Contracts for Live Event Artists with Paige Griffith

Cat of Cat Lauren Calligraphy and Alex of Signs of our Lives chat with Paige Griffith of The Legal Paige, contract lawyer and legal expert, about the importance of contracts for small business owners, particularly in the creative industry. Paiges emphasizes the need for clear, legally binding contracts to protect both the business and the client. The discussion covers when to implement contracts, how to modify them, and the role of AI in contract creation. Additionally, Paige shares resources available for entrepreneurs looking to enhance their legal knowledge and contract templates.

[  The Legal Paige’s 40% off Mid-Year Sale is running from 5/19-5/22 ]

Episode Links:

• Paige’s Contract Clause Checklist (free)
• Cat’s Affiliate Link to Paige’s Live Event Artist Contract - 
  use code CATLAUREN10 for an extra $10 off
• Live Calligraphy Contract

Paige’s Links:

Website
Instagram
Facebook

Transcript

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Alex Hirsch (00:01)
Hi everyone and welcome back to Keeping Up With The Calligraphers. This is Alex of Signs Our Lives and...

Catherine Brown (00:09)
I'm Cat of Cat Lauren Calligraphy.

Alex Hirsch (00:12)
We are excited to be bringing this episode to you today, but full transparency, we are both coming to ⁓ with our pajamas on in our concert tees.

Catherine Brown (00:24)
Burn the hell out.

Alex Hirsch (00:27)
Burn the hell out.

Catherine Brown (00:29)
We done did it again, everybody. We done overbooked ourselves.

Alex Hirsch (00:33)
Not us, no way. Yeah, so Cat and I both girlbossed a little too close to the sun this past week, as some of you might have seen on Instagram, because we are releasing this episode in like 24 hours after we record this thing, because we want you to take advantage of a time-sensitive offer.

Just to tell you guys about our week, Alex here, that I have been basically from Monday to today's now Sunday, been driving around all of SoCal, as I usually do. Someone literally messed with me the other day, I was like, why are you always driving? Because Southern California is very large and for some reason accounts and event vendors...

we just do this over here. I don't know why. It doesn't make sense to me either, but here we are. So yeah.

Catherine Brown (01:26)
Well, you also like quadruple

booked yourself with like your sweet greens tour and then events multiple times a week.

Alex Hirsch (01:35)
Yeah, so five events this week. Five events, I think I did like 20 chalk boards for Sweetgreen in between all the events and then plus driving from OC to LA to LA to OC and then back and all the things. So I'm tired, but I also didn't fly across the country and back. So go off.

Catherine Brown (01:58)
As one does, you know, I was like, yes, I will. No, okay. What actually happened was I gave myself like almost four back to back to back events. I did not realize when until I like zoomed out in my calendar, I was like, those are all literally back to back. So we worked together Tuesday and then I had to fly out Wednesday for something on Thursday, fly back same day. It was literally on the ground for like,

I don't even think I was on the ground for like 14 hours to be honest with you. I turned right around and came back and then yeah, did the two weddings back to back. So, and yeah, and then it's the twins birthday. They're gonna be three, which is just disrespectful, honestly, but it'll be three on Tuesday. Then we are obviously throwing a party on Saturday. And then I will be leaving.

again to go to Spain.

Alex Hirsch (02:56)
you

Catherine Brown (02:59)
No lessons will be learned.

Alex Hirsch (03:05)
For being teachers, we're just... ⁓ Do what we say, not what we do, I think is the message here.

Catherine Brown (03:05)
Four hair.

Alex Hirsch (03:15)
I am now taking another rest day or days because I'm burnt the fuck out.

yeah, that's, we gotta prioritize what we gotta prioritize and that is why we're coming to you today because, ⁓ as many of you have asked, we have a, live event contract for artists, which is super different and cool. It's different than, the contracts that we calligraphers and artists are used to.

seeing people offer, the contract lawyers offer ⁓ in the world. So yeah, that's it's been requested this episode as well as the contract. So we're here to introduce the person behind it and anything else to add.

Catherine Brown (04:01)
Yeah.

yeah. So if you haven't guessed it already based on I'm sure the title of this episode or you have any idea what we're talking about. this is going to be an episode that is an interview with the legal page. ⁓ and I've worked closely with her to kind of help co-create, ⁓ not necessarily co-create. I didn't write shit. I'm clearly not a lawyer, but just to consult with her about things that would be important to live event artists.

situations that come up for us that we feel like we want some better protection for, ⁓ all of that. And she is such a light, honestly, and just has been a great listener. is very quick on edits. So it's just been really a good partnership. So, before we get into that interview, I'll just go through her bio very quickly. ⁓ so Paige is the founder of the legal page, which hello, we love that title. ⁓

a virtual legal educational platform working with small businesses. She's a certified jurist doctor and holds a double BA in economics and political science. After working as a federal law clerk, Paige traded in traditional law life for a virtual one and opened the doors to the legal page in 2018. She helps her clients and online community run legal and protected businesses through her contract shop, podcast, YouTube channel and blog.

Her mission is to create an online space where the law isn't so scary and entrepreneurs can get legally legit in no time. Law side Paige is a Montana mom who loves hiking, lake time, and a good game of Catan, which we also love a good game of Catan. So I feel like we need to connect on that.

Alex Hirsch (05:45)
Nah,

wait, hold on, you like- okay, first of all, so I could call it Catan. Is it Catan or- I don't know.

Catherine Brown (05:49)
Okay, I don't know.

We call it Catan, but I absolutely could be wrong.

Alex Hirsch (05:54)
For anyone who doesn't know what talking about, a board game that's for nerds. And I didn't know that you liked that. ⁓ Clearly we're gonna have to bring that on our next trip to play. I wonder if they have travel. You say Catan

Catherine Brown (06:02)
We love Catan in this house.

They do,

they do. They have like little card, like a card version. I haven't played it, but I have seen it, so.

Alex Hirsch (06:16)
I

do know that I have an online version because my husband played that. ⁓

Catherine Brown (06:20)
Of course he does.

All right, this has been Unhinged Enough. Thank you all, and here is our interview with Paige. Cue transitional music.

Catherine Brown (06:43)
All right. Hi, Paige. Thanks for joining us here on the Keeping Up with the Calligraphers podcast. We're so happy for you to be here.

Paige Griffith (06:51)
I am honored and appreciative. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to get into this legal chat.

Alex Hirsch (06:57)
You

Catherine Brown (06:58)
Yeah, right. ⁓

Really quickly for anybody that hasn't come across you or your content before, do you want to just give us a brief introduction in your own words?

Paige Griffith (07:07)
Absolutely. So hi everyone. My name is Paige Griffith. I am the owner and lead attorney behind the legal page. We're a legal education platform. So we have lots of free legal goodies and information and knowledge for all small business owners, particularly creatives. And we do it via blog, via podcasts. I have the Legally Legit podcast. So if you like listening to podcasts, which you might, cause you listen now, that's a good one to listen to.

Catherine Brown (07:32)
You

Paige Griffith (07:33)
⁓ YouTubes and then I do lots of short form reels on Instagram and, ⁓ short form videos on Tik Tok. And then we have lots of freebies and resources on our website as well. And then we sell contract templates and all the cart clauses. If you need to like beef up your existing contract, we sell those separately. And then we also have short forms that you may need in your legal toolkit throughout your business journey and legal guides as well.

I am a former photographer. So that's kind of the cool part of my journey is I have been in the wedding and event industry creative space for over a decade. We're getting to close to 15 years, which is dating me a little bit. But I kind of know all of the nuances and ins and outs of big live events, big weddings, ⁓ deliverables.

Catherine Brown (08:14)
Hahaha

Paige Griffith (08:27)
client's expectations. And then I have been now with my pulse in the industry for a very, very long time. So it's kind of a unique perspective of where I have my legal background and, ⁓ you know, business law, contract law, expertise meets creative business owner. And that is where the legal page was founded in 2018. And since then we have just grown kind of exponentially, which has been really cool to see. I have a whole team across the United States.

We have lots of lawyers on our team. It's not just me. And I just love combining both my passions into one. I was able to kind of do something different with my law degree, which is really fun. I'm joyous every single day when I come to work. And I love, like, this is my love language, just talking all things, legalities of running your own business. You don't know what you don't know. And so I'm here to talk about it.

Alex Hirsch (09:22)
We love that. Yeah.

Catherine Brown (09:22)
Amazing. We love a seasoned vet.

⁓

Paige Griffith (09:25)
Hahaha!

⁓

Alex Hirsch (09:27)
And I was gonna say, we both have your contract. worked with you to develop a specific contract for live event artists, which is amazing. And so we're both obviously not lawyers. So everything you say, we're really holding onto every word here. So you have done like a few reels about this. I just listened to one of your most recent episodes. A lot of our questions, I feel like you're definitely answering and consistently, and I'm sure you're answering like the same questions again and again.

but for people who haven't heard these things, we're super pumped that you will repeat yourself. So thank you in advance if you have said this stuff before and are saying it again. ⁓ But we've heard kind of conflicting information about what constitutes a legal contract. what are the bare minimum requirements that you feel are something to be considered as a contract? I've heard something about

Paige Griffith (10:08)
I do not mind.

Alex Hirsch (10:24)
you know, an invoice counts as a contract or, you know, an email agreement that you just have in writing or text messages. Like, what is the actual thing? Because like we see contract, we see agreement, and then they have these random other things that people are like, well, that's an agreement. Sure. Like, and would that even hold up in a court of law? So, so curious to hear your perspective. I feel like that was kind of a loaded question, but I feel like you're super good at answering them. So.

Paige Griffith (10:50)
No, I love this question. It's come up quite a bit because the use of the words contract and agreement are used quite interchangeably. But if you learn anything from this podcast, it is this. A contract is an agreement. It's just actually four cornered contract. An agreement is not necessarily a contract. So at its core, a legally binding contract just needs four basic elements.

and we learned this in contract law when we're in law school, but like you probably haven't been to law school. So let me just reiterate this for you. It is an offer, an acceptance, consideration, and then mutual intent to be bound. I wanna explain those just as simply as possible. What is an offer? An offer is someone says, I will do X for Y. Cool, that's the offer. The acceptance, the other person agrees to those terms.

Alex Hirsch (11:25)
Correct. ⁓

Paige Griffith (11:44)
Consideration, this means that something of value is being exchanged, usually a money for a service. And then mutual intent to be bound, both parties genuinely intend to follow through. And there's usually some type of like parameters surrounding what that mutual intent to be bound is. ⁓ So yes, to answer your question, after I just explained these four things and four elements that are necessary,

to make an agreement basically into a contract, is that even if it's super informal, an email, a text message, a napkin at a bar, it's one of the first cases that we learn in law school and contract law, is that if all of these four elements are present, it could be a legally binding contract. But just because it's legally binding doesn't mean it is a smart thing to do. So trust me, there are tons of holes if you...

contract, so to speak, with clients just through an informal agreement because clients are gonna take advantage of you. Maybe you lose out on money. Maybe you're not covered in all of the situations that we're going to get into. ⁓ So yeah, an invoice technically can count as a contract. It's a really good question. I get it a lot. Sometimes people just send an invoice and they're like, here's the package, here's the price, maybe a few bullet point terms down below. ⁓

practically speaking would usually form a legally binding contract, but there's too much room for interpretation. That is where disputes happen. ⁓ An invoice with payment terms might show like an agreement on price and date, but it doesn't cover cancellations, rescheduling, scope of services, scope creep, additional hours, copyright ownership. All of that is not going to be included in an invoice. So bottom line, just because it can be a contract doesn't mean it's a good one, right?

Catherine Brown (13:15)
Interesting.

Alex Hirsch (13:39)
Yes. And I was kind of yes. I, again, I was just listening to your So I was listening to how you were kind of breaking down the difference between a chat GBT generated contract versus like what an actual lawyer generated contract would be and how it had like, you know, 13 sections and yours had like 33 or something like that. And just how like, yeah, like an invoice is obviously not going to be

Catherine Brown (13:41)
100%.

Paige Griffith (14:02)
You

Alex Hirsch (14:08)
the right move for you if you want something like legally binding it sounds like.

Paige Griffith (14:13)
Yeah, and I always tell people like something's better than nothing. So I'm never going to be a lawyer that's like, you know, don't not you don't have a no contract and like maybe don't send an invoice. Like if you have an invoice and you're just starting out, at least try to be as clear as you can be with the bullet point terms. ⁓ I always suggest having a contract for all of these reasons that I've explained in like a few of the situations that I've, you know, hopefully popped up in your brain here. But I

an invoice that kind of acts as a legally binding contract, there is an agreement is quid pro quo, there's an offer acceptance consideration, there's usually mutual intent, they're kind of signing on to the invoice, there's an implied contract there, they've paid you the invoice has been sent. ⁓ It's better than nothing, right? It's gonna get you about 10 % of the way there, maybe. And then it's always just about becoming more legally legit as your business grows.

Catherine Brown (15:05)
Yeah.

Paige Griffith (15:11)
And as you continue on, will learn things from Cat and Alex on like, Hey, we had this situation. That's not going to be resolved with an invoice. So your contract is your legal foundation. It's the thing that is going to, you're going to come back to you time and time again with your clients. it's going to save you in situations where like, you don't know what to say. Your client, your contract can say it for you, which is really nice. And your clients go back to contracts too more than you think.

Like they have laser beam focus on their contracts that they signed. And if they have a question before coming to you, they will probably open up the contract and see if it resolves it. And then if they feel like coming to you, even if they feel like they have the answer with the contract, they're going to see if you have the same answer as your contract. So your contract is really important for you to understand as well, because you always, always want to do exactly as your contract says. You want your business policies to be unchanged.

and your contract is only as good as your willingness to enforce it. And it doesn't mean you have to be like, this is what my contract says, but you just want to double down on your business policies that are in your contract when your client has those questions that come up.

Catherine Brown (16:24)
Totally, my gosh. Okay, so that kind of leads us into the next question we had in just talking about the evolution of contracts and how that kind of ties in with business. So I know both of us not necessarily intentionally, but it wasn't unintentionally, waited to implement contracts. One, just when we were newer in business, we didn't.

have the funds to invest in some of the contracts that were available at the time, or definitely not the funds to be investing in consulting a lawyer to custom draft a contract for us. I feel like that's risky, but I'll let you kind of tell us, is that risky? Is there a point in time where you recommend at this point, absolutely you need something in place, or are there certain business activities that you would recommend?

Absolutely not, I wouldn't touch this without a contract. Like, help us guide some people who might be in our shoes where we were a couple years ago.

Paige Griffith (17:20)
Yeah, this is super common. I don't want to discredit anyone for just like giving business a go. Good for you. It's really common to amongst wedding vendors. Like there's not, there's just always this like you're trying to get into business. Maybe it's a passion turning into a side hustle. You start off booking your friends and family as clients. Like you're just trying to get your portfolio established. I get that. Or you're booking like a friend of a friend through Instagram DMs.

Totally understand it is risky, but your risk level and I call it like your risk meter is actually pretty low at that point. Is there a time when you should have a contract in place? It always is the beginning. I think a contract is like number one thing that is going to protect you before business insurance, before you become an LLC, like you need a contract and here's when you need it actually, when the consideration is at play. So we go back to your guys's original question. ⁓

Catherine Brown (18:04)
Yeah.

Paige Griffith (18:19)
If it's just a hobby or a passion project and you're trying to like see if you want to make this an actual business, the minute that money is exchanged, a contract really needs to be in play because there's just, there's high emotions, there's high expectations and you just have no idea when something could go wrong. And full disclosure here, usually it goes wrong with people that you know closest. So friends and family, sometimes there's bigger debacles.

And I always just say like, this is, I just need you to sign a contract. Like it's fine, I'm gonna treat you as a client as I would any other client. ⁓ So even if you're just starting out, just remember like your time, your energy, your artistry deserves protection and it's needed in every single instance, even with family and friends. I will never forget the biggest mistake that I made back in like portrait photography world.

was having a couple of friends sign on and then they like nickel and dimed me for all of these additional edits and like they threatened bad reviews. And like, this is back in the day when like social media wasn't really totally a big deal or a big thing. ⁓ but it's like friends expectations sometimes can get wildly out of control. And so you just really want those parameters in place from the get-go. You all have the best of intentions when working with clients. And again, we're talking here, the five.

to maybe 10 % of yucky client situations, but they do come up and you just don't know when they're gonna come up and who they're gonna come up with. ⁓ So yes, phasing in contracts, it should be intentional and it should be intentional when you are moving from kind of hobby, passion project to even side hustle to full blown business. Like if you're in that stage and people are giving you money for X services, contract is crucial.

Catherine Brown (20:13)
So follow up to that, if someone isn't in a position where they're ready to invest or they're not able to invest, what is maybe one or two actionable steps that you would recommend for them or maybe a free resource like you mentioned that they could check out about what should be included in the contract that they might be putting together?

Paige Griffith (20:31)
Yeah, so I always tell people it's kind of a non-negotiable when you're setting up your business, just as it would be if you had like a brick and mortar business, you're gonna need to do some check boxes to like open your business doors. ⁓ So even if you feel like you don't have the funds, I was just on another recording and someone was telling me like, I would press upon my members and like my students all day long, put it on a credit card and pay it off within the year. ⁓ Which is an interesting take because I think I kind of agree, honestly.

It's like the gift that keeps on giving, like the minute that you just use that as your overhead, you'll book a couple of clients and you'll pay off your contract. And then your contract keeps on giving time and time again, every time you book a new client. So I feel like people just think the shiny objects are non-negotiables, like an Instagram account, a website, you're going to pay for a website. You're going to pay for that overhead. A contract is a business non-negotiable in my eyes.

If you're looking for like a free resource on like what you need to have included in your contract, I will absolutely make sure that your guys's audience has my contract clause checklist and it'll go through like every provision that you need to make sure you have in your contract. ⁓ but again, every contract is really specific towards the service providing that you have to your clients. So a general service agreement isn't going to cover

live event calligraphy as Cat and I know we worked on that contract together and she had like a line item bullet point list of 12 things she wanted to make sure that I had included in there and then more than she had more feedback because she has experience on like, Hey, all these situations occur. How would we resolve that in contract language? Um, so lots of times like a generic contract again, might get you 30, 40 % of the way there. Great. But it's not super specific to your business.

and to the clientele that you're serving and the offerings that you have for them or the type of services that you're providing to them. So I'm never gonna be someone that says like, don't do it, skirt around it, like try not, you know, try to avoid this. Like I think it's an overhead cost that you need every single day and the most important, more important than your business insurance and LLC.

Catherine Brown (22:36)
Yeah.

Alex Hirsch (22:45)
I love that. That's interesting. ⁓ Yeah, I mean, I've definitely like speaking from personal experience, the same thing, you know, I think over time we've just added more and more to contracts or like made it way more specific. And I think that's what I love about your contract that you guys came up with was just like all the things that we've seen over the years that were like, wait, we should really be requesting this. We should really be adding in this or this like, if this happens, then we should have this, you know, like those like ABC situations. So I think

Catherine Brown (22:47)
that that's how

Paige Griffith (22:56)
Yes.

Alex Hirsch (23:15)
that's been, you know, like a great upgrade for me personally. And then I've also like, ⁓ you know, customized it a little bit where I've added some stuff as well. So like, you know, we both customize our con like your contract

And what's the best approach to really personalizing those as we're gaining that experience, as we're wanting to add more things without accidentally being like, oh, and we worded that incorrectly, or we shouldn't really put that in a contract. Is there ever any sections we shouldn't modify, or how should we handle those addendums that we want to add?

Paige Griffith (23:54)
this is a good question. Okay, so first and foremost, I want to say I totally believe that contracts are living documents. So in my opinion, you should do a contract audit ⁓ or more of like a back end business audit on yourself once a year and that includes contracts. So really think through like what happened with my clients the past 12 months. Some people do it every six months too, just to make sure that their contracts are always updated.

And then you're adding in things. Maybe you're clarifying language in your contracts surrounding that. I'm going to get to the second part of your question of like what not to touch here in a second, but this all aligns together because, because I think they're living documents, I'm going to change the contracts too. And one thing you should know about our contracts is this was like a morals and ethics thing when I first started, is the industry may shift or client expectations may change, or I'm working with industry.

education leaders and thought leaders. And they have experiences that I do not know about. And they will come to me and be like, Hey, this situation occurred, or this is going down in my, you know, Facebook group. What do we do here? Is there something we need to change in the clause and myself and the attorneys here at the legal page, we will update contracts free of charge. You will get complimentary updates. will send you an email notification that like this, this, and this has changed in the contract. And here is why. So that's awesome. You.

Catherine Brown (25:16)
You just sent one out.

⁓

Paige Griffith (25:18)
Yeah,

we just sent one out. Yeah. So it's like, Hey, if this changed, this is why here's what I would do for future client bookings, like, you know, replace these clauses or replace the contract in its entirety for future clients. so that's really cool. And I think people really love that about the legal page is we do do that and it's not an additional charge. I don't think it should be. And

Then there's like non-negotiables that I don't want you to touch. So when you open up a contract template from wherever you're getting it, but if you open one from us, there's going to be memos on the side. I'm not going to leave you like empty handed. I want to walk you through it. So you understand what your contract actually says and why it says certain things. So you'll see memos on the side for me. You'll also see if then situations, I understand that like maybe this option doesn't work for your business. So maybe choose this option.

And then you'll see Alex, like you said, I will say modify this clause to whatever your business practices are. And that means that the clause doesn't really relate to other clauses. It's so service specific that there's not a lot of legal heavy language in it. And I give you some base language to work off of. So you can always modify clauses. We have the freedom to contract in the United States. You have the freedom to write your own legal language. What I don't want you to do.

is change any of those boilerplate general provisions at the bottom. So you'll know when they start popping up, it's the words you don't know, like indemnification, enforce majeure, an entire agreement, and like, you know, no waiver and severability or like WTF is going on. Don't touch those clauses. Okay. And any clause that has reference to another clause, you want to be very careful about modifying.

because one tweak in one clause that relates to like section seven, what might mean that section seven needs to change or be nuanced down a little bit. So just be careful of that. And then I always disclaim like if you do modify your own contracts and you aren't a lawyer and you aren't an experienced contract lawyer or business lawyer, definitely try to get a lawyer to review it just so they can like check the boxes that you didn't miss anything. ⁓

And then yeah, we can get into like non-negotiables that I would suggest in your contract, but I don't know if that was part of your question or if it was more just like what to modify and what not to modify.

Alex Hirsch (27:43)
Yeah, I think it was a little like more what to modify versus not as well as like, know, if there's a specific order and things like that. And I think you kind of answered that for us.

Paige Griffith (27:55)
Awesome.

Catherine Brown (27:55)
have a question though.

If we're adjusting those sections, I know you just put out something about some AI, but I feel like, again, I'm not a lawyer, so even looking at modifying some of those sections that are just individualized to my business, I think myself and other people might turn to AI and say, hey, this is my business process. I wanna modify this section for my contract using AI.

Is there a best practice in doing so? Are there things that we should look out for or avoid? Like again, I know we're not, you know, talking about doing a whole contract or modifying the sections that you're saying not to touch, but for those sections where I'm like, my little girly pop language just is not going to get this done. And it's not flowing with the rest of my contract. I need someone to help me judge this up. Like, is there a best practice for using AI for those pieces?

Paige Griffith (28:48)
Right now there's not. ⁓ AI is, it's a good sidekick in your back pocket. ⁓ But honestly, like the more and more that we keep testing it out, language may sound more official just because an AI generation robot regurgitated it to you. But a lot of times it means nothing. And it could actually invalidate other clauses in your contract. So like, for example, a contract could say,

⁓ your client agrees to pay on time, but if it doesn't say what happens if they don't, then there's no consequence. And like AI forgot to put that in there because you didn't prompt it appropriately. So a lot of times AI generated platforms are only as good as your prompt putting into it. That's where enforcement and valid. Contract clauses get really, really tricky with AI, but again, I am not going to be the one to like tell you not to at least do something.

So like if you want a provision in your contract and you have no idea how to write it and you're leaning on AI, I would say like at least try to prompt it as best as humanly possible regarding your client experiences and maybe tell them like what your contract says in regards to other provisions that may be implicated and then just see what it says. ⁓

Always, always, always remember it is not a trained lawyer. Yes, it took the bar exam, like chat GBT passed the bar exam. People always ask me this and I'm like, great. Well, the bar exam is a logic test and like AI can totally, ⁓ you know, pass a logic test, but can it actually like stand up and argue in front of a judge or a jury or an arbiter of the law and know exactly how they are interpreting nuances in contract law? No, like it's not a human. We all know.

⁓ if we're talking to like calligraphers or copywriters or like, you know, like at the end of the day, AI is doing like really cool things, but does it actually have that human touch? No, it isn't an actual lawyer. And good example of this, you guys is lawyers have been disbarred by using AI because it was hallucinating and giving them incorrect cases that were like, no, these exist. Well, the judge couldn't find it. Block clerks couldn't find it.

And lawyers are getting disbarred because they're using AI incorrectly because it doesn't have the human touch. So I always, you guys, you've probably heard this like with helping with blog posts on your website or copy on your website. Like it's going to regurgitate really cool things back to you. And the generated output is going to sound awesome, but you have to go in with a fine tooth comb and make sure that it's actually correct and legitimate. ⁓

And these models are only getting smarter and a little bit crazier, like the US Copyright Office just put out this week that it is infringing on artists' copyrighted works. And we all need to be very, very cautious of that because it's taking from the lot of the online space. And a lot of that was copyrighted authorship. And so it's just fascinating, like...

how AI is all working with the legal world and it's gonna take time, it's bureaucratic, it's case law and judicial processes that take time. And so it'll be interesting to see what happens over time. But again, Cat, to go back to the core of your question, I'm not gonna say don't do it. I'm just gonna say tread really cautiously because it's gonna sound great, but it could really, really ⁓ affect you.

and actually enforcing it or making it a valid clause or legal language in your contract. So ⁓ yeah, AI contracts and AI language is really bare-boned. At the end of the day, that's what we've been seeing. And as you said, Alex, I just tore apart a chat GBT contract and the lawyers and I were, ⁓ we were a little surprised, but you probably saw in the podcast too, was like, man, this is actually like, this part isn't that bad.

like good for AI that it's gotten to this place now. So yeah, I feel like, you know, I'm always toying with it, but at the end of the day, like I'm a lawyer and I'm a professional and like doctors are saying this, CPAs are saying this, like we have licenses and malpractice insurance for a reason and we are experts in X field for a reason. So I don't think we would be professional if we didn't like stand up for our profession as a whole.

Alex Hirsch (33:15)
Yeah, I mean the same thing for artists, right? Like it's like it's stealing from artists. That was, think one of the biggest things at least, you know, in my little world online was that like when chat to or not even chat when AI started, you know, becoming even more popular the past couple of years. It's like it's literally stealing from artists. So it's like hearing that it's stealing from or making up ⁓ completely not even real cases is like absolutely wild. ⁓ I am curious, like, do you guys ever like if

Catherine Brown (33:16)
100%.

Alex Hirsch (33:45)
someone did come up with a contract, is that one of the services that you guys offer of reviewing contracts or is that something where you refer out or you just say like go to your local lawyer?

Paige Griffith (33:55)
Yeah, it's kind of fact and circumstance dependent, but it's not through the legal page. So the legal page is not a law firm. It's just a contract template shop and legal education platform. But I do have a law firm separate called Griffith Swazilaw and myself and my attorneys do a lot of like intellectual property work over there. So trademark law, copyright law. ⁓ And then we do do some business audits, like whole brand protection and do some contract reviews.

Sometimes we can take on cases and sometimes we do have to refer out. But at the end of the day, I've been in this business a long time. I have a lot of colleagues in the industry and we have a really good referral list for small business lawyers, particularly that work with creatives. So if you guys need a lawyer in your state, please don't hesitate to reach out. I probably have a good chunk of them so you don't have to go to the yellow pages or go to Google and try to figure it out yourself. Like that's, that's non-helpful to anyone.

Alex Hirsch (34:46)
that's awesome. And I think it's always good to have someone review things, if, depending on that level of what you're willing to financially invest. But then I guess for now, Cat, I guess I'll let you kind of share what's coming up and Paige you as well.

Catherine Brown (35:04)
Yeah, Paige, do you wanna talk about it? know we have the, I think it's the mid-year sale, I forget. Do you wanna describe what that is, what's going on, and how that might be helpful to our audience, especially those that may be in a position where they wanna invest, but they haven't been able to just yet?

Paige Griffith (35:21)
Yeah, so this is a really, really great time to get full legal protection for a fraction of the price. So we do two sales a year and one is coming up. It's called the mid-year sale and we do this every single year. And Cat is one of our amazing affiliates, particularly for the calligraphy industry. And she helped us do the live event calligraphy contract. She's reviewed the calligraphy contract, stationary contract. We have a combined contract if you do both.

And so this is a really great time to kind of stock up on all of those legal contracts that we've talked about today. Additional contracts you may need, like maybe you have an existing contract, but you need a cancellation contract or a rescheduling contract or a refund contract of some sort. Or maybe third parties keep paying for your services and you're like, what happens if a third party's paying and I need my clients to sign the contract and that's a third party payer addendum?

So a lot of people at this period of time, it's gonna be hugely discounted. We're talking 40 % or more off of our entire site. It's only four days long. So be very aware that it's only May 19th through May 22nd, and then we close the doors. And then Cat and Alex will have an additional code that you guys can use as well to, you know, just get a little bit more off.

And I know Cat will definitely talk about like all the contracts she uses in her business. But just to give you guys a little bit of a reason behind why people love the legal page ⁓ is they're lawyer drafted, but they're written in plain English. So everyone can understand them. Your contract is also only as good as everybody's understanding of the contract. It means nothing if there's a lot of confusion and legal mumbo jumbo is I like to call it.

If your contracts don't know, if your clients don't know what your contracts say, then your contract really means nothing. Like there was no mutual intent to be bound because they didn't even know what that meant. ⁓ So you always want rights and responsibilities of all parties involved. Two-sided contracts are better. Of course, it's your business contract. So it's going to be more heavily favored towards protecting you as a business owner. ⁓ But our contracts also allow that personalization that we talked about. So

You can modify them without breaking legal structure. And that's, know what people worry about, but I will walk you through what to do and what not to do. You want to think of them as like flexible, but really sturdy framework. And that is how we've created our contract templates. So again, another reason not to use AI, it's just going to give you a contract, but tell you nothing about it and like what you can change and why you could change things. And like, if you do this, maybe do this.

⁓ And then yeah, just remember lifetime free updates. So it's also something that's like a good investment now and continual investment into the future. ⁓ And I highly recommend it. Cat, if you wanna like maybe, I think what would be helpful for people is like going over just a couple clauses that you love in the live calligraphy contract that like maybe if people don't have, they should look into that contract.

Catherine Brown (38:24)
Yeah, think for, I mean, a couple, just like pieces of feedback for you. My biggest flex is that I've actually negotiated with at least three luxury brands where I did not like their agreement. I was like, there's so many things I disagree with. I have one, can we just use mine? And they were totally fine with that. I've negotiated out of an NDA with like another person. So was like, I just, need some of these things and they were like fine with.

Paige Griffith (38:35)
Hmm

Cool.

Catherine Brown (38:48)
you know, taking ours in, I've had multiple big luxury, heritage brand legal teams look at it, have never sent me a red line. So I feel like that's a big feather in your cap. So, you know, just something that I feel like was important to share. But ⁓ I think for me, the pieces that I didn't have in contracts before that when we put together something

Paige Griffith (38:56)
Wow. Cool.

Catherine Brown (39:12)
was really just like how to structure out the services and the things that I'm offering. I think before I was literally just writing like for our live calligraphy services. So even just that first page or not the first page, whatever it is. I don't know the right word, but that where it's outlining what the services are where I'm like my deliverable includes X amount of time on a call, X amount of time for setup, about or up to X amount on site. I think that helped me get really clear in my offering for

what I'm offering people within my package, so that was helpful for me. And then honestly, time and time again, the piece of it where it talks about my initial payment ⁓ and what happens to that if they decide to cancel, all of those things. I have implemented that contract at least twice and that was something that dragged out for multiple times.

Paige Griffith (40:04)
Mm.

Catherine Brown (40:04)
There was

someone that I even, you know, based on our contract, we were able to get full payment even though they decided to cancel because they didn't meet their end, ⁓ which was super, super helpful. And then I think the other piece that is really specific to creative business owners that you wouldn't get, like we were saying in some general agreement is the piece you have about ⁓ the, I forget what it's called, but it's like talking about the artistic style.

and really just making that expectation clear of like, this is not a font, it is my own handwritten calligraphy. I have the creative license to decide what is going to look best for this project. If you don't like what I decide, that is not sufficient reason to cancel, not enforce this contract, any of those pieces. Because sometimes, like again, we like to think our clients do all the research, they look through all of your work samples, all of those things, which

Paige Griffith (40:31)
Mm-hmm.

Catherine Brown (40:58)
I think is actually how it's written in the contract is like the client has reviewed my portfolio and has determined that my services will meet that, but they don't. Sometimes they don't and they'll try to come back with that and like you said, it's so nice to have that like the Santa of like, sorry you don't like the way that turned out. Unfortunately, this is still our agreement. Like you signed it. I even have it where they have to initial it. You doubled down on it. You said you read it. I don't know what to tell you.

Paige Griffith (41:00)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah, that's the power of contracts, right? It can talk for you when you don't know what to say. So that's really nice to always fall back on that. And yeah, you were talking about like really clear fee and retainer clauses and making sure that you explicitly.

say what that retainer is for and that it's non-refundable and using verbiage like liquidated damages, ⁓ items to be customized, artistic style regarding the items to be customized. I know we were talking a lot about like what happens if your clients are supplying the product versus you supplying the product. Like all of those nuances need to be in a live calligraphy contract.

Catherine Brown (41:56)
Mm-hmm.

Paige Griffith (42:00)
⁓ rush fees is a big thing as well, or like going beyond the scope. So you were talking about like scope of work and then what happens if you're going beyond the scope and that all relates to your fee and retainer clause as well. ⁓ and rush fees, if like they're booking something 30 days in advance versus, you know, 180 days in advance and how you can get collateral for those types of events. yeah, everything is included in that contract. And like you said, we actually just had, someone else review the contract and give us even more feedback. And so we just tweaked things and added a few things in to make it

Catherine Brown (42:10)
Mm-hmm.

Paige Griffith (42:30)
better. So that's what you can expect from legal page contracts. And you guys, if you do anything kind of beyond live calligraphy as well, just reach out to us because we can point you in the right direction of like what contract is going to best suit your business. We can also tell you like this one's the closest. Here's how you would probably need to modify it on your own, just so you can have a general basis to work off of.

Alex Hirsch (42:51)
I think that's so awesome. And it was so great having you. I think this was super informative for us as well as will be for our audience who's been kind of asking us some of these questions as well. ⁓ And so we're just so lucky to have you in our corner to have something where, you know, it's been collaborated on by real artists and a real lawyer. ⁓ And so, yeah, we're just we're pumped that this is a resource that we can provide. ⁓

collectively and thank you so much for coming on. ⁓

Paige Griffith (43:25)
Of course! Thank you so much for having me.

Alex Hirsch (43:27)
Yeah, and then where can people find you? We'll obviously link it in the show notes and everything like that, but just in case people are listening, want to write it down now.

Paige Griffith (43:37)
Yeah, so thelegalpage.com, that's P-A-I-G-E, it's playing words with my first name, and yes it is trademarked. ⁓ And then you can find me at The Legal Page on Instagram, and then TLPfacebook.com is our Facebook group, that's where myself and my lawyers hang out, and we answer open Q and A all day long, so I can't answer very specific one-on-one questions for legal ethics and responsibility purposes in emails or DMs.

but I can there. So that's a good place just to like social listen and kind of learn what's happening with clients and vendors in the industry. And you'll probably glean a lot of insight there. ⁓ and yeah, you can always, you can always reach out to me on any of those platforms too.

Alex Hirsch (44:17)
Amazing. Definitely bookmarking your Facebook group now because I didn't know about that. ⁓ So great. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. ⁓ And yeah, have a great one.

Paige Griffith (44:28)
Thank you.

Catherine Brown (44:28)
page.

Catherine Brown (44:31)
Alright, well thank you everybody for listening in to our interview with Paige. It was a short and sweet one for sure, but honestly there were so many nuggets that I took out of it. Starting with I need to change my contract from saying agreement to contract like immediately. I don't know if there was anything that you like highlighted, but there were so many notes that I took while we were listening.

Alex Hirsch (44:56)
100 % I think that was a lot packed in so I think I need to literally go back and re-listen because it was going so fast that my brain could not even keep up with notes. So if you need to listen to this at like point five then we understand because that was a lot of legal jargon but also so important for us all to understand the nuances of why we all need a contract versus a agreement.

Catherine Brown (45:23)
And as Paige mentioned, ⁓ at the time of this recording, it is going to be the time of her semi-annual sale or her mid-year sale, I think it's called. So that is going from May 19th to the 22nd, and it's a 40 % discount off of everything in her shop. So now is the time. If you don't have a contract, go ahead and grab that live event calligraphy contract.

It can be adapted like she mentioned, if you're not a calligrapher, can still be adapted to watercolor or fashion illustration or I can't think of anything because like we said, we are very burnt out, but whatever your discipline may be, it can be adapted to that. As Paige mentioned, you can reach out to her as well and if you want to make sure you're doing that the right way. And then use Cat Lauren 10 for an additional $10 off this week.

So that's cat see a t la u r e n 10 and we'll put that in the show notes for you as well but even if you Already have a contract and maybe when you were listening to us talk you were like like that addendum might be something that I like my contract But I want to add to it and beef it up now is also a good time to add in any of those smaller things Maybe you're subcontracting people you need an independent contractor ⁓

contract to send out to people. There's so many great things. I'll be sharing about some of that throughout the week. If you don't follow me already, now would be a good time to do that. And that actually transitioned us perfectly. So if you're not already following me, ⁓ I am Cat Lauren Calligraphy. That's Cat with a C. And Alex, where can they find you?

Alex Hirsch (47:08)
Signs of Our Lives on Instagram and if you would also like to follow our podcast page, if you are somehow listening to this podcast and not following our podcast page, what are you doing? That's where we share our really funny Met Gala memes, obviously. ⁓ So that is keeping up with the calligs and that's pretty much it. Like, follow, subscribe.

Catherine Brown (47:22)
You

Leave us a review.

Leave us a review. Five stars. Tell us what you like so we know what to keep doing.

Alex Hirsch (47:37)
Yeah.

I don't know if people know this, but you can leave five stars without leaving a comment. Like you can just leave five stars. Or if you want to leave a specific comment under episodes in Spotify, you can do that as well. So more you know.

Catherine Brown (47:55)
we will

try our best to remember to go look at it.

All right, I think that's it.

Alex Hirsch (48:02)
All right, thank you

everyone. Thanks to you so much for keeping up. We are barely keeping up, but we love that you all are here keeping up with us. So, on that note, goodbye.

Catherine Brown (48:13)
Yes.

Love you guys, bye!