Sofia's Journey

stephen barden 0:03

Welcome to another episode of Migrant Odyssey stories of and about migrants of all kinds People seeking a better life , people fleeing an unbearable one , all , I suspect , wishing they could fulfill themselves in their home countries . My guest today is Sofia , a refugee from Ukraine now living in Berlin . This is a woman with a master's degree in international economics who's now working around the clock cleaning other people's houses , totally without self-pity , as I'm sure you'll hear for yourself . Sofia strikes me as someone of whom most people in Europe would , if they stopped to think , say there , but for the grace of God . Because it is her personal pain to know that , unlike refugees from Africa , the Middle East and Asia , she doesn't have to fear being refused asylum .

stephen barden 1:02

But the German government has made it relatively easy for Ukrainian refugees to be declared residents of the country . That they have very good access to social and medical support in Germany , that Ukrainians even have access to private Ukrainian-speaking psychological therapists . Possibly , but it doesn't bring back those she has lost . Refugee ship and migration is not a competition in hardship and trauma . It's a disruption to the soul , it's an obliteration of one's place in society , whether that society was a village facing starvation or a thriving city demolished by the never-ending shelling by an invader . It is the migration from a place where you were recognized to a place where you have difficulty in recognizing yourself . This is Sofia's story , as you'll hear after our conversation . However , the story has been continuing .

Sofia 2:10

I was born in a tiny city like 400 kilometers from Kiev . I was raised like any kid in Ukraine . I went to school nothing special . Then , when I was 17 , I entered the university in Kiev , so I went in there to start my own life .

stephen barden 2:33

And so . what you just skipped everything up to the age of 17 . So the city you were born in , how big was it ? And what did your parents do ? What did your mother and father do ?

Sofia 2:48

It was a tiny city a tiny city , luckily still existing 20,000 inhabitants at all . We lived in a private house with a household next to my mom's parents . So it's like school , home stuff you go to school , you help parents , you go to a grandma to help . I went to some sport , like any kid . I decided I need to learn English , so I took private lessons from my school teacher . She was a very nice lady , unfortunately passed away because of Corona . She wanted to give us some knowledges , so it's what's important .

stephen barden 3:39

So what did your mom do for a living ?

Sofia 3:42

They both worked at the heavy machinery plant , which was like the biggest enterprise in the city and almost all the city work it in there .

stephen barden 3:55

Where in the Ukraine is it - north , south , east , west ?

Sofia 4:00

No , no , no , it's Kiev region , then Jutomyr region . It's like in Zhytomir suburb .

stephen barden 4:05

Okay , so at 17 , you said goodbye and off you went to university . And what did you study ? International economics . International economics , why international . ?

Sofia 4:19

economics . I don't know when I was applying . I was choosing between the Lord department and I had no idea what I'm going to do and what I want . About two years before I wanted to enter the military , yes , before my mother said , oh you with your eyes , what are you going to do in there ? It's not for you , Choose something else . And my cousin was studying at that university before and he brought me this book about the university that choose . Okay , I will so . And when I was applying I had no idea it's like for me towards , like , economy , law , management , marketing . I had no idea what I just want to do . And when I was entering we didn't just apply , we had to pass three exams and if you had enough level then you are in . So I just like randomly applied for international and it was good , it was great , actually .

stephen barden 5:24

And then so you studied that for what ? 3,4 years ? (Sofia:Five , five . )

Sofia 5:27

Yes , okay , I have both bachelor's and master's degree in international economics .

stephen barden 5:34

Yes , and so , what did you do ? where did you go with your masters in international economics ? Did you go into government ?

Sofia 5:42

(Did you go into) no , because when I worked on my third year of studying , I started to work for the companies that served our national sports team .

stephen barden 5:54

Okay .

Sofia 5:55

So we provided services for team going abroad , for the sports , competition and particular for our national football team . So I started to work at hospitality and it's like a piece of marketing , piece of management , everything , and it's my careful , attentive to details , stop and think ahead which is important . When you're planning something , when you're organizing something , it's important to think ahead .

stephen barden 6:26

So you basically organized and maintained the team as they went out ? Yes , everything . From hotel bookings to everything that they were doing .

Sofia 6:39

Yeah , because when the team goes abroad , it's a pool of journalists , it's a pool of officials , it's quite a huge bunch of people .

stephen barden 6:49

So you were doing your part of that organization . Yes , wonderful , and that's when you came first to Germany , correct ?

Sofia 6:57

Yeah , that was when we were getting ready for our football team qualified first time for the championship and we had a preparation like six months before we were going to and from for all the cities . It was nice . So there we were told that all Ukrainians are Alkoholiks , literally . Who told you that ? The the mayor of Köln ?

stephen barden 7:26

The mayor of Koln said that all Ukrainians are alcoholics .

Sofia 7:30

We had . We went to a reception . This was during the World Cup , yeah , like two months before that . were invited invited for reception and it the Rathouse , such a nice place , and have like producing beer at the basement yes , and I don't drink beer at all , like at all . I don't like beer , I don't understand the taste . They were serving beer in there and I was , and he came and said why don't you drink ? I don't drink beer . He said oh , why ? Al Ukrainians are Alcoholics . I know only two who are not . And the Klitschko brothers . Okay , thank you .

stephen barden 8:12

An entire nation is alcoholic . So you carry on working for them for some time .

Sofia 8:21

Yes , quite long time . Then they had of like national football association change and they would like to choose another provider for their services , so I quit it .

stephen barden 8:36

Okay , all the firm quit it actually yeah , yeah , cause they lost the licence ,

Sofia 8:43

No , they haven't lost the license , they just like started working with smaller football clubs and athletes Okay .

stephen barden 8:52

But you then , in 2018 , you had , you , had met your husband .

Sofia 9:02

No , no , no , I met him three years before that . Yes , Okay , yes , I met him in London . Yes , okay , yeah , we had a partner in London . We cooperated for a long time with that firm and we had some working meetings . And yes , I met him in a Hyde Park .

stephen barden 9:29

In Hyde An d he's Ukrainian as well , is he ?

Sofia 9:33

No , he's not . What is he ? He's Israeli .

stephen barden 9:37

Israeli , okay , okay , and what was his name ? Jacob , yeah , and so you met , and then , and then , what happened to you ?

Sofia 9:47

Yes , we just had like small chat . No , no , it's okay , it was just a small chat , "where are you from ? What are you doing here ? Like , how long are you going to stay ? We had coffee and just exchanged the emails , that's all , and like we link emailing for six months , as I believe . Then he came to Ukraine to visit me . Then we've met again in Denmark . That's how it started , and I never thought I would have got married . He didn't think you were going to get married . No , I had like a bad temper .

stephen barden 10:28

you have a bad temper .

Sofia 10:29

Yes , I do , I do , I'm controlling it , I'm trying to control it , (SB: it's good to know that whikle I'm sitting here) No , it's not about aggression or something . It's just about I've lived for many years alone and I got used to the things my way . It's going my way and it's hard when you become older . It's hard to change your habits , it's hard to soften for someone else . So when you have your routine , you are trying to keep it .

stephen barden 11:09

So you and Jacob and got married when ?

Sofia 11:13

2018 . Now we got married in April .

stephen barden 11:18

Okay , and that was in Ukraine or in Israel .

Sofia 11:21

No , no , in Ukraine I'm not allowed to get married . In Israel . Okay , in Israel you can only be in religious marriage when rabbi has this ceremony . They call it Chupa . So only after that you are married in Israel , and if you are not a Jew you can't have Chupa . And if you don't have Chupa you are not married . So you just can register that you're living together , that you have , like that you have the house holding . Yeah , that's so .

stephen barden 12:03

So you got married in 2018 in Ukraine . Yes , and then the two of you went to Israel In August .

Sofia 12:11

We went , okay , just before the Independence Day it was the 27th of August .

stephen barden 12:16

And how long did you spend there ?

Sofia 12:19

Till 2021 - We went to Ukraine in November 21st .

stephen barden 12:28

Both of you went there . (sofiaYes) , why ?

Sofia 12:32

I wanted to . I planned it . I planned it before because I wanted to stay like next to my mom .

War and Corona Impact

Sofia 12:40

And my grandmother , she's old and I've experienced troubles with getting to and from Israel , not because of the border control , but because of this corona restrictions , and usually it takes two days to get from Israel , like to the Eastern Europe . Yeah , because of all this flights and all this , but with corona it was literally impossible . And we also experienced war in Israel . It was two weeks of war .

Sofia 13:19

Also , you can't go anywhere . You can't take a flight , you can't , literally you can only walk out of Israel . There were two ways to walk out of Israel . There was a pedestrian walk to Jordan and to Egypt and during corona or war , you can't even walk out . You can swim to Cyprus , for example . Yes , and when my mom got to hospital with the corona , I couldn't even go for any money for like , with any papers , with any permits . I couldn't even leave Israel and it bothered me like a lot . I need to be somewhere close , somewhere I can I'm sure I can get in there . She's retired now and my grandma is 95 . She's like about to die any day and I need to know that I'm able to get in there .

stephen barden 14:15

So you were - right , that was in November 2021 . (Sofia:Yes) , and at that stage , was there any hint that was going to be a war ?

Sofia 14:26

Yes , yeah , actually I was there were not many people believed that the was about about to start , and I was sure it because before that I helped a lot when we had like the original conflict in the Eastern territories . I helped a lot and went there . So I knew then we're not going to stop . But , as many of us , I didn't expect the scale of it , that it will be that huge , that the Belorussia will allow them to attack through their territory . So the front line is 2000 kilometers . That's a huge . That's the front line . So we are being attacked , like from many directions .

Sofia 15:24

And , like I remember , a few months before that it was Saturday and my friends started to text me like oh , we are so sorry , we are so sorry . We are with you if you need anything , please . I was like the first thought I had was that the nuclear station has exploded in Ukraine . And then they texted that the CNN or BBC had this video about Russian troops on our border , so like more than 200,000 are at the border , and I was calling mom crying that's what's going on . What's going on ? She said no , nothing , we are okay , we are watching TV . But, like, the BBC said it's a war . She said no , no , no , it's okay , it's fine Like they are in there like four or five months already . So most of Ukrainians would have started fight claiming that Russia never attack Ukraine , literally .

stephen barden 16:30

So it wasn't believed at all . So where were you when the war actually broke out ?

Sofia 16:39

I was in my apartment in Irpin , (SB: Irpin is where ? ) , 15 kilometers from Kiev , it's actually a Kiev suburb .

stephen barden 16:50

Okay , and so you and your husband were there right . And when did it start to affect you directly ?

Sofia 17:01

Four in the morning , the helicopters start and the shelling started . Four in the morning , (SB:Four in the morning) , Yes , four in the morning .

stephen barden 17:12

So the Russian helicopters came over and they started shelling . How did that - stupid question- How did that feel ? What did you do ?

Sofia 17:21

I was sitting on the floor crying because I have experienced the war before and I do know how scary it is .

stephen barden 17:32

So you had experienced the war before .

Sofia 17:33

Yes , yes in Israel .

stephen barden 17:36

Oh , during the Israeli war .

Sofia 17:37

Yeah , I have experienced the war before and I went to Eastern Ukraine in 2015 . So I know when the shelling is , how is it ? But I was crying just because I knew it would be awful that , the fear , that I knew it would be so bad , and none of us are ready to face all the cruelty we are not going to survive . My husband was packing his things . He brought his equipment with him . All Israelis are military experts , so he decided .

stephen barden 18:20

So he was packing his things to go ,what To go and fight ? (Yes ,) even though he was not Ukrainian .

Sofia 18:35

I need to collect my things and I remember ,(SB: that same morning , . Yes , I remember , because it was until seven in the morning . He was ready and I received the message from my mom it's a war . I have this message still . It's a war .

stephen barden 19:05

Goodbye , and that was it (Sofia: yeah) .

Sofia 19:06

His division went to Kharkiv region , which was already half occupied by the end of the day . They were fighting in the beginning there . And then and then he volunteered to go to Mariupol when it was already surrounded .

stephen barden 19:31

Why did he do that ? Why do you think - you knew him . Why did he do that ?

Sofia 19:37

That's unexplainable . He's experienced military . They were asked who's ready to go to Mariupol to help those surrounded by Russia . He said I am , and they flew by helicopters in there to occupied Marupol .

stephen barden 20:04

He wasn't an active soldier I mean he'd done his military service in Israel .

Sofia 20:06

Yes .

stephen barden 20:07

But he was not an active soldier .

Sofia 20:09

No , no , no , they all are active soldiers .

stephen barden 20:12

I know that , yeah , but he wasn't actually in the military . I know that he'd have to go back every year .

Sofia 20:20

Yes , every two years . Every year they have these military camps , military trainings , when you go to refresh your knowledges or like in danger , when it's dangerous , they are being recalled . Yes , to join the defence .

stephen barden 20:37

did he said okay , not only did he go the very first day of the war . He then volunteered to go to Mariupol as well .

Sofia 20:48

Yes .

stephen barden 20:49

He was thinking absolutely like a soldier

Sofia 20:56

Yes , it's not about doing the thinking , it's maybe the nature . Because he wasn't obliged , he wasn't on duty . I wasn't pushing him for I wouldn't say you have to . I've told you can go to Israel , like today . Please , I don't mind , I won't be judging , you can go , you also have parents and you can leave . It's not your war . He said . Would you go with me ? I said no , I'm not going , I'm staying . So he said, we are staying .

stephen barden 21:46

So he went to Mariupol when it was surrounded , and what happened then ?

Sofia 21:54

On 16th of April they started to the fight to break the surround Because , like Mariupol , had different divisions . It's a huge town . It has , like , military division and police officers and SWAT and border control and they were all around the city and they were trying all together in Azovstal (the iron and steel works) . So they helped those separate troops to get together at one place Because it was a safe place . At least they could have survived shelling and other bombs at that plant . So on 16th of April , yes , they started the operation .

stephen barden 22:47

To break out basically .

Sofia 22:49

Yes , they reached Marupol successfully . Not all of them reached it Because the helicopters were shut down , but they reached and they . But at the end of the day he was killed by a sniper .

stephen barden 23:08

Oh , I'm sorry .

Sofia 23:09

We all are .

stephen barden 23:12

How did you find out ?

Sofia 23:13

about it . I was informed in the evening that he is killed .

stephen barden 23:22

Did you ? Can I ask you a question ? Did you have a feeling that that was going to happen ?

Sofia 23:30

No .

stephen barden 23:31

So you were completely taken by surprise .

Sofia 23:34

Not by surprise . I do realise it is war . (SB:Sure) I do realize we were not immortal none of us and the life ends with the death . But I hoped that probably his skills , his experience and he was highly trained that it might help . But it won't .

stephen barden 24:09

Were you ever ? Did you ever directly encounter Russian troops ?

Sofia 24:14

Yes , they were in Irpin for a month .

stephen barden 24:17

They were in Irpin for a month . (Yes) , when was that ? That was after Mariupol or before .

Sofia 24:22

No , no , no , it was before Mariupol , it was . They entered the subburbs of Kiev in March . There were tanks in Kiev , armoured tanks in Kiev , next to my university , actually so like , and I remember the local authorities provided men with guns . You just could have came and take one .

stephen barden 24:53

So they occupied where you were ? Yes , did they take you prisoner , did they ?

Sofia 24:59

Yes , they took our street , or it was already mainly women and kids . Like elderly people . They took us to the school basement and we spent 29 days in there . They were checking our papers , they were checking our bodies . If we have tattoos , if we have like Nazi signs on us , they do believe it seriously .

stephen barden 25:32

They believe that you're , -

Sofia 25:35

Yes , they believe , they do believe it . They were surprised at Irpin shock . It's a tiny city , like grown from a village . Like when a big city grows , it takes . (SB: It swallows up villages)Yes yes . And they were shocked that we have good roads , that we have nice houses , that we have iPads and iPhones in our houses . They were shocked . They thought we are like poor , like church mice .

stephen barden 26:22

And how did they -

stephen barden 26:23

How did they treat you in that basement ? What were they ? Were they rough ?

Sofia 26:27

People were dying in that basement . We stayed with dead bodies . (SB:They were dying and they didn't move the bodies ? ) . No .

stephen barden 26:36

And they were dying because of of of what ?

Sofia 26:41

We had like an elderly man . I didn't know that him before . I haven't spent a little bit of time in there . He was injured during the shelling . He has a bleeding knee and he was literally slowly dying in there .

stephen barden 27:00

And they left him there . Yes , I think you told me sometimes that you also broke your arm .

Sofia 27:08

Yes , yes , someone told them that my husband is in an army . Yes , someone wanted to escape , maybe torture him or just like we are talking too much . He said that my husband is in an army right now and they wanted to know his exact location . And we have the rule that the phone are switched . They are not using the when they are on the front line , they are not switching on the phones so they are trying to reach him and it was impossible . And one of them broke my hand .

stephen barden 27:59

To try and get you to tell them where they .

Sofia 28:03

Yes , they were sure that I can tell them the address .

stephen barden 28:09

So after 29 days - (Sofia: we were de-occupied ,) you were released .

Sofia 28:15

Yes .

stephen barden 28:16

And how did they then leave ? (Sofia:They ran away actually .

Sofia 28:23

They ran away One day . It was like it was one day In the morning they were here by lunch empty .

stephen barden 28:33

So when did you leave the Ukraine ?

Sofia 28:33

you leave the Ukraine .

stephen barden 28:38

And why ? Because your mother is still there . She won't leave , right ?

Sofia 28:43

No , I stayed in the city . I helped her to the hospital . I was trying to start working again , but it's not that easy now . It's possible , but not that easy now . And I stayed for a few months . I did nothing . I had no idea what I meant to do . I was very angry , it's you . I actually was angry over everything why people are alive , why everyone around me . This was like what that was . Then I went to my mom . She lives 15 kilometers from the Navy Air Base , 60 kilometers from the nuclear station , and one day I realized that the plant which is across the road from her .

Sofia 29:47

During the Soviet Union era it produced the details for military helicopters and when that thought struck me, oh and yes , they are shelling that airport like every week . Now they are looking for the F-16 in Ukraine and the pilots . They are trying to kill the as many pilots as they can . And I was like begging her to leave , but my grandmother said no , I'm not going anywhere . We are so and my brother is serving and I can't tell my mother if we are leaving . She will stay for sure .

Sofia 30:32

I stayed with her from October , november , December . E nd of October , I believe , yes , end of October till end of January , and for that month's we had no electricity at all , like not just the house or the street , but the whole region . And when the whole region is out of electricity , we have no mobile connection , no internet , nothing . You are going back to like ice age . You can't work , you can't look for work , you can't do nothing literally . And it was clear to me that I need to move , I need to do something , I need to go somewhere . I just took a train and go . I didn't plan it , I didn't expect to hope for something . I just realized I need to start moving because I have them , I need to take care of them , I need to have life to take care of them .

stephen barden 31:49

So you came to Germany ? (Sofia:Yes) , by train .

Sofia 31:54

By bus , by train , I've got to Poland . I've stayed for three days in there , but I didn't feel like staying there . I visited a few cities . It's not with me when I come somewhere . I do understand if I can live here or not . And in Poland it's good , it's nice and tidy and clean and its not that versatile . And I do understand Polish . Do you understand ? Yes , which is important . It should have been , yeah , but I just didn't feel like staying , so I took a bus to Berlin . I arrived here on 8th of February .

stephen barden 32:48

So since then you've . You'reworking hard, correct ? (Sofia: yes) , and you're still housed with other refugees .

Sofia 33:00

Yes , it's a refugee camp at the airport At the old Tegel Airport . Yes .

stephen barden 33:06

You said earlier that you were angry , and all the anger because of what had happened to you . And those feelings , of course , why is everybody else alive ? And my husband is dead . Have you been to the trauma centers here ? Because there are trauma centers .

Sofia 33:25

Yes , there is trauma centers and there is private doctors that offer help , and from here , all of our experience seems like a movie , like a book you're reading .

stephen barden 33:51

Somebody else's story .

Sofia 33:52

You don't believe it . You don't believe that one human might do it to another human . For them it's a horror story , mostly impossible For that . And my story is like an easy one , because we have those from Mariupol and I don't know how it's even possible to retell it , when kids were seeing their parents dying with them and parents were burying their kids in their garden .

stephen barden 34:39

Interesting , because a lot of the stories from refugees who come here from Africa , for example from I interviewed somebody last week from the Congo and he saw his father literally cut up in him and killed . His mother was raped , etc . And so those refugee centers , the trauma centers , have experience of that , because they talked to them , they tried to sort them out . So it's interesting that you felt there was no connection right , there was just no understanding of the reality because they couldn't .

Refugee's Purpose in Helping Others

stephen barden 35:29

So are you continuing with the treatment ? No , no , no . How do you cope ?

Sofia 35:40

Maybe with me it's easier . I do know that my relatives need me . I do know that Actually I provided them with a good life before . My mother and my grandmother worked hard all their life Like it was like day and night , non-stop . And when they became elder and I was working , I had a great salary . I was gladly doing everything I could . It's not I have to . I would like them . I would like them . In our tradition , you help , sure , and it's hard life . My mom never stopped working even for a day . She went for work . She had kids . She had householding . A huge one . . She had cattle at home she still had . It's easy not to do nothing . It's easy to grieve . It's easy I would like to To do nothing but to grieve , to do nothing but to dive into this .

stephen barden 37:02

But you have a purpose . That's what you're saying . You have a purpose .

Sofia 37:05

And now also Ukraine needs my help . I'm working , I can donate , I can help . So , and it's important now , today . Then , when it ends , we can grieve as much and as deep as we want to . Now , if we all will start grieving and there are thousands , of hundreds of people to grieve if we all started now , this moment , all the country will have to move out , literally to the last person in there . And one of my friends said , like , why , why don't you leave ? Why Just leave , like 40 million to go in where ? Oh , that's so many of you , yes , so many of us . And I have never understood alcoholism before . I was like how can you , how can you , how can you waste your time ? How can you ruin your health ? And now I do understand it . I understand it . Yes , it's great . When you need nothing , when you want nothing , when you whole , believe or expect nothing , you're just drinking . That's probably so good .

stephen barden 38:26

I hope you haven't tried it .

Sofia 38:28

No Good , no , no no .

stephen barden 38:30

I think we'll end there . Thank you very much . Thank you , that's lovely . That was Sophia , a refugee from Ukraine now living in Berlin , but the story doesn't end there . Since recording that conversation , late in 2023 , sophia's grandmother died , and not long after that , their home was destroyed by a bomb and Sophia's mother has finally been persuaded to join her daughter in Germany . So this story continues , as does the story of all refugees and migrants . If you've been a little moved by this podcast , please follow the show and tell your friends . I'm Stephen Barden . This is Migrant Odyssey .