Learn Law For All

Choosing the Right Family Law Attorney: Strategies for a Strong Attorney-Client Relationship

• Launi Sheldon and Guests

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Struggling to pick the right family law attorney for your divorce? Look no further. In our latest episode, Launi Sheldon talks with Angie Hallier, a family law attorney with thirty years under her belt, who shares her invaluable perspectives on building a strong attorney-client relationship. Angie lays down the law on what you should be asking prospective legal representatives, ensuring you find someone whose expertise and approach align with your needs, be it navigating the complexities of child custody or managing the costs of long-term litigation. We exchange war stories and wisdom, offering a behind-the-bench look at handling vengeful clients and recognizing when to call in co-counsel reinforcements.

Venture into the delicate terrain of client expectations and the art of maintaining professional decorum. Angie and I dissect the dance of diplomacy in the courtroom, from granting professional courtesies to opposing counsel to managing clients who aim to call every shot. We also explore the ethical tightropes walked by lawyers and share tactics for steering clients away from fruitless legal battles. For a deep dive into the ethical and communication strategies that fortify the attorney-client relationship, Angie's Continuing Legal Education class is just a click away at LearnLawForAll.com. Tune in for a candid, insightful conversation that will leave you better equipped for the legal challenges that lie ahead.

You can reach Angie Hallier at:
http://www.HallierLaw.com
Angies Book - The Wiser Divorce
https://amzn.to/4acr7zg

You can reach Launi Sheldon at:
Launi@LearnLawForAll.com
Launi's Books:
Custody Evaluation Prep
https://amzn.to/3ThKfVK

Controlling Your Divorce
https://amzn.to/48Ri6L4

Deposition Prep
https://amzn.to/43eMjCw

Mediation Prep
https://amzn.to/4ccxB36

Launi :

Hi, I'm Launi with Learn Law for All and today we have Angie Hallier with us. Welcome Angie, hello Launi, so thank you for being here. A little bit about Angie is. You know. Angie's really inspired to help clients not only navigate the process of divorce but to envision and plan for a positive future after the divorce. And after 30 years of being a family law attorney, she really knows that what you say, what you do, how you think about your divorce can significantly impact the outcome and your life thereafter. In fact, she even wrote a book about this, which will be the link will be attached to the description. It is called hold on The Wiser Divorce, so check that out on Amazon. She's got some really great hints and tips in there. She has a really direct communication style and an uplifting sense of humor. She's really hysterical, but she's also got really great superior skills for litigation and settlement. So if you have any questions for Angie, feel free to reach out to her. Her contact information will also be in the description.

Launi :

Again, as usual, this does not. Watching, listening to this does not create an attorney-client relationship. This is for entertainment purposes only. We're both only licensed in Arizona, so take that to heart. But what we're going to talk about today I think is useful throughout different jurisdictions. Just talk to attorneys in your jurisdiction. So welcome, angie. Hello, let's go Okay. So today, yeah, sorry. Today we are talking about the attorney-client relationship and kind of how to maneuver that and work through that. So I've got some questions for Angie that I wanted her to answer. We just did a CLD on this, so it'll be much more thorough there. But just for the podcast purposes, angie, do you have any recommendations for both attorneys and non-attorneys for how they can decide if they're a good fit for each other, and are there good questions to ask?

Angie:

Well, yes, let's start with the client who's coming to find an attorney. They should make a list of questions in advance. How much do you? These are basic. How much do you charge? Who will be working on my case? Will more than one person be working on my case? How is it best to communicate with you? How do I? If there's an emergency, who can I reach out to? Those are all good things to know. I even had a client once ask me when I was going to retire because they had small children and they believed there could be litigation as the children aged and he didn't want to have to change attorneys If he hired me and I aged out and his kids were still minors. So I mean whatever is important to you, particularly as the client, maybe it's will you talk to my family? Can my family be on the phone? I mean whatever it is that's important that you want to know, write it down and ask.

Angie:

But as an attorney, you should be prepared to assess the client, determine if they're the right fit for you. I mean, can you handle their personality style? You sometimes have to adapt and change your own personality to match that of the person you're representing and help them out? Can they pay you? Do you have the qualifications to handle this case they've brought to you? Maybe it's just too over your head, maybe you don't have the experience, maybe you want to co-counsel with someone. If they can't afford you, can they afford to hire you only, or can they afford the whole entire case? Those are things you want to look at. You want to look at how will you interact with them best?

Angie:

Just like I said, is it email? Is it in person? Is it telephone calls? And just, is this a fit? Do you feel a fit? You know, I've had, you probably have two, I've had those clients and the first time you meet them you just go. Our personalities are so different. This is not going to work. It's not going to be best for them and it's not going to be best for me. It happened not long ago to me. I just had this feeling that my direct communication style and my happiness was not going to work. Ask yourself that Don't take a client on. You can't handle, you don't have the experience that you cost too much for and that you don't have the staff to be responsive to.

Launi :

Yeah, and I do want to add to that because I've had a client. I had a client come up one time who came to me from my church, and so I always feel very comfortable when I have that. But this person was really after revenge and very, very not nice and we had to end it immediately. But I said I'm not going to do A, b, c, d and E because that's not who I am as an attorney. You need a different attorney If somebody wants you to be vengeful. That's just not my style of being an attorney. I want to get the people through it with as little pain as possible.

Angie:

I mean they always say if you want revenge, dig two graves. So I mean it never gets you anywhere, and that's just not me. Part of the revengers, part of their issues, it seems, is they can't own their own responsibility for what happened. It always has to be someone else, and that's a personality issue that can be very hard to deal with. If that's not who you are, that the person who blames everybody else for their problems because they're going to blame you too.

Launi :

Right. And then I have had also the case where it was over my head and I did have to bring in another attorney. As a young attorney it was before same sex marriages were allowed, it was a two moms thing and there were a lot of new laws that were being made in Arizona and they were. I just didn't have the expertise that. I think that the case needed and I think there's really times where you bring in another attorney.

Angie:

That's because you're such a good attorney that you knew that that self-awareness is something to have Right and smart of you. But also, if you bring in another attorney, then as a young attorney you learn, because part of it is you get to have that experience of learning and being tutored and mentored in a case where you can probably do a lot of this stuff, but you just don't have it. And that goes back to the reputation that you and I have talked about. I mean, every case you have you're creating a reputation and when you take on a case that is just above your head and it becomes clear I have cases where I mean people the other side will file a motion asking for something that isn't even allowed under the law. It is so blatantly inappropriate and the judge doesn't even have the jurisdiction to grant what you're asking for and it just reflects so poorly because then I'm forming this opinion of you because you took a case you either didn't research enough or you weren't prepared for and that will always be.

Angie:

My image of you, of that attorney, was that they didn't know what they're doing and our reputations is how we get cases and grow and earn our income yeah and I actually loved that case that was.

Launi :

That's still one of what I almost call my career case. I met some really great friends attorneys on the other side, even experts that were on the other side and involved and I thought it was a really interesting case and I'm thankful for it. But I'm very, very, very thankful that I brought in another attorney because it was way over my head. Well, I was just gonna.

Angie:

oh sorry, I was just gonna say, on the experts.

Angie:

You know that's another thing when you're interviewing the attorney or if you're the attorney being interviewed is what experts will be needed, because often in our cases we need those experts. Sometimes they're experts. You know, I had to get an expert once on Sharia law to win a case. I mean sometimes you need because of where one of the parties wanted to take the kids and how we would get them back if they went. And so I mean different cases pose different questions, require different experts, and those are all really important things to be able to discuss with your client upfront or discuss with your attorney when you're interviewing them.

Launi :

Yeah, that's a really great point in being prepared and asking those questions. Do you have any advice for an attorney if they have a client with a mental health issue or substance abuse issue? Besides, I mean, I guess jump ship right, but besides that one, what can you do, right?

Angie:

So I mean I've had a case where I asked to speak to the psychiatrist that was treating the client because I had concerns about her ability to understand things, and we came up with a way that, with the psychiatrist help and she consented to him knowing you, know enough information to help her navigate it that we were going to be able to do it. But on the other hand, I've had clients who dreadfully need some kind of therapeutic intervention and if they don't get it, you just can't work with them. I mean, sometimes to the point, depending on the ethics in your state, you have to ask for a guardian to be appointed and other clients will take your advice. I mean, if you've done divorce law long enough, you know, I hope, the difference between someone who's in trauma and someone who has an addiction issue or a serious psychiatric issue. You can encourage your client I've done this to go to a therapist or a psychiatrist to get auxiliary help while they're going through the divorce.

Angie:

And it's a little different, I think, with addiction because you you know emotional related issues, psychiatric related issues there's. You can medicate, you can work on, you can go to a weekly session. If you're an addict. It's really either quit or I can't help you, right? I mean, you can certainly ask the court to pause the case, but in our world with children often and work, if you can't get it together, we just can't help you, which is sad. But I think there's a lot of people I've worked with who have gone to rehab, who have gotten clean, who've decided that their children are important enough that they're gonna clean up their act.

Launi :

You know and I think that actually goes back to in the CLE we were talking about you had said set goals for your clients and I think, once you set that goal, look, if your goal is to get the kids 50, 50, get the kids back, have them 100% of the time. Whatever that goal is, you know this is what you're going to have to clean up your act. You're going to have to stop the substance abuse or whatever it is.

Angie:

You're right, and the other side of that we talked about was expectations. So on the flip side, sorry, dear, but you can expect you will not see your children unsupervised if you don't clean up, right, right.

Launi :

So I know we also talked about this, but do you have any tricks to get people to stop micromanaging their cases, cause I know that can be a?

Angie:

lot, yeah, and I think you have to differentiate between the person who just wants to be more in the know about their case than the person who's micromanaging. You know there's some people who want to read every letter and every pleading before it goes out, and that's fine. Not all clients need to do that, some just trust me to do that, but some want to see all that before they go out. But that's not as the micromanaging that potentially leads you to just throw up your hands and say I can't help you. That micromanaging comes in forms of when you're gonna talk to the other attorney. What are you gonna say to the other attorney? Maybe you should say it like this to the other attorney I don't know that I wanna do this right now, even though something needs to be done right now.

Angie:

It's that constant, constant judgment of what you're doing and the you know, if we're doctors, we don't necessarily try to micromanage everything our doctor did, because you can't right. A lot of our stuff is instinctual. Same with doctors. We have instincts about what's gonna work and what's not gonna work, based on our experience and lives. And sometimes that micromanaging feels like a noose, it feels like I can't do my job.

Angie:

So I have explained that to clients and I've actually had conversations where I said we have to talk about this because what you're doing, what you hired me to do, you're not letting me do All of my strategy and instinct and action I wanna take. You're stymying because you want control over how this all goes down and it's not gonna turn out well. So I always think honesty is the best policy for everything. So I've just said that. So that's what I can say. Clients, just to micromanage you just have to talk to them because at some point you can't do it, at some point you feel like you're not doing your job. And they're paying you for your expertise. All those years that for me at least 30 some years now all those years that I've been doing divorces, seeing the outcome, seeing how actions during the divorce impact the outcome, all of that you're paying me for, but you don't want me to do it.

Launi :

Yeah, and I think I've had that on more than one occasion too. Now, one of the things that we get sometimes is where, say, the opposing counsel has a medical issue and so they want to continue and it's a professional courtesy to go okay, let's continue, and you have a client who's no. What are your thoughts on that? Like, do you just talk to an armor, right? Well, I just tell my client that I'm.

Angie:

I mean, that's sometimes where I draw the line right. First of all, the judge is going to continue a hearing. If the other person, the other attorney's in the hospital, it's gonna happen. So I am not again, reputation, reputation, reputation. I'm not going to be the obstructionistic attorney who won't agree or give the professional courtesy to another member of the community in which I practice. I'm not gonna not give them that courtesy because there's going to be a time when I need the courtesy. So you know, if my client, the best you can do sometimes is tell the other attorney I'm unable to say I agree but I won't object. But even that I don't like. I've had the mostly. Usually I can talk my clients into just agreeing because I tell them it's going to happen and they'll probably get assessed fees if they object.

Launi :

Yeah, you do. You're one of the attorneys out there that really has some typically good client control. I think, because you're so direct and open with them from the very beginning, that they respect your opinion. You know what I mean.

Angie:

Thank you. Yeah, I hope that's the way it is. I work hard to do that.

Launi :

Now, if you've got a client who's just being unreasonable and wants you to file something else, you know that you don't think that you should file what do you do with that?

Angie:

Well, if I don't think I should file it, it's probably it's gonna be one of two things I ethically don't feel I can file it, or I don't have a legal basis for filing it, which is also ethical, so I'm not gonna file something I'm not comfortable filing period. End of story. I won't do that Now. Maybe the client? Sometimes you have to talk it through, though, because sometimes what the client wants you to file can be accomplished another way and they don't even really know what they're asking you to file. They don't know the laws. So sometimes you have to just sit and have that patience to break it down with the client and talk about why we can't file this, we shouldn't file this, or it's a horrible strategy to file. There's lines we have to draw.

Launi :

That's one of the lines I draw, yeah, and kind of maybe what is it that you're really trying to get out of this, and maybe there's another way. Maybe we talk to opposing counsel, maybe we have a short mediation on this one issue, just to get that resolved. Is that kind of something you use?

Angie:

Right right, because there's other ways to achieve the goals. And often you go back to those goals that you've said at the beginning with your client. Okay, you told me, these are your top five goals. What you wanna do is not going to achieve those top five goals. In fact it's gonna hurt it. So sometimes you just have to slow down, go back, remind them what they want, remind them what they can expect, remind them of the strategy agreed upon, remind them of your professional stature and then redirect them, and often that works. Sometimes it just takes more time, and one of the things I just really can't stand is the attorneys who I know are just filing things because their client told them to. I mean, it's just so obstructionistic and unprofessional.

Launi :

Well, and sometimes you can even you look at them and you're like I'm sure an attorney did not write that, Right, Right.

Angie:

The client has written it. It's just the spitting. They're just vomiting what their client said. It's so obvious. You're right. There are times I go, wow yeah, they just cut and pasted.

Launi :

Well, angie. Thank you so much for being with us here today. I just for anyone who's listening. We did do a continuing legal education class on the relationships between attorneys and clients. Angie did a great job, so it is at LearnLawForAllcom. Angie, thank you again for being here. You're welcome. Have a great day, thanks.