Migrant Odyssey

All Good Stories Start with our Grandmothers

• stephen barden • Season 1 • Episode 16

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Stephen:

Hello and welcome to another episode of Migrant Odyssey. I'm Stephen Barden. Thank you, as ever, for your support. This podcast enables people to tell and remember their stories the stories they've inherited, those they experience now and those that help them create their future. So what is a story? What is one's life story? That's something I've been thinking about a lot in the last few weeks. And what's the difference between telling one's story, one's own story, and propagandizing? After all, they both involve crafting a narrative. They're both an attempt at creating a coherent chronicle of one's history. Here's the difference. Propaganda is a monologue. Personal life stories have to be a dialogue. Propaganda from the Latin propagare.

Stephen:

To propagate is, according to Merriam-Webster, the spreading of ideas, information or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause or a person. It's pushing out a narrative, true or false, most often a combination of both. To do what? To exclusively help or injure one policy, institution, person, ideology and so on. It's a narrative that has little or no sympathy for any other players. The image that it evokes for me is diverting a river to irrigate my farm, even though I know it'll leave yours without water, and then persuading you that drought is very good for you. Propaganda is a monologue to promote, disseminate, propagate singular interests over others.

Stephen:

Storytelling, personal and communal, even mythology, is a dialogue. It can be nothing less. In order for me to tell my story, I have to tell it to myself first, and in order to do that, I have to acknowledge that I am not in a vacuum, that there are people and places that I encounter and who influence me all the time. We create our own story not just from our own direct path, but also from those of our parents and grandparents, where we came from, who were the people who loved us or didn't, who were the rogues and heroes in our own families, neighborhoods and communities. We are not just what we think of as our own direct experiences. We are also the feelings, emotions and thoughts that our people, those in our community, our family, our colleagues, our competitors and rivals, even those feelings and emotions that they evoke in us when they tell us their experiences and their stories. Like it or not, however free or independent we think we are, what we absorb from those around us is woven into the way we view the world and ourselves. We are in constant dialogue with our world.

Stephen:

In telling our story only to ourselves, we may, of course border on propagandizing, crafting ourselves as victims or victors. But in telling our story to our communities, to those with a sympathetic, dare I say, loving ear, the less we feel we have to why would I need to defend myself against a loving listener? And in asking our community to contribute their own stories, or indeed to contribute to our stories, we are confirmed as valued, cherished human beings. We belong. If you can see how important this is to you, if you are in a settled, secure society, think how important it is to those who have been displaced, uprooted, unwanted and dehumanized to be affirmed as valued and beloved.

Stephen:

My guest today is Shams. She is one of the founders of Waves to Home, a movement that knows the healing that lies in creating communities, no longer in the town, country, culture or language from which people have been torn, but linking them globally. Have been torn but linking them globally. And while you hear her tell her story, have a listen to how much emphasis she places on the people around her, her family, her friends and her colleagues, her community. Shams, welcome to the program. Thank you for being here, delighted to talk to you.

Shams:

Thank you for inviting me.

Shams:

Happy to be here. Of course

Stephen:

You were born in Amman Jordan, a third generation Palestinian.

Stephen:

Tell me who was the first of your family to come to Jordan and under what circumstances?

Shams:

For sure, I think I always start my story like this. I always say, like all good stories, mine starts with a displaced grandmother. So she was the first one to be here. She comes from a small village in Jaffa and she was displaced to a couple of countries before she reached Jordan. So first she was displaced to a couple of countries before she reached Jordan. So first she was displaced internally within Palestine and then she was displaced to Syria in a refugee camp and finally she ended up in Jordan. This is my first grandma. My second grandma came actually in the 50s, because we had the unity of both sides in the 50s and my grandpa used to have a little shop here in Amman, so they would come over all the time and then when the Naksa happened they did not allow refugees to go back. So both grandmas were displaced under different circumstances, the first one in the Nakba in 1948 and the second one in the Naksa.

Stephen:

So grandma, your first grandma, was from your mother's side, father's side.

Shams:

The first one is from my dad's side. She's from what is now occupied Palestine in 1948. . And my second grandma is from the West Bank.

Shams:

She's from a small village called Zeta, near Nablus.

Stephen:

And

Stephen:

are they both still with you?

Shams:

No, I only have one left at the moment. She is 91.

Shams:

And yeah, she's doing great so far and I love her. I love her a lot.

Stephen:

So, what was your first memory? This is going to be one of those podcasts that doesn't go linear, you, as you, probably gathered. So what was your first memory as a child in Jordan?

Shams:

I lived a pretty happy childhood, I would say, and I think the first memory that always comes up is playing in the snow. In Jordan, it snows like maybe once a year, so we take snow very seriously, we prepare ourselves, we have like people from all ages playing in the snow, making snow, women and snowmen, and I remember like maybe this was in 2005, so I was maybe six, and we lived in this place called Jabal al-Akhdar, which if you translate it literally it's the green mountain, so my, my house was on like this slope and I remember it snowed heavily, that we like we didn't go to school on that day, of course, and I sat on this tray or I don't know some like big plate where you serve food and we would go down the slope. And, yeah, I just remember this day and it makes me feel very happy and very connected to my family and my environment. So maybe that's like one of the first memories that I always think of when I want to go to my happy place.

Stephen:

Tell me something about your family. You've told me about the circumstances that your grandparents came, so you are the third generation Was your father and your mother were born in Jordan, is that right?

Shams:

That is true. Both my parents were born in Jordan. My mom writes children's fiction, so I grew up around a lot of books, a lot of stories. Language was super important and in my house and that's how I got into like reading and now I also work with stories. So it's very it's very predictable, but I love it. My dad sells food products.

Shams:

He's a workaholic but we love him still. (What do you mean? but you love him? And you love him) because he's a workaholic, not, but Because I think like it's difficult. It's difficult when you have, like, parents who, like, are workaholics, because you really want to spend more time with them and you want to build this connection. Uh, it's not easy and that's why I say but I love them a lot.

Stephen:

You'll find that that, uh, most people who are, who are migrants of any kind, will be working very hard to make sure that their children are, um, are safe and looked after, and and, uh, what have you? So you're a family, as, as you told me, that loves language and books. Tell me how, how is that love manifested in in your life?

Shams:

I think the first thing is, uh, my, my connection to palestine definitely comes from stories. So my relationship with my grandma is very tight, uh, and through her like narratives, through her jokes, through her stories about, about Palestine I got to build this deep connection. So I think maybe that's the first thing, and I don't know. I think for me, just listening to her talk about Palestine, the way she still remembers all of the poetry that her dad taught her, she remembers everything that she learned when she went to school, I think maybe, yeah, that's the first thing I always talk about is stories and how that connects me with with Palestine, because we're not allowed to go back really. So narratives and stories are the way in which the, the older generation, our elders, transform all of this oral knowledge to us. And I would say also my mother, because she writes stories as well, is definitely an influence in my life. I take a lot from her and I find a lot of strength in keeping this story alive.

Stephen:

So what was the story that is closest to your heart, that your grandmother told you, because she seems to me to be the crucible of your, of the stories, she's the one from whom the story, the source of those stories.

Shams:

I think maybe this like I have two stories that I love a lot and they're both very funny, because I don't think all stories need to be like super I don't know emotional or deep. But my grandma told me two stories, basically. The first one is when she was about 10, she saved up enough money to buy a cow and she had a cousin and he would go around every night and he would hide her cow in a place and she would wake up the next morning and she would panic, basically, and try to find this cow. I don't know, it's just because they're kids, you know, and they play around and this is what they do to annoy each other.

Shams:

The second story is during Eid, so after Ramadan, her dad took her to the city, like a really big city, and this was her first time actually like leaving the small village. And he took her and he bought her some shoes and she thought the shoes were beautiful. So she kept the shoes on her dresser and she just kept looking at them for months and she never wore them, because when the time was right she's like okay, now I'm ready to wear them. They were too small for her and I don't know. I think these like little things that you know, she's my grandmother, I look up to her, I think she's incredibly smart and and, like, well articulated, but at the same time she's also just a girl, you know? Uh, so I really I just appreciate all of of these little things that she tells me. She lets me into her small world, I guess.

Stephen:

And tell me a story of you that is closest to your heart.

Shams:

In Palestine?

Stephen:

yeah, whatever story that you're taking forward.?

Stephen:

yeah, whatever story that you're taking forward-of shams... shams.

Shams:

In palestine, I would say, uh, because I want. I mean, we're still talking about palestine um, as palestinians, we cannot go back right. So we, if I wanted to visit my homeland, I would have to apply for an israeli visa. Uh, so I unfortunately did. In 2017, I applied for an Israeli visa. and I was accepted, and my family, they gave us like four days, that's it

Shams:

But I remember we went to Jerusalem and it was 3 am. We wanted to go and pray and it was my first time ever visiting this, the mosque, and I think that's my favorite memory because it was quite like calm. I generally don't feel very like spiritual or I don't understand spirituality very well, but when I went, I felt very calm. I just felt like so still on the inside, and I remember this woman she was sleeping with her child in the mosque and they I mean, they felt so safe to just, you know, sleep in this space. There were birds, and I really wish that we can be free so people can experience this, this like sense of I don't know belonging and calmness that just overwhelms you in a in a way, and I think that's yeah. That just overwhelms you in a way, and I think that's yeah. That's definitely my favorite memory from Palestine.

Stephen:

Why did you say you don't feel very spiritual?

Stephen:

Isn't spirituality - part of that spirituality - the peace that you felt?

Shams:

But I didn't understand it. Before, before I went to Palestine, I didn't understand what really feeling peaceful was, um, that I think. That's why I said I don't really understand it, but that's. I think that's the only moment in my life where I felt like yeah, like uh, maybe maybe I can feel this like spiritual connection to a place, because I was very scared that I was going to go and I was going to feel nothing and maybe I'm like not Palestinian enough. You know, this is the fear. But I went and I did feel something and, yeah, I feel very lucky, I guess, to have experienced that.

Stephen:

So, third generation, you are a Jordanian citizen as well as being a Palestinian and yet and this strong feeling of being Palestinian remains, yes, is that mixed with the feeling of being displaced? Displaced is such a sanitized word, isn't it, for some people that have been uprooted and traumatized. Tell me something about feeling Palestinian in a place in which you were born and your parents were born.

Shams:

Yeah, well, maybe we can begin with this concept of nation state, because I think it's quite unnatural to and it's very colonial also to divide ourselves into Jordanians, palestinians, syrians, lebanese, I think. As a child, I just saw myself as Arab, as Palestinian, as Jordanian. I didn't really differentiate between the two. It was only when I had to introduce myself to the outside world, I guess, that I felt this like oh okay, I don't know where to start, this feeling that I don't know where to start this, this feeling that I don't know where to start from, really, because I have a lot of different identities and I mean, yeah, people have complex identities. This is the real world that we live in. So I maybe one of the first times where I realized that I was displaced was definitely like my parents and my grandma telling me about Palestine and realizing that this place is close but you can't really go there. And I was like but Jerusalem is like two hours away and the south of Jordan, aqaba, is like four hours away, so why can't we go? And I really did not understand this concept of occupation and I was very like very, very frustrated.

Shams:

Another instance, I guess in Jordan, was like I was maybe in third grade and this kid comes up and he's like, he asks me. He's like are you Jordanian, jordanian or are you, I don't know? Like, yeah, he said something along those lines like are you Jordanian, jordanian or are you, I don't know if? Like yeah, he said something along those lines are you Jordanian, jordanian? And at the time I didn't really know what that meant. So I went home and I was like, and I asked my parents like what does that mean? Like, are you Jordanian, Jordanian? Of course I'm Jordanian. Like I was born here. I didn't understand, like those are two separate things, and I didn't know that. This is like the moment where I'm going to have to differentiate, I guess, between home and homeland, or those are like two separate things. But yeah, I mean I didn't grow up in a refugee camp, for example. My dad did, but I didn't. So I can't really like my, my experience is very different from his, for example.

Shams:

Um, and then when I, when I, when I finished, uh, high school and I had to apply for universities, my dad was like why don't you apply for this one? And it's called the UNRWA University? And I was like what is that? He's like this is basically a university for refugees, so if you have the UNRWA card you can apply and if you get a scholarship you can study for free.

Shams:

Of course, I applied for other places, but I was intrigued because I was like okay, this is a place where every single person is displaced or comes from a displaced background. They're all Palestinians. So I was quite interested and I think that definitely shaped my experience and definitely humbled me in a sense, because I was meeting people from all over Jordan, Palestinians who were displaced, who grew up in refugee camps or grew up in different cities than I did. And I learned so much during those three and a half years and I still go back to those years and I take a lot from from that community and I feel quite connected to them

Stephen:

What did you, what was the core of the your learning at the time of of that community?

Shams:

I think two. I think two main things, um, the first one is I learned about my own privilege. So I was like, okay, I am a refugee, I am displaced, but I do have privileges over other refugees. For example, I learned English quite young so I can present myself to the world, I can apply for scholarships. Then I also didn't grow up in a refugee camp, so I learned a lot about myself and about my family. And the second thing is definitely the importance of the right of return, and I think this is something that a lot of Palestinians talk about, because when you get displaced, you really have no other way of like economic mobility other than your own education, you know. So I started volunteering in refugee camps, I started teaching English and I started working on my own projects with refugees, because I understood that I need to pass on whatever knowledge I have, but also to learn from them and translate that knowledge and transfer it to the outside community.

Shams:

So, yeah, I think during those years I read quite a lot on Palestinian history. I made friendships and connections, and's what I. What I carry with me is that you don't go from your privileged place like I didn't grow up rich, but I am privileged in the sense that I didn't grow up in a refugee camp, for example. Uh, you go in and you try to understand as much as possible and you work with people. You don't really you don't tell them what to do. You learn from them and you build something together and that's how we that's how we, as Palestinians, we can grow and we can move from one place to another is through community. Community is the most important thing that Palestinians can build together and I think we are definitely good at that. We. We are actually one of the more, like one of the most resilient, I guess, people. Uh, we can build communities wherever we go yeah, yeah,

Stephen:

Interesting. All my Palestinian guests on this podcast without exception. Despite their own traumas, work with other displaced, uprooted people, people who are discriminated against, Palestinian or not, they seem to see the world far more holistically. Is that cause they know about the strength of community and building larger communities, or am I missing something?

Shams:

Maybe I can answer you by telling you a short story.

Shams:

(Love stories).

Shams:

Me too. Last year I was working with this group of displaced Palestinians. They came from Gaza and all of these kids had cancer. So Jordan basically moved them from Gaza to Amman and I was privileged enough to actually get to meet these kids and work with them and get to know their families and get to know their stories. And these kids went through unimaginable hell, like I'm talking about four-year-olds, five-year-olds who have cancer, who survived genocide. This is the kind of trauma that we're talking about. So, yeah, I met their families and this group of kids. They're staying at this hotel in Amman and they're staying at the same floor. So you walk in and you see kids playing on their scooters, you see the moms talking, the dads talking. Everybody is together and they all know each other. They are all trying to support each other with whatever they have.

Shams:

Um, and I don't know, I think I was feeling very, very depressed and very tired of um, of the situation, of the genocide, but I think when I met these kids and I met their parents, I was like, if they're able to rebuild their lives and sustain this community, uh, then I should be able to do the same, like these people went through immense trauma and yet they are still able to laugh and tell stories and have food together.

Shams:

Um, and it's not like, it's not a romantic response, I don't think. I think it's just what you have to do to to be there for your family, like it is the only option that they have, I think, other than giving up, and that is absolutely not an option for any Palestinian. So, yeah, I take a lot of inspiration, especially from the people of Gaza. They're not superheroes, they're not, you know. They're human beings at the end of the day and they break down and whatnot. But, yeah, the fact that they are still able to remain as Palestinian as they can be, to stay together and to be in community is something that I really look up to, and I think the entire world learns from them as well.

Stephen:

And these were people who had come out of Gaza recently and had survived the bombings and the shootings and the atrocities and everything like that. Is that correct?

Shams:

Yeah, basically in the first two or three months of the genocide they were contacted, I think, by an American agency who facilitated their basically displacement from Gaza to Amman, and they had to go through flying checkpoints, they had to go through Israeli snipers all the way to Rafah, so from the north of Gaza to the south under the fires of the Israelis, and these are not just like regular people You're talking about. Let's say, there were two sisters who both they both have cancer, for example, and they were there with their grandfather because their parents were killed. So usually they're accompanied by one adult, like one of their grownups, and it's usually not even their mom or dad, because they lost their parents in the genocide. And yeah, you can imagine the rest.

Shams:

I feel like I don't even have to say anything because your brain will just fill up this ugly image. But yeah, I mean, now they're in Jordan and they're in school, they're learning, they're trying to go back to this, I guess, sense of normality, but I don't think they will, unfortunately. All of them told me that they want to go back. Actually, and this is something that surprises a lot of people, but it doesn't surprise me at all, because if you've been to Gaza you know that Gaza is really heaven on earth and they want to go back to Gaza and they want to go back to their community and I'm hopeful that they will inshallah.

Shams:

Inshallah, inshallah.

Shams:

Inshallah.

Stephen:

And I've got to go back to the question I was going to ask you at one stage, which was so when you went to Jerusalem the long time before in our, in our conversation here. Um, did you then went back to your, your father's, ancestral village? Is that right?

Shams:

that is true, yeah

Stephen:

What what - tell me something about that, if that's not too much of an invasion.

Shams:

Yeah, so we went to his village. Actually, maybe I can start from that morning my dad was quite nervous he really does not like to put us in danger Like he was just nervous to go back but we took I think we took a bus and then a train, or a train and then a bus, and we reached Jaffa and I saw the sea for the first time in my life. I mean, we hear songs about the sea in Palestine, but I don't know the first time you see it. You just feel so much. But yeah, we went to his village. His village is called Beidajan. It's named after a god, like a Canaanite god. He is the god of wheat and storms.

Shams:

I love Palestinian mythology, so, of course, uh, yeah, I'm interested in that um, but uh, yeah, he, he started uh, crying actually, and it was the first time that I've ever seen my dad cry. I think that experience definitely brought us closer together. We got, because we, we got to experience this place. So my, my grandfather, so his dad, um used to have like six orange groves. Of course, we lost it after they left.

Shams:

Um, the, the village, we only knew it through like pictures and maps, and it looked very, very different and quite empty.

Shams:

Honestly, um, it's a very, it's a very strange feeling when you go to, you know, quote unquote israel, because you know for a fact that this parking lot that you're standing on used to be somebody's house, like you know that these trees you know there are. It's very surreal because you know that the bodies of our ancestors are buried somewhere in this, like under this mall or under this parking lot, and you just feel like you want to take your skin off. At least, that's what I felt like. You feel like, okay, this is my home, but it's also not at the same time, because they changed a lot of the architecture of the place. It does not look the same like Jaffa does not look the same, unless you go to one of the Arab neighborhoods, then you will see like the streets are the same because they're underdeveloped and they don't pay any money to fix what do you call them? The holes in the ground.

Stephen:

Yeah, the potholes yeah.

Shams:

With sewerage. Exactly the potholes. Now I'm forgetting my english, but yeah, like they don't even change those. So you will see potholes that are like 120 years old, for example

Stephen:

Historic

Shams:

, historic, that's a, that's the preserved.

Shams:

Exactly, exactly, it's a very strange feeling. It's very mixed, um, but I'm glad, I'm glad I went and I got to see his village and I got to see the sea, um, but uh, yeah, it's just, you feel very, I feel very angry that we are not allowed to go back.

Stephen:

So you tried to go back again as well, didn't you? I mean, you applied again, and that was refused, correct?

Shams:

Yeah, we applied I think four or five different times after that, after 2017. And we got rejected. Of course, they don't give you a reason, but even the first time when we went, it wasn't like a smooth experience. You know, at the, the border, they questioned us for six hours. It's not like okay, you know, welcome to no, it's not like that. Uh, and they, yeah, they ask you who is this person? Who is that person? Uh, like I don't know, like my seventh grandpa, like they're like who is this person? Uh, so, yeah, person. So yeah, it's not a pleasant experience and I don't know.

Shams:

You read about the occupation, you watch it in the news, but you go there and it's a completely different experience. You feel it in your body, I don't know. You see, like 16, 17, 18 year old kids with huge guns, and they're all from like Ukraine. 17, 18-year-old kids with huge guns, and they're all from like Ukraine, Ethiopia, Iraq. Yeah, you just start questioning your entire life, like, yes, you know that this is how the occupation functions, because it's a settler colony and they have to replace the native population, of course, but, yeah, you just feel very angry. I wasn't scared, but I did feel quite angry and anxious.

Stephen:

Another first for you, because you said it was the first time you went back. Another first for you quite recently was going outside Jordan, correct to the rest of Europe. Can you tell me something about that, because that also gives me a window into the work that you're doing and how you keep yourself, you occupy yourself and you focus yourself.

Shams:

Yeah, the first time I went to Europe was, well, the eu or europe, actually, because those are two separate things. Now, uh, the first time I went to europe, the continent, was when I went to manchester in 2020 (oh, that's not Europe) you know it's a. It's a different, it's a different visa that we have to apply for. That's why I'm putting them into separate categories. You know Well, I can, I can talk about that and then you can talk about the EU.

Stephen:

I'm joking and then I'm joking taking you off track as well.

Shams:

You're good. So I applied for this conference called One Young World and I got accepted because I was working on this project that is related to translation and because I want the project, you know, is about creating content in Arabic for Arab researchers because I'm interested in like language, accessibility and so on. So I got in and in this conference, I met Zoya, who introduced herself as Palestinian, ukrainian refugee in Lebanon and, of course, as soon as she said that, like fireworks were going off in my head because I was like, oh my god, this story brings up all of the all of the contradictions in this system and I want to document this and I want to talk about it. And, of course, I introduced myself. I'm also a Palestinian, I'm Jordanian and, yeah, we had this conversation about what it means to be displaced, and then we started inviting more people and it was like 10 or 11 Palestinians all displaced in different countries now and, yeah, that night was very, I would say, magical, because I don't know we were.

Shams:

It was very organic obviously because, um, we all somehow ended up ended up in this place, um, and yeah, you get to see like this, like this uh invisible thread, that uh, you can see it in all of the, the Palestinians around you. So, yeah, it was. It was an incredible night and we we really wanted to recreate this feeling of belonging, of feeling safe enough to share your story with other people, to be in community with them, and that's how the story for Waves to Home, that's how Waves to Home was born, basically.

Stephen:

And Waves to Home. Of course, we're in very close partnership with this in this podcast, because I think certainly most of my, if not all of my, recent guests have come from Waves to Home and we will continue to do that. So it's a, and that is is is a wonderful platform for for telling the stories and and learning how to tell your story in the most effective way, to take it forward and to respect other people's stories. It's, it's, it's a, it's a wonderful, wonderful platform.

Shams:

Exactly so. It's a global storytelling movement that is dedicated for refugee stories, displaced people stories. Yeah, we're trying to really bridge the gap between different communities.

Stephen:

And it's global isn't it?

Shams:

And it's global. Yeah, we have people all over in the Levant, in Europe, in South America. It's great. I love being part of this community. It makes me feel very connected and it gives me really a reason to wake up in the morning.

Stephen:

Where do you see yourself? What is your thread? Where do you see yourself now, focusing, dedicating yourself, if you like, or is that too wide a question? What is your direction?

Shams:

it is a wide question , so maybe I will give you a wide answer. Like I can start big and then then, yeah, go small. Uh, I would say the. The biggest goal of my life is to work for liberation, and I mean real liberation, material liberation where Palestinians can be free, they can live on their ancestral land, they can live in peace. Um, the smaller goals that I'm doing to to reach this liberation goal is well, I do what I can right at the moment. I am an interpreter, slash translator, so I work a lot with language, I document stories, I write um and I also um I'm interested in. I am interested in history and politics. So I'm also part of different youth groups and different youth spaces, so I try to educate and I try to fill in the gaps that people have. So I love questions.

Stephen:

What do you mean by filling the gaps?

Shams:

To fill in the gaps. Whenever I travel, for example, people ask me a lot of different questions and I think questions are a great indicator into A people's background and B the gaps that they have in their knowledge. Because usually people are affected by the media that they see or their environment, their own backgrounds, their own biases. So I love listening to people's questions and then trying to fill in whatever gaps I can fill. And then maybe that's a good segue into my second time being in Europe. I went to this genocide prevention seminar in Rome.

Stephen:

That's Europe, that's definitely Europe.

Shams:

That's definitely Europe. I think it was a great introduction to Europe. Honestly, I feel very lucky to have gone there. Italians love Palestine. You see the Palestinian flag on every house and for me, this will never be normal. I don't take this for granted. It's very.

Shams:

It affects me deeply to see that people are choosing to, to, to stand with palestine in this, in this like visible way. Um, but, yeah, um, this was the first group that I started working with. They're called "Noo Mwar war and are an anti-militarist group within europe. Uh, so they talk a lot about genocide, about colonialism, not just in Palestine, but also in Sudan and Congo and so on. And, yeah, this was my introduction and then the rest is history. Basically because now I'm like one of the trainers working with them in like nonformal education. We try to create spaces for young people to be more politically active, to actually have knowledge that comes from the global South. And, yeah, we try to create safe spaces where people can learn about politics and also engage with people from the global South and Europe and to build this bridge.

Shams:

I guess.. I come off maybe as annoying sometimes, because I want people to really put in the time and effort If they care about, let's say, palestine, for example. I really want them to understand why Palestine is connected to everything else, so it's not like an isolated incident that we have this occupation right. So I try to challenge people to think of Palestine as just one piece of this puzzle. So I connect Palestine to environmentalism. I also connect it to I don't know feminism, to women's issues, to native rights, to extractivism around the world, and it's not difficult to do, like, for example, I remember I did this session on extractivism, for example, and I was talking about this small community in La Guajira in Colombia, and this is a native community in Colombia that is currently being displaced.

Shams:

So big oil companies can extract, you know, like oil and timber and coal, and then this coal is being used by Israel to manufacture weapons to kill, uh, native people in Palestine, in Gaza, and, of course, like, uh, it's it's. I think it's not difficult, because the our reality is is that all of this is connected and we need to really, I guess, find a way to get people who are very, very far away from Palestine to care about Palestine. And the way you do this is that you get them to care about themselves and to care about their own communities, their own native people right. I think this is the easiest and simplest way to do this.

Stephen:

You create these connections, is the hope in the connections? Where is the hope for the liberation of Palestine? Where do you see the hope?

Shams:

Um, that's a very difficult question, because it's not always easy for me to see the hope, but you have to do the work regardless. Like you know what? Uh, what what Gramsci? Um, he says pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will, and this is something that I live by, you know. I see, I really see a lot of hope in everyone, not just young people, because I also work with people who are older and I learned quite a lot from them. But, yeah, I see people. I see hope in people who want to do material change. I see hope in people who really want to take action and they want to like they're not scared to lose something for Palestine, because if you are, then you are just, you know, liberal. I guess you say that you love Palestine and that you want to fight for Palestine, but you don't want to lose any of the colonial privileges, for example, that you have.

Shams:

So, yeah, I see hope in people that actually want things to change and who are actively working to to do that

Stephen:

It's an interesting point and we won't I won't dwell too much on it, but it's an interesting point is to make this you know, they the fear of losing something. What? What does a person in norway or britain or america lose if they actively support Palestine and call out the genocide that's going on? What do they lose? What do they fear? Why is there so much fear? Because that's what it is, isn't it? It's a form of fear that they turn a blind eye. What is it, do you think?

Shams:

I think in the, in the west, there's this perception that there is this, uh, civilized world, and then there's the barbarians, and europe is kept in, you know, like fortress europe. They they're kept in this place, far away from all of the troubles that they have caused in the first place, but because of the media and because of now, there's this how do you say it? Like there's this fear that if you out yourself as pro-Palestinian, then you are immediately labeled as anti-Semitic, for example.

Shams:

This is one of the fears that a lot of Westerners have, and they're scared of being labeled as that and then losing, maybe, like, actually their jobs, or if they're an academic, they could lose their tenure or their position at uni. If they're students, they could be deported. This is not something that you know. I also. I don't take this lightly, of course, but I always say power in numbers. If there's one or two of you on you on campus, yeah, you might get in trouble, but if you organize with others and you are in community with them, then it becomes much, much more difficult for people to to stop, uh, your movement.

Stephen:

Shams, what we've, what we've neglected, of course, is the, is the detail of your, of your, the work that brings you your, your living. So can you tell me something about that?

Shams:

yeah for sure. Um, so I work as an interpreter slash translator, so most of my work is related to language accessibility and I always bring that with me to all of the spaces that I work in. So I'm always paying attention to the language that is being used, but also how accessible my language is. I get bored very easily. So I think being an interpreter is a great profession because it always keeps me on my feet. I'm always learning, I'm always doing research. I have to prepare quite a lot before sessions. I think it's also a good... um, I don't know if coping mechanism, is the right word but whenever I am interpreting for Palestinians,

Shams:

I am mostly focusing on the language itself, because my loyalty lies with the speaker.

Shams:

I want to be able to portray this message as accurately as possible, so it kind of acts as a barrier between me and what is being said. Of course, I understand exactly what is being said, but I'm not really processing, uh, processing it so, yeah, like, for example, with no more war, we we brought uh my friend Barak, who is Palestinian, and he was talking about his life, uh, in the West Bank and the way he deals with settlers that attack him every other day, and it's very difficult to hear his story. But I think, because I'm an interpreter, I can put this this wall, I guess, at least for the moment, for the, for the, for the moment where I'm interpreting, I can, I can put this distance between me and the story and I can interpret uh, but of course after that I can deal with the, with the consequences. But I think it's a very interesting uh profession and I and I'm really happy that I I chose to do this I love being like someone's eyes and ears. It's a very big responsibility that I take very seriously.

Stephen:

And, of course, what you're doing is you're literally acting as a mouthpiece, aren't you? You're saying you're interpreting what comes out of that person's mouth, but not only what comes out of that person's mouth, but what comes out of that person's heart and mind. So sometimes, when you're interpreting, how do you interpret the emotion that comes out of that person, or is that simply translated as language?

Shams:

Oh wow, that's such a difficult question because I think something is... as cliche as it sounds, something is always lost in translation, but I try to like. This is also something technical because when I first started interpreting, I was very monotone and I had to practice a lot and I had to mimic people and shadow people so I can actually use different tones and so on. I think it's different for every story and for every person. Like when I'm interpreting for a Palestinian and they're telling their story, I could get emotional sometimes, but I try to keep you know, the same tone as the speaker. Um, it is different from every person to to the other, but I really try to use accurate language. I try to convey it through tone and through my facial expressions. For me this does not come naturally. I had to actually learn how to shadow people and so on.

Stephen:

Shams, thank you very much. That was lovely and I wish you all the best always, and I won't keep you away from the end of your days fast. Bless you.

Shams:

Thank you so much, thank you so much, thank you so much Stephen.