Migrant Odyssey
This series is specifically aimed at helping to change the current fear-ridden attitude of the wealthy world to migrants, as well as to grant the migrants themselves (be they refugees or economic and climate driven) a voice of self confidence and pride.
We'll be talking to extraordinary people who are transforming themselves and their host countries, with courage and ingenuity.-
If the title of the podcast is “Migrant Odyssey”, its spirit is certainly “Too big to contain”.
Your podcast host is Stephen Barden
Migrant Odyssey
Ahmad's story: from sight to insight
Ahmad Jaafil shares his story of extraordinary and persistent willpower, He talks matter of factly about his severe and rare eye disease and the horrendous struggle to try and save his sight- in Lebanon and then the USA. If you want to know, in painful detail, what it's like for a family to do everything and more to heal their young son, this episode will do that for you.
And it's also a story of
- fierce determination and huge will
- of a young man who went from being seen as "hopeless and weak" by his classmates to being named student of the year
- of the power of acceptance of what is, but not of what can be
Help support Waves to Home (www.wavestohome.org) and amplify the stories of all uprooted people around the world.
And, please do tell us what you think and feel about Migrant Odyssey.
We need your support. We love your feedback
Hello, I'm Stephen Barden. Welcome to Migrant Odyssey and thank you for your support. My guests on this podcast have mostly been introduced by other guests. Sure, my curiosity, and sometimes pure opportunism, has led me to find others, particularly those who are associated with and care for migrants, but mostly it's been my guests that have been the link. Right from the very first podcast, when Dendak Malual, from Africa's largest refugee camp, Kakuma in Kenya, put me in touch with people they knew, and so on. In the process, I met Zoya, who you'll remember is the half-Palestinian, half-Ukrainian young woman who had to get out of two war zones, and Firas, who introduced us, or certainly me, to maqluba, the upside-down dish that is a parable for the insanity of life for Palestinians in the West Bank. And they in turn introduced me to Waves to Home, which shares the foundational aim of this podcast to enable migrants to tell their stories, not as victims, but as the treasure that is their humanity. Waves to Home is this extraordinary organization, or, more appropriately, movement. that provides, as they put it, a safe space for refugees, migrants a nd displaced and indigenous communities to share their stories, find inner strength nd inspire the world with their resilience. Waves to Home clearly understands that out humanity, our dignity, our self-worth, whoever we are and wherever we are is embedded in the ability to reveal ourselves in the caravan that is our ancestors, our peers and those who will follow us . The team from Waves to Home travel all over the world to speak, to hold workshops and, mostly, to listen. The chances are that any guest you hear from now on on this podcast will have been introduced by Waves to Home. If Waves provide the safe space for migrants to tell their stories, I hope that I will provide one of the windows for them to be heard in the 400 cities and nearly 60 countries where this podcast is listened to. Take a look at their website. It's waves to home. All one word org. I'll also put the address in the show notes.
Stephen :Now to today's episode and today's guest. This is a story about a young man who, despite severe visual impairment, fought through to both triumph over his affliction and to use it as a tool to help others. Ahmad left Lebanon for the US with his family, not because they fled the wars and destruction, but because decades of those wars, invasions and social degradation left the country unable to provide him with the treatment that he And no, this isn't a story about going to the US for free services. Ahmad and his family paid their way in hard-earned money and a huge amount of resilience, and he's now planning to build a global business that he's probably better equipped to do than any fully sighted person. Ahmad hello, thank you for coming on to Migrant Odyssey.
Ahmad:Hello, stephen, thank you for having me. I'm really excited.
Stephen :I think your story when we get into it is I was thinking about it is a perfect illustration is that people move countries for a lot of reasons, not always because of war and conflict and things like that, but also because of the disparity of facilities medical facilities and health facilities that exist between rich countries and those that have been afflicted by war and poverty. You're Lebanese. Tell me something, what it means to you to be Lebanese because you're now living in the United States, in Michigan.
Ahmad:Yes, what it means for me to be Lebanese. It's my identity, it's where I was. Lebanon is where I was born, where I was raised. I definitely had some amazing memories there. I loved this country a lot. I've had a love-hate relationship for a good part of my life. Recently, considering the war that happened there, I started to appreciate it even more and I started to appreciate our even more and I started to appreciate our culture, our traditions, and this was amplified by me also being outside of Lebanon and living in the United States for three years without going back there even once. So I started to appreciate Lebanon even more and I started to have this great sense of pride of being Lebanese, considering what the country has been through and its history and how my relation with the country has developed over time.
Stephen :What is the strength that you have? That comes from your roots.
Ahmad:The strength I have coming from my roots, coming from Lebanon, I think it's mostly resilience. Lebanon has been through a lot over the years. Our people have suffered a lot from wars, invasions and poverty, and economic turmoil and downfall. Yet the funny thing is, and you keep seeing them having a smile on their face, regardless, you still see them persevering that. You still see them trying to rebuild what was destroyed, uh, picking up the fallen pieces, uh, that that embodies a lot of strength. That embodies a lot of strength. And for me, my personal journey, I've been resilient a lot, considering the hardships and challenges that I had to face in my life.
Stephen :You were born in Saida in Lebanon, correct? Yes, in 1998, and you were born with a visual impairment. Can you tell us something about that and tell us something about how that developed? There is a story with that that we'd really love to hear.
Ahmad:Yes, I was born with a very rare eye disease called Knobloch syndrome. This disease is very rare worldwide. In the US, for instance, less than a thousand people have this disease. This disease, what it mainly affects or targets? It targets the eyes. For the most part. It causes the eyes to have retinal detachments frequently. It makes you vulnerable to having glaucoma and other eye conditions. Unfortunately, I have had both retinal detachments in both eyes and glaucoma in the left eye and I've lost sight completely in my right eye and I've lost a good chunk of my sight in my left eye as a result of the retinal detachment and glaucoma, but thankfully I'm still able to see a little. So I'm still considered visually impaired rather than fully blind.
Stephen :How much can you see?
Ahmad:Like on a scale to 10 or let's say, if we want to measure it by distance, the farthest I can see is like one meter.
Stephen :If I was one meter from you, what would you be able to see of my face?
Ahmad:I would be able to see, like the shape of your face, the color, maybe even the color of what you're wearing, but when it comes to specific details like facial hair, the color of your eyes, that would be a bit difficult for me.
Stephen :Okay, so the story in itself and I want to. When you were born with this Nobloch syndrome and it affected you when you were a very young child, at school, didn't it?
Ahmad:absolutely it did. It did because I was the only student at my school who had a severe eye condition like that like of course you would see other students or classmates wearing glasses, but that those were just for correction. I had something that was entirely different. I was always seated at the front desk and at the center of the class and I never changed my place for the whole year. That was sort of unprecedented maybe in my school and maybe even unheard of, because people, or our society as a whole, doesn't shed too much light, if any, on people with any sort of disability
Stephen :What do you mean by that? They don't have sympathy, or they simply simply take it as something that is, that happens ?
Ahmad:what I mean by that is they don't empathize, they, they don't want to understand it. There's like this. There are like stereotypes created by society that give them an image of people like me that we are weak, we are hopeless and there's nothing we can do about it. And there aren't, unfortunately, any support systems in Lebanon that support people like me in terms of providing vocational rehabilitation, for instance, or even proper accommodations at school
Ahmad:To be honest with you, when I was in school, I didn't get accommodations like I would get here in the United States. The most you know that my school would do for me was just have my tests, quizzes or other printed material be in large print, and they would always have me sit in the front. And later on, especially like during middle school and high school, when it became harder for me to copy off the board, I started using some of my friend's notebooks to photocopy their notes into large print and I would use my digital magnifier to read off of them. I didn't have access to screen reading softwares like I do today, and that would have made a significant impact for me academically. That would have helped me a lot and I could imagine my grades being totally different than what they ended up being had. I had the accommodations that I have today.
Stephen :Ahmad in the Lebanon. Would you say that the lack of facilities is because of lack of, just lack of money that's allocated, or would you say it's because it is what you said earlier, that there is a lack of empathy? Which one is it, or is it both?
Ahmad:I would say it's both, but it's mostly a lack of empathy, a lack of awareness and a lack of understanding. Even when Lebanon was in its heyday, not a lot of emphasis was placed on people with disabilities. Like to give you a better picture of someone who is visually impaired or blind in Lebanon . So you go to school, you graduate, even though you didn't have the proper accommodations. You go to university and a lot of blind and visually impaired people there find it very difficult to get into a respectable university that can provide some accommodation for them. And even if they do, and they do graduate, there's a lack of job opportunities available. And even if they were a good fit for a job, or even if there was something available, people wouldn't hire them because of their disability. They doubt them, they think they're not capable of handling the responsibility.
Ahmad:Personally, I know a few blind and visually impaired people who have university degrees who ended up working jobs that had nothing to do with what they majored in. They ended up being receptionists and secretaries. That's their ceiling.
Stephen :And you find it entirely different in the US.
Ahmad:Very different. It's a whole different world, and I first came to the US in 2004. I didn't place much emphasis on the matter. I was just young, I was just a kid and my vision was fine at the time. But fast forward 10 years later, I lost vision in my right eye and I wasn't receiving proper health care in Lebanon. We received our green card in 2014,. My family and I and we came to California. I saw a huge difference in many things. Including how they treat blind and visually impaired people here, like here and in the US, you do get to feel that you are a human being who matters in this society and you are a human being who can make a difference and who can achieve anything who he or she wants. Its not the same in Lebanon unfortunately.
Stephen :Are you saying it doesn't matter in the united states whether you have money or not. You're still going to get, you're still going to get the care. Is that what you're saying?
Ahmad:um, in the united states, uh, whether you have money or not, you still get the care. Like, if you mean in terms of health insurance, like there are programs where low-income individuals or unemployed individuals get free health care from the government, and I received that health care when I first arrived here and I was still unemployed, I was receiving care at the University of Michigan, one of the top hospitals and universities in all of the US. I was being seen by one of the brightest doctors in all of the nation
Stephen :That's good to know. So you, you, had the visual impairment and then, at the age of 12, when you, you mentioned that, you, you, you lost vision in your, in your right eye. But that was the result of a sort of a double whammy, wasn't it? One was damaged to the eye when you were playing with your cousin and then the other one was as a result of surgery. Can you tell us something about that?
Ahmad:and that was in the Lebanon yes, yes, that was in Lebanon and I remember when it all started. Um, it was actually on a Sunday. It was October 9, 2011. My cousin came. My cousins came over on a on that afternoon. We, we loved wrestling. Um, we were wrestling in my room.
Ahmad:My cousin accidentally kicked my eye when he was intending to kick my chin. But the kick was so hard I fell back and I couldn't move for a minute or so. My right eye got red. I wasn't too concerned at the time. I thought like, okay, the hit was strong, I don't think it's going to be something serious, it's just some redness. It'll go away when I go to bed.
Ahmad:I woke up the next morning. Vision was terrible. I could barely see with my eye. The vision was blurrier than what it was before. I was also having some double vision to a certain extent.
Ahmad:Long story short, I went to see my regular ophthalmologist. He referred me to a surgeon and he was considered one of the best in the country at the time. So it turned out that the retina in my right eye had detached as a result of the kick and we needed to put it back in place. We agreed to the surgery. We saw the surgeon and everything seemed fine. We went into the surgery and it was supposed to take something between 15 and 45 minutes. It ended up taking two and a half hours. My parents were very concerned and had a feeling that something had gone wrong. When the doctor came out, he said that everything is perfectly fine.
Ahmad:A month later my parents started to notice that my right eye was starting to grow, was starting to get smaller in size, as if it was shrinking or deflating, and my vision hadn't made any significant improvement compared to what the doctor originally told us. So we asked the doctor about it. We confronted him and he said that the eye has lost pressure completely and it's starting to deflate and there's nothing we can do about it and I'll never be able to restore my vision in it at all. So we heard what he said and we visited ophthalmologists all over the country my parents and I. We wanted to take their opinion and their take, and we were still optimistic and hopeful that there would be something. There was always that glimmer of hope shining inside us.
Ahmad:Eventually, almost all of them said that there was a mistake done during the surgery and the mistake was that, instead of placing silicon oil in the eye. The doctor placed some sort of gas and that did some sort of reaction that damaged my eye, and the recovery wasn't complete. He even told me that I'm not allowed to travel outside the country for six months because something bad could happen to my eye if I was at a high altitude, if I was flying so fast forward. We came to the US. The ophthalmologist at the University of California saw it. He told me that it's too late to save it. Had I seen him, like maybe two or three months after that surgery, he would have been able to save my eye, but I lost it
Stephen :hmm, yes, that
Stephen :must have been devastating.
Stephen :Just hearing you talking about it. Uh, is is devastating. So you then, in 2016 is that right? Your left eye vision blurred and got worse, and you decided to go to the US, and again, you had a dramatic change there, didn't you?
Ahmad:Yes, yes, there was, unfortunately my. My life changed to the worse at the time I it had been only two or three days after my finals in 11th grade. I was just enjoying it on a regular evening. I was just enjoying some good PlayStation. I even had plans for the summer, but anyway, my vision in my left eye was totally fine. Everything was good. Then I went to bed.
Ahmad:Next morning I wake up and out out of the blue, my vision is terrible. In my left eye it was too blurry, I could barely see. My eye was bloody red and it was scary and sometimes like. I could still see with it, of course, but sometimes my vision would just black out. I could not see anything in front of me, but then my vision would come back. It was like you were turning a light switch on and off randomly. It was super scary for me.
Ahmad:My mother and I. We decided to travel to California to see my ophthalmologist at UCLA. Two or three days before my appointment, I started to experience severe decline in the vision, accompanied by severe pain in my left eye. I started developing symptoms like nausea, vomiting, severe headache. I couldn't even walk and I wasn't myself anymore. We ended up going to the emergency room at UCLA and eventually I got to see my ophthalmologist and it turned out we discovered that I had glaucoma in my left eye and there were a lot of blood vessels that were inside the eye that were blocking my vision, and I needed surgery immediately. So five days, just five days after arriving in the US, I had a big surgery where they performed three big procedures in one go, in which they inserted a drainage tube inside of my eye for the glaucoma, they put the retina back in place because it had detached because of the high pressure and the blood vessels, and they had to clean out the blood vessels that were in there.
Ahmad:Now, after the surgery, my vision took a long time to recover. It was a gradual recovery process. My doctor told me that because of the trauma my eye had sustained, I needed at least a year to start seeing proper results. I had to stay with my mother in California for three months. We had to spend the whole summer there, although we initially thought it was just going to be a one-month thing, but we ended up postponing and delaying our return to Lebanon. To make matters even worse, my school was starting soon.
Ahmad:I was entering my senior year and that year was very important in Lebanon, and that's a school, as in high school was it, yes, yes, high school, and that senior year is considered very difficult because at the end you have to take what we call, in Lebanon, official or government exams and you have to pass those in order to graduate from high school. But those exams, what you need to study for them, is basically the entire senior year curriculum. So I had to study every subject that I took, every class I took and everything we had taken from the beginning of the school year till the end of it. So that was a long mountain to climb.
Stephen :But in fact you hadn't been there for much of that year, so you had to study stuff that you hadn't actually been in. Is that right?
Ahmad:That is correct. That is correct. I missed the first month of school and when I came back I had a lot to catch up on, but I wasn't in the mood to study. Mentally, I wasn't in a good place. I wasn't feeling like my usual self. I drowned in a pit of darkness and sadness because of what my vision had become, some past trauma inside of me that made me feel insecure even around my friends and that created tension between me and them to a certain degree. So I wasn't in a good place for a good chunk of the year.
Ahmad:Now school started in September 2016. I returned in October and the doctor told me that I had to come back in March so he could remove the silicon oil in my eye. So I was going to miss another month of school. So fast forward, my grades slipped dramatically. I barely passed the first semester. I could barely, I was barely able to study because I was barely able to see. The only thing or the only tool I had that aided me was my small digital magnifier, which was the size of an iPhone 5, or smaller even, and it took me. It was so difficult for me because I want you to imagine, it took me five to eight minutes just to read a single line. With that magnifier and with how my vision was and imagine, I had to study an entire curriculum to graduate from high school. So fast forward to March I had to return to the US.
Ahmad:The pressure, the stress and anxiety it all caught up to me. I was very mentally unwell at the moment. And when we were traveling to the US from Lebanon in March, we had a stop in Dubai. Before the plane landed I woke up and I wasn't feeling well. I was having a panic attack. I woke up my mother. I asked her if she could help me go to use the restroom. On our way I just fainted and collapsed right on the spot. My eyes, according to my mother, like rolled to the back of my head and I just collapsed. We they started giving me life support and everything turned out to be fine at the end, thank God. But I was hospitalized at the airport because I was too ill and I didn't make the next flight because they saw I wasn't fit to travel. But anyway, I saw my doctor. It turned out that I had scar tissues inside my eye that had grown and were blocking my vision. We did a surgery. He removed them. My vision greatly improved and I was able to see clearly, but not to the same extent that I used to see before glaucoma, but nevertheless it was a significant improvement from where I was. After the panic attack, I decided to accept the fact that and after, of course, the surgery, I decided to accept the fact that my vision may never go back to what it was, and I had to live with it. So I made a promise to myself to keep continuing no matter what, and I was ready to accept the challenge.
Ahmad:When I came back to Lebanon, which was at the time passing high school and surpassing everyone's expectations, I came back on the last day of school. Everybody on that day was partying. We even have a tradition in Lebanon where seniors, on their last day, rent fancy cars, have street parties to celebrate their completion of high school. I didn't participate in any of that. I stayed at home, planning and scheming. How am I going to catch up to everyone with my studies? We had before the official exams or government exams. We had school finals so, and they were coming up in two or three weeks and I had to study everything. So I sacrificed all of that just so I could focus on what was important at the time. I ended up studying from eight in the morning till four in the morning and I only got four hours of rest. That was very hard, as you can imagine, and it was like unthinkable, but I wanted to do it anyway.
Ahmad:Now fast forward to our graduation ceremony. Um, we were told that there were going to be a lot of surprises because, uh, it was different. That year we had the ceremony outside of school for the first time and they wanted to make things special. So, um, we uh, there was an award that was going to be given. It was the student of the year award. Now, when they said that, in my head I was like okay, they're definitely going to give it to the eggheads, like the top students with the top grades. I don't think I'll be getting that. So, funny enough, I just like, laid back on my chair, put my arms behind my head and closed my eyes for a quick nap and at the end, when they were going to announce the winner of the award, when they were going to announce the winner of the award, they announced my name.
Ahmad:I woke up. I was surprised and shocked, and so were my friends next to me. They were like did you know that? I said I swear to God I had no clue. I walked up to the stage to shake the principal's hand and receive the award from him and I received a standing ovation from everyone at the ceremony and it was very loud. It was very emotional for everyone because they got to see who I was, they got to learn my story to a certain degree and they understood the struggles I went through and what I was able to achieve. I was able to pass the school finals and what was touching about it was one of my best friends at the time. She gave the speech and she announced me to be the receiver yeah, there's something that you said earlier on about.
Stephen :You accepted that your vision was going to be like that the acceptance. How big a part does acceptance play in you that then says okay, this is what I have, this is what is what it what this, this is what I have. I am going to make the best I can with what I have. How big a role did that acceptance play? Was that acceptance the first step?
Ahmad:exactly it was the first step. It was the first step towards recovery and inner peace, me just starting to be at peace with myself and accepting who I am and what I have and promising myself that I wouldn't let it stop me from achieving and doing what I want. It even reminded me of myself. One time, when I was in first grade, a lot of the kids didn't like me. It had to do with them trying to bully me because of my visual impairment, but I always stood up to them. We had a PE class or a sports class. We agreed to play football, or soccer as they call it in the US. So two students would always pick their teammates. I was always picked last or second to last, but one time nobody picked me. I asked them why. They said you don't know how to play and you might not see where the ball's at, so we don't trust you and we don't think you're a good player. That hurt me at the time and I ran away crying, but I think it's been.
Ahmad:This resilience has been inside me ever since I was young. It's true, I was crying, but a few minutes later I put a smile on my face and I said that I don't care what they say about me. I know who I am and I know what I can do. And I was so obsessed with superheroes and fairy tales when I was a little kid I even believed that they were true to a certain degree. So I put a smile on my face, I looked at the sun and raised my fist and I said someday I'll earn the title of a legend, and that way everyone at school will know that I'm the strongest ever. That way, everybody will stop disrespecting me and giving me the respect I deserve. I'll show everybody that they've got a hero and fast forward to my graduation ceremony.
Stephen :That vision came true wonderful you, you went to university, uh in in lebanon, correct? And you, you studied uh translation. Is that? Is that correct as well?
Ahmad:yes, yes, that is correct.
Stephen :Arabic translation Arabic and English translation yes, and and you're now in in Deerfield in Michigan where you you you're running your own business as as a translator. Yes, correct.
Ahmad:Yes, uh, in Dearborn Michigan.
Stephen :Yeah um, yeah, sorry, dearborn, michigan, and is it? It's? Tell us something about that, and tell us something about how you've you've you've set that up and and what you're doing now. And what is your? What's your? Your dream for the future or your reality for the future? Because, from what I've heard of what I know a little bit about you, your dreams become your reality thank you, uh, yes.
Ahmad:So when I first came to the United States, um, I wanted to be more than just a translator. I was more interested in interpreting, which is translating spoken content. I used to do it a lot. When I used to visit doctors, I'd interpret for both my doctor and my parents. So when I went to vocational rehab here, we had a career counselor there and one of my goals was to become a certified health care interpreter in the US. And getting there wasn't easy, and even being recognized as a certified health care interpreter is a big deal here. So what I ended up doing was, after rehab, I enrolled in two medical interpreting courses. I started taking on some medical interpreting assignments to gain some experience, and then I applied to become a certified healthcare interpreter.
Ahmad:Now, getting that certification was a journey. It wasn't an easy task because I had to study a lot. I had to know many things about healthcare regulations and laws and I had to memorize hundreds of healthcare terminology in both Arabic and English. And it wasn't just memorizing their translation equivalent, but also understanding each term and knowing what it means. So I started taking on more medical interpreting assignments and I also got a full-time job at my current company Language Line Solutions, where I take on medical calls, insurance calls, insurance of all types like car insurance, health insurance and so on.
Ahmad:And recently I got promoted to start taking court calls and immigration calls detained at the border or people who have excuse me, people who are applying for asylum in the US or have an interview or an appearance sorry at an immigration court. And afterwards, when I started seeing the progress, I decided to start my own business, a Plus Translations. I wanted to grow this business little by step by step. I had, I have, a vision that it will hopefully one day be a prominent business and language industry, not just in the US but even worldwide. I'm building it piece by piece and I'm taking my time with it. I'm building it piece by piece and I'm taking my time with it.
Stephen :So how do you want to expand that worldwide? As you put that, Is it a case of getting people employing people to do that for you worldwide? Is there a special technique you use?
Ahmad:Tell us something a little bit about that, yes, so what I plan to do is sign independent contractors to my company. Those contractors can be anywhere in the world, but they have to be like qualified, or at least certified, translators and interpreters, of course, and I'm looking to find to attract clients worldwide. The world is so diverse nowadays that translation and interpretation are really taking off. There is a very, very high demand worldwide for these services and I want to take advantage of that. I know I have to do a lot of heavy lifting, especially now in the early stages of my business, but hopefully, with time and good effort, I'll be able to turn this small business into something global.
Stephen :I wish you all the best with that. When that happens, that will be wonderful. One final question that I want to ask you, and it's probably a strange question. You've talked about the resilience which you've certainly have and you've developed and strengthened because of your impairment by the loss, or as a result of the loss, of much of your sight. What have you gained? What is sharper in you, in your senses? Is it hearing? Is it your heart? Is it your? Do you see what I mean? What is what has is sharper in your senses? What's more acute now?
Ahmad:I think I think a lot of my, most of my senses are sharper now, especially my hearing. And if I want to say like in general, to answer the question, what have I gained? I'd say I gained a lot of things. It's not just that my senses sharpened, but I gained a better understanding of myself and who I am as a human being and what I want from life and what I'm capable of doing. Um, when you asked me like, did my for my senses? You asked me if I was able to see with my heart I, I think, or not.
Ahmad:I think it has to do also with my hearing. I could hear from a very far distance. I could memorize a lot of things that I hear. I have a crazy memory. But when it comes to my heart and when I associate it with my hearing, to my heart, and when I associated with my hearing, it got to a point with me now where I'm emotionally intelligent, I can hear.
Ahmad:When I'm listening to people and hearing them, I can empathize with them. I can understand their pain, their feelings and their struggles, and before it was me who was always talking about his struggles and his pain. Now I'm at a point where I can listen to others, empathize with them and even help them, and I even you might find this crazy too when I'm listening to someone. I can learn a lot about a person just by listening to their voice. I can tell a lot of characteristics and traits about that person just by listening to their voice and analyzing it. I can even tell if that person is telling the truth or if they're lying. I don't know how I do that, but I've never been wrong with this. Trust me, it's really fascinating. I don't know how to describe it in any other way.
Stephen :Yeah, I don't disbelieve that. I've long believed that the voice carries more than sound. It has got so much subtlety in it that we miss because we have the other senses. Ahmad, it's been a privilege talking to you, I've loved talking to you and thank you very much for sharing the story and I look forward to hearing lots of good things and the success of your business and your continued success as a human being. Thank you very much.
Ahmad:Thank you. Thank you, stephen. I really appreciate the opportunity allowing me to appear on your podcast and sharing my story, and we will remain in touch, of course, and I wish you all the best.
Stephen :My guest today was Ahmad Jafil. Please don't forget to look up and support Waves to Home, who brought Ahmad to this dinner table. And, equally important, they help migrants across the world to tell their stories with pride. I'm Stephen Barton. This has been another episode of Migrant Odyssey, thank you.