Migrant Odyssey

Stephen

Welcome to another episode of Migrant Odyssey stories of and about migrants of all kinds People seeking a better life , people fleeing an unbearable one , all , I suspect , wishing they could fulfill themselves in their home countries . You know , there's something that I've realized a whole bunch of my guests have in common . While they may have come out of really difficult circumstances and they certainly have ambition and talent to push through that they don't , most of them , just focus on getting ahead . They get involved in so much else . One young world leaders , global shapers there are people who found and run projects that help others in need , and they don't just give this stuff token time and attention . They really work at it .

Stephen

My guest today is no exception . She's the founder of Kayani , a foundation supporting Palestinian women and girls . She's a social worker . She's a One Young World ambassador , a well-known conference speaker and currently finishing off her master's program in social work in Sweden , from where she spoke to me . Manal hi , welcome . Thank you for being here . I think the first question I'd like to ask you is when you look back on your childhood , what's the first event you remember ?

Manal

I think the most stark scene in my mind right now is me standing on the rooftop of my old house and looking at the sea . I've mentioned that in many interviews before , but this is really something , um , that I can't forget , like me as a young , young child standing and leaning my head on the wall , uh , of the balcony and just looking between like we had , because you know , in the camp they there are over lapped or , yeah , overlapped buildings and houses , and then you can see the sea in a very from a very like small , tiny scene between the buildings , because we had some skyscrapers around us , uh . So , yeah , I was looking at the sea and I was always asking myself as a child , will , will I get out of this camp ? Will I grow up and be something ? Um ?

Stephen

so I think this is the thing that's that is stuck in my mind right now and and as I child , were you thinking at the time , will I ever get out and and reach that sea , whatever , whether it's a physical sea or metaphorical sea ? Was there also delight in seeing the sea ? Surprise in seeing the sea ? Was there that as well ?

Manal

I think , because the sea was a reflection of peace and serenity From the perspective of a camp . You're living in chaos , so maybe the thing that I wanted more is just to reach the peacefulness in life , and maybe that was accompanied with my dreams like being something , achieving things , but also living in peace . So that was the the goal .

Stephen

Yeah okay , now we can . Now we can do the conventional stuff you were , we were born and brought up in a camp in lebanon , correct ? Yeah so your parents were they born and brought up there as well .

Manal

My father had a very harsh childhood . He lived through many wars and he was moving between multiple camps and he skipped school multiple times . Also , he was sick all the time but he always wanted to get educated times also , he was sick all the time but he always wanted to get educated . But he spent most of his life in in the camp between many camps , um . But my mom was um living in a camp but then she moved out of the camp at the after that . So , yeah , they both were born and raised in camps . But my dad's perspective was a bit of like instable between the camps and my mom was like just in one place , yeah , and so why ?

Stephen

I'd love to hear something of your parents as well . Why was your father's life so unstable ? Why was he moving ? Probably a stupid question , but why was he moving between camps ?

Manal

I guess because first , his family was not economically stable so that affected them in a way geographically and he had to , you know , support his siblings and mother , pay for education , and also the fact that Lebanon passed through so many wars , especially with the Israeli occupation , so he witnessed a lot of political uncertainties . So he had to move back and forth to many places .

Stephen

And his parents were . They born in Palestine .

Manal

Yes , my dad's parents were born in Palestine , but my mom's parents , no , they were born in Lebanon .

Stephen

And did you meet your dad's parents ?

Manal

No , never , I just saw them .

Manal

I saw my grandpa on the photos off on the photos , um , but my but I lived with my grandma , from my dad's side , with her , um , couple of years left for her life . So I was , so I was a child when I was , you know , spending time with her , and actually now I feel that I regret that I don't have a lot of time with her , because if I go back , I could have changed so many things and maybe lived with her more , because she always used to tell me stories about Palestine and her life there , and she left , after her death , a hairbrush , but the hairbrush , but the hairbrush was for the horse she used to brush the horse , the horse hair , in palestine . So I , I felt , I feel now that , um , I wish I can connect to her more and listen more . To start , because , like when you're a child , you don't care that much to what they say , uh , but now you feel like , uh , the impact of it . So , yeah , when , when you recall back on what they say , and , of course , the child is .

Stephen

it's the universal thing is that the child doesn't know , doesn't know what it means . But of course , you can now connect in different ways with her , don't you ? You connect in completely different ways , different ways with her , don't you ? You connect in completely different ways . So what was it like , if I may ask , being the daughter of a father whose life had been so disrupted so , yeah , completely disrupted ? What was that like for you ?

Manal

yeah , completely disrupted . What was that like for you ? It's , uh , it's very hard . I wouldn't say it's easy because , um , I think my dad is someone who is very resilient , but he did not get the chance to process his emotions , especially the ones from childhood and as someone who got in depth in exploring , you know , psychology and personality things . So now I see what he goes through and I see the reflection of his actions because of this childhood . I don't think he would connect so much if I explain to him , because my interpretations would be much different from the way he perceived things , but that definitely affected us as a family .

Manal

Um , now , um , as I said , he always wanted us to leave , uh , because we're all we're gonna be're going to remain refugees in Lebanon , but now he wants us to come back , you know , and stay with him . And also this is a kind of instability , because we are from childhood . The goal was to plan for a stable life and now he's like come back and he's doing everything to reunite us . So I think he has this kind of instability mindset um , it's not a bad thing , but also it's it's it's a thing that has to be fixed .

Stephen

So , yeah , so how many siblings did you have ? Tell me something about your family and just give us an insight stories from your growing up in the camp . What was it like in the camp ? How many siblings ? You said you spent your early time living with your grandmother . Why was that so ? All that just in your entire life in a few seconds , yeah .

Manal

So we lived in Mar Elias Camp , which is the smallest refugee camp in Lebanon , and our house .

Stephen

Where is that ? Is that south ? Where is that ?

Manal

It's in the center of the capital city . Our house was a big house . Actually it was two blocks . We had two blocks of the house . My grandma used to live in the second floor because it was a three-floor building . She lived in the second floor because it was three floor building and she lived in the second floor . We used to go down all the time to serve her the food , live with her , check on her . My dad used to stay with her from time to time because she needed someone to sleep in this in the same house , and we lived on the third floor and we had the rooftop . So so it was a big house and , um , I have four siblings , two sisters and two brothers , and I come in the middle .

Manal

Um , I feel my childhood with my siblings was very close to my sisters , um , and very detached from my brother's life . So we used to fight all the time and you know , because we were young , similar age , also living in a camp , small area . So you know , when children are located in a crowded place , they fight most of the time in terms of arguing . I mean not physical fight . So my , my childhood was so close to my sisters and uh , uh , yeah , it got better when we grow up .

Manal

Our relationship got very intimate , even from with my brother , I think when we all scattered over Europe , all over Europe , we felt that we have to connect more . So we really appreciate that and we always thank mostly our mom , because she's a very tender person and she always makes sure that we have to connect all the time and ask about each other . So my dad is a very instrumental person and in terms of like , um , he doesn't look after emotions , but he looks after what we achieved , what are we doing now ? These things . So we have these two types of parenting styles , but my mom , I think , was the person behind , mostly behind like unifying us because we had to ask about each other most of the time . So , yeah , that's , in brief , my relationship with my siblings .

Stephen

And when you say that they're scattered all over Europe , have all the siblings now left , all the siblings outside Lebanon ? Is that what's happening ?

Manal

Yes , except one of them , which is the youngest brother , because he's in school now in Lebanon . But we plan to , you know , support him in university and we believe there is no future in education for refugees in Lebanon , so we plan to support him in the education year and journey abroad .

Stephen

So yeah , so the camp was right in the center of Beirut , right yeah , the center of Beirut , right , mm-hmm . And how is it defined as a camp in that center of my mind's , trying to get around this ? In the center of a capital city , there is a camp . How does ?

Manal

that define it . Yeah , when I say I lived in a camp , people think that I lived in a tent .

Stephen

Yes , I know Like no guys , you have to chill .

Manal

It's not a tent . Yes , I know I'm like no guys , you have to chill . It's not a tent , we're not camping .

Manal

No , no , you're not camping , no , but yeah , it's like and it's not a type of slums , so also , we should not think about it like that . It's overcrowded buildings that that were built in in an informal way and not in an urban oriented way . You know , um , it's legal and to get in and out there are no restrictions , there are informal exits and entries , so it's like having a wide path that leads you out , um , and it had around five to six exits from different sides . Some other camps actually have walls and , uh , and have checkpoints and very critical to get in and out and you have to show your id and you have to have a specific id . But that was not applicable to the camp we lived in because it was so small , very peaceful , so yeah , Right so .

Stephen

So how were you educated ? When we were talking a few days ago , you mentioned to me you went to a school outside the camp , right ? So tell me about that and what was it like in terms of the quality of education ? But also , what was it like with your fellow pupils , Lebanese pupils ? Was there any form of discrimination ? How did you feel more than anything else ?

Manal

Yeah , so I spent a good time in a private school that was not that far from my camp . I used to go with a bus , school bus that used to take me and return me to the camp with my siblings . And , yeah , not everyone in the camp was able to access these schools because the parents had to pay for them . So , um , but uh , yeah , it was a Lebanese school and it was a Muslim school , so we were mostly Muslims . Uh , this is the kind of education in Lebanon we don't have , um , secular schools . It's mostly religious . So Christians have schools , muslims , etc

Educational Challenges for Palestinian Refugees

Manal

.

Manal

And I don't think we experienced racism that much in schools , because there were a lot of Palestinians also . But also , yeah , sometimes my sister , she used to recall on some racist experiences . For example , one time her teacher said that you , the Palestinians , have sold your land , so that's why you don't want to return back . So , as a child , hearing that , you always question what is she saying . And , yeah , so we did not know that that was racist , but now we know , of course , when we grow up . We did not know that that was racist , but now we know , of course , when we grow up .

Manal

But then I had to move to a UN school , which is an honorable school , as I mentioned before , and that was for the purpose of securing a scholarship in the university , a university scholarship . So I moved in grade 11 . Scholarship so , uh , I moved in grade 11 and that was the , I think , the turning point for me , because it was an extreme educational system that I always advocate for , you know , changing and rebel , rebelling against , and there was a lot of discrimination against the Palestinian students in Lebanon .

Stephen

There are no At this school sorry , at this UN school there was a lot of discrimination .

Manal

Yeah , as I mentioned before , this school was located in a very politically critical area between multiple Lebanese and non-Lebanese political groups , so whenever they clash , we were always centered in the middle , so we were not allowed to go to any school trips . Also , we did not have that much visitors coming to schools and whenever we have visitors , we had to had to , you know , change the whole system , like hang things on the wall , just to prove that the education was the greatest . So we used to do more activities . On the day of when the visitor visitors used to come , we had , uh , unrepresentatives coming to school and on these specific days it was like definitely different way of education , because we had to look that , oh , we are doing great with the , with the money we're getting from the UN , so they can , you know , fund the education more and more and I'm never ashamed of talking about that because that's something has to change and still goes on until today .

Stephen

And that was something , sorry , give me some more of that . That's important and very interesting . So , basically , you have a UN-funded school right and it calls itself the un , a un school , correct it's ? It's ? It's under the name of the un right , then staffed , I assume , by local , uh , with local lebanese teachers and administrators , correct , is that right ?

Manal

mostly palestinians actually .

Stephen

Oh it's staffed by Palestinians . Okay , and then you said then , basically so the system of education , would that have been the Lebanese system curriculum , or that would have been an international curriculum ? What would it have been ?

Manal

That's number one Lebanese .

Stephen

Lebanese . Okay , and why did you feel ? Because clearly it affected you quite dramatically . Why did you feel that it was a system that needed rebelling against ? Because it was such an extreme ? What was extreme about it ?

Manal

So there were a lot of fights inside the school during the , the playground , when we had a break and some students used to use some items while fighting . So also , when a student fights with a teacher , the system always says that the right is with the student , not the teacher . So I remember one time um a guy , he stabbed a teacher's hand with a scissor and he was not held accountable the student . So that was scary , because it's like a jungle , you know , and reinforcing this what do you call it ? The anger and aggressiveness in the students . And that was , I think , something that someone wanted to reinforce in us as refugees . As refugees , so also , I had friends who experienced a lot of violence within the camps they lived in and their families . So they used to skip a lot of classes . But the school system was like , okay , come to school and be in the school whether you attend the classes or not , but just , it's better than like staying on the street . It's like , okay , come to school and be in the school whether you attend the classes or not , but just it's better than like staying on the street . So whether you skip school or not , you are always welcome to come back .

Manal

Yeah , so , and there was a lot of hopelessness among students . A lot , um , they were . They were so smart , and they are , until now . But since they are not exposed to the external world in lebanon , they don't have connection with the , with anything , and they feel that there's no need to . You know , sometimes study or dream or whatever , and you can have two types of students who are very persistent and they want to reach something in their life , and some people are extremely hopeless and and the fact that you are not allowed to work in many fields in around 73 fields in Lebanon . So they always have this narrative of okay , why would you work so hard and become an engineer ? If you're not allowed , you will end up opening a bakery store in the camp . Or they will always refer back to this thing like , yeah , see all the engineers or the doctors . They are sitting in groups on the exits and entries of the camp , like they don't have jobs , so there is no need to . You know , stress a lot on the education .

Stephen

Yeah , and that's a sort of recurring theme , isn't it ? Amongst all refugees as well . You get people coming into Europe from wherever from Palestine , from Syria , from Africa where they're not allowed to work or practice their profession . So they end up opening up the working in the local grocery store or whatever , when they've got these huge skills that are just never used . So you went to university in Lebanon at the start , is that right ? Yeah , Because I assume you were a very good student at school as well as university , Is that right ?

Manal

No , I was really bad at school as well as university , is that right ? No , I was really bad at school like my sisters were extremely smart and they were always getting rewards in school , and like you know how you , they have this morning speeches before you go to class yes , I was like the bad person and .

Manal

But then what struck me and made this shift is that I had anorexia when I was in grade nine , so I feared to fail . I don't know . I had this thing . I always feared that I will repeat this grade . Grade nine , so the school told me not to come to school anymore , just for one year to rest but I always so that I started studying so much , waking up at 5 am and studying everything , going to school , doing the exams even when I'm sick . And then I wanted to get you know , because we have grades like excellent , good , very good and fair in the official tests . So I wanted to get the good or very good one , because my sisters always got the excellent . So they inspired me a lot . Actually , it was not like a negative competition between us . They inspired me a lot . And then I became a smart person . I used to teach students how to cheat . I had the really good tactics and that's why I have a problem with my eyes now , because I used to write , you know , small letters .

Stephen

And she I love it Happy how it ? Turned out . I love it yeah happy so it's interesting because I was going to ask you . You know this . So you had anorexia when you were . How old were you ? Uh ?

Stephen

I was in grade nine , so I'm probably 14 yeah , yeah , but then you linked it to you know , you just did not want to fail , right . And was that something you know ? We talk about people whose parents and grandparents have gone through great suffering and great grandparents sometimes have gone through great suffering who feel that they owe them something . They owe them to strive , they owe them to to to do more than what they are almost become superhuman . Is that something that you have ? It's this . Knowing you know the .

Manal

The cliche is knowing that you were on the shoulders of giants yes , I had that a lot and , um , it's not because of my parents , it's because of the culture we live in . You know the system in the country and does not support you as a person on all levels . So they don't support financially or health-wise , medically or whatever . So you have to always work hard to pay yourself , and finding a job is very important to be able to sustain in life , otherwise you will go through a really hard economic stage so , or crisis . So , yeah , and I think my parents , like , wanted us to study and work and have families . They always insist of getting married all of us and have families . So that was the goal . Just to because , also in lebanon , you have this stigma of if you fail and that's not something good you are they label you , and it's sometimes really hard emotionally and psychologically for a child to repeat the same grade . So I always feared that , especially that I was a sister of really smart siblings . I didn't want to get that label as well .

Stephen

Yeah , yeah . So you went to just to sort of tie up those ends . You went to university to do an undergraduate degree in Lebanon and you graduated there . Is that right .

Manal

Yeah , I got two scholarships , one in in Cyprus and one in Lebanon . So my parents chose to that I study in Lebanon . Uh , I got this scholarship , but also I back then I did not know what to study . So my first major was literature review , english literature , and everyone was choosing on behalf of me what to study . They were like , oh , do business , oh do that , because you know I studied what .

Manal

Do you call it sociology and economics because you have two sectors before you go to university , at school . So you either end up studying sociology and economics or you go into science . And yeah , so my sisters were in the science part and I was like , of course , on the other part , the , the fields in the university were so limited . So English literature was the first thing I was just choosing . But I was emotionally drained because that's something that did not reflect me and what I wanted . So , but after , and my GPA was so low during the first semester . But then I switched to social work and it's because , also , I , at the age of 18 , I started volunteering a lot . So I was like social work is close to community service , so that would suits me . So that's how I ended up studying social work .

Stephen

Yeah , okay , and then you left Lebanon . When ?

Manal

I graduated in 2019 , and then I went to the United States for a while and came back , worked for two , three years and then I left to Europe after that .

Stephen

And you went . Is that right ? Did you go to Spain first ? Is that correct ? The University in Spain Is that correct ? No , go to Spain first , is that correct ? University in Spain is that correct ? No to Portugal , to Portugal , forgive me , my memory goes with the age . So you went to Portugal , to university there ? Yeah , and just tell me briefly something about that , and then we will stop the linear biographical and I'll ask you all sorts of other questions so , uh , yeah , I struggled to reach europe .

Manal

It was not an easy journey because palestinians are not recognized by many european countries and portugal is one of them , so it took me a long time to get my visa to . But I got supported by journalists and my friends who were in the master's program . They made a petition , they spoke to the parliament and then I ended up getting a short term visa 90 days and then I traveled , yeah , and then I went to my second semester , which is , which was in Norway , and then I moved to my second semester , which was in Norway , and then I moved to Sweden .

Manal

At the end , so at least , as you're going along , you're getting more and more , and the instability continues because you know , now I have a bag travel bag that is literally churned that I have to change . It lived with me for a while .

Stephen

And your postgraduate , your master's , is in what Is in social work .

Manal

Yeah , social work with families and children . Okay .

Stephen

I've always , you know , I was brought up , I suppose , in my time , thinking and knowing that Palestinians are some of the most educated , highly skilled people coming out of the Middle East and , of course , in the diaspora , in some very highly skilled positions and jobs . So you know , I've always seen them as extremely capable people and jobs . So you know , I've always seen them as an extremely capable people . I'm always surprised when the palestinians , many palestinians that I meet , worry that they're not as highly regarded as . Certainly I learned to .

Palestinian Identity, Challenges, and Empowerment

Stephen

How , when , when you think of yourself as a palestinian , what does that make you feel , knowing that there are influences clearly in the world that say you're stateless , I don't recognize you , you came out of a camp , et cetera . Tell me what that makes you feel when you think of yourself as a Palestinian .

Manal

Yeah , it comes with a huge feeling of pride . I feel that I'm a very , very , very unique person because of being Palestinian , because our existence challenges a lot of people , a lot , a lot of politicians and groups of politicians and groups . It's not about eliminating other people , but I'm saying our existence is a proof of a lot of things from the history , language , food , culture , whatever . So I feel so proud of being Palestinian and I don't think I would ever be something else . But it also comes with a huge pain because it has a price to be a Palestinian and the price is not easy , as you think at all . You have to sacrifice a lot of things related to having a nationality , voting , owning a house , owning things . So , yeah , and you know , when you move to Europe or out of the Middle East , you challenge a whole universe that has a lot of support to the occupation I'm not saying the entire world , but there are a lot of support to the occupation . I'm not saying the entire world , but there are a lot of countries and cultures that still disregard the history of Palestinians . So you have to stand alone and , you know , always prove that you're right . It's a matter of ignorance , because it's so easy to see the reality . We don't have to paint anything . Our reality is so obvious and it's very clear . And the fact that I had a lot of European friends coming to Lebanon with a really different mindset about the reality of Palestinians , by me taking them to the camps and just telling them I respect who you are , but just speak to the people . When they saw and spoke to the people and they experienced what people have experienced , they changed their mind .

Manal

So I think there is a lot of ignorance , because some people don't want to read , don't want to change , and they just stick to one source of information . They don't want to read or debate . And yeah , that's one thing . And I think the media plays a big role of what they see . You know , because I spoke to a lot of people from different countries and they said , um , I don't want to bother myself , um , by looking at the reality of other people and in the other part of the world .

Manal

And I found that very cruel because for me it's very interesting to you know , and I'm never , never shocked about what's happening because , you know , when I lived in norway and I was studying , I was living in two realities uh , I had german friends , I had the norwegian friends and french and whatever . We lived together and um , when there was some wars and going on in Gaza and strikes even during the holy month of Ramadan , I was crying all the time in my room and trying to . You know , when I they ask me what's happening and I tell them about this reality . They never connect to what I say because I'm introduced to the reality from valuable resources live streams and live resources but the kind of media they see is totally different . So we were never on the same page of understanding this reality . So I was not shocked , but also it was a huge pain .

Stephen

Moving on to something completely different , tell me something about um . What do you do for joy ? What do you do to enjoy yourself ? Do you do you do you like ? Do you like eating ? Do you like listening to music ? Do you like , do you like ?

Manal

I think I have a really huge energy that I always try to embrace and that goes , comes out when I do outdoor activities . So when I run , when I swim , when I ride a bicycle , when I do things that keep me going fast , so that enthuses my energy . I like to do that . I never like to sit and be in a closed area , so I feel so bored . I'm not a friend of board cards and board games at all . I hate that . So , yeah , I always stick to outdoor activities .

Stephen

And are you ever silly ?

Manal

All the time .

Stephen

Really , oh my .

Manal

God , when people see me , they don't know the other part of me , the other face of me . I'm a very , very funny person . You cannot expect that I'm that person , but I only embrace it with those who match my energy or those who can handle it , because I just came to a conclusion that not everyone handles , uh , certain types of energy .

Stephen

Yeah , yeah , yeah . And then , just finally , to close off , you run a foundation in the camps . Yeah , tell us something about that , because that's also some really valuable work there .

Manal

Yeah , it's a small initiative sort of organization . Initiative sort of organization . We try to run projects inside the camp that based on the needs of the females . We also encourage the inclusiveness of men and young boys , but the main focus is on women .

Stephen

We do through Sorry , women , and what in particular ? What does that mean ? Women ?

Manal

uh , it means that , um , young girls , females who live in um economically um restricted families or in communities that have violence . So , like I , just when I think about it , I just think about women who need support in general . So , since I studied abroad my whole life , I was exposed to many welfare systems and many municipalities and NGOs and programs and conferences , so I tried to bring everything that I learned to the camp in any way I can . So that's what I do . It's very diverse .

Manal

We , for example , we made the first mental health case management project . We worked on child protection , on referral of cases . Now we work on media and capacity building in relation to peace and security work , um , we worked on rehabilitation of ex-prisoners . We did a lot of things and we are doing still . But I think we still need people from the camp like me , the young girls , because they are the ones who will grow up and they have to give back to the camp . So I try to , you know , promote that through my initiative , just to support those who are in need , but also ensure that they continue providing support after me and them .

Stephen

And do you find A ? Is there a lot of passion amongst women and young girls to take on the role , to carry it forward ? To take on the role , to carry it forward .

Gender Equality Initiatives in Refugee Camps

Manal

And do you also have resistance , backlash from more traditional ? Yeah , there is a lot of resistance because we never thought about leaving the camp . It's part of our identity , whether we are rich or poor . It's something that brought us to Lebanon and we cannot leave it until we are free , and so that's why we and there is a big community of people that need us , so we cannot just turn our back and leave , even if we travel .

Manal

And I think now , since we live in the capital city as well , we got so many NGOs that wanted to support the camp , so they are now open to collaborations and stuff like that . So I don't think there is a resistance , but to certain topics , of course . For example , any project related to feminist work or even challenging the religious concepts . That's a huge issue in the camp . So on the International Women's Day , we had a lot of backlashes from religious groups in the camp and a lot of work that was related to women empowerment was paused and stopped just because we are working on women empowerment and that's something that always keeps us going and , you know , insisting to provide support .

Stephen

It's not a trendy thing just like oh , women empowerment , and I understand that Defying the voices it's a real problem that we have , that we have to continue to work on and you say you're bringing the men and young men , boys , men in as well to try and as part of the program . Is that right ? Yes , and how do you do that and why ?

Manal

Because a lot of NGOs think that fighting , you know , sexism by just focusing on women . But we have to start from the families , from the young people . We have to change a lot of ideologies , even among young boys and men , and not to bring them to our side , but just to make sure that they get the right education about how to respect women , how to treat them , how to be part of a family , a healthy family system . And you know , you do your role as a father and a mother or whatever , as a parent . So , and at the same time , men do want to , you know , they are open to learn and have these discussions . So we don't want to fight sexism with sexism , you know . So we , we truly believe that we have to have equal opportunities for everyone .

Stephen

Yeah , Okay , well now thank you very , very much . Thank you , lovely to see you and we will talk soon , I hope . My guest today was manal makki . This has been another episode of Migrant Odyssey , and I'm Stephen Barton .