E82 Empathy begins Within: Reconciling ‘otherness’ with Dr. Jackie King

In this episode of the Company Road podcast, Chris Hudson and Dr. Jackie King delve into the transformative concept of empathy, emphasizing the importance of self-empathy as a foundational step. 

Dr. King shares her personal journey, highlighting how her experiences shaped her understanding of otherness and the necessity of self-discovery in leadership. 

The conversation explores the application of design thinking to personal growth, the complexities of identity, and the role of empathy in enhancing workplace dynamics and social cohesion. 

We encourage listeners to embark on their own journeys of self-exploration to unlock their potential and foster better relationships.

In this episode you’ll hear about

• The importance of self-empathy as a foundation for empathy towards others.
• Dr. Jackie King's personal journey of self-discovery and overcoming feelings of otherness.
• The role of design thinking in personal growth and self-awareness.
• Challenges of maintaining authenticity and aligning personal values in professional settings.
• Embracing unique identities to enhance leadership and team dynamics.
• Strategies for intrapreneurs to leverage self-awareness for innovative leadership.
• The impact of empathy on social cohesion and organizational success.

Key links

Dr. Jackie King's Website  www.drjackieking.com.au

The Ultimate Other, Jackie’s book https://www.amazon.com.au/Ultimate-Other-Woman-Divorced-Jew/dp/1998756963 

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackiedking/ 

About our guest 

Jackie offers a rare blend of academic rigour, professional expertise and lived insight to empower individuals, teams and organisations. She uses her professional expertise and academic theory grounded in real‑world empathy practice, which she shares to support individuals and organisations to navigate change with empathy though the ultimate Leadership Framework.

Jackie believes that it is only once you have empathy for yourself, that you can be open to having empathy for others. She explores this through a design thinking process that she applied to her personal life, with a gender and cultural lens after her divorce, and has shared in her award winning book, The Ultimate Other. 

Jackie has a PhD in public policy and EMBA in organisational leadership and strategy. 

About our host

Our host, Chris Hudson, is an Intrapreneurship Coach, Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.

Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.

Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally.

Transcript

Chris Hudson: 0:00

All right. Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Company Road Podcast, where we help you navigate your career with confidence and purpose. And today we're gonna be going deep into a powerful and often misunderstood concept, which is empathy. Now, we're not just gonna be talking about empathy for others, but we're gonna be exploring a radical and transformative idea that true empathy can actually begin with a deep understanding of yourself. And I'm really interested to, to get into this topic today. Our guest today is incredible, Dr. Jackie King. And Jackie is a thought leader with a unique blend of academic rigor, professional expertise as well. You know, she's got a PhD in public policy and EMBA in organizational leadership, and she's dedicated her career to a lot of things. So helping individuals and organizations navigate change with empathy and her journey, which she's candidly shared in her award-winning book, the Ultimate Other explores a design thinking process that she applied to her own self and her own life to understand and embrace otherness, really after a major life change. So Jackie Big welcome to the show. Thanks so much for coming on.

Dr. Jackie King: 1:02

Thank you so much for having me.

Chris Hudson: 1:03

Thank you. And yeah, you're, you're here to share a bit more about that and maybe about how the framework can help other people unlock their potential, build better relationships and lead with true purpose. And I wanna just kind of open up the topic around empathy and self empathy, I should say self empathy. And yeah, I mean, you, you say yourself, that true empathy begins with having empathy for yourself. And maybe in the context of your own story, you could explain a little bit about what that means and, and why it's been such a critical first step, do you think?

Dr. Jackie King: 1:33

Yes, of course. So, I mean, the premise of the book really and of the work that I am doing now is that you can't have empathy for others until you have empathy for yourself and empathy for yourself. Involves self care. It involves understanding yourself, your triggers, your values, your biases, your the things that are important to you. And my view is that until you understand yourself well, and you can treat yourself with care and compassion and empathy, your cup. Is not full enough to be able to do the same for others. So it's a little bit like the message they give you in the airplane when you are doing the safety drill around putting your own oxygen mask on yourself before you help others. And, you know, for, for all of time philosophers have said that knowing yourself is the highest form of knowledge. Aristotle or Pedro said that in different ways. So it's really quite simple, but it's something that we forget in the craziness of. Today's modern world and the stress that we all experience across the different domains of our lives.

Chris Hudson: 2:36

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe, maybe you'd like to share some of your story in, in finding that for yourself. If, if that's the case, then when did you make the step to, to uncover that for yourself, do you think?

Dr. Jackie King: 2:48

So I think the trigger event in my life was my divorce, which was about eight years ago. And an understanding that I kind of didn't really feel that I fit in anywhere. So I'd always felt a little bit different. You know, I'm a first generation Australian. My grandparents came from four different countries and four different visa status categories. And so, I, I grew up. In the country, but I went to school in the city. There were lots of different ways that I felt different growing up. I was the first person in my family to finish school, let alone go to university, finish an undergraduate, and then go on to postgraduate degree completion. So I feel that sense of belonging was really quite elusive for me. And then of course once I hit post university studies when I was at work, the gender lens really came into play as a young lawyer. And some of the experiences I had in that environment where I had primarily much older men in a very patriarchal environment, asking me what I was cooking for dinner that night and mistaking me for someone who wasn't a, a lawyer in the firm. And so, those kind of experiences of feeling like I didn't belong or that I wasn't part of the system and has very much influenced me. Then of course, once I got divorced, being a single mom, being a woman on my own and having to kind of money. As the primary breadwinner all made me feel different to, you know, the people that I associated with in my social context. So kind of within my relationships across my social interactions in my professional life, I've always felt different. And so that otherness kind of turned into a internal narrative in my head around my worth and my value. And that of course, meant that I was my own worst critic. And even though I had been very successful in many, many ways, and it was never really enough, and I realized that I was actually trying to fold into what other people were expecting from me, what society was expecting from me, and that I wasn't actually being kind to myself in that process and I wasn't listening to myself and I wasn't, you know, reduce the criticisms of those internal narratives that were going on by. In my mind internally for me, empathy for myself, it's not necessarily about you know, not setting boundaries or accepting bad behavior or giving myself over until I become a shadow of myself, which I've done. It doesn't mean you have to agree with everybody. It doesn't mean you can't upset people. It just means that you really know and understand who you are so that you can make. And smart decisions about how you wanna live your life, what success looks like, and what brings you joy.

Chris Hudson: 5:31

Yeah, yeah. No, that's, that's a really great answer. Thank you for sharing that, Jackie. And I feel like, I feel like the, the world of work is often uniform or, or the perception of the world of work is that it's a uniform thing. You know, you, you work as a company, you join a company, you, you observe, you know, what you think is the, the way things are. Sometimes that's, probably closer to your own, you know, your own sense of what's right and, and what should be done or, or where your values sit. But in other cases, that isn't the case. And yeah, I'm sorry to hear that you, you went through that in your younger years, you know, in your professional life because otherness, it feels like it's more, more celebrated now with diversity being more on the agenda. But, but even so that, that does feel, that, feel, feel to be that uniformity that we're always struggling with and coming to terms with, you know, how much do I toe the line and fit in with that? Or how much should I represent myself or my true self in this situations? Have there been any situations, you know, that you remember where you've had to make that call? You know, where you've said, okay, well I'm gonna represent myself and my true self in this way. In other, in other situations, people may not always do that. So is has that been something that you've been consciously aware of now since, since you know, the self discovery in a way that you've described?

Dr. Jackie King: 6:50

Absolutely. And you know, over the last few years, it's happened more recently with polarization of views in the workforce and trying to, kind of draw a line between my personal views and the views of the organization that I work for and my role as a leader and how to bring people along on a journey around purpose and the values of an organization if in, I don't necessarily agree with decisions that have been made. And so that has happened in a number of contexts around. I kind of the social purpose of institutions. I've spent a very long time working in different executive roles in tertiary higher education, tertiary institutions. And in the current climate, I found that I haven't necessarily personally agree with some of the decisions that have been made either within the unit that I've been meeting or more broadly. And so. It's a very difficult thing not to be able to bring yourself full self to work or not to be able to share how you really feel about certain decisions sometimes because of things that are happening in other parts of the world that you might have a particular interest in. That can't play out, shouldn't play out in the way that people work together. So, and there've been a number of times where I have had to kind of stop, think, understand what the various views on a certain matter are and what's in line with the. Values and the purpose of the organization that I'm working for, and to be able to try and align those both internally to be able to keep going back to work every day, but also in terms of how I lead the team and how they understand their function and their purpose within that organization.

Chris Hudson: 8:33

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, it feels like there's a process which may be, you know, it appears to be somewhat. Somewhat visible once it translates into some action there and there's some alignment and people are behind it. But actually there's quite a lot of invisible work it feels like, that you are, you know, you're carrying that load. There's a lot of talk around the invisible loads that people carry at the moment. Not just in neuro neurodiversity, but in some other areas too. It just feels like, you know, it's not spoken about as to what people are having to deal with, but it's assumed that you'll get through that and that you'll just make the right, you know that you'll, you'll find the right path, you'll make the right decisions, and that you can get through it. But it's, it's taking its toll it feels like, from a mental, mental health point of view on a lot of people. Is that what you're saying? It.

Dr. Jackie King: 9:16

No, it can do. Absolutely. I mean, I think it's really just about caring which is sometimes objectively lacking in the workplace and sometimes even at home. And there's definitely a mental load that I carry across all the domains of my life. And, you know, I think the way I deal with this from a entrepreneurial perspective is to be curious. And I've found that having stories to share and being asking people about their stories and understanding. Who they are, what's important to them without necessarily having a, an agenda, a productivity agenda or an efficiency agenda. But actually getting to know people actually engenders a desire for them to engage in voluntary discretion and they're at work and to increase their performance because they feel that they are heard and that they have agency to share their own experiences and with the group. And so I found that that is. Yes, there's a mental load, but there's also a lot of beauty in being able to support people to be themselves in terms of what they share and how they should and how they get to know each other. And so I think that leads to, you know, better performance and cultural transformation in terms of developing a, a cohort or a group of people we work together and how they work together for that organization.

Chris Hudson: 10:33

Yeah, definitely. I, I like that point. The fact that otherness can be, it can feel like otherness exactly that until it feels like something that brings people together. Because you know, your representation of yourself can obviously lead to finding common ground. You know, if you put yourself out there as people say, then you don't know what people are gonna respond to unless you put it out there. So, if the otherness is represented in a way that, you know, brings people closer, then that can be an incredibly positive force as well. Don't you think? A

Dr. Jackie King: 11:01

hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, I don't mean otherness. When I say otherness, I mean, what makes you, you, what makes you unique? You know, what's your strategic advantage? And sometimes that's where you come from. That's sometimes a particular experience or a particular diversity that you have. But there are lots of other aspects to that as well that don't have to fall into a publicly perceived category of otherness. So, I feel like. Otherness is something that another word for it really is uniqueness and it's just strength. And it's your particular combination of your lived experience and your personality and your education and your technical skills that all come together to make you you. And so how do you leverage that in a corporate or on, and enterprise environment for a strategic advantage rather than being ashamed or thinking that you are second. How do you flip it to actually show your strength and your resilience and your unique contribution?

Chris Hudson: 11:57

Yeah, yeah. No, I love that. Thank you. I was gonna ask you, I mean, a lot of people on the show and a lot of people in my network actually are practitioners within design or design thinking and human sense design, you know, some of those areas and. It's a bit like consultants that don't listen to their own advice, and they kind of, they do a lot of that work for other people, but they don't often shine the, the light on their own situation. So what I've really been intrigued by in your book and how you set things up in describing your own process for self, self-examination in a way is, has been that, you know, you've taken design thinking, you've applied that process to yourself for self, self empathy. So do you wanna talk through how that all came about and, and what you did?

Dr. Jackie King: 12:39

So, I mean, the book, I've got the book here. It's called The Ultimate Other. You can get it on Amazon if you're so inclined. So basically the book start is a really raw and angry journal that I've been writing for many years as a release to, it's. Cathar Cathar narrative around my life and what wasn't working and what I wanted to work. And through my work in social innovation, I came across the framework of design thinking. And of course, the first step of design thinking is having empathy. And now in the business context is having empathy for the people you are trying to design for, whether that's a program or project, or a service or a product. Over time as I learned about design thinking and I've only did a number of certifications in it, and I understood that actually maybe I could be the person who I was serving in this process. And so if you took an empathy map, for example, which I do with my people who participate in my courses, I put myself in the middle of that empathy map and I'm the problem to be solved. And there are lots of books that take the, framework of design thinking and apply it to the personal. But what they generally do it is apply it to one domain. So your career or your relationships, or your parenting or your finances, and you know, they don't take it as a holistic approach and they don't look at it from the perspective of an internal, of an internal narrative. And that's what I needed to solve for. I knew that my life was compartmentalized and had many disparate intersectionalities of identity, and I wanted to understand how I could put myself into the world, understanding them and having them aligned and coherent and integrated into a whole me. And so that's really was based on my own need and recognizing my own need. And the process of using design thinking as a framework for the book was actually a wonderful way of letting go of things because, stories and examples in the diary and choose that I included, they either fit into the design process or they didn't, and they were relevant to that stage of the design process or they weren't. So it was like a literal letting go when I had to cut out things from the book around whether they fit into the design. Stages of the design process or not. So it served two purposes really. It gave a book structure, but it also helped me let go of a lot of things, both in terms of my energy symbolically as well as the words in the book.

Chris Hudson: 15:00

Hmm hmm. Yeah, I mean it's it's interesting, isn't it? I think these frameworks, although they, they feel like quite, often used in some cases, but they can be really helpful as a, as a way of almost taking all of the emotional charge out of some of your thought processes. Maybe sometimes it feels like if it's a, if it's a good way to kind of brain dump all of the facts down, the things that you're thinking. And, and just organize your thinking in some sort of way, you know, from journaling into that, then it feels like it's, it's, it's helpful, but I'm always also curious to know about how easy you found that step. Did, I mean, just to kind of distance yourself from yourself and jump out of your own skin to be able to, you know, just look at yourself to that, to that level of detail that, how did you find it?

Dr. Jackie King: 15:42

It was really fascinating actually, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, because. I couldn't find a way to structure my writing before I utilized that framework. It was kind of in chronological order and it was way too much. And it really wouldn't have made any sense turning one foot me. So in it was a wonderful way, as you say, of getting some distance and to having a structure that I didn't have to determine in applying different examples and different thoughts and, within that framework. So that made it really easy and there are lots of different. Business models and approaches that are used in applying an application to individuals personal lives. You know, there's project management theories, there's KPIs. There's a whole range of different things that people can take from the business world to put order and structure into their personal lives if they want to. And there's lots of that's been written about all of those. So in that sense it was really quite liberating. But actually the design process itself, like the word empathy. Probably didn't come into the writing that I had done before I came into that framework. And so then knowing that there was a step where I had to empathize for the person I was trying to serve or who was the problem, which in this case was me, actually gave different language to what I had had, I had utilize before I applied the framework. So it was like a light bulb going off about how I could talk about how I wanted to treat myself and what I needed to do to support myself through that stage of the design process. And actually after the manuscript was done, I put it through an and, and, you know, the prompts that are generated ask what are the themes? So the notion of otherness hadn't really come up in. The LLM spat it back to me. Yeah. One of the things was otherness, and it's not something I had thought of. I had, I'd used the word different a lot and unique a lot, but the concept of otherness came through some of the obviously came through in the writing, but it wasn't expressed. And so they were the two different ways through the framework and also through the, AI that I, there was really strengthening themes in book.

Chris Hudson: 17:51

Yeah. Yeah. So AI was the, the kind of partner in crime, silent or otherwise? Well, it was, was

Dr. Jackie King: 17:56

because it's, yeah, it's, it was actually fascinating. It really took me by surprise because you're so in the weeds. You've got no distance from what you're writing. A, it's your lived experience, so you're writing about your life, and B, it's something that you spend years and years and years on. It's like having homework in your head all of the time, so you can't distance yourself in that sense. You're in the weeds of it. So to have. Something, a tool to like lift it up and to take it back up into a higher thematic level rather than the weeds of the details. It was so very liberating. And then that light bulb kind of, you know, the, then the naming of the, the TWA and everything else came after that.

Chris Hudson: 18:34

Yeah. Nice, nice. Yeah. I see I see people posting about asking, asking AI very existential type questions. You know, who am I, I've been using, I've been talking to you for two years. Who am I really? What do I, you know, what do I care about in the world? You know, things like that. Yeah. I mean,

Dr. Jackie King: 18:50

I think danger with ai, the, the, the danger with ai, of course is that it has no wisdom. And, and I think over time it will more and more, and it has no, yeah, doesn't have emotions, so. That, you know, having, taking that element out of it and them, and it just literally, you know, analyzing it on the prima facie, on, you know, the face of what it's provided with in terms of the source the source documentation is really fascinating. Yeah,

Chris Hudson: 19:15

yeah. Yeah, definitely. So, we've talked about a few steps in that, you know, just for the listeners out there, what, what do you feel is like a natural first step or way to get started with some of this self-discovery? Like, what do you think is a good starting point?

Dr. Jackie King: 19:28

Well, you really need to understand who you are. So identity for me and in the book and in my programs is really the first point of core and identity is obviously very complex and there are lots of tools to help you articulate your various identities. But the exercise in that is really understand the plurality of identity, intersectionality of identity. What is consistent, what is inconsistent and what doesn't serve? What serves you still, where are the gaps and what doesn't serve you anymore? And so there's many layer levels of identity. One is how you see yourself. The next might be how the world sees you in different classes of identity. And then the third is how, you know, you interact with institutions and organizations and more broadly in society. And so that's already a multitude of different identities. And then you have a different identity for your, you know, if you've got multiple kids, each of them have got different. Aspects to their beings that you know, if you dig deep evidence, different identities. So once you've established a broad range of identities, they're almost like all the different stakeholders that you would be dealing with if you were working in design. And then each of them had their own personas and each of them belonged to different communities. And once you'd put that all up, like in a mind map, it's kind of overwhelming and how complex we see ourselves. And that's one data source only. It's what we see in ourselves. And then we need to ask, you know, what do our family see in us? What do our peers see in us? And the whole ecosystem starting from, you know, your internal narrative and through the social interactions that you have with your family and your friends and your communities. And then at work through your colleagues, your peers, your bosses, your organizations, and what are the perceptions of you. So we try through this process to un understand the way, the way. Yourself and the different dimensions that you have, but then also understand how others might perceive you based on your intentions versus your behaviors. And there are exercises that you know you can go through and prompts you can use to help you articulate that. And then un underpinning all of that, of course of values, your internal narrative traumas the experiences that you've had that have been both positive and negative in shaping how you. Kind of feel about yourself and the narrative that you, that you said to yourself inside your head. So that's really very much about knowing yourself. And sometimes that can be really confronting.

Chris Hudson: 21:53

Yeah. Yeah. I mean that, I mean, the way you described, it's very articulate. I feel like that would be a lot to take on board. That would be, yeah. Yes. And then you're taking on everyone else's bag. Not baggage, but that was the wrong word. But like if I've got. 10 personas and everyone else has got 10 personas and I'm working with 20 different people. There's a lot of personas and a lot of things to, to kind of take on board. So how do you manage some of that side of things?

Dr. Jackie King: 22:17

Well, you generally work with one at a time. You just choose the one that's most relevant. Okay.

Chris Hudson: 22:20

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Jackie King: 22:21

Because you are, you are through this process designing a how might we prob problem to solve. And so you don't have to do it at the same time. It's a learning process. It's an iterative process. We can't do it all at the same time. So we choose the one that we wanna deal with first, and then we develop a how might we, and you know, and we work together to test different. Ideas in blue sky thinking in the ideation phase, bring it back down to what's real. Make it an action, a commitment to action for the lower hanging fruit. Then see what we can plan over time for the bigger change. And then we start all over again.

Chris Hudson: 22:59

Yeah. Yeah. Nice. I mean, not everyone will be familiar with how might we, but maybe you could just describe that and also what, what a typical, how might we statement might feel like in this space of self, self empathy. Like what are some of the things that might, that that might throw out, do you think? As an example, it doesn't have to be real.

Dr. Jackie King: 23:16

Well, I've got lots of real examples actually. Some of them are really. Like, yeah, they're really about the mana of your daily life. Like it might be how do I, how do I get my kids to help more around the house? How do I delegate, how do I manage my time better? How do I balance the various elements of my life? So they're quite personal questions. And then more broadly, like how might we change a system? How might we. Serve an underserved population. So it really depends on what the individual is coming with for themselves. How might I get a new job? Or how might I might, how might I progress my career? How might I learn how to hold space or public spec? And so the skill in the program is to be able to know what it is when we go through a prioritization process to help understand what it is that you wanna focus on first. And so for those who aren't so familiar with design thinking, once you understand the, the pains and the gains and the needs and the wants of the people you're trying to serve, in which case is you, and you can then. Understand what it is that they might want to change or what they might need in the provision of a service. And so you are flipping it to put yourself in the position of that stakeholder or that beneficiary or that end user, and you're asking, well, how might we achieve whatever it is that they need? For them on their behalf.

Chris Hudson: 24:43

Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. I love that. I mean, I've, I've been working with these tools for years and years, and I've, I've never tried on myself, so it's really lovely to explain it and, and talk about the possibilities. It's kind of, it's got my mind just bubbling away as to what, what it might reveal if I did it for myself. So thank you.

Dr. Jackie King: 25:00

Well, I, no, thank you. I mean, I've had a lot of people come and say, that's quite different.

Chris Hudson: 25:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I love it. So you start with yourself and obviously it sounds like you. It's almost a journey from what's deep inside you out, back out into the world because you are, you're going through the steps of understanding yourself to then take back into the next level. It might be one or two people, and then out into the, out into the organization and, and understanding some of those dynamics. Is that, is that roughly how you, you see the, the course kind of playing out? That is

Dr. Jackie King: 25:28

absolutely right. So like there's an ecosystem from me to we, and I truly believe in the power of empathy and otherness together. Kind of producing flow, flow internally, flow of your relationships and flow in terms of social cohesion as well, because that, that empathy for self allows you to have empathy for others. That empathy for others allows you to hold paradox, to hold tension with people who might think differently to you or might work differently to you or might not be including you in various things. And that's where storytelling and kind of the dignity of difference comes into play. To be able to make change.

Chris Hudson: 26:07

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. All right, well, best to get started. I reckon I think with some of that, a lot of people have got a lot more self discovery to do is my, is my massive hunch. It's not, not really a hypothesis. I reckon everyone's gotta do a bit more self discovery, self empathy and, and take it out into the world. So I think it's pretty good. So. In terms of like how you see it playing out once you see that step happen between the individual and then, and then into the, we so into the organization and, you know, what are, what are some of the things that you see play out and how do you feel like that can really help with team dynamics or maybe leadership effectiveness or, you know, some of those areas you've worked in, organizational leadership and public policy. So I'm just kind of interested to see like how you see it, how you see it playing out in the way that you've described it.

Dr. Jackie King: 26:52

So I think once people go through that process, they're willing to let go of a lot of things. They're willing to look a lot, a lot more at purpose. And they often have a revised internal narrative of themselves. So, for example, in my case. I've gone through this process a couple of times. Also, it doesn't mean that you don't do it once necessarily and then have it over and done with for the rest of your days. It's something that as your circumstances change, you might need to reassess. Or as you look at a different element of your life, you might need to reassess and, and so for me, my internal narrative change from being kind of just smart, which never, ever made me happy academically. Smart two, and I don't think that's particularly always the most useful kind of smart. To being brave. Brave because I've stepped into this space, brave because I've left relationships that weren't good for me or because I've left jobs that weren't bringing me joy anymore. And so I feel like that's kind of the ultimate leadership capability is the ability to change and to have your mind changed about yourself and about others. And then also once you start aligning yourself with your values. And it kind of develops an integrity that plays out in work and in the way you interact with people as well around purpose. And you kind of, once you've aligned yourself with purpose and it's a north star, you also let go of a lot of the stuff that might have, otherwise you've a little bit crazy that you might get caught up in. And so it's almost a little, it's almost like, don't sweat this. Small stuff. And when you understand where your joy comes from, then you want to curate that and you wanna develop that. And that's what you focus on. What makes you feel good instead of all the things that are making you feel maybe not as good.

Chris Hudson: 28:37

Yeah. Nice, nice. How long does it take this process? I mean, it is it, it ages or how, how does it Yeah. How does it play out?

Dr. Jackie King: 28:43

It's a lifelong process. I think

Chris Hudson: 28:45

It's always happening. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We never know each other. We never know ourselves to that extent. Always have to re re-look at it, right?

Dr. Jackie King: 28:53

Yeah. I'd like to think that you have a little break sometimes and you get to consolidate and then you need to recalibrate again. And maybe my life has been a little bit more tumultuous, or maybe I'm just more honest about it being more tumultuous and. What you see on social media is, you know, not what the reality for most people is. So it's also about, you know, one of the biggest lessons I heard is, especially as a younger woman, going and listening to people who are considered to be role models and then telling you, what not to do. Get to, they say the pinnacle of their career, but the words around what they should do were weren't there. And so it's only, it's like you're getting one side of the coin. You're being told what not to do. Don't say sorry, you know, don't apologize for they you, but they're not actually instructing or guiding us to. To do. So there's still a vacuum there for young people or young women in particular in terms of how they conduct themselves, how they engage with the world. And so I think this process kind of alleviates that gap because you're nourishing yourself and you're not relying on others to tell you that.

Chris Hudson: 30:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. So self was a confirmation bias. And obviously, you know, looking for, looking for external encouragement as opposed to knowing that you and yourself are right. It's, yeah. I mean

Dr. Jackie King: 30:12

one of the beautiful things about this process is that it really does let you go of all the traditional measures of success. You know, particularly around money and status and, you know, you are really looking at relationships, you're looking at impact, you're looking at at joy, and how you feel about yourself. And I would argue, and certainly a lot of philosophers like our, who wrote the Book of Life and, and various others have kind of confirmed in their thinking as well that the, that's what's far more important, the legacy that you have for the impact that you have on people and the impact we have on individual trajectories and the work that you, in supporting others to be their best selves as well. Yourself and is far more rewarding in terms of legacy than some of those more traditional measures of success by those traditional measures. That'd be a dismal failure.

Chris Hudson: 31:04

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny what we measure ourselves by feel like that is also, yeah. It feels like it's a, a constant, it feels like it's sometimes. Just not something that we can influence terribly, but this feels like you're very much taking your control back and you are obviously thinking about it, you know, through a different lens and, and through, through a lens that it lays down the path too. Finding, finding value for yourself really, which is where the, which is where, where the heart of it lies. You know, it's not, it's not for other people. It's in, in the beginning. It, it might lead to that, obviously, but it starts with yourself, which I think is really, you know, it's quite refreshing, really.

Dr. Jackie King: 31:39

Well, it's certainly given my life a new lease.

Chris Hudson: 31:42

Yeah. Good, good. Yeah. I mean, particularly for people that have been through struggle, is there, do you feel like it takes a big, I mean, you've had. Significant life changes and and things to deal with. Do you feel like it takes one of those big curve balls to kind of spark people, you know, to push them into action? Do you feel like it needs to be that, or do you feel like people can start anywhere

Dr. Jackie King: 32:03

sad and aware? I mean, it can be as simple as meditating twice a day. That can really affect how you feel about yourself and how you feel about your life. Yeah, I think it's generally true that it takes a bit of a. A life change or a challenge that might send you in a bit of a spiral to feel the need to stop and reassess your life and your contribution in it. So I'd say there's probably a fair point that it's people who go through some kind of crisis or transformation, need for transformation that kind of go through this process. But having said that, I think in today's modern, wild, old, most everybody will experience something, whether it's their health. The physical health and mental health, their kids needing work not panning out the way they thought they would burn out, the mental load. All of those things all micro stressors that build up and build up in your body as well. If they're not huge events in and of themselves, the micro nature of it still accumulates and still has an impact. So I think everybody at some point comes to face themselves in the matter.

Chris Hudson: 33:08

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess they, they kind of, some of these moments congregate in a certain point, point of life, right? So, big life event, whatever you wanna call it. Midlife crisis, you know, anything, anything of that ilk. It feels like there are plenty of, plenty of ways in which you could start this process anytime. If you have a hunch that you want to, you know, explore, explore yourself a little bit further, you know, and, and understand yourself a little bit more.

Dr. Jackie King: 33:32

That's right.

Chris Hudson: 33:33

Yeah. Okay. And yeah, I suppose, do, do you see that being any kind of broader application, so it starts with the self, it might go into organizations. Do you feel like teams can get behind it as a whole? Do, do you see any of that kind of Yeah. Influence.

Dr. Jackie King: 33:48

Absolutely. So I think that I think that this is the, like really the ultimate leadership capability. And I think that once you have empathy for yourself, you can have empathy for other individuals. And then once you have empathy for other individuals, you can then have empathy for the groups that they might represent. So then there's communal interaction, communal empathy, or group empathy. And then kind of spills out into. Social cohesion. So actually I think that empathy is the key skill in being able to have deliberate di difficult conversations, whether it's performance management at work or whether it's your neighbor who doesn't come from the same culture and background as you. And it, it's those, that ability to have empathy, to share your story, to be vulnerable, and to be able to listen empathetically to the stories of others for understanding. Which is, you know, we don't always do far from, having a hundred percent clean record in that space. But is the ability to be comfortable enough with yourself to have enough of an open mind for that to be changed through conversation and through dialogue and through respecting and, and being empathetic for other people. So, in my view that, empathy, empathy seemed to training empathy, facilitation, empathy within groups. Actually the key that holds our social capital and our social fabric together, or not as Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I, yeah, I don't, I think there's a lot of lip service there in, in the way that, you know, things are set up, you know, for training, learning development, l and d is like a classic example of this, where it's, it's just, it's just set out a certain way. It has been done for a long way, you know, where people are expected to learn and, and just absorb, absorb information, and then. You know, the, the real change that would need to happen for that outcome to be realized is, is lying far deeper than what that training is set up for. So I feel like some of the things that you are describing actually would, would get much closer to that outcome if, if it was all set out that way, it. It feels like it's, it's too prescriptive otherwise. And it, it's all broad brush, you know, everyone just gets the same training depending on when they, when they start, when they finish. But if you're really understanding the people first, then, then that could unlock a huge learning and development potential as well as, you know, team retention, engagement, like all of those things. It feels like it's a Pandora's box of opportunity in a way. What do you think? It's lots of, there's lots of evidence and data around the return on investment for empathy in the corporate context, including,

Chris Hudson: 36:18

yeah. R

Dr. Jackie King: 36:19

Yep, absolutely. The term on. Exactly. And there's, there's a lot of data around, as you said, an engagement about retention around the cost of absenteeism being reduced.

Chris Hudson: 36:32

And then

Dr. Jackie King: 36:33

on the flip side of the positive stuff like collaboration. Innovation, creativity, curiosity, all those human elements that we know are still gonna be relevant and increasingly relevant in, in terms of the workflows of the future and the human skills that we need to retain in the world of digitization and automation. There's a huge case for it, and there's a a huge amount of evidence around the, something called the empathy deficit, which is where we know these are the skills of the future, but the pressure of our lives today. Mean that we're not actually able to enact that or enact that or embed that in our lives because we're under too much pressure. Yeah, and so, and so the question is, we've got one set of data that tells us that this is of benefit. There is a return on investment and use the skill of the future, but we've got the practical realities of the workplace that don't facilitate that at the moment, by and large. And so, my role and what I would like to put out into the world is, well, how do we bridge that gap?

Chris Hudson: 37:32

Mm.

Dr. Jackie King: 37:33

That for me has to start with that inward focus, but then also within your teams and within the boards, within your executive and context. So there's lots of room there to investigate how we. Kind of bridge the gap and the benefit and how we bring them closer together for the individuals, but for the business itself as well.

Chris Hudson: 37:57

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the, the business it feels like is the business side is, I, it's, it's a bit of a, it's a bit of a catalyst for some of this to, to happen in some ways. You know, it could be the opportunity to, to really help people cement, you know, where, where they're adding in value in that.'cause, you know, we spend a lot of time doing work right through our, through our lives. So if you can get that part right, it's a huge contributing factor. Whereas if you can't get it right, then there's a huge deficit, like you say.

Dr. Jackie King: 38:25

Yep, that's exactly right. And there, there, there are studies that show that that empathy centered activity and that focus on. Empathy and understanding. And when you, I mean the empathy that I've talked about for yourself is one kind of empathy, but when you have empathy for others, there's actually, according to all the research, three different elements of empathy for others. One is a cognitive one, like do you understand what their experiences are? The other is an emotional one. Can you feel what they're saying? But the third one is an action. How do I go in and support those individuals who's. Who I understand and who I have feelings of, you know, who I have an emotional response to. How do we bring that together and in action to support them in the workplace or in communities or in whatever environmental context we find themselves, we find themselves, them, and us in.

Chris Hudson: 39:15

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it feels like we would definitely need to extend beyond ourselves to realize some of those possible outcomes, which, which is obviously the goal, but yeah, it does start, start with oneself.

Dr. Jackie King: 39:27

It also starts with realizing that we have generally more in common than not. I mean, especially in the work and we're all working for the same employer, regardless of what level in that organization you're at, we've all got a contribution to make to that organization. And so if we even in the workplace, start from that premise. That already reduces a lot of difference.

Chris Hudson: 39:47

Yeah. Which comes back to what we were starting with really around this otherness point.'cause you come back full circle to that, you know, the, the otherness reveals points of togetherness in, in number of ways. You know, it feels like that that would all be, you know, if you put everyone's uniqueness into the, into a big bubble in the sky, there'll be a lot of group. I'm thinking, I'm thinking about mirror board now. There'll

Dr. Jackie King: 40:09

be a lot of grouping of similar

Chris Hudson: 40:11

things, right?

Dr. Jackie King: 40:12

Correct. We'd realize how much we actually have in common, but I think the word otherness is used purposefully in my context. Because the word belonging, which is generally seen, I don't really consider belonging to be the flip side of otherness. I think maybe inclusion might be, but I, you know, I think there's a lot of risk with the word belonging, because belonging automatically excludes others. And just because you belong to something doesn't mean that it's good for you. And nor doesn't mean that it's good for society. So, you know, yeah, you're right. You think conspiracy things, these are all for people who want to belong. And so,

Chris Hudson: 40:49

yeah,

Dr. Jackie King: 40:50

they're around belonging I think is challenging. So I try to stay away from that.

Chris Hudson: 40:54

Yeah, I mean these things are quite easy to introduce and they, you know, people wouldn't necessarily realize that a word like that would be divisive'cause it sounds so well intended. It's a, it's a hard one belonging, you know, inclusion, obviously with inclusion comes exclusion. You know, there, there are a lot of kind of opposites to play in each of these words in, in the way that it's described. So, yeah, it's a hard one to navigate. Yeah.

Dr. Jackie King: 41:16

Yeah. So, I mean, I think otherness and uniqueness we're all unique in our own way, and it's just about how we align it. And how they articulated in a way that shows restrict resilience and strength and understanding rather than making someone feel bad about themselves.

Chris Hudson: 41:33

Yeah, yeah. Or, or even just around acceptance, you know, it, it's maybe more around mindset than what characterizes those defining attributes, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah. Great. Well. I, I think it's been a fascinating chat. Thanks so much, Jackie, for coming on and that we've, we've had a good kind of exploratory chat around self empathy and you know, where it might take us as individuals where it might be applied within businesses. What it means for the future. Future we can solve for the future if we, if we address ourselves first and, and get to get to the bottom what it is we should all be doing. I think so. Yeah. It feels like it's a, it's a really, yeah, it's, it's bag of potential with it. I, I feel really excited about it. So thanks so much for coming up to the show and sharing.

Dr. Jackie King: 42:13

Thank you so much. Be having. It's been a pleasure.

Chris Hudson: 42:16

Alright. And if people wanna reach out with a question, Jackie, what, where will they find you?

Dr. Jackie King: 42:19

They can contact me through my website, which is www dr au, or email me at contact.

Chris Hudson: 42:27

Okay, wonderful. Thanks so much. We'll leave it there.

Dr. Jackie King: 42:29

Thank you.