Learn Law For All

Mastering the Art of Active Listening in Legal Practice with Dr. Ellie Izzo

• Launi Sheldon and Guests

Share episode

Unlock the secrets of active listening with Dr. Ellie Izzo, our esteemed guest on the Learn Law for All podcast. As a leading expert in vicarious trauma and co-founder of two esteemed institutes, Dr. Izzo enlightens us on the transformative power of effectively managing emotions to achieve clear, rational communication. Our conversation reveals how legal professionals can excel in their practices by deploying practical strategies to navigate anger and set boundaries, even in the most high-conflict situations. I share my own reflections on the journey to becoming a more attentive listener, confident that Dr. Izzo's insights will resonate deeply with our audience.

Gratitude permeates this episode as we extend a wholehearted thanks to Dr. Izzo for her invaluable contribution to a Continuing Legal Education session. Embrace the opportunity to enhance your listening skills and communication acumen by visiting the Learn Law For All website, where you can access the full educational video. The anticipation of Dr. Izzo's future return to our show is as palpable as the practical wisdom she shares, making this an episode that promises to be as enriching as it is enlightening for our listeners.

You can reach Ellie Izzo at: https://docellie.com/
You can reach Launi Sheldon at: Launi@LearnLawForAll.com

Launi Sheldon:

Hi and welcome to Learn Law for All podcast. Today we are here with Dr Ellie Izzo. Hi, hi, how are you Good? Thank you for being here. Thank you for asking me. So Dr Izzo is a mental health professional. She has worked in vicarious trauma, a lot of different areas. She has written a few books, books which we're going to link the um, the links down here but she's most known for her novel approach to managing emotions, improving decision making. She co-founded the vicarious trauma institute, uh, the collaborative divorce institute, uh. She's known for her rapid advance process. There's so much about her. She's written several books Secondhand Shock, the Bridge to I Am, the Just Stop series, which I think is at three books, and so she's great. And she's going to be talking to us today about the art of listening, which we just did a CLE on this and it was incredible. I was so enthralled in the CLE that I didn't even take notes on it because I was just too busy listening, which I guess was a good thing, since we were doing it on listening.

Ellie Izzo:

So yeah, it was really a great.

Launi Sheldon:

CLE. I recommend it. It's an ethics CLE, but, as usual, this podcast is for informational purposes Only. Listening to this podcast does not create an attorney-client relationship with the listener and me, nor does it create a patient relationship with Dr Izzo and the listener. This, again, is for informational purposes only. It's just meant to give general information and I'm only licensed in Arizona, so keep all that in mind as you listen. Dr Izzo, you know we talked about some questions that I wanted to ask you. Again, thank you so much for being here. Um let's talk about, let's talk about listening. So how do which I thought this was very interesting how do emotions, um affect someone's ability to listen?

Ellie Izzo:

well.

Ellie Izzo:

You know our when people are in a legal situation and um, or in a, let's say, for example, a divorce case or a conflict of any kind, it could be a legal situation and many of the people who take your courses that you offer are legal professionals and the ancillary, the collateral professionals that work with them.

Ellie Izzo:

But when people are in a high stress situation or a high conflict situation, they experience some very intense negative emotions and physiologically this affects our brain and our body, every cell of our body. It becomes a molecular thing and there's our negative emotions end up, ultimately coursing through the right side of our brain and our cerebral cortex and the rational part of our brain which is in the left hemisphere. The left brain gets flooded by the transfer of these negative emotions and so the ability to stay rational, irrational, present, verbal, linear diminishes with the flooding of negative emotions across to the left-hand part of the brain. So learning the art of listening and keeping your peace, your sense of peace, while you're hearing information, some of it which may not make you happy, some of it which may trigger your emotional state, becoming a good listener really requires the ability to control the negative emotions that are associated with the subject.

Launi Sheldon:

Now I know we didn't talk about this we actually didn't talk about it in the CLE because, again, I was just so busy listening. But I wonder are there any tips that you can give attorneys or really anyone to help someone who's maybe angry? Kind of bring it in so that they can listen.

Ellie Izzo:

Yes. So one of the first commandments of intense negative emotions is anger is always about the one who feels it. So the fact that opposing counsel is giving you a hard time, that your ex-husband won't let you stay in the house, you know, whatever the issue, someone's suing you because your car rear-ended them. Whatever the situation may be, you feel angry about it. That's fine. It's your anger. Darn it, you get to have it. However, your anger is your responsibility.

Ellie Izzo:

That opposing counsel is rude, that's about him or her. You're angry about it. That part's about you. If your ex is being mean, rude, unkind, that's about him. Your anger about it is about you. So being able to identify that you're in a feeling state and you're responsible for what you feel it's okay that you feel it, but you're responsible for it now really helps you to become a better listener, because your brain isn't in the mindset of blaming, accusing or judging the other person who's talking to you. Your mind is able to receive what the person is saying because you have the ability to navigate. You're upset about what they're saying and you're ready to do that.

Launi Sheldon:

So if, say, opposing counsel is really kind of acting crazy and it feels like I'm not being heard, do I just stop communicating at that time and say let's do it another time, when it's you know, it's not so crazy, I mean, I don't know. That's a beautiful question.

Ellie Izzo:

That is a perfect question you've asked me Because the question you've asked me is really about how do I set boundaries when someone you know is arrogant or you know they're coming on strong or whatever. So there's a little line I like to use that I coach people, professionals to say you know I'm having a reaction and I need to take a risk with you. I can see that you're very passionate about this issue and I think you're coming across very angrily and I'm noticing with your anger. It's hard for me to stay present to hear what you're saying. I really want to hear what you're saying. It's important to me. So I'm requesting you take it down a little bit so I'm able to stand here and totally hear, totally listen to what it is you want to tell me.

Launi Sheldon:

I love that so much. I mean, I'm glad I'm not litigating anymore. Probably don't need to use it very often but I love that so much. I wish that I had done this with you earlier. So what are let's talk about the actual steps in listening Like, are there steps?

Ellie Izzo:

Yes, there are. So the when you're going to be the listener in a communication and someone else is going to be the speaker, you're taking the responsibility of listening. That means I'm making a commitment to open my mind to what you have to say. You may see it differently, but I want to make sure I hear what you have to say. So the first step would be attending to the person, listening to everything they say. What a lot of humans do. They start to immediately create their retort, their rebuttal, and now their ability to listen to the content is already starting to diminish. Don't do that. Stay in position one on, just attending to what you have to say.

Ellie Izzo:

Step two acknowledge. You then repeat what you heard the person say. After you repeat it, you say did I get that right? The communicator will either say yay or nay. If they say yay, then you can go to the next step and say is there more?

Ellie Izzo:

If they say no, you didn't get it right or you didn't get it all, you have to go back to step number one and be attentive again and say, okay, tell me again. And so you go back and forth between attending and acknowledging till the speaker tells you yes, you got it right. And then you can once you've done that a bunch of times and you got the whole communication you can summarize what you heard the person say. That's the third step. And then the last step is you ask now if it's okay for you to respond to it, where now you're going to give your perspective and your point of view. But notice, before you come back with your point of view, there's four or five other steps you're supposed to be taking prior to that. A lot of times people want to give their point of view right after step one.

Launi Sheldon:

That's not listening um, so kind of, and just like I would have a hard time picturing that in um like a back and forth with an opposing counsel like I, I don't. It seems like those steps would be um, well, I think it'd be one-sided, probably, unless everybody watches this and your cle, um, I think that's probably not the normal way, right that people communicate.

Ellie Izzo:

Well, when we coach them, when we coach them, we help them to practice this method, and then you get to do it more fluidly, more quickly and more adeptly.

Launi Sheldon:

But I think that was my, that was my, that was my question. I think it sort of flows more afterwards, right?

Ellie Izzo:

So once you get adept at it, you'll say something like I really want to hear what it is you have to say. So please tell me what it is, and then I'm going to repeat it to you, just to make sure I got it right, is that OK? And then they'll say it, and then you can give them a synopsis. So you think this, this and this. Did I get that right? Yes, ok. Well, this is the way I see it. I respect what you're telling me. I happen to see it a little bit differently. So now what you've done is you've made an amalgam of those four or five steps. It has a lot more fluidity to it, but it's hard to get there if you don't practice each individual step on your own on the front end.

Launi Sheldon:

Yeah, I think that that's great advice. I think even you know, besides, just in the professional realm, clearly, for personal relationships, where you know, especially with spouses, sometimes that can you know, you hear what you want to hear. Oftentimes you hear what you're thinking, that they said, when they didn't say anything like that.

Ellie Izzo:

That's right.

Launi Sheldon:

Your definition of a word is different.

Ellie Izzo:

So you're really upset with me that I didn't pay the electric bill last month. Did I get that right? Yeah, you did. Well, I can respect the fact that you month. Did I get that right? Yeah, you did, okay. Well, I can respect the fact that you're pissed off about that. You know, I spaced it out, I've been very anxious and I completely forgot. I'll pay it tonight, is that okay?

Launi Sheldon:

you know what I love about that. That's something that I've always, always thought was a great, great idea that I try and do. Look, if you screw up, admit that you screwed up, because it stops the fight, right, I mean why I used to say this about Clinton back in the day. It's like just admit it and it'll go away. Right, the whole, the whole kick the poodle will go away. Just admit you screwed up.

Ellie Izzo:

And you're done. Back in the day, when I was seeing too many clients way too many clients there were sometimes I double booked myself and I would open up the door to the waiting room and there'd be three people sitting in the chair in the waiting room. What else could I do? I would look in them and go, wow, did I screw up? I am so sorry, what I? Your time is valuable. Let me try to make this up to you and we'll work it out. And then, when I would present it that way, will you forgive me, I'm so sorry. Oh, don't worry about it, I would. I would always get a very forgiving response from people and a very patient response from people.

Launi Sheldon:

Wow, I really screwed up. Yeah, a hundred percent. When you take responsibility for your junk, your accents, your screw ups, I just, it just disappears. So what are they going to keep saying you screwed up? And you're going to keep going I know, I did Right. I mean it's. I didn't want to screw up. I made an error, I'm not perfect. I apologize profusely, this is 100% my fault. Then they can't say anything else. What's?

Ellie Izzo:

so good about practicing. Something like that is the person is practicing taking responsibility and once you practice taking responsibility, you immediately become a better listener, a better speaker and you're more present all the way around. And you become a more confident person because you know you're not perfect and you don't have to be defensive half the time.

Launi Sheldon:

Right and I, you know, when you it's interesting this is kind of one of the things I teach my clients is the mama bear thing. It's interesting this is kind of one of the things I teach my clients is the mama bear thing. You know, if you go in defending and defending like a mama bear, nobody wants to get involved with that. People are going to get defensive. They're not going to want to protect you, they're not going to want to necessarily be kind to you. But if you go in as like an injured baby bear, you know, and you're apologetic and you're sorry, everybody wants to come to your rescue, everybody is like well, that's okay, no big deal.

Ellie Izzo:

Yeah, happens to all of us, yes, yes, and the rare time that someone wants to keep pounding on you verbally about it and then you can set a boundary, okay, clearly, I, I'm I'm not in a place where you're ready to forgive me for my mistake. Let's take a time out and when you feel like you're ready to forgive, we can pick this up again.

Launi Sheldon:

No, that's a great idea. So do you have any tips for legal professionals that they can do to kind of keep in mind to keep clients and colleagues sort of better listeners?

Ellie Izzo:

Oh, yeah, I have a couple. The first thing is the first thing. The first tip is to be more present for their agenda. Even though you really want them and need them to be present for what you need for them to do, give them the chance to be heard. So it doesn't mean sitting there for an hour while they go on and on. Just ask them what's on your mind, is there something you need to tell me? And so start out by being a good listener, but don't get too deeply into it. So how are you doing today? Oh, I'm really so stressed out this happened that happened.

Ellie Izzo:

Then you repeat wow, you've really got a lot on your plate. It's been difficult for you to juggle all this stuff. I really respect the fact that you're sitting here today with all you have going on. That person now feels seen, heard, acknowledged. They're going to be so much more compliant for how you need for them to proceed so you can both succeed on their behalf.

Launi Sheldon:

Oh, my God, that's. That's again more great advice. Well, thank you so much for being here. I'm I. I was really thankful that you were willing to do the CLE in this podcast. I think it's great information. You know something I wish I might have been better at a long time ago too. I think I'm learning.

Launi Sheldon:

I think you're a pretty good listener, but you know, I think that this is going to be helpful to everyone. So thank you so much. And for everyone out there listening, you know, check out our Learn Law For All website. She has the full one hour educational video on that. So thank you so much, dr.

Ellie Izzo:

Lani. Thank you, lani, hope to see you soon.

Launi Sheldon:

Bye-bye.