The Company Road Podcast
In this podcast we’ll be exploring what it takes to change a company. Taking the big steps, or the smaller steps in between.
This one’s for the intrapreneurs. You’ll be getting to know some big, brave and darn right outrageous personalities, luminaries, pioneers of business and hearing what they’ve done to fix the thorniest of problems within organisations.
The Company Road Podcast
E84 Dane Maddams: Wading through the 'Messy Middle' of Culture and Product
In this episode of The Company Road Podcast, Chris Hudson dives into the heart of organisational success with Dane Maddams, Director of Product at Culture Amp and Amplitude Product 50 leader.
Dane specialises in the "messy middle": the ambiguous, unspoken tensions, and trust gaps that quietly hold firms back. Drawing on a fascinatingly diverse background from Toyota to the world of gaming, Dane shares his unique perspective on making high performance more human, actionable, and scalable. The chat explores the hidden costs of ignoring workplace psychology, the true nature of organisational change (spoiler: it's not a mere slogan), and how we can leverage AI to augment human connection, not replace it.
This is a must-listen for product leaders, managers, and anyone keen to learn about the subtle shifts that differentiate a good company from a truly exceptional one.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
- The definition of the "messy middle" (trust gaps, unspoken tension) and why it's the single biggest blocker to company success.
- Why real organisational change is slow, deliberate work—not just a slogan or a major re-org.
- How to balance the power of AI in performance tools (like 1:1s and goals) with the essential need for human connection
- Lessons in efficiency, process, and human-centred design learned from Dane’s time at Toyota and in the VFX/Gaming industry.
- The critical importance of the "oxygen mask analogy" for leaders to prevent burnout and ensure sustained high performance.
- How to build performance tools that are truly human-centred and actionable.
Key Links
Dane Maddams' LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danemaddams/
Culture Amp: https://www.cultureamp.com/
About our guest
Dane Maddams is Director of Product at Culture Amp and one of Amplitude’s Product 50 leaders. He spends his time in the messy middle of product, culture, and psychology, building tools that power performance, 1-on-1s, goals, and development. Dane is passionate about making high performance more human, actionable, and scalable. Drawing on his background in structured environments like Toyota and fast-paced industries like Gaming/VFX, he is deeply curious about the intersection of empathy, AI, and sustainable high performance.
About our host
Our host, Chris Hudson, is an Intrapreneurship Coach, Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.
Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.
Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally.
For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at https://companyroad.co/podcast/
Hey everyone and welcome back to the Company Road Podcast where we help you navigate your career with confidence and purpose. And today we're gonna be diving into the heart of what makes teams and companies truly successful with a particular lean towards a certain area. We're gonna reveal that in a minute. But we're often focusing on really big strategies and flashy technologies. But our guest today really specializes in the messy middle and the hidden problems really, and the unspoken tensions that quietly hold companies back in some sort of ways. So I really wanna welcome today our guest, Dane Maddams Dane, welcome to the show. Thanks, Chris for having me. It's good to be here. Thanks Dane. And yeah, you're director of Product at CultureAmp, one of Amplitude's product 50 leaders as well. You've been, you've been highly praised for the work that you're doing at CultureAmp, which I'm really looking forward to hearing about. And yeah, you spend your time at the intersection of product, culture, psychology, you're building tools that can really help. Make high performance, more human, actionable, scalable. And you've got a background, a really interesting, diverse background that spans from Toyota to the world of gaming and VFX. And, you, you're really deeply curious about how empathy and AI can create more sustainable and connected ways of working and yeah, there's lots we can talk about. So we're gonna have a conversation that's really gonna challenge how the listeners think I think around performance, teamwork, and the future of work and what we all need to do instead of panicking about AI taking all of our jobs. So, maybe, maybe we just start with a, a really broad open question for you, Dane. So what would you say, what would you say characterizes you as an intrapreneur? What's, what's, what's at the heart of your approach, do you think?
Dane Maddams:I think a, a deep rooted curiosity and empathy for wherever people are at, I guess the humanity of, of it all. And that can change from, the fact. That we all just inherently wanna support each other and do good. But there's a lot of barriers in between that. And it could be sort of unspoken tensions or, or unrealistic expectations or high performance that may not be particularly sustainable or just, hidden agendas and things of that nature that kind of get in the way of all of us sort of, doing what we all wanna do, which is, get along and, and, and do work that where we feel valued and provide value as well. So I think, I think the core of it all is empathy. I think I've seen oftentimes incredible leaders that, that, that really lean into it and, and others that really lack it. And I think that I. I've seen the, the impact both positively, negatively, that it has both individually and in teams. And how potent it can be when it's, when it's when it's used well.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And where did your curiosity or or passion for empathy begin? Like, do you feel like it's something that you picked up when you were a child or do you feel like it's something you've learned along the way? What are your thoughts?
Dane Maddams:I think, i've, I've always been really interested in this idea of like, attachment theory and like you have, you have individuals that have relatively high EQs and others that, that, may be a little bit different on that spectrum. And a lot of it relates to obviously, how we grew up and what our environment and what our, what the world is around us. And I think particularly having a little one, it's been front of mind. And it's this, this, this kind of psychological concept that you have this idea of safety and you bridge out and you explore, but you come back to this home and how the home kind of. Responds to you whether it's, welcoming and nurturing or whether it's distracted or, or a variety of things will determine generally how much you wanna go and play and explore. And it's funny because from, I'm talking about infants here and, and, and, and how they're growing and kind of building that level of dependency and how respond to things. But I found that the same is really true for work. I think oftentimes we have an environment in our workplace where we may absolutely be able to play and explore. And it might be completely untethered and we go too far. We could have boundaries that are realistic. And other times, there might be too many sort of hand slaps where it's like, don't, you're experimenting too much. Come back. And so you sort of keep the blinders on. And I feel like the balance is really. Important, particularly kind of from a management perspective of, being clear on kind of what the expectations are, maybe what the guard rails need to be, but offering a sandbox that, that people can play within without feeling like they're going to be they're either not allowed to like inadvertently or not.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I, I definitely feel that, and I, I get that, workplaces can feel very constrained a lot of the time. So I think your analogy is spot on. You've got a young, young child and congratulations on that, by the way. But it is, feels like, there, there needs to be more kind of, structure around how to unstructure things sometimes. And, kids, kids play and toys and all of that. It, it really helps. So, yeah. What kind of kids toys could we take into the workplace? Do you think that would help mess it up?
Dane Maddams:Yeah, I think it's, it's really AI prototyping is front and center at the moment. I think previously we'd have to work closely with different team members, particularly designers, to that are usually incredibly busy to be able to, spit up maybe an advancement from a wire prototype or, or a sketch up that maybe a product manager was, was, was building. Yeah. But now the ability to be able to, like with, with Claude code, for example spit up a, a working prototype. That can illustrate an example and kind of build clarity around what the future vision of what you're creating could be, I think is, is is incredibly strong. And I think in the product management practice, that's, that's the biggest area of play that I'm seeing. Just this is, oftentimes AI. You generally can feel like you're playing whack-a-mole where you will kind of like, hit one and then three other problems will pop up and you'll hit the others, and then there's more over here. And so that kind of context window is limited and it's quite difficult. So I feel like using it as the, as a, as as a concept or, or like ideation creator to promote an idea is a really easy way to play and experiment and come up with different sort of ideas that I've been sort of tinkering with a lot lately and seen a lot of success with the, with the teams as well.
Chris Hudson:I suppose that one is a good one because it, it sounds really playful in that it'll just, give you some options and, throw it in and it'll give you something back. But I know from, in practice it actually requires a little bit of a method and, what, what's been your experience of setting up in a way that that can create more playful outcomes, do you think?
Dane Maddams:I think building if say, if we're talking about maybe teams, for example building a level of AI competency where, not only do you have maybe an expectation of like what the AI competency is for the team around you. It could be for a product manager. Again, just being able to use AI for just coaching or rapid prototyping. It could be. Using it to generate different comms plans for different demographics or teams or markets and things of that nature. But just like setting some, some I guess a rubric of what that is, but then offering the support and the clarity of what that could be, whether it's course content or, or, for example. At CultureAmp, we have we bring in new speakers from different companies where we may use the tools of an example could be Miro and offering our teams an opportunity just to explore what the latest and greatest features are and even the kind of, beta features that are currently not in market of, of, of what we can think of in the future. And sort of just pushing that and then, allowing time where teams can collaborate and feel safe to actually come up with ideas. They're kind of a bunch of different working groups that we have currently, which is just like, Hey, what are you, what are you building? What are you, what are you prototyping? What does that look like? And what we're often finding now is that when we do design workshops or even reviews of things, oftentimes PMs are now more involved and showcasing ideas, obviously at an earlier stage but than ever before. We used to have one particular role being a part of that process. I think it's offering the constraints of, what, what you're hoping the team will, will kind of build towards and what that looks like. Being realistic about it, but then offering the support and the environment that they'll actually be able to achieve it. I think the other thing is being and then just like not letting your hands off the wheel and just being like, Hey, like we've, we've. We've got a rubric that will determine how you succeed and here's some resources. See you later. We'll just expect you to keep doing it, but, but treating it like a muscle that you continue to build and checking in on it and making sure that it's crying. The acceleration of again, like ideation and is kind of, can't really be ignored. And I think, it is what everybody else is saying. It's kind of this future that we're all a little bit scared of, a little bit excited about. But I think going along for the ride is, is, is more important than not.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, yeah, for sure. No, you made some really good points though. I think there's, there's definitely a real big difference though, isn't there, in terms of learning technology. It's not like you learn it as a skill and then it's done. Which I guess may have been the case, if you were learning how to do PowerPoint for the first time or any, any of those kind of software packages. Traditionally this feels like it's a more immersive and a more. It's, it's expansive because it's ever growing and ever changing. So it feels like there's more of a, more of a toe toe in the water at all times type approach where you're just gonna have to tune in and, you've gotta take that on yourself. I'm Nick. I guess the question is, who should be making those conditions, right? For people to learn? And what's the best way of doing that, do you think?
Dane Maddams:Yeah. You're right. There is a, I mean, like with, with technology, obviously it always expands beyond, usually the, the market has to catch up to the technology. But we're in a different era and I think for me it comes down to playfulness. I think that ultimately I've really found in the last sort of six to 12 months, that sense of just like quirky playfulness and pulling things in and experimentation is more rewarded now than ever before. I think if you start experimenting with, PowerPoint, a couple of years ago, you just, it, it has certain limitations and there's only so far you're gonna be able to push it until it breaks. But I think the ability to conceptualize things and just have fun with them. I feel like is the key to keeping up with the growth of the various different products that are being released. I think there's this, there's this saying, and, and we, we hear it a lot, but, but it is true and it is that, the version of AI that we have at the moment is, is, is, is the worst version that we'll ever we'll ever have. The one we wake up to tomorrow. I mean, arguably with GBT four and five, I know that there's, there's a lot of conversations of which is actually better, but you know, like objectively it's getting better every single day. You can see with the release of Sawa recently and, and, and even with sort of Gemini and so on that. That there's always something to learn and do and experiment and play with, and always something new to, to kind of push the limits on. So I, I would say probably that playfulness and how that links to growth. And curiosity for sure.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, definitely, definitely. I mean, it, it kind of, it maybe leads onto another point, which is around, the diversity of work that is required from somebody in a particular role at this moment. Obviously a job description is there, and it's almost your ticket into an organization. But then after that, you know what? What grows and then what evolves. It might, it might end up being something that's slightly, slightly different, or maybe as a subset of one of your responsibilities, you're gonna have to be doing X, Y, Z and it's gonna involve ai and you have to, join this workshop or this brainstorming. You gonna have to come up with some ideas yourself. So it's not kind of written to the letter is the point. And I feel like there's, there's a real kind of interesting area around the diversity of experience. It's probably evolving, like the, the kind of blurriness that, that's kind of happening within organizations, particularly enterprise level where in, cross the cross-functionally, there are still pockets of, deep subject matter expertise. But at the same time, there's this kind of like broader awareness. Everyone knows a little bit about human centered design or CX and a bit about products and a bit about pricing and the commercial aspects. It feels like there's, there's this kind of like generalist, opportunity but also a diversity of skills that's developing from it as well. So that skill stacking aspect that's coming up you seeing that in, in, people within your teams and, and also in people that are coming through in the market, is that, is that a trend, do you think?
Dane Maddams:Absolutely. I think what I'm seeing in the market currently is that the there's this kind of. Overarching management layer that's sort of starting to flatten. And this idea of classing, maybe a hierarchy of an organization with roles is starting to trend away from that and move towards a skills-based type organization where maybe you look at every individual rather than you're a, a product manager or you're a senior engineer, and thinking more about. Holistically who the individual is and their ability and how it's skewed rather than where they sit in a bucket that may be a little bit too black and white to define, an individual and a human. For sure. Yeah, I think, I think one thing that AI is doing really well is giving people the ability to do much more. And I feel like if you have an interest in more spaces and then suddenly you have the ability to do more and more spaces, that coverage, that breadth becomes more important. That depth becomes, yeah, because it depends on what you specialize, obviously. But, I as, as you said, I used to work in visual effects and, and you'd always hear from generalists who did a bit of everything. They do a bit of an animation and modeling and, texturing and they would always feel like they could never do any one thing and specialize in it. Almost like it was a burden. I feel like the beauty of, of, of, of moving into this world that we are at the moment is that some of the best product managers that I, that I've seen have had really diverse and unique backgrounds where they haven't just gone completely deep on one thing and become a, typical product manager. They've, they've worn a hundred different hats, but they've had exposure. Experience to be able to see the traps, know where to play and experiment but it gives them more license to where they would normally stop and be able to, like, I can't go any further. I need a specialist for this. They can push it a little bit further and I feel like that's being rewarded. But absolutely I think like skills-based roles and, and and organizations are, are, are becoming yeah. Yeah.
Chris Hudson:Okay. And yeah, I mean, even from a team manager's point of view or from an an entrepreneurship point of view, do you feel like that that is the opportunity now for people to just build, build the skills and, go and go and just kind of carve their way through organizations? I feel like on paper. The recruitment process still set a certain way. Obviously there are gonna be certain key requirements, but if you've got a bit of a, smorgasbord type cv, can that still work and you still gonna be able to, to bring that, through successfully, do you think, in the company?
Dane Maddams:Yeah, I think one thing that we all kind of, you know can agree on is that no one actually knows. Really, predictably what the next sort of 10 years are going to look like in terms of like, how, how AI is gonna cut through. Mm. I think we all agree. It's, it's, it's hearsay to say and it's super significant. And that the market will definitely change. But in terms of like preparation for like roles, depending on wherever you are in your career the biggest thing for me is like identifying your passion, the things that you care about. Because like ultimately that'll be the thing, your intrinsic motivation will be the thing that will make your day-to-day life feel more joyous and easier and more accessible, and it really show through in your work. So I think it definitely starts with that. I think the rest of it of, of, of, of figuring out how you fit in the market and what that looks like. I mean, right now if I feel like the, the, the recruitment market is, is difficult, but it is still quite vertical in terms of what. Folks are looking for. And so I think this is probably one of my criticisms of that as a process is, is is you know, someone who did move from VFX into, kind of gaming and into HR tech, I know I was often told, but Dane like, you, you, you're a VFX guy. Like why are you moving in? Like you don't have transferable skills here. Like there is no experience. And I absolutely did. And many people complain that they. On paper, don't look like they could move into something, but they absolutely have everything and every bit of ability to be able to do so. So my recommendation would be to like think about where that transferability is and think about what it looks like maybe to whoever you might be applying to or chatting to. And, and, and be curious maybe about the companies that you do want to. Whether they're values driven or whether there's a particular outcome or, or, or there's a, an an, an area like sustainability or green tech, for example, that you might be interested in, in kind of lean into that. But I guess the TLDR is that I I think there is no. Right way to do it right now because it used to be find the place you wanna go and work up towards and work really hard. And now it's, really there's so much to your availability, be really curious about it and, and, and, and, and kind of stick to what you're passionate about and kind of grow and, and,
Chris Hudson:yeah. Yeah. Okay. I mean, in your experience then, now what, what was it like for you sort of taking taking another skill set forward into new, new work environments? Basically using that transferability, thinking on the fly through various, interactions and encounters and projects and whatever it was that, you had, you had the opportunity to apply other skills and other, other, other thoughts and schools of thoughts. So in that sort of messy middle, if you're thinking about product, culture, psychology that you speak about, like what do you. What are you bringing us through and how do you kind of bring that through in the best way, do you think?
Dane Maddams:Yeah, I think, I think it, it, it really relates to people. I've, I've worked with teams that were incredibly productive and teams that, that were not, and the thing that was true for all of them was the degree of psychological safety the the, the love of what they do, but also the, impact and value that they felt within themselves in their role, their team, and the overarching business and organization itself. And I think if you can get a couple of those things right and you can start to build safety amongst, your team both individually or, or even from their managers and so on, things start to unlock. The difficult part is that there's a lot of different things that can be blocking it that aren't always. Particularly clear or true, and sometimes they can, they can compound if they're not called out. One of the things I've kind of found throughout my career is that I, started off naively as a producer in this kind of VFX world, and I thought I had to have the answers to everything. I thought, I thought I needed to kind of like Braveheart my way through and charge and, and, and, and, and everybody had to see that I kind of led the way with confidence and then that would make me a good, producer. But kind of, I realized very quickly I was humbled and kind of called out by a colleague telling me like, you look like an idiot, and you are pretending and like you're not doing a particularly good job of, acting like you are brave or we have all the answers to everything because we know more than you about this and, and, and you're actually and it was a really important lesson early on in my career because I realized that great managers actually. I really honest and vulnerable about the things that they might know and might not know, and they're not afraid to kind of say, I don't quite understand that. Can you help me understand? They have a curiosity about the, the context of what they're building so that they can actually, sort of, lean in and, and not lean in when appropriate. So I think having that kind of. Those sort of moments of clarity of of, of what it means to be able to support people to unlock, psychological safety and, and all those things is really important. I think the other thing is that I've been in environments where I've had a lot of different folks that are working on something that completely stagnated in terms of their deliverables and their impact. And. It can be really com uncomfortable, but sometimes just calling out like, what's, what's happening? Like I, I, there is a tension, there's an atmosphere here, and like, let's just talk about it. Let's, let's, let's work on it. And it can do one or two things. It can unlock a really meaningful conversation or it can make people be more guarded depending on the environment that you build. For, in this particular instance, like calling it out for this team meant that a lot of them felt as though the work that they were building was there, there wasn't a lot of clarity on like, alignment on what they were building and they were kind of intimidated by one another in terms of their ability. They felt as though there was quite a lot of a bit of a lack of safety amongst their various fields. And so there was this feeling of like competition. And being able to call it out meant that we could reset and actually clarify that it wasn't a thing at all. It led to a really meaningful conversation and a lot of growth, like between the relationships of, of the teams that we were working with. And, suddenly it was kinda like a light switch a couple weeks later, the team was starting to deliver just because of that feeling and that, that, that that atmosphere. And no two teams or situations are ever the same, like the. The, the, the problems or the blockers that are getting in the way of them feeling a sense of belonging or something that's kind of like a bug bear in that situation is usually different. But I think the ability to identify it work towards it and be just really open and vulnerable about what you're seeing and, and, and, and, and building trust in a relationship is probably one of the biggest I guess, transferable things that I've pulled across a bunch of different industries.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Okay. And, and what's working for you while in that space, particular Culture Amp, you got certain like rituals or practices or, way, ways to kind of get that, get that going quite openly because it feels like otherwise, I might just be on the individual just to say, I, I need to empathize with you. I need to be aware of my team skills. I need to know them at that level so that I can bring that into my own, sphere of understanding and into my work as well. But yeah. What's, what's working do you think?
Dane Maddams:We, I think it's great because obviously being in a, in a HR tech company that, that, that mission is literally to, to help support folks and make a better water work is that we do really care about like, sort of working on our own product and, and, and in what we do. And what that looks like is, regular engagement surveys get a pulse on how people are feeling both. Within their organization sort of, but also if they see themselves working for that company in the next couple of years all the way through to their relationship with their manager. And that gives you a bit of a signal of by, demographic and group, how are people, like where are they at, where, like what is their engagement score generally? And it usually gives you impact factors around, Hey, there's some things that we're seeing here. Like, for example, individuals feel like they're eating a glass ceiling for development. Or there's, we feel as though there's a lack of alignment between, this group and this group is a trend that we're seeing across the board. And I feel like. Those signals are really strong because it allows you to, to sort of lean into the things that are impacting that thing that, that, that, that team and it, it can change month to month depending on what happens in an organization or even the environment. A lot of people do feel unsafe at the moment. There's a lot of layoffs happening. There's a lot of uncertainty. And I think that impacts, all of us in the back of our mind is day-to-day at work and, and, and how we see things. We're a little bit more kind of, skittish when things change in our organization, for example. I think as well, we've got generally a trio as associated with each camp and team we sort of call them. So you've got a, a design and engineering and a product lead that sort of oversees a lot of the effort that happens. And that kind of ladders up to a director level across an entire camp that might have a, a mission. And that kind of leadership trio really cares about those things, those, those check-ins. Not only from an aspect of, capturing that information, but also identifying the actions from them and then meaningfully communicating what we're doing about them. So, checking in with the team regularly creating outcomes and, and, and, and checking in and building towards them to show that not only have we listened, but we also, are are going to do things. It's not just gonna be a tick box exercise. And we've heard you now go away. The other thing I think is one thing I think we do really great is just demoing and, kind of going back to that idea of like playfulness and prototyping, a lot of the teams will have a demo day where we will just run through what we're building and chat about it and, and things of that nature.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Okay. So it's almost like building the, the kind of emotional interactions around some of the rational process driven check-ins and know, it feels like, I mean, the data's there as well, that that'll kind of take. Maybe some of the emotion out of the, the first, if, if your manager is seeing their, their team's engagement, on, on a piece, on the screen or whatever, then that's those kinda like statisticals. So it feels like that there might be, now these are, these are the facts and there might be a more rational response, because you're presenting in a rational way, but then using some of the other interactions, the one-to-ones, the, the softer. Softer cultural initiatives to basically add to that, explore it further, and then use it as an opportunity to connect rather than it, it being a, like, we've seen this and this is what we think, it, it, it feels like it's less observed and then dictated. It's more about including people through the process a little bit. Is that, is that what you're saying?
Dane Maddams:Absolutely. Yeah. So there's this, we all hear the saying that, somebody is much more likely to leave. An organization because of their manager, then their organization itself. And it's true, like statistically it's true. And so building a cadence where you, we, where you set a structure in an organization where you have meaningful one-on-ones regularly, like, regularly meaning like every week or, or, or fortnight at a minimum, where you lean in and build that environment of psychological safety. That doesn't happen overnight. But it could just be like, Hey Chris, how you going? Like how, like, how's your week? How are things looking? Can I, can I help you? All the way through to I'm gonna proactively help you because I know this is going on in your life and here are some things to make your life a bit easier. Or let's, let's, let's, let's, let's keep building it. I think the second thing is really clear goals both developmentally and also kind of like aspirationally in terms of the impact of the work you wanna do, so that you can check in on them and, review them and like the things we said we'd do, like we've done them and That's awesome. And linking that to like, some level of a development plan, it could be. Something that you've just spun up. It could be high fidelity, like a, a platform thing, or it could be just a Google Doc that you're just chatting through, but just having some idea of, of where you wanna be and what that vision looks like, and being able to link that to your manager. Yeah. And I think, assessing that with, with, with kind of how you're performing so that you're chatting to your manager regularly or the team around you around kind of what that feels and looks like. So you're working towards something. I think if those things aren't there, it's kind of like, well, what's the point? Like, like you obviously are going to be doing the work because you care about the work, but I think it's really important to feel appreciated and rewarded and valued in your organization. And I think those things are in place to help support you do that in a really visible way. I think the other thing that's been amazing is, kind of just having shout outs as well. So, kind of building a culture in an organization where people will are, are really open to calling out people's success out loud, whether it's, if you have a, a comm tool like Slack or MS teams or even via email and just bringing people in and being like, Chris did this amazing thing. Incredible. And like, that's, that's sort of captured to some degree, I think super important.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think. Making those interactions sort of normalized it feels like is very key. And yeah. Other point I wanted to make was just, yeah, building on something that you've posted about on LinkedIn is, is around, the, the speed of, I guess the result in a way and the outcome because, sometimes, sometimes we feel like we, we are responding to the conditions and then we need to make the intervention that, may, address the situation in that moment, and that needs to be fixed straight away. But I want to kind of link it to something else that you were posting about, which is around shipping slowly and, and the fact that it's underrated and the fact that actually, over time, there's, there's real. Merit to just working on stuff and being okay with the fact that it's gonna be a bit messy, in the middle and, and in the meantime. So it might just be that you are getting to a, a, a deeper level of understanding. It might not be that you are gonna resolve something in that exact moment because it's gonna take time to fix and, and just being okay with that. So is that, is that kind of philosophy running through your own management approach and, is that something that you've found to work yourself?
Dane Maddams:Totally. I think no one works. A hundred percent, a hundred percent of the time. It's completely unrealistic. And everybody has their own level of there are days where I struggle because I haven't slept all night because, my baby's been up. Or it could be, I've, I've, I've been, someone cut me off in traffic and I just had a terrible day because of it or whatever reason, and I'm just in a crappy mood. And I think sometimes we forget. That we can become, become obsessed almost with this grit and this determination that we often hear on LinkedIn. It's completely unrealistic. And, the idea of sustainable high performance, which is what I think, is, is becoming more and more common is the idea that, i've been in roles where I've been really, really good and super high impact, and I've gotten in high performing all the time, and I've been in roles where I absolutely have not been at all. And I've been I've, I've been outta my depth entirely. And the things that were different for that for me were environmental factors as well as my ability and skillset for the thing that I was working on. And I've seen people that are completely skilled, just in the wrong fit at the wrong time and things just don't line up for them. And I feel like being realistic of that rather than kind of black and white of like, Nope, this isn't an appropriate fit for you, I think is super important. And I think being someone on the receiving end of all of that, I have a lot of. Empathy and, and complete understanding. For everybody who is just and this is everyone that I've worked with really, which is everyone just really is trying their best. But sometimes they can become encumbered by, the mess of it all. Whether it's feeling like you're not particularly aligned with your manager or you could have somebody that you have a dependency to build and they're just kinda shutting you down or blocking every step of the way. And that can feel exhausting and that can slow down your productivity. And that's not necessarily your fault. And I think the way you collaborate and work out loud about it is really important. So yeah, I think, I think it's really important that for me. Folks don't get too caught up in this sustainable high performance, meaning everybody is gonna be just smashing it, delivering it, and always achieving this high performance expectation every step of the way because it's completely unrealistic. And people have their moments at different times. But I think adding in environment where they can succeed and adding, adding some structure and goals around what it could look like is super helpful to determining what that could be. For sure.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, I mean, add as a add as a manager. How does the manager go about kind of bringing that into their practice? Because it feels like, the, the expectations are set around a goal or KPI, obviously you've got your own role that you need to perform and I feel like there's this, I dunno, what is it? It's like a. Performance. Yeah, it's performance drive and the, the, your presence, your very presence of work could be like, considered to be a bit of a performance really, because you, you have to be perceived in a certain way. So how do you make it a little bit less about that, more balanced and a bit more authentic, do you feel?
Dane Maddams:Yeah, I think, if we're talking, say about a performance review itself, one thing I try to do, say for my manager is package up a narrative that just makes sense. So, for an example, if I had a goal and I absolutely smashed it, I really wanna celebrate the things that I've done and the teams that I've worked with to help them understand what that looks like in a really succinct way, just simply, but if I haven't achieved the things maybe that I set out for, like, assuming that we've already set goals and, and, and we plan for things, which, which isn't always realistic for some teams because they're just, there's a lot going on and they're busy. But if I haven't achieved those things, I tend to add some reality around why and quantify it. Like an example is, like the, the market. Has changed for a variety of reasons. And we did this in this to try to counter it, but it didn't, we didn't hit rather than, I just didn't hit my KPI and I tried my best, so I was, I feel like qualifying it as best as you can and, and kind of packaging it in a really clear narrative really does help kind of, the team around you kind of rock what's happening, I think as well, even though it sometimes feels unnatural because you kind of need to rush to the next thing is like having an actual retrospective of the things that you've delivered and trying to learn from them. And apply that knowledge to what you're building next. So you're measuring your learning and then you're kind of progressing because, oftentimes some teams have the luxury of a retro, some don't because, d team sizes and so on. But I definitely recommend it's, it's prioritized because it can just be a conversation of what did we do well, what didn't we, and, and what can we do next? But that artifact from that conversation is important to carry through. And I kind of spoke about. That the, the, the trio having an engagement survey and then showing the, that they're applying it and kind of building that muscle. The same goes for anything you are learning. And if you have a responsibility for a team extracting that, capturing that and meaningfully adding it to the team and showing that you care, but you're peppering it throughout what you're building next, I think is really critical. Yeah.
Chris Hudson:Yeah.
Dane Maddams:Okay.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. All right. So lots of things and yeah, I mean, in implementing that, has anything else come up for you that you feel like would be worth sharing as well?
Dane Maddams:Yeah, I think some of the most successful relationships that I've built in a work environment, have started with calling out a uncomfortable reality or an uncomfortable truth. And, we speak about like, post traumatic growth of just like, you might go through something together that could be really difficult. And you either grow or you experience trauma and you separate, and you don't want anything to do with that person anymore. I think, the same goes for, for those situations and I've, I've really built strong foundations of people just by being brave and calling out something and kind of maybe dispelling an assumption that they had about me or I think one of the biggest dangers is just left leaving things being unsaid. And sometimes. I totally get, like, being in an environment and a workplace, you can't constantly just call out uncomfortable truths everywhere you see it. So I'm kind of referring to where you feel really, it's a blocker for the things that you wanna achieve for the team around your success and the happiness. And I think it, it, I guess just reflecting on everything that is, is, is, is a big one.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Okay. Do you remember a, like a particular time when that would've happened where you had to call out an uncomfortable truth and, and it just wasn't, maybe you hold it for a little while in the meeting and and then you've just gotta say it. Do you feel, has that come up for you recently or, can you think of a time in the past?
Dane Maddams:Yeah, I maybe just before I was at Culture Amp there, there was definitely a situation where I had I was in a role and I had a kind of counterpart and would often had a feeling that they would cut me down. Whether it's in meetings that would question me there'd be a lot of fairly critical feedback, particularly in open audiences where I might have had an opinion or a strategy on something and they, they, they'd be quite objective and. Originally it felt good because it was like, I'm, I'm getting feedback and it's kind of constructive and it feels good, but it just felt like a consistent theme. And it was, and it was, it was unassuming, right? It was like, it didn't quite feel great, but I would often reflect and think, well, this is probably a me thing. I'm probably being a bit sensitive. The feedback's good and it's accurate, and I, I, I can work with it, so I just need to shut up. And then over time I was finding that I just wasn't sleeping super well about it. And it was like, I was like, I was just really holding onto it and I was building maybe resentment towards that person. And, and I had to have an important relationship with them because we had to collaborate and align on a lot of what we're building and, they I, I, I, I, I ended up saying I ended up calling out and basically just this, having a one-on-one with'em and, and just being like, look, this is, this is my narrative at the moment. And I'm not saying this is true, but this is the thing I've, I'm, I'm, I'm feeling and I just wanted to ask kind of where you're at. And I expected them to be like, Dane, thank you so much for telling me that I agree and I'm sorry, and I'll work on it. And we'll work on it. But instead they were like, no, they, what we talking about. And completely denied.
Chris Hudson:Okay. And,
Dane Maddams:And I was like, oh shit. I I maybe, maybe this is a meeting. What was really interesting about that is that I it, it, it kind of continued and, and, and, and sort of progressed. And then we were able to work on a project together that was really difficult. It involved a lot of long hours and, and, and that we really struggled with and we ended up having another opportunity to catch up. And it was, it was kind of over beer. I asked the same question after after like a lot of chaos that where the enemy was maybe over here and not between the two of us. Yeah.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. And
Dane Maddams:it kind of called out the reality that they felt like I was maybe going after their role and that wasn't at all the case. But there was a, there was maybe an assumption on, on, on, on the, the, the, the way I was responding and the way that I was acting and, and the, the, what I was putting forward that made them put their guard up. And without me knowing that I, I felt like I was responding to all of these objections by becoming more informative and a little bit more guarded. And, and they were like, well, they're, they're doubling down on this narrative that they have. And so being able to just. Call, call it out, which was the fact that like, Hey, I'm feeling not really secure in my job, and out comes this dude who says he knows everything. And like, I'm, I'm not having this. And meanwhile me, I'm clueless and think that I'm helping. And then I have someone who's objecting and, and I feel like they just don't like me or something. And the narratives are entirely different when we're able to come together and just be honest about what we were experiencing, we're able to actually. Call that out and build a meaningful relationship. And it meant that we're actually kind of like, considered a dream team after that. We, we, we, we work really closely together. We really trusted each other. We got to call that all out. And it's, it's hard to do. Not everybody could do that. It is a bit of a luxury especially if you're spun up in teams where you, sort of work quickly with'em, then need to move on. But those moments, I think are really the biggest highlights of the situations where. Things were really hard and there was no chance I think I could, kind of break through and have a good working relationship with you. But we absolutely did. And not only that, it was a super big success story kind of thing.
Chris Hudson:Yeah. Great. Great to hear. Yeah, I'm, I'm really yeah, I'm really interested in this story because it, it just feels like it was the timing of that conversation, the point that you raised, that that kind of prompted the, the subsequent deepening of that relationship in a way, it felt like that unlocked it all because you were happy enough just to be a bit more upfront about it, which I think, we could probably all have more courage in certain work situations where, those conversations could be had. So having that, but also getting the timing right is, is pretty key. But yeah, I mean, it just sounds like you, you were able to really build on that. And yeah, it's kind of interesting because we, we're social beings, we always trying to find common ground between ourselves and somebody else that we're talking to, a bit like on this podcast. But, we're, we're trying to find that that kind of shared, shared. Agreement in a way, like a consensus. And yeah, if you're doing that in a work environment, then obviously some people are gonna think, well, you're talking in my language, but why is that and what do they want from it? And why are they asking all the questions? And it, if they're doing it in a, in a fairly organized way, and if it's in a workshop, then it could feel threatening, right. From their point of view. It could feel as if you are, you're kind of, you're moving into their land and you know that. That doesn't always fly so well in, in the corporates and in those organizations. So yeah, I think it's just one to be aware of. But sounds like you managed it masterfully.
Dane Maddams:Yeah, it was, it, it, it worked out in the end. And I think the other thing that goes with that is, is like I've, I've, I've been full to the fact that, again, earlier on in my career, you need to be in an environment where everybody needs to see you in a positive light and needs to be your friend. And, and I think that that's great and I feel like it's important to be empathetic and kind and everything that you do. But sometimes. Perception is reality and somebody might just meet you and have a bad vibe, and that's just it, and yeah. Or, or, or you may make a decision that impacts another team and, and you're not seen in the best possible way. I think as long as you're explaining what's happening you are talking about the reasoning and you're bringing the team along for the journey and in moments where appropriate, you're, you're capturing their feedback and applying it where you can. I feel like the reality as well of, of that, you can't always make everybody happy and you can't be in a situation where you might call something out and you are always met with warmth and understanding and vulnerability because sometimes. Even myself, some people don't necessarily have the self-awareness in that moment to be able to actually respond to the, the, the, the very thing that you're seeing. But I think rather than kind of building sometimes within yourself, being able to express it and having meaningful conversation a bit is really important. But as you said, timing and awareness is important and it's a delicate dance. So,
Chris Hudson:yeah, that's it. Yeah, and I think it's just about, recognizing your, your place within. Within a more collective environment, which is, the world of work. You've gotta be not just performing for yourself, but for other people. Bringing them up and, and really, shining a light where you need to as well. You can't just, you can't just kind of stick to your own KDP can, can't stick to your own objectives and just kind of keep going. Yeah. It just feels like there's, if you, if you're kind of in tune with the failures as well as the successes, through some of those, in the bumpy times as well, then you're gonna feel a little bit more transparent and, and it feels like, you are gonna be probably more of a, yeah, more of a, an icon for culture. An icon might be a strong word, but it feels like you'd be, you're more in tune with the culture because you see it for what it is, rather than always fighting against it, always saying, no, it's all okay. It's all on track. So that kind of false. Presentation of information can happen a lot of the time as well. So, and people don't get the kind of real read on what the culture is. And that's why so many people are down in the foyer, drinking coffees like, like it's going out of fashion. And yeah, there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of kind of venting going on behind, behind the scenes. So I think, yeah, it's probably healthy, right? We should probably do it more through the day. What do you say?
Dane Maddams:If I, if I think about the the managers that I respect the most yeah. They often, they often are a little bit fast than loose in terms of Yeah. Yeah. A little bit unconventional. Their guards write down, they call things out. They say things like, this is a bit. This whole thing's a bit screwed, isn't it? Like, what's like the, the, rather than if I consider the bosses maybe the, the, the, that I struggled with a little bit more was the ones that I guess, were more toxically positive. It was more the attitude of everything's fine, everybody like this is just part of it. Like, we just gotta keep moving forward. Just be positive, keep going to the next thing. And that. A really nice thing to say and do, but the reality is, is that it, it, it burns you out and burns teams out. And there's the idea of like, sort of. I think being caught in an environment as well where you might have somebody that's new in an organization that wants something to prove and, and, and there might be a lot of encouragement to do that and there's like blood hounding of problems and information and things and it can feel quite threatening to teams. And that can be quite alluring because, you've got someone who's, who's impacting it, but that cut through can really impact the team that's preexisting. And so, I think that both of them can work really well in concert together if. We're just, we've, we've got the appropriate environments to check in and talk about it, but also teams around it that, that, that, that lean in and, meaningfully kind of address those things and build a culture within teams of conversations. For sure. But yeah, I, I, I tend to lean more to the management style of calling things out, being open and honest about it and, and, and, and, and just moving forward, I think with that ethos rather than, I don't wanna hear it. Let's keep going.
Chris Hudson:Yeah, yeah. Nice, nice. Yeah, I was I was doing some government work recently in, is to do with neurodiversity and, basically trying to kind of work with people in, in a team, when they're in the state of flow. And this concept of being in the state of flow is kind of interesting for this because you, you've gotta say, well. Flow isn't always good, right. It's just that you gotta follow it. And I think, if we, as as if we as employees, intrapreneurs, whoever we are, we've gotta be in tune with the environment, in tune with surroundings. And if we're not in tune with that, then we're kind of fighting it. And that's where the, the friction, the distance, the alienation, the accusations come out. It, it feels like mixed agendas are at play. There's a lot of kind of toxic behaviors that can kind of emanate from that. So, yeah, I, I really think it's an important point to make. So thanks for bringing that to life for the story that you shared. Great. Well, I think Dane, we might leave it there. Yeah. I really appreciate you coming onto the show and, and telling us about all your experiences and, and philosophies in terms of culture and positivity and, all the things that work for you. Is there, is there any kind of one final piece of advice that you wanna share with anyone else? Intrapreneurs, what, what would be something that you'd say to them? Say, definitely do this today, tomorrow, next week, whenever.
Dane Maddams:Yeah. I think it's kind of what we touched on in the beginning around playfulness and creativity. I think oftentimes we can use. AI is a tool to kind of riff on ideas, but I feel like if you're not already like spinning up prototype if you have an idea, even if you are in an existing role where there might be something kind of off on the, on the, on the kind of periphery where you might have an idea for another team that will be interesting, like spinning that up and taking that to that team and having a conversation just as a place of, of kind of leaning more into that creativity. I think is super important.'cause it does help on unlock exactly what you said, that, that that flow state, I think oftentimes we just get focused on deliverables and the outcomes that we're creating that we forget to just play a little bit. Mm. And I think the only other thing I'll say just'cause it's probably front of mind for me at the moment, but it's just taking stock of where you're at in your work environment and I think we often. Side of doing that and just doing a review of, of, of, of how you're feeling, where you're at, and the things that, that, that maybe you need to be true. And it could be something as simple as creating a plan of maybe some of the new folks within your organization you need to build a relationship with. It could be outside of who you're already talking to, all the way through to conversation with your manager about. Something like a development plan or, or calling something out that you've been feeling for a while. But just doing an internal kind of audit of yourself and identifying the things that come from that, that you may need to follow up on and do, because I feel like we often forget ourselves when we're really focused in the work that we're building. But we are kind of more important than that because ultimately if we're not happy and we're burning out and we're stressed and we don't feel safe it's really gonna show through in everything that we do. So the kind of, the oxygen mask analogy taking care of yourself before anyone else is really true, particularly in a work setting too. Yeah.
Chris Hudson:Brilliant. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Great stuff. And yeah, if anyone did have a question or if they wanted to just check in with you, where would they best find you, do you think?
Dane Maddams:Yep. Just on LinkedIn's probably the best bet. If you just search for Dane Madams on LinkedIn, you'll find me. And yeah, happy to chat.
Chris Hudson:Definitely. And yeah, for anyone listening, definitely follow Dane on LinkedIn as well because he put some great posts out there. It's really insightful, kind of unexpected stuff. So if you're in the intrapreneur space and you want to get any, any more wisdom, then definitely follow Dane as well. So thank you. Alright we'll leave it there. Thanks so much for coming onto to the show, Dane. Thanks for having me, Chris. Appreciate it. Good chat.