What the World Will Become
Welcome to What the World Will Become, a podcast about the humans who dedicate their lives to building a more free and just world. In Season 1, we heard from women-identified and gender non-conforming activists around the globe who are carving out spaces for creative resistance and new possibilities in the face of profound challenges. Now, in Season 2—presented entirely in Spanish—we continue these powerful conversations, centering voices from across Latin America and beyond.
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What the World Will Become
Episode 2: Shape of Corruption and the Undying Spirit of Resistance with Ke Rafitoson
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Meet the woman who's standing up to corruption in Madagascar. Join us for a candid conversation with Dr. Ketakandriana Rafitoson, a fierce human rights defender and activist, known to many as Ke. In this riveting episode, Ke walks us through her groundbreaking work, from blowing the whistle on a potential case of corruption and money laundering involving Madagascar's lychee trade with the European Union, to her poignant resignation from the administrative jurisdiction following a heartrending case. Ke's story is a testament to the power of individual action in standing up against corruption – and it promises to leave you inspired.
Fighting Corruption in Madagascar
Marie BerryMy guest today is Dr Ketakandriana Rafitosan , also known as Kay , who is a Malagasy independent researcher , human rights defender and activist . Kay is a fierce campaigner against corruption in Madagascar and a staunch believer in people power . I first met Kay in 2017 , when she joined the first ever IGLI Summer Institute in Colorado . She arrived after a more than 40 hour plane ride , with an exuberance and energy that made all of us quickly realize how powerful she is . She was also extremely pregnant with her third child . Nonetheless , over the past years , kay has continued to impress all of us with her work against corruption , and she has joined up with larger organizations like Transparency International to run their anti-corruption work in the country . She also became the national coordinator for Madagascar's Publish what you Pay , and she completed not one , but two PhDs one in political science and one in development sociology . Kay's work has put her squarely in the crosshairs of many powerful groups whose corrupt practices are threatened by her work . In November 2022 , kay was judicially harassed by a powerful and politically connected Malagasy conglomerate of leachy exporters for blowing the whistle about a potential case of corruption and money laundering and the leachy trade between Madagascar and the European Union .
Marie BerryKay and I were reunited in March 2023 in Kathmandu , nepal , where we were both participants in a convening of more than 80 activists from 44 countries . Thus , the conversation that you are about to hear happened in my hotel room at this conference , with a view of the Kathmandu skyline . Can you set the stage by telling us what it is ? You're from Madagascar , I believe . The fourth largest country in Africa by land size Is that right .
Marie BerryYeah , or maybe the largest island in the world , something like that .
KeThat's one of the third largest island in the world . So it is as sad like .
Marie BerrySo yeah , tell us about it .
KeThree times as big as France . That can give you a size of the country . We are 28 million of Malacasy people right now . It is a huge mix of cultural background because the first settlers came from Indonesia and Malaysia and then came the Arabic people and the African people and Chinese people . Then we were colonized by the Dutch , the British and then France . This makes a huge mix and our language is called Malacasy and it is a melting pot between Sanskrit from India , somalabic language , a bit of Swaili Malay language , of course , french English , like my name , you know , rafi Tusson .
KeThe son at the end means son of a daughter from the English . So my name means I am the daughter of the seventh boy , because my father of the seventh of siblings they were 11 , so he was the seventh boy , so I am the daughter of the seventh boy . That's why you have so much long names in Madagascar , because they tell stories . My first name , ketakandina , means little princess , madagascar . So I keep saying it is a fake democracy because , as I explained beforehand , we have all the formal framework , legal and institutional , but it's not working because politicians don't work for the common good . They are there to be served and not to serve the population and the citizenship is very weak because they are not aware of their rights , and it is very hard to trigger a revolution in Madagascar . I've been dreaming of this like starting from high school , and that's why we set up that movement . We called Wake Up Madagascar in 2013 , when we were in the middle of a transition .
Marie BerryLet me back you up then , because let me tell you so K . You've been an activist in .
KeMadagascar for a long time .
Marie BerryCan you tell me a little bit about how you came to your activism and what motivated it ?
KeSo , once again , everything started from that book , the Social Contract , and then I studied political science at the university , without the aim of becoming a politician myself , because I hate politicians . But the aim was to study politics in order to have an understanding of the system and how to rework it for good so that it really works for the people . And at the same time , it was public law and political science merged them . So that's my main major , my background , and then I discovered at some point that injustice was everywhere .
KeI had this experience of becoming almost a judge because it was a dream of my mom , because being a judge in Madagascar will grant you fame and fortune and power , and , coming from a poor background raised by our single mom , because my father died when I was seven , it was important for her to secure me and my brother . Like you , have good positions , then you'll be safe Becoming a judge . Then I resigned very soon after because I discovered that it was totally crooked by corruption and that it doesn't stick with my values , so I have to leave . So people thought I was crazy . So I'm the only ever person who resigned from that system in Madagascar . Until now , I'm the only crazy one .
Marie BerryWell , what was , what was ? What did you like ? What prompted you to resign ? I mean , you said yeah , so something happened , a particular case .
KeSo there was . I was part of the administrative jurisdiction , which means you as a citizens , you you are against the state for one reason against the government in a case like , and that particular case is that there was an old man deprived from his pension fund because he was retired . So he was reclaiming it , and we have been always told that in such situations , in the administrative cases , you have to make the state win , because the state doesn't have to lose funds you know we're repaying back anything so you have to make the state win , and I find it very unfair because it's not what we are supposed to do as a judge . You are here to make what is right and treat every case related to the law . So I was very disappointed and I quit just like this , because it's very important me to me to stick to my values . I can't do something which goes against my thinking , for whatever reason , if it , even , if it will make me richer or whatever , I can't when I can't attack you .
KeSo yeah , so I've been involved in very civil society organizations and also launched Movements , especially for youth empowerment , youth and women . So I won an award in 2012 , for instance , and we launched the Women and youths League for democracy . That was very ambitious Doing electoral monitoring and , you know , teaching politics to grassroots people , really explaining why it matters , how it works and what you can do with it . And then I had this training in Boston in 2016 at the FSI , where I met you , yeah , and that was a real game changer for my life , because I discovered about Non-violent civil resistance and started from there . Until now , I've committed myself to spread the word around the country . But we can resist and we out to resist and this is how we can resist . So I developed a kind of small manual On it and how to create movements , how to build people power , bleblah , blah , and we have done a Small movie on it . So I'm lecturing at the Catholic University , for instance , and the content is about severe resistance . So I'm teaching my students how to do it , because it's about , you know , triggering this collective will and waking up people .
KeLike we have so many issues . We don't have to wait for a miracle because no one is going to save us from it , from this dirty thing we're living in . We're a lost country , as I used to say , like no one knows about Madagascar . When I go at conferences or places . People always say you're the first Malagasy person I met . Where is Madagascar ? It's okay , because everyone Cannot know everything , but I'm acting like you know , making my country known as well , and it's important that Malagasy people really work for Madagascar . And this is a very rich country , by the way . It has lots of minerals , a great biodiversity , you have the land , you have the people who have resources . But , to give you an example , only 15% of Malagasy people have access to electricity 15 . So that's why I'm very upset . You know , this idea of energy transition is good , of course , but how can we contribute to this energy transition if we don't first have access to energy ? So it creates like a . You know , there is no coherence in all of this and I want people to know , to be Aware of that . So later on , it evolved .
KeIn 2018 , I turned to anti-corruption because Transparency International called me in Madagascar , the local chapter , which is a local association , but just affiliated . We have accreditation from the Secretary of Transparency International . They called me saying look , we are looking for an executive director . Would you be interested ? I said yeah , why not ? So we got through interviews and stuff and I didn't hope to be hired because I was very vocal . They they've asked me what do you know about our organization ? They say I said nothing because I don't see you on the streets .
KeAre supposed to be a fight against corruption , but where is the fight ? Because I know you are releasing reports and doing this and that , but for me it's not enough . So I forgot about it . But they called me back and they said that they need relief , the kind of fresh energy and also to bring up the fight . So yeah , that was my motivation , because corruption undermines everything Should be human rights , access to social services , health care and dedication or group by corruption in Madagascar . So a lot of people die from public hospitals because they can't afford even basic medicine . So that was my motivation , if I am still very fond of democracy and social justice , but it would be useless to fight in those areas as long as corruption is there . So I said it's a root cause of everything , so let's do something about it . So my task is to bring trying to bring people power into that anti-corruption framework and make Madagascar people strive for more integrity or transparency , more accountability in all levels , and I still do believe that every person can do something . Yeah .
Marie BerryWow , I mean , it sounds like such a massive fight . In some ways it is so
Fighting Corruption in Madagascar
Marie Berry. Can you describe , like , how does corruption show up for people ? You mentioned people dying in a hospital because they can't access care . How does it show up in Madagascar ? People's lives on a daily basis .
KeSo , yeah , going back to this hospital thing most of the time , when you have your pregnant , of course , and you go to a public hospital or every kind of hospital , and then , when you are about to deliver , the doctor will tell you oh , you have some complications , you have to have a surgery instead of giving birth naturally , because you have to pay for that . And they do it to extort some money from you . And lots of cases happen when they take the woman and to the how to say , bloc operatoire , I'm not sure Operating room , yeah , or so they bring the woman to the operating room and start the operation . In the middle of operation They'll come back to the family saying the process is on the way , but you have to give us the money now . What ? Otherwise we'll let her die and the baby too .
KeWhere can people find money ? You know the average salary in Madagascar . I would say it's like $50 a month for ordinary people and doctors sometimes are asking for $200 , for instance . Where can people find this money ? So a lot of people die in hospitals for such cases . It's horrible . And the fact is that those people are not keen to report those cases or go to courts to report what they lived because the judicial system itself is crooked and it's only those who have money who can win a case . So even if you have the right , you defend your right . You can't win a trial in Madagascar without bribing your lawyer , the judges , the whole system . So it's totally desperate and that's why I need an uprising of people saying enough is enough , we deserve better , we need better .
KeAnd it's all in the everyday life . Talking about school , for instance , when you want to register your kid into some kinds of school , they will ask for bribe or they only take the kids of powerful people who can't pay . So it's everywhere . And we have the phenomenon of sex torsion in universities , mainly sex for grades . So professors are male professors who ask for sexual favors from female mostly , but also some male students in order to give them grades and to let them pass other classes . And we released a study about that within Transparency International last year and we confronted , you know , the professors from universities to that , like , look , this is what happened . And we had an answer from one of the head of universities saying yeah , but it's normal . You know , it's a student who are teasing us , so you are the ones to be shocked . It's also cultural here . It's OK to do that , and I was so upset about that . And so it's everywhere and it's killing us . That's how we present it . Corruption is killing us , so we really need to uproot it , right .
Marie BerryYeah . Well , how are you building that people power to challenge that system ?
KeYeah . So the first thing we do is that we created youth clubs , youth anti-corruption clubs in high schools and universities , and we are empowering them with knowledge . First because our strategy is to you know , combine research action , because we need data . You have to document the phenomenon , to shock people saying this is a burden of corruption , how much it costs us every year corruption .
KeRight . And then we do investigations with journalists in an order to also wake up people once again . And then we build on advocacy , of course , because we also have to change the framework . For instance , extortion is not mentioned in the anti-corruption law in Madagascar , while it is a phenomenon who is ruining our society . The youngest victim of extortion we met is 11 years old . Can you believe that ? So , and yeah .
KeAnd then we build those movements , the small movements . It has to start from somewhere and our anti-corruption youth clubs are doing very well and more and more young people want to join . So it gives us hope , like everything is not wasted yet . Older generations , maybe , are already , you know , lost , but you young people seem to be , have a will , they are aspiring for better , because it's not our Malacasy people , you know , who can go abroad and and great into France or whatever , because powerful people do . They just escape that maze . But we have to clean up that mess and make our country a safer place for all of us . That's a big goal , that's a big dream , and we are also working with businesses , we are working with other CEOs and grassroots and doing this empowerment and doing joint advocacy together , and currently we have a campaign because we have presidential elections in November in my country and we are campaigning for clean elections .
KeYou know that in 2013 , one of the candidates spent 43 million dollars in his electoral campaign and it is known to be more than some of foreign president candidates 43 million dollars just for a campaign in one in the fifth poorest country in the world . That is Madagascar . It's insane . So , and you don't know where this money comes from . Some of them made a deal with Russia , for instance , so some Russian people came to the country and offering to sponsor candidates . It happens also . It happened in last elections in 2018 . So it's highly level corruption and it's also money laundering . So we are telling people vote for IDs , not for money , because those politicians , they are just making the most of our poverty . They know that people are hungry on a daily basis , so they are distributing cash , they are distributing one kilo of rice . So are you going to sell your future and the future of your children for just a cup of rice ? So we are trying to brainwash in a good sense . You know the voters like we deserve better .
KeWe've been doing this already for almost one year now , running around the country and telling everyone , and we still have a long way to go , because politicians are fighting back . Of course they feel that we are labeled as opposition party . Of course I don't care about that . And there is also the judicial harassment . Whistleblowers are not safe . Myself I'm facing criminal charges for blowing the whistle against corruption , for instance . I mean , it's not about me . It happens to a lot of people in the country and we have to unlock the civic space . We have to claim the space . It's ours . So people power has to be built in every you know trunk of our society Young people , women , scholars because they are also needed , you know , in documenting this phenomenon . And also if there are some clean politicians . I'm full of doubts regarding that , but we have to prepare a new generation of politicians who can commit to our common good . So all of these in the same .
Marie BerryNo kidding . I mean it's a lot , it's a lot , it's a massive , it's a massive challenge , but I see you breaking it apart and doing it in these concrete and clear ways .
KeAnd that's what it's going to take .
Marie BerryRight . What is your , what is your hope for the ? What is your kind of vision for the future ? What do you , what , what ? What does Madagascar look like in a hundred years , if you are to succeed in your work ?
KeOh , if I have to succeed , it's not only me , because I'm just a piece of the puzzle . You know , there are lots of people doing amazing things in Madagascar and really putting their lives at risk on a daily basis for making something better happen . If we do succeed in this movement , it won't take a hundred years . It will happen in 20 years maybe or sooner , because I think that everything is possible and the big change is possible if we have the will to and if we strategize in a good way for making it happen . So I'm just dreaming of a country , you know , where everybody can be happy happy in the sense of being able to enjoy even your basic rights and love it . People are monitored on Facebook . There was a guy in the street and the president and he's sued then passed and he Did a thump down .
Marie BerryHe was arrested for thumps down , yeah , as in its motorcade . Yeah , exactly , oh my gosh .
KeHe was arrested . So freedom of expression is a fundamental right . Yeah , we can't have it . Yeah , the the right to information act it's been 17 years now that we've been claiming for it to be adopted Doesn't exist . You know everything .
KeSo I'm just dreaming of a country where we can enjoy Fully our rights , when you can build the nation together , because for now , I think that people are just so Desperate , with a lot of anger and frustration within them . We are not happy , we are not having having a happy life that we deserve . So if we could make it possible having these fundamental rights , our children will have a better education , including civic education . Then we will raise young person and committed politicians to take care of all of this . We will clean up the system from corruption . That would be a paradise on earth , because we all have all the resources we don't need .
KeYou know if , if Madagascar was a true democracy and everything is working the way it should , we shouldn't rely on international aid , because that's we will auto sufficient , will be auto sufficient in all ways . That's a dream also , but now we are constantly , you know , we rely on an international aid because we can't do more than that . It's the only solution we have so . Even elections are always funded by the international community . Someday , maybe , we will have the means for finding our own elections . You know , it's also about self-determination . It is very important , I would like to , that Malagasy have this sense of belonging , that we are proud of our country , we are striving for our country . Our country is part of this whole world as well , because , yeah , so what are the ?
Marie Berrywhat are the values or commitments that you feel like are the most kind of core to your own work and your yeah ?
Keintegrity is the first thing , because without integrity , everything else will collapse . You have to do the right thing , even if no one watches you .
KeThat's just a principle Uh so yeah , and by doing a good thing , it's not not not being selfish as well . You're living in a community . Your community starts with your family , of course , but it's your soil , your neighborhood , it's your city and then your nation and the world . So Look beyond yourself . You are a piece of this whole puzzle . But if all the pieces get together , then the puzzle will look nice , the picture will be bright , so that's just to see .
KeSo integrity matters , yeah , and also this sense of just common good . Even it's our money , theoretically , which builds up a country . You are paying taxes for those who can , and we have to follow where the money goes , of course , but we have to have this sense of belonging and ownership of , we have and care for the common good . I do believe that we are all here on earth for a purpose . It's up to us to discover that purpose and mission , of course , but I think I do believe that it's always for a good purpose . It's us who get perverted on the pathway , you know , because of corruption , because of greed , because of this or that , but , and then we lose sight of this common good . But we have to focus back on that . So integrity , common good and social justice for me they go together .
Marie BerryYeah , I agree . Let's see what advice would you give other activists , either in Madagascar or elsewhere in the world , that are seeing these problems in their community and seeking to make a change ?
KeSo the first thing is not to lose hope . I know that it is a very hard battle and at some point we are just human beings . And even myself , for some time I'm like , geez , am I making a difference or not ? Am I ? I have four kids . I'm not making a lot of money , so Engagement is not , you know , rewarding , but it's . I'm passionate of it . But at some point I feel like I'm tired . Shouldn't I , shouldn't I do something else or fly elsewhere , escape this mess ? But then I feel the other day . So the one day I feel very low . When I woke up in the morning I feel re-energized , just because of small things . Looking at my kids , like just thinking of what kind of country do we want to live and to build for this generation ? That's the motivation , for me at least . So keep going , find that motivation , or new . I know that it is already with the new .
KeBut don't give up , because you know bad things and bad people we are just . They are just awaiting us to give up . But don't give them that chance . Don't surrender , never surrender . And then after that , learn , always learn , because Knowledge is infinite . Uh , we have plenty of resources . We have to remain creative in our fight .
KeSo document yourself , discover what other commitments organizations around the world are doing , how they strategize , and Adjust it to your country . Don't just do copy and past , because it it doesn't work . You have to to create your own flow , your own strategy . But document yourself . That's very , very important . Information and knowledge . They are power . You know it . So sustain that power in you and never forget . That would be the third advice . Never forget to engage people around you , because people Cannot all be part of a movement or of a grassroots association or a C so whatever , but at the place you work , at your church , at your school , wherever in the bus , spread the word about civil resistance . That's my advice , because it has to be to come very naturally . It's not a discipline , it's not a area of study or whatever . You have to leave it on a daily basis . So you have to build this from the roots
Civil Resistance Explained With Lychee Example
Ke.
Marie BerryIf you were sitting next to me on a bus and I didn't know what civil resistance was , how would you explain it to me ?
KeI would take an example , a very silly example . So we have those little red fruits in Madagascar lychee and the season for lychee starts from December to maybe May , no March and each time we have them I'm like tired already . Each time they appear they are sweet and lovely but you have to peel them . You have to peel them and people usually eat them on the bus . They peel them and throw up . You know the dust through the window , so it makes a huge dirty crap in the streets afterwards . So talking about civil resistance would be simple .
KeYou're sitting next to a person doing that . Tell that person first hey , you shouldn't do that , because our streets are getting dirty and our environment will be polluted . So you will be responsible of that . The person will argue , of course , but the thing to do in building people power is talking to the whole bus . You will find that people , some people , will support you and say yes , I do agree with you . It's very dirty and it has an impact on our health or people . You can bring back the plague . This is the case .
Marie BerryIs it ?
KeReally so . It's already a small society in that bus , and the first thing to do is to speak out against what is unjust . Speak out against any injustice or think it's not which is not good . Dare to speak out . That's the first thing as well , even if you are the only one among a thousand people there to speak up . You don't need a degree for that , you just need a bit of courage .
Marie BerryI love that you don't need a degree for that . You just need a bit of courage .
KeThat's it , yeah because we are all striving for something good . I don't know a single person aiming at seeing a lot of garbage in his streets no , so when you see something bad , do something about it immediately . Don't wait for others . Don't say , no , it's a mayor's task to clean up the streets . No , you can do something about it yourself and change your mindset and your behavior . Yeah , that's just it . So that's for me , a simple example of building people power . And you can do it everywhere , at every minute , every hour . I love that .
Marie BerryIf you want to learn more about Kay and her work , check out Transparency International Madagascar or publish what you pay pwyporg .
