E118: Journalist Trauma Support Network

CORRECTION: Emily Sachs states the Dart Center was founded in 1994, but it was founded in 1999.

Journalists often report on the worst moments of others' lives, but who supports them? In this episode, Emily Sachs, clinical psychologist and director of the Journalist Trauma Support Network (a project of the Dart Center at Columbia Journalism School), unpacks the unseen toll journalism can take. We explore how trauma manifests in the newsroom, what makes journalists uniquely vulnerable and how JTSN is training therapists to meet these challenges with industry-specific insight. Sachs also shares actionable ways journalists can protect their mental health and reclaim joy in their work before burnout becomes a breaking point.

Resources can be found at JTSN.org.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Emily Sachs and The Dart Center
• 3:06 Understanding Trauma in journalism
• 9:50 The compounding crisis: burnout, harassment & industry instability
• 18:28 What the network does for journalists
• 33:06 Actionable takeaways

Transcript

0:01

Welcome, today we're in the studio with Emily Sachs of the Journalist Trauma Support Network, which is a program of the Dart Center out of the Columbia Journalism School, which is a mouthful, but welcome, Emily. Thank you very much, Rebecca. It's really nice to be with you. Well, and I'm really fascinated by your program and the topic in general. So tell us tell us more about the journalism support trauma, journalism, trauma support network. Sorry, the JTSM uh and how it fits into the work of the DART center, because you've been working with them for a long time. You're a clinical psychologist. You've worked with a lot of trauma informed support. You've written curriculum. You've done a lot of things. So put it in context for us. Yeah, so the DART Center for Journalism and Trauma at the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism is a, it's really an education center and a think tank. They were formed in 1994 really to help educate the journalism field on covering trauma and doing it in a way that is ethical, that is excellent, that informs the public about trauma without. traumatizing the public. And so for decades, the Dart Center has been working with journalists, educating them, researching, have they have a research uh lab at the University of Oklahoma Tulsa, run by Dr. Alana Newman. So they've been kind of figuring out um how best journalists can cover trauma, and do their own psychological uh safety as well, uh while covering trauma. And I became involved as a co-trainer in psychosocial trainings for journalists at different newsrooms and associations to help journalists really know how to interview individuals who may have been traumatized, how to interact with the public around trauma, and also how to best prepare themselves to cover trauma and to deal with how this might affect them. So I was kind of a consultant collaborating with the DART Center, but we often got a request for therapy, which the Dart Center does not do. Specifically, journalists and newsrooms would ask, you know, where is the list of really trusted, excellent trauma therapists who also understand journalism occupational culture? uh Because as you and I know, it does have a distinct occupational culture, much like the military does, like police do, like other first responder groups do. But unfortunately, there was no such program to train clinicians on working with journalists or that occupational culture. And we didn't have that list of therefore that list of clinicians. So actually, there was a um gift from Google.org to support journalists psychosocial health. And the DART Center executive director Bruce Shapiro said to me, know, will you help us kind of think about how we could develop this list of clinicians that we can trust with trauma care? and that we can trust with journalists specifically understand their journalism occupational culture. So this became a project of the Dart Center to, it's a training and education program for clinicians. We train clinicians to work within the occupational culture of journalists. And then the JTSN is then a network of clinicians who have had this training and their services are open to journalists throughout the community in the US. Well, so, and I think that's such a uh service because, there's so much to unpack there in what you shared, but I kind of want to go back to the start because I think sometimes trauma is a word that's thrown around a lot. And so in journalism, course, uh journalists are reporting on everybody's worst day. It is like police or fire. uh fire personnel, you you're not going in, sometimes you're going in when it's rainbows and kittens, but often not. So tell us a little bit about trauma and uh how it sort of your definition of it, because I think also trauma is really normalized in journalism. You see all sorts of things every day that it just becomes sort of the normal course of business. So talk to me about what trauma is. Yeah, so there's a couple of main types of trauma and then things that are different from trauma, which we focus on with our network. So one, is the kind of big T trauma PTSD type incidents where, you know, you let's say you're a journalist who is used to covering crisis and traumatic events, and you do it really well, you have a great skill set in that, you know how to get what you need to do the work, but then something really terrible happens that breaks through your norms that breaks through your defenses, and suddenly, you're really impacted, and you can no longer work the way that you used to work. maybe your relationships are seriously impacted. uh You can't shake this kind of change that has happened to you and your life as a result of this. And there are many reasons that distressing, upsetting, horrifying events. can get to an individual where they might have been really resilient to lots of other kinds of terrible events. A lot of times that happens, that relates to things that happened in our own childhood and earlier life. But there's no right or wrong reason why a horrific event might be traumatic uh for you and other events might not have been. When it gets to you to the point that you can no longer do the things that make your life work, make your job work, that make you uh a good provider and family member and so forth, then you need care. And you may have PTSD, or you might have something that's not exactly a trauma disorder like PTSD, but it's really gotten to you and we help with that. Another really big type of trauma is secondary or vicarious trauma. And this is the sort of probably tied for number one reason that journalists come to our providers is just this accumulation of exposure to the suffering of other people through various types of work modalities. So maybe sitting there interviewing people who have lost a loved one to suicide, plus you've covered disasters, plus now people are just exposed to an incredible amount of graphic imagery and audio through the internet. There's a lot that's just sort of user generated. It hasn't gone through editing and just comes raw from all over the world. And journalists are tasked with going through that and finding what's relevant to the story. So after many years of kind of consuming this media in order to process it and deliver it to the public in a meaningful way, a lot of folks just have accumulation of secondary trauma. And what that often looks like is similar symptoms to Trauma that happens to a horrific event that happens to the self you might have uh a lot of sleep disruption unfamiliar feelings of anger uh fear and vigilance Feeling differently about the world's feeling like things have no meaning uh Having experiences where the thing that that bothered you just keeps coming back unbidden Mm-hmm. sort of cutting into your consciousness during the day. And again, when this gets to the point where you can no longer kind of make it work, um then you need treatment for that too. And that's another valid kind of trauma. Something else that's very common for us to work with is just an unusual um kind of perfect storm of stress coming from a lot of different sources for journalists. So one is just the changes in the industry and the job insecurity that that comes with. So, so much of local news has been shut down. There's huge corporate ownership. There's great job instability and a lot less access to on-site mentorship. know, folks who have been there for a long time and mentor younger journalists who come, which has been such an important part of the culture and the field for so long. COVID-19 led to, uh you know, things being done remotely, which can be hugely helpful. but you lose that newsroom camaraderie and support. um Because it's such a competitive industry with such job insecurity, there's a lot of financial stress and strain. And then people do have a lot of issues that can come up with burnout, conflict with management, conflict, moral conflict with the way that business as usual can be done in these corporate environments. And again, Really, these are really resilient professionals who know how to deal with a lot of stress, um who are good at it, but this can reach a level that is less workable and really make people feel like they are no longer up for the job and they really have to question whether they can continue in this way. And it can interact with other problems and other diagnoses. So I would say that this kind of general um industry stress, direct trauma, vicarious trauma, those are the big three. Now, there's one other major area which is relatively new in the United States, which is a sort of onslaught of online and offline harassment. Yeah. to ask you about that, because that has to contribute just that general feeling of being under attack. Definitely. Harassment goes going hand in hand with misinformation and disinformation. So I talked to a lot of journalists who, you know, on one hand, if they're attacked personally, online, they have sort of vicious, uncivil comments in their in their mentions, they can be very personally attacking, they are much more often women and minorities, people of color are targeted for these things. And They include the most awful and vile slurs, uh sexual uh slurs and uh threats, sexual and physical threats. So there's really foul stuff that people are dealing with. But sometimes what's just as disturbing is being told that they're reporting is a lie, um that they're reporting in bad faith and having misinformation and disinformation put alongside the information that they're trying to inform the public with. So these things also uh translate quite fluidly into, you know, quote unquote real life violence, uh where people can be doxxed online, their information can be published, and they get afraid for themselves and their families and other people who might be involved with uh them. Those cases are less common in terms of who has come to our network so far. We've only been around since, you know, 2021, and we've seen about 100 clients so far, but they are a very concerning and significant minority of the cases that we see. And we know that these instances are just multiplying all the time. Absolutely. So it strikes me that, you know, there's certain sort of a level of traumatic stress that just permeates the industry, but all these inputs kind of piling one on top of the other, uh it's filling journalists' cups and not in a good way. And so, you know, if you're always at the, you know, seven, eight full uh version of stress and vicarious trauma and so forth, one thing that may not have affected you previously can just push it. into a situation where the journalist is flailing. Am I getting that right? You are getting that right, Rebecca, definitely. And there's an additional way that I think about this. In our trainings, we do talk a lot about the hazards and the challenges of being a journalist, but we also talk a lot about the strengths and skills and resources that these folks bring and how the field kind of shapes that for them. because these are really resilient and strong professionals. And oftentimes what can counterbalance the stressors and the exposure to trauma are these strengths and skills. So things like craft joy, you know, there's more to journalism than just reporting out important things and trying to make impact. A lot of journalists also take real joy in the craft and figuring out the ethical dilemmas and in making those hard news judgments and uh in making beautiful pictures and writing beautiful text and getting it done right. um So that's something. The camaraderie, doing a good job together and pushing it through past the finish line and doing it with colleagues or editors that you respect is another protective factor. interacting with vulnerable communities and populations is incredibly meaningful to a lot of the journalists that we talked to. um Now, what often can kind of get in the way of those protective things um is those instances where people just don't have enough support, know, probably often institutional support. They don't necessarily feel that their institution has their back or they're having conflict. with management or the kind of requirements and quotas of the job don't necessarily reflect their core mission anymore. em If they don't have as much access to craft joy, to camaraderie, to the kind of meaningful stuff, or just someone that they can talk to about setting up some boundaries. and making some decisions about how I'm gonna cover this traumatic event, what angle am I gonna take, how am gonna protect myself, how can I negotiate that while still producing great news. If I can't have those conversations in an open and um a way where they feel trusted and respected, then those protective factors start to break down and the trauma that they otherwise could have, the trauma exposure that they were handling, m it's not worth it anymore. It becomes too much without those things to balance out the experience. lot of sense. It's a very idealistic industry in many respects. know, journalists want to uh pursue truth. They want to raise up voices and stories that are not being heard. They want to speak truth to power. There's all these wonderful impulses that get people into journalism. And then these instances of trauma sort of add up. And so it sounds like what you're saying is kind of connect back to maybe some of the reasons that one entered into the industry, like the love of creating a good story or a beautiful picture, crafting a narrative and relying and creating camaraderie with your fellow journalists or with someone out in the world. know, like it doesn't have to be what I think I'm hearing is that it doesn't have to be people in your newsroom necessarily, just these kind of force supports of craft, joy, camaraderie, interacting with vulnerable communities and creating boundaries and support. Those just need to be present in your life, not necessarily coming only from your job, but just in your life. Is that helpful? Yes, I think that that's really true and really helpful and a uh lot of what we work on with people. I don't want to give short-stripped to the impact of good leadership and management in news organizations because for better or for worse, the regard of your agency, of your bosses, and if you're freelance, the people that employ you from those agencies from time to time is really important still. you know, winning awards, being seen, being credited, and having your work published in a way that feels consistent with your values, those are deeply important. There's not always so much that us clinicians can do about that side of things. So what we can do is help people m really develop some assertive communication skills where they are doing appropriate negotiation with editors and managers, know, that respects their own rights and dignities, but also the rights and dignities of their employers and supervisors. uh But our journalist clients are the experts on what actually flies in their newsroom, right? And we're not going in there and negotiating for them. And we can't expect management to necessarily change. So you're right, there are some other ways to get, you know, this important um camaraderie. uh meaning positive regard from the community and from peers. uh Many people, if it's not within their newsroom that they can make these connections, it's with other journalists outside the newsroom because one of the great things about being digitally connected is you can find like-minded colleagues uh from many different spheres. uh As much as we wish that friends and family could always be that support, there's just sometimes a lot that is hard for them to understand about the work. And they may be also tired of, know, um of sort of having to try to understand or listen to kind of what goes on, m you know, in so many traumatic scenarios that journalists cover. I will say more often, our journalist clients are afraid to share any of that with friends and family, because they're more afraid of burdening their loved ones. And the loved ones actually would like to know. But there is a gap there in understanding and there is a fear of burdening loved ones. And oftentimes your colleagues just get it better. So finding colleagues outside your newsroom is sometimes really important. Finding mentorship outside the newsroom and other ways of finding recognition uh at different stages of your career is also helpful. And I wanted to get into sort of the unique nature of the journalist culture and some of the supports that you talked about, you know, um in some ways, and I don't want to dismiss what is and can be a very serious issue with the idea of like, well, you need better boundaries and you need self care and all that sort of thing. Talk to me about sort of what happens when those supports. um the unique culture of journalism in treating trauma when those supports are no longer enough. So it's because the sort of the adrenaline rush of breaking news or the newsroom culture of, well, you just work 24 hours and then you get up when there's another breaking story. It is always a go, go, go culture. And there's a certain know, in I can handle anything. So how do you, when you get to the point where you're at sort of a treatment level, how do you use both the aspects of newsroom culture to help break through and what makes that culture unique versus other trauma patients that you've worked with? Yeah, so I think a lot of the things that you're saying are exactly what we're educating our clinicians about. What are the em expectations of the job and how to learn more about that from your client, right? How to understand your medium and your beat and your role at your organization. Because if you're an investigative reporter researching something for a year, very different than daily breaking news where you have to get a source to talk to you right now. And those relationships are different. first of all, what to listen for to understand how that person's job works and how in their kind of calm moments, they would describe the expectations and necessities of the job. Really understanding that uh people may have to reshuffle and reschedule a little more than your average therapy user. uh One nice thing we've learned from researching our program is that the large majority of of journalists clients, though they will reschedule a little bit more will actually make it quite regularly to weekly virtual therapy, at least they tend to be very, very good clients. There is a minority that that just cancels so often that it's just not workable, but it's actually a small minority. And so we've been able to really have people in regular therapy. But our therapists also understand that that there may be more conflicts, there may be a little bit more rescheduling and not to immediately interpret that as resistance to therapy, right? So that's one thing that we talk about. Understanding the joys and the values and the ethical commitments and what that means for differences between, let's say their field and ours. So we actually have a lot of overlap, I think, in the idealism and the things that we're trying to address in terms of issues in the public, many of us psychologists and journalists, but boundaries are completely different. One of the first things we learn when we're trained is how to set very clear and quite very limiting boundaries. And that's not possible for a journalist who need to keep in touch with sources for years sometimes and at odd hours of the day. So once we're really familiar with that, with the values and ethics and Like I said, craft joy, know, for a lot of journalists, just the value of journalism in itself, um regardless of the impact that it makes. And um we can avoid the pitfalls that many clinicians um step right into. Like, why don't you leave? Why don't you just do less? Why don't you just set boundaries and light a candle and go on vacation? You know, these are the things that immediately turn people off and we're never going to say that. unless we think it's absolutely dire that you take a leave of absence, right? um So instead, work, um we talk to our trainees, you know, this is the first program to try to train clinicians in this occupational culture and to research our results. um So we're just going from what our private practices and our group training of journalists have taught us. We go with a harm reduction model. That's one of the ways that we um suggest our clinicians work, which is to say, okay, many people are just gonna keep reading their comments. They might have to for their job, right? Possibly they can get a buddy, professional or personal, to monitor that for them, but they're gonna interact with uh reader comments. How can we reduce the harm that's coming out of that if this is one of the triggers that's really bringing up an old trauma in a way that's not workable? right now. We getting rid of the black and white and we're going for the middle path with a lot of things and really enlisting that journalist to help us to collaborate on what is going to make this workable. um We are not talking about taking vacation and going to a spa. We're talking about little ways to pace the work, um to put up certain barriers to consuming more than you need to consume. to get the story, to stay on top of the developments in a quite granular way. We're taking, we're looking at the research uh and how you protect yourself from vicarious trauma. And we're talking to people about things like, we kind of use like a radiation metaphor for traumatic material that exposing yourself to a lot of traumatic uh audio visual material and interpersonal material is like a toxic substance. quite literally, mentally and emotionally. And so we have to have smart ways we have to have sort of basically PPE for that and ways to then disconnect from it and regenerate our own nervous system. So things like making sure that you do get some amount of rest and sleep and how to address insomnia and other sleep issues, even when you have to be on that, that breaking deadline cycle, how to understand what happens to your body and what happens to your executive thinking um under threat that keeps being activated even when you are physically safe. um And how to calm that system down and give it access um to more support and healthier inputs um even when you're not going to stop doing that work. How to assess what aspects of a situation are within your control. that you can problem solve for and what aspects of dealing with management or experiencing, witnessing a traumatic event you're never gonna be able to control for and therefore what can you do emotionally focused about that and who can support you with that. And another thing is just identifying your best supports and actually making those moves. So with journalists, we often find that they will go, they'll stop at nothing to protect a source. or to figure out the story or to get that word out there, but they might spend very little time on figuring out protections for themselves. It might just keep getting backburnered. And if we can kind of gently confront that and say, it's not gonna take a lot of time, but what are you doing about your own protective equipment? um And giving them a good metaphor for that where they can see that it's just not rational, it's not reasonable to go into a toxic environment with no preparation. and without a sort of during and after plan, then we can put a lot of skills on board and also have a relationship with them where they can get listened to too. Because that's the other thing is, you know, they're listening to stories, they're taking images, but who actually listens to them? When do they actually get a chance to process the information that's in their own head just by talking it through? It's very rare. And I love the idea of that sort of that physical barrier thinking of toxic environments is as like here is a real physical toxin that you need protective equipment to wade into and also just providing a little bit of distance and journalists are not very good at distancing themselves from the story or the passion because they're they're so active they do um So I think those are really interesting ways to to approach this I wanted to talk a little bit more about the network itself and how people can access care and kind of the mechanics of it and then uh maybe wind up with sort of the five takeaways before things become a crisis, what you would recommend people do. So tell us about the network. Yeah, our network now has 37 clinicians across the US. We're collectively licensed in I think 43 US states, uh because many of us have licenses in multiple states. And people, journalists can access that directly by going to JTSN.org. um Under four journalists, we have a therapist directory. Just click on your state and you'll get a bunch of profiles of our network that are currently practicing there. Only people who have been through our six month training program um are listed on this site. ah And so these are all people who we can vouch for their background excellence in trauma training and that they've completed our six month course in good standing. um So. you have to recruit therapists or are people kind of lining up knowing that news media can in some ways seem like they're in crisis? Are the clinicians interested in serving this population? Clinicians are, this was a pilot program in 2021 and so far we've trained two cohorts. We've just applied for funding to train two more cohorts and when we have around 100 clinicians, I'm gonna stop and kind of evaluate the impact on the country uh in terms of how well this set kind of serves the journalist population here. uh But having 37, so your question's a good one. uh I personally uh have taken care of most of recruitment. I reach out um very diffusely to get uh a really diverse set of applicants. um We don't advertise very widely though, so not many people know about the program yet. And I tend to have about 10 more applicants than I can take that actually get to like an interview stage. So really excellent candidates and take about 20 people. you know, out of 30, 35 great candidates each time. So it's really been a combination of me like really searching and hunting for those great trauma professionals. um And some people, you know, hearing about it through word of mouth and coming to me. We have people coming to us all the time when we don't have any money and we're not recruiting. So there's a long list now and I think people are learning about it. The people who sign up with us are immediately get um the value and are excited about it. They're so grateful. to journalists, they're so passionate about a free and independent press. And it's sort of a revelation. like, oh my God, of course they're exposed to so much trauma. And of course they don't have any dedicated services. And like, of course I want to do this. So there is that. The network, of course, is not part of the DART Center. These are a network of clinicians and private practice that have been trained by the DART Center's educational programming. they are in private practice and they charge whatever they charge. And so some of them have sliding scales, some of them work with insurance, accessing that financially is the same complicated morass that all therapy can be. And that's a really big problem in this country. uh like the idea of virtual therapy versus in-person is going to vary from state to state and who has reciprocity as well. That is correct. When we have a cohort of clinicians in training, we are able to provide free therapy to anywhere between, usually, I guess between 40 and 60 em journalists. m So at that time, therapy can be free for six months, which is great, and that's why we need to raise money for our trainings. em But while we don't have a training going on, the already trained clinicians uh have to charge. I always stay kind of informed about organizations like Committee to Protect Journalists, International Women's Media Foundation, and others that hold grants, grant money for therapy. and they disperse small grants for therapy. won't cover a year, but it can give you some time-limited therapy or offset the cost of therapy. They are pretty easy to apply to and the turnaround is quick. You do have to meet certain criteria in terms of having uh trauma exposure or severe stress through the course of your work as a journalist, but that's a resource. We also work with the ACOS uh Alliance. So a culture of safety is an alliance of many organizations, including newsrooms that are working to increase safety resources for journalists and news producers buy into that, trying to get news institutions to give more to offset the cost of therapy, since it has we have gotten to the point in the industry where it's actually necessary for people to continue to do their jobs and do the excellent work that they do. And as we wind up, I just wanted to get your takeaways. You've done a lot of research and you've done a lot of analysis on the cohort, the training cohort, but also I'm assuming outcomes from uh patients themselves where that's appropriate to hear. What takeaways are, how is this making a difference in journalists' lives? And if you can just briefly in our time remaining share. what journalists can do for themselves before it becomes a clinician issue. Yes, so starting with our outcomes, our outcomes are incredibly encouraging. I already said that journalists make use of this. have uh had no trouble filling our training slots and every all of our initial 65 training cases, all but one finished just about all of the sessions that were offered. So this is an incredible uptake level for any uh psychological service study, like pretty much unheard of. So what we see is that people are ready, they want it, they need it, and if it's accessible and affordable, they will absolutely take advantage of it. They will make the sessions, even though they have to sometimes reschedule, they'll go out of their way to make the sessions. Our clinical outcomes were... quite extraordinary as well. saw very significant reductions in PTSD symptoms, depression symptoms, symptoms of stress, suicidality, suicidal thoughts, and an increase in wellbeing in terms of the measures that we use. We also got incredible comments with many people saying, I've done therapy in the past, but this was completely different. You understood. my work environment, the challenges, and I was able to learn a really different way to approach my work. I've not been in therapy before. I was afraid to start. I didn't think they'd get it. This therapy saved my life. um I've uh other people saying I'm able to stay in the field longer because of it. So really everything that we hope to see is. is happening. I really, you we have a white paper that we're about to release detailing all of this. um Recommendations uh for journalists is, I think, number one, um having a realistic assessment of what's going on. If you feel like it's too much, if you feel like you can't work the way you used to work, if you feel like maybe you're losing it, um You are not alone. You're not wrong. It's a really hard time in the industry. It's the job instability, the threat and hatred coming in from the current and past presidential administration, m the doubt and criticism and harassment sometimes coming from the public, and the sheer volume. of distressing news to process em is really a lot. And um it's kind of unlike any other time in history. em If you feel that you need to make a change, you might be right. em And we need to work more on shame about that. If you feel like you wanna keep going and make smaller changes, you might be right and we need to start working on shame about that. uh This is another message I want to give people is that this is a collective endeavor. My boss, Bruce Shapiro, uh a veteran reporter, senior reporter, uh says that we don't know the impact of a piece of journalistic work often for generations because it can take time. to know what part of the record we need to go back to to establish something. So when it feels like you're having no impact, that's not, I kind of say to my clients, it's kind of none of your business. Your business is to do your part of the work, my business is to do my part of the work. My mental health advocacy, my treatment, you're not doing everyone's job, you're doing your job and your job is to create the record, right? um So not trying to be everything and save everything, not isolating. So we all need to curl up in a ball sometimes and block out the world. um We all, not all of us, people like me and journalists em really thrive on working and we can lean too heavily on that sometimes. We also have to connect because being alone in our heads is not a safe place when things get too toxic and overwhelming. You need other people for perspective, for encouragement, for feeling the experience of belonging, which humans need. And you need to go to the right people for that. So pay attention to who makes you feel like you belong, who makes you feel like you're sane, who makes you feel encouraged, and gravitate to those people. um Pick the right person for the job. If it's a past editor who you really trust, go to them for the professional stuff. If you need to just let loose and have fun, go to that friend who doesn't get it. That's okay, you don't have to talk about your work with that person. Go let loose a little bit and come back to it. Pleasure is very important principle. as well. We don't need to feel guilty about having pleasure. That is a really important form of resistance to oppressive forces that would like you to stop reporting and to stop thriving. We need rest, we need pleasure, we need connection, and that's how we can stay engaged. And then micro breaks, checking in, your body is there, uh it's your vehicle through this life, whether you think it's perfect or imperfect. and it has a lot of messages for you. So when it's telling you it needs something, listen to it. If you take care of your body, your body will take better care of you and let you do the things that you love to do. Those are just a few of the ways I think we can arm ourselves uh in our respective fields that have a lot in common. Those are six incredible takeaways. Just acknowledge the situation, change what you can about your environment, create your part of the record. And I think of that as like, mind your own business, stay in your lane. Don't worry about everything else out in the world and connecting with others and have your group. And you don't need to rely on one person for everything. think in an isolating world, we look at our partner or our dog or someone to be like, you're my everything. Yeah. have different people for different things. And keeping joy and pleasure centered as part of your life is a super important piece. And then really connecting in with your body. Your body is sending you messages all the time. So it's more than like, I'm here and I'm going to make this body do what I need it to do. But really it's a partnership that's sending up some flags and thinking in that physical way can be really helpful. um This has been such an extraordinary conversation. really appreciate your time and your energy and your willingness to put this program together and do the hard work of analysis and recruitment and training. uh So I thank you for that. And if people are interested either in becoming a clinician or seeking out uh services, it's just JTSN.org, correct? everything is on that site for both groups, clinicians and journalists. Please come see us there. Well, thank you so much for spending time with us. We'll have to have you back when you've reached that uh 100 clinicians so we can hear more about the efficacy of the work. So thanks so much, Emily. Thank you, Rebecca. This has been great.