you want us to bring you in and where do you think it's the right time to do that? We don't want to, go too early, and then people think, oh, this thing is never ever going to land because there's so much work that needs to be done upfront. So it's that timing and sequencing that's really important. That is also a really important consideration because there's so much change going on at the moment as well, in workplaces. And, the rate of change as we have it right now, today is the slowest it's ever going to be tomorrow and the day after and the day after, it's just getting faster and there's just getting more. So being really considerate of all the other things that are impacting people and being thrown at them. Not from you, but from other parts of the business or outside or regulations. Just shows that you're being really considerate and wanting to be a partner in doing it, because when people have got so much coming at them, then their ability to absorb it really reduces. And so then you're not going to get the attention that it needs when it comes, if you haven't engaged at the right time.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Absolutely. And you made a couple of really good points there. I think the, the speed of change, a lot of work we do is around maneuverability in business and helping people be a little bit more nimble in changing their business direction and setting up for growth in the future. And that is getting faster. But unless people are ready for it, then people can't all run and, put on a ballet or whatever it is, whatever is the analogy they wanna use. But they can't all orchestrate unless they're organized in preparation for that. And they can't move at speed unless that has been made clear. So that's probably one thing. And then the other thing you mentioned, which I think is great is involving them in the conversation so they can decide when they want to be involved and that gives them a sense of control. Rather than it just being controlled by somebody else. So I think, that can be their choice as to whether they want to get involved and provide input at any point as well. So, has that worked really well for you in programs that you've run in the past?
Lana North:Yeah, it absolutely has. And. Again, like those early conversations, they just open up all the other things that a team has on their plate. So then you can also be thinking about that when you are, being mindful of when they need to come in, and how they need to be engaged in it. And it also means that. You can uncover things that you might not have known about earlier. Sequencing of various activities is something that can often have a negative impact on the outcome of a change if something is launched and then something else, actually needed to go first, but things weren't talking to each other, or there was a dependency that was missed early on. Just having those early conversations is really critical. Also it means that then when people are needed to step in the anything that is a prerequisite has already been done. And so then things don't get delayed because they're not having to wait on something else to happen. And people are more able to absorb it because they can see how this particular change fits into a bigger picture. If there is a bigger picture that it's part of. And that again, comes down to the ability to absorb and then act on change. And so then people can put their full attention on it and you have much greater chance of sustaining the change so that you are then not back to square one, 12 months down the track thinking we did all this work. Why are we back to square one and why haven't we realized the benefits of what we're setting out to achieve? Because in the end, there's always some kind of benefit that you're doing when you set out to make a change. And so if you're not realizing that. 12 months down the track, then it's wasted effort. So it's really important to be making sure those sequencing and ability to absorb, change and act on it properly is laid out from the beginning.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Yeah, I mean there's a stage in the framework, which is around embedding and, you've gotta introduce it in a certain way, so find out, obviously discover what you're doing, introduce it a certain way, and then down the track, you're thinking about how to almost reinforce the change and play back some of the successes. And, just keep that kind of momentum and positive feeling around, what's been happening rather than it just being, okay, we've done it, we move on to the next thing. And then you interchange fatigue type territories.. Have you seen that framework working as well?
Lana North:Yeah, definitely. When things are sequenced properly, then you absolutely can create the space for that. Also, the linking of different activities together, to show all the things that are happening together that are achieving one objective, one overarching objective, so then it doesn't. Necessarily feel say five different changes. It's just five steps in one change. And even being able to make that shift for people is a really big relief on the mental load that comes with change and all the things that are coming down the pipeline so you said the change fatigue, which is very real. And there's a hotspot I think for that change fatigue where you have, lots of things happening at the same time. So you've got change collision where one team is just getting hit again and again by a number of things. And then you've got. Change saturation, which is that prolonged period of change, where it doesn't feel like that light at the end of the tunnel is ever going to arrive. You just get thrown straight into the next one. And so when those things collide, that change fatigue that you mentioned is very real.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, definitely. And people are just human, right? They turn up for work every day thinking that it's gonna be a certain way and then maybe it isn't.
Lana North:Yeah, exactly. Exactly. The only thing we can rely on is that change is constant.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, and people expect that kind of, I'm gonna turn up and it's a habit, a habitual thing to kinda just be at work doing similar things. But actually the organizations have to progress and they have to move people along. And developing them as well and developing the organization. So yeah, it's gonna be part of every everyone's work, particularly now with all the all the technology.
Lana North:Yeah, exactly. And people are actually hardwired to resist change as well. Yeah. So every time there's a new change, it's another reset and another thing, that our brains need to work through too,
Chris Hudson:yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's, it's, it is actually quite interesting to see the difference within organizations. Some are, some are obviously moving and the doubt scene quicker than others and some are kind of preserving, the legacy of what has been. And obviously, I had it on the previous show with Andreas. We were talking a little bit about, the construct of business and the commerciality and the reality of that. The fact that, it's all geared up to make people. Make businesses money, obviously, ultimately at the end of the day. But it feels like once that secret formula is reached, you've understood how to, how the organization makes money. People wanna preserve that for as long as possible without having to change. So we're trying to think, okay, it can't last forever. When do you introduce change? Is it at the peak of success, is there's a change cycle that comes in? Is r and d always happening in the background? I've read somewhere that in, in this country, in Australia, there's actually much less investment in r and d compared to a lot of other, corporate cultures elsewhere in the world. Yeah, it just feels like an interesting point to think about, when change is needed, is it in planning for something that should be happening? Is it in response? It feels like it's always needing to be considered, but it's not always being considered. Is that your feeling too?
Lana North:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That's my feeling too., And I think we see it play out there. There are a couple of things going on, out in the business world at the moment where it's a, the classic examples of that where, you've got the introduction of AI and adoption. Of that. And do we adopt, don't we adopt? Are people using it anyway? Where is the right place to be using it first? We're scared that it's gonna take jobs now, there's, moving through that change curve really quite quickly of, no, there's a place for it, but it's not going to take everyone's jobs because it. Doesn't have that, innovative edge. It, can only work on things that have been already in the past. And so what does that say for innovation? So that's a really interesting one. And then the return to office conversation that is ongoing. It is another one as well. And so many organizations grappling with that. And you think, they're quite, they seem to be quite. Basic human needs almost of, the shelter and the place to work and somewhere to come and connect as people, that we're grappling with. So on the one hand you have ai, which is really, looking to the future and what could that bring to a workplace and change? And on the other hand. Very much looking at that hierarchy of needs of place to go, that is, physical in person, roof over the head infrastructure that you need. And so we have things that are playing out at quite different levels that almost every organization is grappling within some way or another.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And, yeah, I was gonna come onto the the psychology of change and the leadership around it. And you were talking a little bit about, resilience, and resistance. Now maybe those are two things that we could explore. In that sense. And it feels like obviously some will deal with change better than others. Some will resist it more than others. Are there any others that we need to consider that begin with are, I don't know. But yeah, it feels like there, there's quite a lot of, I don't wanna call it like profiling, like it's just, empathy really, but understanding of how, what you're observing within your organization, how to design for some of this change and how to lead people through it from a psychological point of view. Have you got any thoughts around that?
Lana North:Yeah, absolutely. I think you, you hit the nail on the head with the empathy piece. That's really what it's all about, and remembering that. No change happens unless people decide to make it happen and adopt it and then embed it. And so when we start with people as the key to the success of any change, I think it's worthwhile remembering that, we are as human beings hardwired to resist change. Our brains see change as a threat before they ever see it as an opportunity. And sometimes moving through that from threat to opportunity can be a really quick process. But other times it takes a long time. And that can be because of. People's past experiences that you might or might not know about. Maybe they've had a bad experience of change with a similar kind of program in the past. And so they're bringing those experiences to how prepared they are to adopt and get involved in the change. And then at the same time. You've also got the personal experiences and resilience that people have to it. And that can come from a whole range of personal, things that might have happened in their work life or in their personal life as well that can set them up to have a mindset of being more open to something that changes or being a bit more closed or taking a bit longer to work through that change curve. And I think as leaders, it's really important to remember that in. Planning the change and in thinking about what change needs to happen and making those decisions, you have quite a head start in moving through your own change curve and moving to acceptance of whatever the new normal will be. Yeah. Than the people have who you are asking to actually make the change. Because that decision making and consideration process helps your own acceptance of it. But the same, that same luxury isn't afforded to the people that you are asking to do all the doing around the change. And so I think starting with the consideration and empathy around that and giving people that chance to absorb and move through to a level of acceptance, whatever that looks like, is really important in the timelines. And, when you first start talking to people about it.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, definitely. It reminds me of when you have kids, right? So Exactly. I got, we've got kids as well, and, yeah, the idea of having a kid to begin with is like one process. And obviously you talk that out, and you get to, that gets lower, then you have another one, and then, obviously you, the period of pregnancy in itself,, it feels like that's a preparation process, through the different trimesters and then. Obviously then after that you've got a kid in the world and you've gotta adapt to that too. But it feels like you're designing in moments at which you should be paying attention, understanding things a little bit more, doing some research. I think you hit the nail on the head there because you really have to involve people in those different. Different stages. Otherwise it's just a complete shock and you're in the ice bath, you're just, yeah, that's right. This is me new, totally new. And I don't expect it. I dunno if I feel that comfortable, it's that kind of exactly like a flight reaction,
Lana North:yeah. Otherwise, like they walk into the hospital and you just hand them a baby without them ever having the experience of Yeah. The pregnancy and the lead up to that and say, you're here you go. You're qualified. Now you're in charge of a human life. Off you go. Yeah. Work it out.
Chris Hudson:I was always terrified of kids when, before we had our own, I was terrified. You'd turn up at a barbecue, whatever, and people just hand you a baby. It's what do you do? I,
Lana North:exactly. I'm not qualified for this.
Chris Hudson:That's it. That's it. Yeah, so yeah, I think preparation is key. Stakeholder engagement, obviously everyone's busy. They're all doing their own things, so how do you get people tuned in to the fact that things need to happen, that we need their involvement? What if they say they're too busy? How do you get, how do you get around some of that usually.
Lana North:Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, so you know, particularly around being busy and you mentioned kind of the fight or flight yeah. Responses that people have. I think taking a moment to just scan where people are at and the, natural responses that, that they might have when we first start talking about a change being needed. So even just talking about the problem rather than the solution yet. Yes. Really being tuned into the behavior of people and what. Type of response they're having to that compared to how they might normally behave as well. So say that, you might be floating for the first time that you know there's a particular problem and it needs a solution. And maybe somebody is normally quite vocal about these things, but actually they're sitting in the meeting and they're not saying anything, or they seem distracted. And then you can't manage to catch up with them afterwards. What is. The behavior of that person compared to how they normally, present themselves saying about their readiness for change. And so that's, the very first thing that you can do is be very tuned into how people are behaving and what their re response to change is, before it's even become a real thing. Yet even in those, first discovery stages. Yeah. I think the key is if you can ask yourself to put yourself in the shoes of the people who you know. You're going to need on board. Yeah. And really think about what else have they got going on that is so appreciated by anybody that you're gonna talk to, that there's an acknowledgement that yeah, this thing that's most important to you in your world is probably not the most important thing to them in their world because everyone is juggling and even just that acknowledgement can go such a long way. So that step in the shoes of other people. I think is the key really to the start of any. Productive stakeholder engagement, that you can have. And then you can start to see where influence, plays out and the relationships that people have. But you're really starting off on the right foot by acknowledging that there are other things going on in people's world and maybe they need to be involved, but what level of involvement do they have? And it's back to the conversation that we had at the very beginning when we started talking around just to ask them. Just ask them. And if we take a stance of communicating to involve people rather than to tell them, and then giving them the choices around what's the right level of involvement, then that can set your stakeholder engagement, up really well from the beginning.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Yeah, definitely. The, the thing that, as you were talking, I was just thinking that business itself is designed to get people working together in some way. So there's probably something within that mix that you can lean on. There's a process, there's a meeting, there's a. Yeah, it's like board meeting or there's a, there's this kind of regular cadence to how people work and how they organize themselves. But I think we also have to be aware of all of the things that can get in the way of that. If you're talking about empathy, then there are many things that probably wouldn't lend themselves. I was gonna ask you about Powerpoint and slides and whether they're the friend or whether they're the enemy in these sorts of situations.'cause there are so many things that can be put up as blockers, that create distance as opposed to connection and, yeah. What's your observation around that?
Lana North:Yeah, slides almost had a bit of an, a bit of an allergic reaction from the amount of, slides that have been created throughout the, throughout the years. And yeah, I've put my hand up, I've guilty, I've created many of them. Having, just having a person to person conversation can go such a long way. And it also then doesn't distract from you being able to read the room a bit better as well and really read the response and the reaction from the people that you are going to be reliant on or who are going to rely on you for something as well. And so slide decks have their. Have their place, probably not really used for their original intent so much anymore. But pulling something out and expecting people to, have read it, be able to digest it and immediately respond to it, is probably not the recipe for success, when you're first starting out. Yeah, having, just being very clear about what the problem is and what it is you're trying to solve for from the beginning. And then asking people, what do you think about it? What else should we consider? They are things that are much more likely to get you off on the right foot. Because the other thing about having a beautiful polished slide deck is that it looks like something is very finished, that all the thinking has gone into it and that all the decisions have been made already and there's not a lot of room for any kind of input or for people to, be able to shape any of it. It looks like it's done and you think, wow, you've, you've already come up with all the solutions you've already made your decision, so why are you asking me anyway? And that can be a really dangerous place, even if that's not your intention, that can be a really dangerous place to venture into because then people will put up resistance that might not have been there, from the beginning. Plus the amount of time that goes into that when you could have just had, 10 minutes at the end of an existing, meeting to get a bit of a pulse check and be able to move forward. That can really hold you back. So just have conversations Yeah. To begin with. And leave the really formal stuff for later once you are well down the path of getting people on board.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. Nice. I think there's, there's something to be said maybe for using a prompt, and that can be, the room you can use a conversation, you can use a whiteboard. You could use some flip charts or whatever, but that's something that, that gives people something to talk about and almost discuss and align upon, but in a way that gives them the opportunity to provide feedback and input. So you, you've seen this in, in, a thousand boardroom. Or meeting room type environments, I'm sure as well. But yeah, there's always the person in the room that wants to just jump up and get the pen and start writing. Just getting away, give the, give them opportunities to do that and go against the temptation to finish it before the workshop, put it up on a slide and it looks fixed, as you were saying. I can just picture that face, and you'll have seen this as well, when you put a slide up and there's that ton of information on it. And people slightly lean in and they start squinting a little bit. It's that kind of face. Because they're trying to say, does this mean anything to me? Is it relevant to me in my role? What's it gonna mean for my team? A thousand questions are going through their heads and they dunno what it means yet. So if the visual is comm, doing that work of communicating. It's relevance to that person, then it's maybe not doing that unless you've primed people for that and you've discussed it with'em first. Yeah. I think it's a really good tip about just involving people in that sort of more of a tissue session around, how to, how does it sit with you? What do you think? If we're gonna do what it mean, yeah. Ask more open questions than present. A closed, finished answer is the point.
Lana North:Yes, exactly. And that's that, that allowing people to come up to your level of thinking that you've had the time to, get to and arrive at, rather than expecting somebody to do that in 10 minutes, as you say, squinting at the screen, trying to read what's on there and not actually listening to what you're saying or being, prepared to contribute to a conversation about it and remembering that if you that does not pass as consultation or involving people.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. What about, should talk about a bit of conflict maybe in, in terms of, and know if you're trying to align people around the change and conflicts and how, when you have opposing views, how do you manage some of that typically?
Lana North:Yeah, that's a great one. And the first thing is to recognize that it's there, even when somebody's maybe not being particularly. Vocal about it or maybe not being vocal to you about it. So it's that, being quite in tune with the grapevine, and knowing what is, the true conversation that is happening, rather than maybe what people are prepared to say to your face or in a meeting in. Front of other people. So where you get a, if you can anticipate where some of, that conflict might arise and being able to bring the different parties together, who would have naturally, either a opposing views or have some tension that would be created if you can bring them. Together earlier, to have that open conversation. Just say, look, I know that what we're thinking here is going to potentially create some tension, but that's why we wanted to have an early conversation about your views on it. And really encourage that to happen with the different people together so that they can hear from each other as well. And while you're not necessarily going to get agreement, and that doesn't need to be the objective, if you can get a shared understanding of the complexity of what it is, then that will set you up really well. And then being able to show that you've considered both of those and, making sure that those people are aware of how you are working through it before it then gets, tabled in front of a whole range of other people and that it becomes a surprise. Then you've already gone a long way to helping in that understanding and smoothing the path so that you can ease some of the conflict. It doesn't mean that you are never going to have any. And in fact, I would say a bit of conflict is healthy because if everything feels a bit too easy, then you really need to ask yourself if you're really challenging yourself enough, if it's enough of a change to solve what it is that you're doing. But it's all in the way that you bring people together and how open you can genuinely be about what it is, that can be influenced. And that's, where being really clear about this is the bit that's up for discussion, consideration, shaping, and this is the bit that's really set that we can't change. Providing those boundaries as early as you can really helps people as well because they know then what is up for discussion and what is up for them to have input into and they know what's not. And just being clear about what's not is very helpful too. Then we just have to remember to close the feedback loop and tell people how their, concerns or feedback or suggestions has been incorporated into the final result. Or, whatever, the testing ground is that you're taking out. To test, so that they can see that it was worth their while to put the time in and put their view forward. And they have actually been considered, in shaping whatever the final outcome is.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, that's a really good one. I've seen that work really well. And you don't wait until the final reveal, for the broader audience that, you go in with a bit of a preview and you show them that stakeholder, you made a good point here in that workshop and it's been taken to account. And you just point them to the fact that they've, they were right and they've had their feedback taken onboard, so that can be really self affirming for them in that moment as well.
Lana North:Yep. Absolutely. Yeah, that's really key that feedback and being able to bring them back in and point them to where you've listened, will pay back in spades in the, actually being able to realize the benefits that you're setting out to achieve. Making it stick.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And this show all about intrapreneurship and you know how to. You know how to lead change, really, how to bring positivity and impact into your organization if you are, if you're a leader or if you're an emerging leader. And I think some of these tricks are really helpful. You know the fact that you are, you're working with your audience, you're working with your stakeholders. To that extent you're considering them to that extent can be really powerful. And you've gotta be able to lead them through some of that conflict in a way that puts you in that sort of independent facilitator. You're a bit impartial, but you can get everyone's voice heard. And then you're bringing it all together into a single narrative that everyone seems to get behind. I think that's really where it works. Best, but obviously you've gotta get through, you've gotta get through the reps and you've gotta get through those kind of heated discussions, robust conversation as they call it, to get to that outcome because, yeah. If you are that, you're the pt, basically, you've gotta get everyone through that. If you design the meeting, make sure that everyone can vent and everyone can just, say what they wanna say. And that way they're feeling heard. Yeah, it's a really good point. Are there any other, practical tips or tech techniques, frameworks? There's obviously, yeah, change management techniques and processes and frameworks and PROSCI and other things like that. But is there anything that you go to that feels helpful?
Lana North:Yeah, all those frameworks are very helpful and a great guide for working through where you need to get people to in terms of their awareness and understanding and actually being able to act on the change that you're making. I really like to. Keep things simple and challenge anybody that I'm working with say, how can we make the way that we talk about this more simple and strip out any of the jargon that's in there and strip out any of the buzzwords so that it's really simple to be able to understand. Yeah, I mean if I can explain it to my 10-year-old, then we are doing well and we should be able to as professionals. Be able to bring it back to that, denominator so that anybody can understand what it is, and then you remove the chance for confusion and for people thinking that you meant something else. So it really comes down to. The communicating, as early as possible with the people that need it, not with everyone, and as often as you can with the intent to involve them rather than to tell them. And I think if we can keep that as a guiding principle, the golden rule of communication that, that I use is communicating to involve, not to tell. If we can have that as the common thread throughout all of our activity, then that will prompt us and almost force us to be far more simple in what we're doing, which makes it easier for people to understand and easier for people to get involved. Yeah, and it also. Prompts you to look for those engagement moments where, which is often where the magic comes from. So where can I involve someone? Where can I ask for some feedback or some ideas? And it might be it. It can be really informal. But in doing that, you're building those relationships that we talked about earlier and getting people a chance to feel like they own some part of it, because all the awareness and understanding and knowledge about how to make a change. Isn't any good if people aren't willing or don't feel motivated to take on the change? They can know. They can understand and they can have the skills and abilities to act and have done all the training, but if they don't really believe in it and believe that they. Should be owning it, then all of that early work is, not going to pay off and you'll end up back where you started. So communicate to involve not to tell so that you can make the change stick, I think is my general rule to live by when it comes to rolling out change.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Love it. Love it. There's, in research, there's ethnographic research where you I involve yourself in the environment of the people that you're researching. And, I think in that sense, you've really gotta be familiar with where people are at and where they're sitting, where they're having the chats. I mostly self in those, water cooler type conversations. Go down to the cafe, go to the lobby, like wherever the chats are. I feel as a change manager, you can be either more distant or more close to some of those like rituals that the teams are taking part in. So you, I think, yeah, you've just gotta be involved and really communicate and understand where they're coming from and hear what they're doing as well. And just be more broadly aware of their context and what they're working on so that it can inform what you are doing and what you're trying to bring through. Yeah, really good. And, yeah, any other sort of big mistakes that you see intrapreneurs making when it comes to. Communicating change or, rolling things out. Any things there that you see? I think,
Lana North:yeah, I think it is. Some, something that you just said about being close to those water cooler chats and, the things that are happening at ground level. Being really careful that we don't make assumptions about that. Yeah. But knowing that you are not necessarily the most appropriate person to be at those conversations, or to be leading the communication about that. Yeah. Being. Really, proactive about finding who are the role models, whether it's, by title or more often unofficially the people within teams who others look up to and will follow their lead so they can, really be an excellent way to tap into what is really happening on the ground and the real questions that people have so that then you can, discover what are the elephants that are in the room and make sure that you address them. So having a network of people who are the unofficial leaders and role models and advocates, potential advocates that you can create on the ground and arming them to be able to take on that role so then they can be working, in partnership with you rather than potentially undermining things, in a way that you can't even see. So that, that change champions, network is something that's really worthwhile putting effort into building.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. So it goes beyond just getting people into the room to, to share their frustrations. I've seen that happen too, where the change manager is basically playing a Jerry Springer type role, and they're, just leading everyone to a fight so that they can then learn from that, listen to it, everyone watches and they feel like they've had their say, and then they move on. But you're talking about obviously longer term, more lasting and more positive impact than that. So
Lana North:that's the aim. Yes.
Chris Hudson:Nice. And, yeah, I mean we're coming to close, but yeah. I just wanna maybe touch on your personal life a little bit. You talk about the three kids, the Labrador, the fence jumping cows, and it probably gives you, an interesting perspective on managing chaos and change in its own way. So you feel like your personal side, the personal side of your life is, has really informed your professional approach as well.
Lana North:Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. The kids, they're, five, seven, and 10 now. Yeah, so certainly at that stage where we're almost about to have them all in school, and so they just. Keep everything real, don't they, as kids tend to do so they don't, they don't care if you've had a bad day or if you have to have a difficult conversation or if something's not quite going right. If they don't have, if. The right fruit that they liked in their lunchbox, then that puts all your other problems into perspective, doesn't it? So I think that, yeah, having them there to really keep you in check is quite grounding And, being able to share those experiences as well with many of your colleagues and, people around the workplace is important too for that, that human connection and, understanding. Many people have, some kind of carer role. It might not be. Being parents, it could be other roles that they have in their lives. And really acknowledging that people are just people as well. And even the executives that you're talking to, or the senior leaders that you're talking to, they're just people with other lives, outside of, outside of work. And so when we had one of our cows jump the fence into the neighbor's place and then the others followed, knowing that you had people around you who understood that you had to go and fix that situation so they didn't end up on the road. And, cause a car accident is really worthwhile. And that kind of then brings you back down to earth and realize that. In many cases, we are not, we're not risking lives in the work that we're doing. And so if we can all, remember that everyone rocks up trying to, do the best that they can and nobody's intentionally trying to make life difficult for anyone else, then, that can take us a long way. I believe in being able to find a common ground and being able to, to work through whatever the problem is that's in front of us.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. Nice point. I think that, yeah, the fact that nobody's gonna die, is important, remember in business because it can feel like, everyone's under attack. People are, you're feeling rejected, people are just disputing everything that you say some of the times. And like you say, everyone's there to do a job, right? Yeah. Exactly from perspective. And I think the one around parenting as well, if you're a parent and maybe you have managed change, all the time anyway, because you're trying to get the kids off to a, off to a thing. You're trying to get them out the door, you're trying to prepare them for that. You go through it, you then leave eventually at some point. But yeah, there's a lot of lessons from that kind of thing too.
Lana North:An hour later than you thought.
Chris Hudson:An hour later. Yeah, an hour. Pretty good going, but
Lana North:so you've already done the hardest negotiation that you'll do for the day before you've even got to work.
Chris Hudson:Before you even got to work. Yeah. And that's why everyone's so worn down. Maybe. I don't know.
Lana North:Maybe,
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Good. And, yeah, thinking back to your younger self, as you were starting. And, maybe you're an entrepreneur, you're talking about the bank or anywhere else like that. What would be one piece of advice that you'd give to your younger self about driving change from within. How would you, what would that piece of advice be?
Lana North:Yeah, I think it would be that. You don't need to have all the answers from the beginning. And in fact, it's more genuine if you don't have all the answers. I think, back to my younger self and you really wanted to make sure that everything was so well thought through and you could really show that you'd been able to think of all the different eventualities that might come up. Yeah. But actually the power in getting the benefit is in the process that you go through to get there and how you involve people in that. So don't try to have all the answers, because that actually comes across as, being disingenuous. Start with the problem that you're trying to solve, and look for opportunities to bring people in so that you can work it out together and you don't, yeah, you don't have to, and you shouldn't try to do it all yourself.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mean it's, maybe come back as a parenting as well, but that, the things that sit behind empathy, active listening, just turning up, being there, being present, listening to people that can really help too,
Lana North:yeah, that's right. Exactly. And having the village around you.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Having a village. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And finally, what would you say to people that are feeling a bit overwhelmed by change and, the pace of change or what could they be doing, do you think, to become, a more clearer, trusted, person within the context of that change, would you say?
Lana North:Yeah, that's a great question and a lot of people are feeling that at the moment. I would say. Just take the moment before you turn on your computer the next time and sit away from all the distractions that you've got and really write down all the things that are keeping you up at night and all the things that you've got coming down the pipeline of change. And take a moment to prioritize them and get really clear on which ones are moving the dial and which ones might be change for the sake of change. And then be very clear with the people that you are working most closely with about where your priorities lie and what is going to help to progress so that you can have a conversation of these are the things that are taking most of my. Attention, and this is why, and these are things that maybe we have to resequence. Maybe we have to put that on hold so that something else can happen first, or so that we can put our proper attention on something rather than doing the tick, tick, tick, move on to the next thing. We do a couple of those things really well and make sure that we see the results out the back of it. So yeah, I'd say move away from the computer. Get a priority list and really be clear on what you're trying to achieve. And when you are looking at the outcomes that you're going to get, it will become pretty clear quite quickly where your effort should be lying and what maybe is not going to move the dial. So that's a really worthwhile exercise.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. And then, yeah, there's been a big shift, I think from probably more short term metrics and KPIs, OKRs, into more outcome based discussions. And so the discussion automatically shifts from, talking about the change and why the change, what it's gonna involve. Maybe the, the hard things that are associated with it. But it's more focused on the positives and the ultimate ambition and, the outcome of the change and where it's going. So I think that can be something that hopefully feels, you can almost detach from the present little bit. Think about the longer term, think about where it's going, what. What might come from it as a really positive thing. And I think I've seen teams really respond well to that as well. So thanks for bringing that up. That's really good.
Lana North:Yeah, absolutely. It's easy to lose side off, but you're absolutely right.
Chris Hudson:Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, thanks so much Lana. I really appreciate the chat. Had a good conversation about the ins and outs of change and change management. So yeah, I really appreciate, your time today and yeah, if people wanna reach out, they've got a question or anything like that, where would they find you?
Lana North:Yeah, come and find me on LinkedIn. Lana North on LinkedIn. I'll be there. And, that's where you can, find me most of the time. So come and say hello, connect and, happy to talk. Anything change and communications related with people.
Chris Hudson:Brilliant. And cows obviously.
Lana North:And cows. Yeah, that's right. Cows and kids.
Chris Hudson:Cows and kids. Yeah. That could be, no,
Lana North:it could be. Yeah, that's right.
Chris Hudson:Thanks so much. Appreciate your time and yeah, we'll leave it there. Thanks so much.
Lana North:Thank you, Chris. It's been great.