Learn Law For All

Navigating Co-Parenting Challenges with Therapeutic Intervention: Insights from Dr. Kollette Butler

• Launi Sheldon and Guests

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When navigating the stormy waters of co-parenting post-divorce, the guidance of a Therapeutic Interventionist (TI) can be the lighthouse guiding families to safer shores. That's why I sought out the wisdom of Dr. Kolette Butler, a veritable expert with a PsyD and JD, to illuminate the lesser-known intricacies of TIs in co-parenting scenarios. As we traverse the sensitive terrain of children resistant to parental contact, Dr. Butler shares her profound insights into the judicially driven process that prioritizes the child's best interest, even when emotions run high and allegations cast shadows.

Amidst the tangle of legal and psychological strands, our conversation also turns inward to the nuances of fostering independence in children grappling with separation anxiety. I offer a glimpse into my personal journey through this challenge, which echoes the experiences of many listeners. Dr. Butler's expertise shines as we discuss the delicate balance of nurturing resilience and self-advocacy in young ones. For those intrigued by this discourse, we're excited to offer a CLE course to continue exploring these vital themes.

You can reach Dr. Kolette Butler at:
https://verdanthope.com/

You can reach Launi Sheldon at:
Launi@LearnLawForAll.com

Launi:

Yeah, hi, I'm Launi Sheldon with Learn Law for All, and today we have Dr Kolette Butler and, I guess, juris Doctor also. We're not allowed to attorney, is not allowed to call ourselves doctors, to stop the confusion. But she is a PsyD and a JD, so she's a doctor. Doctor, Kolette, thank you so much for being here. Thank you. So a little bit about Kolette's background and today we're going to be talking about TI work, that's therapeutic intervention stuff. But her background is that she does have her Juris Doctor, she does have her PsyD and she works with families and couples, individuals with trauma, teens and adults with emotional issues, self-esteem, depression, suicide, suicidality I never can say that word right. And she has done training in EMDR, which again I talked to you before. I think we really want to do something on EMDR and the DVT, especially in co-parenting, because that would be so helpful for so so many, probably so many of like me too, you know, anyone who's just sort of stuck in their way of thinking sometimes. So Dr Butler is committed to the growth of her clients and really helping the community, the legal community, also the mental health community and her, her forensic expertise includes psychological evaluations and interventions for the court. So again, welcome.

Launi:

As a disclaimer, watching these videos does not create an attorney-client privilege with me or a doctor-patient relationship or attorney-client privilege with Kolette. This is for information and entertainment purposes only. So take with it, you know, take from it what you will, but thank you again for being here. So, yeah, yeah, Kolette, I have so many questions for you. I have so so many questions for you and I know we're not going to get to all of them today, but I do want to ask. Let's start out with just something simple what is a TI? What's the therapeutic interventionist?

Dr. Butler:

So in Arizona, therapeutic interventionist is a court appointed role, typically where there is resist refuse dynamics happening between a child and a parent and the court will appoint a therapeutic interventionist to come in and facilitate reunification. In other jurisdictions it's often called a reunification specialist.

Launi:

Okay. So why do we need this? Why do people need a TI? What kind of person would need a TI?

Dr. Butler:

Often what happens is a parent will bring a petition in front of the court to have the court enforce parenting time, typically because a child has been resisting, or perhaps the parent believes the other parent has been keeping a child from them, they'll move for the court to enforce their parenting time. Often in that setting the parent who has primary physical custody of the child might allege well, this will cause major anxiety for the child. If we do this, they need some support. Then the judge will bring in a therapeutic interventionist to help ease or facilitate that reconnection or beginning the parenting time, just to help. Sometimes there's a specific incident that led to the resist refuse. A therapeutic interventionist can oversee an apology and reparation of that specific incident that might have driven a wedge in between a parent and child.

Launi:

That's interesting. Is it like family therapy? Is it like a therapy for the parents and the child together?

Dr. Butler:

It is not family therapy. That is probably the number one thing that parents say to me. Is they really thought the TI process was going to be family therapy or they really thought it was going to give this child and the other parent a chance to heal their relationship? It really is not that it is a judicial process. Your TI is essentially an arm of the court. They're in a quasi-judicial role as your TI and they are really just following the marching orders that were outlined by the court. It is not a warm and fuzzy process. It is much more a legal process.

Launi:

That's interesting, because it is hard for people to comprehend that that it's not just going to be a warm and fuzzy thing. Are you typically ordered by the court to do it, or can people come to you? Or even if you're not doing it, can people come to a therapeutic interventionist without court intervention?

Dr. Butler:

For the role of a therapeutic interventionist that is court-appointed. A family can come outside of the court process to work on resist refuse. I've recently had some families approach me outside of the court process who know that there are some resist refuse dynamics. But they also know like they've done the court thing, they've done the TI thing, they've done the PC and they're tired of it and they don't want to do it. They know that the litigation can really exacerbate the conflict in their family. They have come to me outside of the court process to try to work on reunification or increasing their co-parenting ability just on their own. The progress that I've seen with those families has been much smoother, much faster than when I work in a court-appointed role. If you can get your co-parent on board and you can seek family therapy, I really recommend that.

Launi:

Yeah, I know, as a divorced person, I know it's hard. It would take an awful lot for me to want to go to family therapy with my ex-husband. I mean, it's like how many times do I have to divorce them? And I know I'm not alone in that thought. But I think you got to do it for your kids. This is about the kids and this is not about you as a parent. This is about what's in the best interest of the kids and sometimes you got to suck it up, yeah. So let's also talk about how do you sort of how do you reconcile sending a child with a parent that the child is adamant, maybe, that they don't want to go with that parent, or if that parent has some we're going to call it parenting style deficits? I think is the word that you'd use. How do you say go?

Dr. Butler:

Yeah. So sometimes a therapeutic interventionist or reunification specialist becomes involved when one parent is asserting that there are parental fitness issues at play and maybe there were allegations of abuse or something like that. And so you know, as a TI, I'm also a human being, I'm also a psychologist who cares a lot about kids, and you know it's this idea of well, how do we, how do we require a child to go spend time with a parent who may be really harsh in their parenting style? Maybe it doesn't rise to the level of involving child welfare services, but that parent is really unpolished in the way that they interact with their child or they're really harsh. And so a way that I think about it is a couple of things.

Dr. Butler:

Number one if you know that your co-parent has parenting skill deficits, the kindest thing that you can do for your child is help your child behave in a way that is going to reduce the distress of your co-parent. And I know that may sound really backwards, but like, think about it. Like you're sending your child over to another person's home who you know has a hard time managing themselves and they may take it out on the child. Well then, helping that child learn how to clear off the table, how to put their dishes in the dishwasher, helping them learn how to manage their voice and the volume of their voice, or learning how to manage their behavior or how to regulate All of those things. A are going to be beneficial to your child, but B are going to help reduce the stress of your co-parent and that ultimately reduces the pressure on your child.

Launi:

So I know it's a little bit of a scare. I know I have to butt in here because it's almost like you know, I remember somebody told me a terrible joke one time and I was a guy I had gone out with and I just I never went out with him again because it's a terrible joke. He's like why did the woman have two black eyes? Because she didn't listen the first time, you know, and it's all right, right. So it's almost like that to me. It's like you're almost putting the victim, making the victim have the duty to protect themselves.

Launi:

On the other hand, I also see it as I know I'm probably gonna get backlash for this too when we talk about women who are dressing a certain way and they're getting hit on and you're like she should be able to dress however she wants her, she should be able to walk wherever she wants at night and three in the morning half dressed. Yeah, she should be able to, but the situation is such that she can't right, and so I think that's sort of what you're saying. Yeah, the kid shouldn't be afraid of a parent, but the situation is such that the kid has to go to the parents right now and let's teach the kid to be to stress out the other parent as little as possible. Is that sort of?

Dr. Butler:

Yes yeah. It really if parents can resist getting caught up in this idea of whose fault is it and focus more on how do I do what will help my child the most? Because the research is so robust around kids in high conflict divorce situations. They are at maximum risk for mental health disorders, for eating disorders, for substance abuse, for promiscuity. Right Like these kids are some of the highest risk kids in the world. Not just this isn't just a problem in the United States in the world right, and so it's about okay.

Dr. Butler:

Regardless of the kind of parent that my co-parent is, how do I help my kid have the best possible experience over there?

Dr. Butler:

And sometimes that means behaving in a way that will not stress out the co-parent. Another way that I frame it is it is an important developmental task for kids to learn how to self-regulate, how to regulate their own emotions, how to soothe themselves when they are in distress right, and it is not actually good parenting, in my opinion, to stunt your child's growth by protecting them from any situation that stresses them out and I know I'm speaking really broadly there. But it is about okay. Nobody wants their kid to be stressed out or have emotional distress caused by a family member, and sometimes that is what happens in families, right?

Dr. Butler:

And so then it's like how do we help this child onboard the skills that they will need to stand up and advocate for themselves in a skillful way, to soothe themselves when things are not going well, to regulate their own emotions? Right, because all of those things are going to be really important developmental tasks. When they are confronting a teacher that they disagree with or a boss that they disagree with, or, down the road, their own romantic partner like, how do they manage themselves in the face of someone else behaving unskillfully? And you can help your child learn that. I maybe want to pause there because I have the urge to kind of go off on another tangent, but let me just pause there.

Launi:

Well, you know, I mean, I appreciate that so much and I think maybe we should have another podcast or even a CLE on and we might be past the scope of a CLE and really just helping parents. But I sure would have loved someone to come in and say, here's a bunch of tips on how you can help your kids handle difficult situations, and Instead I sent them to counseling, which I think they've got some really great tips and they learned a lot of really great things. But you know, not everyone can afford counseling and, you know, be really great to sort of get some of those tips like like what can help my child Learn to learn to handle, you know, events that they're not really happy about, or Actions that they're not really happy about, or behaviors that they're not really happy about. I think that it's. You know, I agree a hundred percent.

Launi:

I think we need to train our kids better so that they don't have to, you know, have a mental breakdown or anxiety Because of you know they don't know how to handle something and I don't know if that's why we have so much anxiety in this world right now. I know I sheltered the crap out of my kids. You know, you try right and I'm Probably wrongfully. I think we just try and we try and shelter them and help them have happy lives, and when they've got a difficult thing, you just want to jump in there and help, sure, yeah, so maybe we can have a whole, a Whole podcast on on some tips on you know, yeah, how to give your kids tools.

Dr. Butler:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Butler:

I think that that is probably widely needed.

Dr. Butler:

One other kind of myth that often Parents will enter into the TI process with is an idea that if their child Really clings to them or is in a lot of distress when they're separated from them, it's because the bond between them and their child is so robust.

Dr. Butler:

And there is actually some data that Refutes that, or at least some literature that refutes that idea. In fact, the more secure a child is in their relationship with you, the more willing they are to go, take risks or, in other words, enter into Anxiety provoking situations because they know they've got a safe place to come back to. If you've got a child who has a really hard time leaving your side, they may feel some uncertainty about their connection with you or their relationship with you, or they may be picking up on your anxieties. And again, like I'm not saying that this is true across the board, but it is something to consider because a lot of parents will come in Essentially saying like we're so close, look, my child, you know, doesn't even want to leave my side. Well, that that actually can be indicative of a problem rather than Reflection of the quality of relationship you have.

Launi:

Yeah, you know, and I I know in divorce. One time my kids asked me they're like well, what do you do when we're gone? As if I was sitting home pouting and whining all day while they were gone.

Launi:

I'm like you know I go to go see grown-up movies that you guys wouldn't like. I go meet my friends for Happy hour or dinner or I go hiking on weekends. I go out of. You know I might go out of town for a week. Where do you go? You know, and I think when I gave them that information I think it was helpful. Like I'm not sitting home pining over you. I love you very much, but I know you have a good, safe place to go and you'll be fine over there and your dad's gotcha, and so I get to do grown-up things during this, my five days off or my weekend or whatever. So it's kind of interesting. So same kind of theory, I think, is when you gotta let them also believe that you don't rely on them for your happiness.

Dr. Butler:

Yeah, and then also don't rely on them for your happiness, yeah.

Launi:

Both. Not just don't let them think that, but also don't do it.

Dr. Butler:

Right, right, so and it may sound like we're kind of off target here, but all of these are issues that come out in the TI process. I've heard all of these things in the context of the TI process, and so, if you have a little bit of an idea about some of these before you get into the TI process, or if you're an attorney watching this, even bringing some of this up with your client, like these are different ways to look at a problem or a challenge. And it's really about how do we help kids be resilient and face anxieties, even if that anxiety is spending time with a family member. How do we teach them how to stand up for themselves in a way that they respect? Right? Kids are very much in that process of standing up to peers or disagreeing with teachers or different things like that, and how can they do that without being really unkind or without disappearing and not saying anything, and this can be a space where they're learning those skills too.

Launi:

Yeah, who knows, I might have to cut out some of my other stuff because I think I know I went on my little rant that probably had nothing to do with TI work, but I might have to do some editing. But thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. And just for everyone, just so that you know, we did just record a CLE that will be available, or that should be available, I guess, now by the time you're watching this. So thank you again for that and if anyone needs to reach out to either of us, our information will be listed in the description part of our podcast. Thanks, Launi. Thank you very much, Kolette.