71 - How To "Choose A Church" with guest Joshua Creel

How do you choose a church when every congregation claims to follow Christ yet teaches different things? Joshua Creel from the University Church of Christ in Tampa joins us to tackle this crucial question through the lens of Galatians.

The conversation revolves around three essential criteria for selecting a church: determining whether they genuinely seek to please Christ rather than people, verifying their teachings originate from Jesus and his apostles (not modern teachers), and observing if they truly live out biblical principles. 

We explore the tension many families face when selecting a church—balancing the desire for youth programs and peer relationships against the need for sound doctrine. While having a strong community of believers is valuable, Joshua reminds us that these benefits should flow naturally from a congregation's commitment to biblical truth.

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:05

Welcome to the Exhorter podcast, where we aim to stir up love and good works through bite-sized biblical discussion. We have a special episode today. Kyle and I are here with Joshua Creel from the University Church of Christ in Tampa, florida. Joshua, you're out here doing a—is Josh? Okay, that's going to be a little weird if.

Speaker 2 0:24

I— yeah, either one. And you said bite-sized conversation. Y'all told me this is a two to three hour conversation Exactly.

Speaker 1 0:30

Well, we say bite-sized, and our first episodes were about 15 to 20 minutes long, and then we started doing 30 to 40 minutes and then people get mad at us when they're less than 35 minutes.

Speaker 3 0:43

So bite-sized is probably okay they need mad at us when they're less than 35 minutes, so this is probably okay. They need those extra pop culture and star wars references they need those things.

Speaker 2 0:48

I don't even preach 30 or 35 minutes. How am I going to do a podcast?

Speaker 1 0:50

well, because we interrupt each other a lot and we talk about, you know, star wars, you're. You're out here from florida doing a gospel meeting for us this week and it's been going great. We're halfway through through it, three lessons down, three more to go this week and I just thought we would sit down and talk about last night's lesson. I thought it was really, really great. It was on how to choose a church and if you wouldn't mind, just kind of framing what you talked about a little bit and we'll have a discussion around it.

Speaker 2 1:22

Yeah, I actually appreciate. One of your elders told me last night that he thought all three lessons yesterday were great, which my response was great, I can bomb the final three and still bat 500.

Speaker 1 1:31

So you ended up early and we had to add songs and stuff. I know you were trending, well. Well, that's what I thought.

Speaker 2 1:38

And, like the young families were like, yes, we can leave it, but then we got another song, that's okay. So, yeah, last night we were talking, and so everything we're doing this week is based from Galatians and we're looking at it from the standpoint of if you are seeking truth, how do you find truth when there's a lot of noise, there's a lot of confusion and, of course, one of those issues that comes up is we live in a culture where there's a lot of different churches. The churches teach and practice different things, but they all claim allegiance to Christ. They all claim we're following Christ, but they're all doing it differently. So how can you possibly know which one is going about it in the correct way? And the goal wasn't to say oh well, you know, just come to the Clovis Church of Christ and you absolutely will be right. If any of us have that attitude about our churches, then we're going to wind up deceiving ourselves and probably wind up going down some roads that we don't need to.

Speaker 2 2:38

What Paul is doing in Galatians is emphasizing things that make for true disciples and, first and foremost, there is is this group of people, are these teachers, is this church trying to honor and please Christ? That is the goal of every Christian. It's not to please man, it's not to appeal to man, it is to please man. It's not to appeal to man, it is to please Christ. Secondly, if we're going to please Christ, then we have to make sure that the teachings we follow originate with Christ and, in scripturally, new Testament, that comes from Jesus himself and his apostles, who he inspired. There have been many good teachers throughout time who have made relevant thoughts of Scripture, but if our faith, if our belief system, is based on any particular teacher, again they may lead us astray from Christ. I'm a huge CS Lewis fan. I think CS Lewis is a phenomenal author, but I don't think he taught everything that the apostles taught, and I could not say, yeah, he is a source of inspiration, he's not. It has to come from Peter, paul, james, john, jesus himself, that's who instructs us in the ways of Christ.

Speaker 2 4:01

And then, finally, the church is supposed to live out what they teach, and I said some things last night that I'd actually like to clarify a little bit. I talked about how the main thing that we should look at in a church isn't do they have people my age or do they have people my kid's age. I understand those are important things sometimes and actually, if we're going to live out, you know what the truth of the message is. Well, part of the truth of the message is the church exists to edify and encourage each other. We ought to be doing whatever we can to edify and to encourage people of all ages, of all backgrounds within our churches.

Speaker 2 4:45

So I don't mean to say that, you know, youth is unimportant. It is important. It's great that this church here has a significant number of young people and we ought to be doing things to encourage them and to support them. But that's a product of looking at the main issues. Are we pleasing Christ? Are we following the doctrine of Christ? Are we, as the church, living out that doctrine? And if we're doing that, then all these other things should be taken care of. That was a really long explanation of the sermon. That's almost half as long as the sermon itself that was a really great summary but some solid points.

Speaker 3 5:21

I've been at congregations of various sizes Great summary, but some solid points. I've been at congregations of various sizes. You know right now here in Clovis we might get around 250 on a Sunday morning and a lot of that is young families with lots of teenagers, lots of young kids and quite a few babies and even more on the way. So it's really great. But I've also been at churches that were maybe 25 or 30 people would be a really good Sunday morning showing, with the average age of, say, 65 plus. And I've also been at congregations kind of in between that.

Speaker 3 5:52

And one example that really sticks out to me is I greatly admired the thinking of this family. They were contemplating a move to Utah when I was working with the church in Kaysville, utah, when I was working with the church in Kaysville and the church had a lot of young kids. But this family had two teenagers and they said there's not really a lot of teenagers, there's no other teenagers our kids age. But they thought, well, if we choose to go here, the next family that comes here will see that there are teenagers here and the next family. And I just admired their way of approaching it that they could have thought and I'm reminded of the Israelites in the wilderness and they wanted to turn back to Egypt and they said, well, our children will become a prey here in the wilderness. And when God decided that first generation would die in the wilderness and says your children, whom you said would be a prey, they'll get the promised land and you won't. Sometimes we think what about my children? And we put that need prioritized a little bit too high.

Speaker 3 6:56

And I just appreciated the thinking of this family is that you know, we're hoping that this church though there's not other teenagers we're hoping that folks will give the support and encouragement to our teenagers. That and we did and we loved their kids. And you know what? The next family that was looking there for a work-related move they said, well, they got teenagers and our kids will fit in with them. And a couple of years ago I officiated a wedding of two of those kids. They actually met and got married, so a very big success story. But I just so appreciated that level of thinking is they looked at it and as a potential negative there's no other teenagers here but they decided we can start that trend and they knew that what mattered most was that we were a church that followed God, that followed the scriptures and did our best. You know, we were a church that followed God, that followed the scriptures and did our best, so I really appreciated that kind of thinking from that particular family.

Speaker 1 8:05

It probably needs to come with maturity, but of what you can do for that church versus what can I get out of that church locally if you're finding one. I like that shift of thinking because it's okay to have an impetus of we want to go here for something that our family really needs, to set off on the right path and to be focused. I think there's nothing wrong with that finding a church that aligns to that. But I do like the way that you aligned your questions, as you started, with truth first in the progression in which someone might be making those decisions.

Speaker 2 8:27

I mean you and I.

Speaker 2 8:29

We were having a discussion this morning even about school and how we made the various choices that we've made of like where are our kids going to be at school?

Speaker 2 8:37

Well, the choices we have made and, based on the personality of our kids, we have them where they are, because we know their actual peer group are kids from church. You know the kids they worship with. That's who has more influence on them than even the kids that they attend classes with during the week. So those things are wonderful, but what we want is that to be the product of good biblical teaching. And if that's what's drawing a family to a church, hey, they have the word, they have scripture. We want our kids immersed in that, even if that church doesn't have the teens like you were talking about in Utah, but they find this in the church. Then hopefully, with God's blessing, that produces more, and so you do get more of those same kinds of families who are seeking truth, and then you have that community that can be that body that is truly looking out for and edifying every one of the members and that's what we're all going for and edifying every one of the members and that's what we're all going for in a local church.

Speaker 1 9:47

And I think that's kind of on us as parents, right. If our kids need something, we're there to provide for their needs. And I think that if our kids need those strong peer groups within the church, it's on us to find the camp or to invite families over to our house to grow those relationships and establish those relationships, not just say, well, I hope they find it in a school Christian group or I hope they find it by just attending a church with kids. Whatever those needs are, we need a foundation first of biblical truth. But then it's on us as parents to, you know, go outside of our comfort zone maybe and invite people over and to kind of build those friend groups ourselves so that our kids have strong foundations in the church.

Speaker 2 10:39

So that is absolutely true, but and I think Kyle was getting at this one and he can explain more about the group in Utah but actual peers, as far as the ages of the kids is not the only important factor, the church where we are at in Tampa, we are thrilled that there are kids the ages of my kids, but I've also got elders looking after my kids. I've got people in all aspects of life, people who are my age, who have taken interest in my kids, people who are out of college who take an interest in my kids, college students right now who have taken, people who are also looking out for them, helping them, that they may be able to talk to them about, something that I don't have experience with. So that's of a vital importance in a local church too. Not just okay, are there other kids my kid's age is? What are the other people that can also help my kids? I love that perspective.

Speaker 3 11:57

Where I grew up I was in between two big groupings of kids. There was a lot just older than me in the high school college group. There was quite a bit in the young middle school elementary that was growing up. So I was kind of on an island and it was some of the college kids that would invite me, much to my brother's chagrin. But they would invite me to tag along and give me rides. When we'd go visit another church or go to a gospel meeting in another town or just do things after church, like go to Dairy Queen or something, I would get invited, they'd let me tag along. That was of huge importance.

Speaker 3 12:36

And, john, coming back to something you said earlier, trying not to get too far, we jokingly said maybe we should make this episode about parenting, since we were talking about that a lot, but let's keep it adjacent to this idea of looking for a church. And while it is important to look at what does this church have to offer us and offer our kids? I like that you talked about. Well, what can we bring to the table? And Ephesians 4 talks about that. The whole body is joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share and that causes the growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. So we need to be thinking about what am I bringing to the table?

Speaker 3 13:17

And as parents, like here at the church in Clovis, I love that there's so much thought to the children's curriculum that if your kids grow up here, from the fours and five class all the way up through middle school, it's organized where they will cover basically all parts of the Bible and not just get repeats of the same thing year after year.

Speaker 3 13:39

And I love that that's such a comprehensive big picture view.

Speaker 3 13:43

But we shouldn't fool ourselves either into thinking that two classes a week Sunday and Wednesday a lot of churches have Wednesday Bible class is sufficient for training our kids.

Speaker 3 13:54

And that's where it comes back to us as parents is we can look at a church and those things can be great positives.

Speaker 3 14:00

But the instilling godliness in biblical knowledge is first and foremost on my shoulders as a father and I look at the church and the Bible classes and the teachers and the excellent work they do as a father and I look at the church and the Bible classes and the teachers and the excellent work they do as a supplement, a support to what I'm doing and I fear that sometimes people get it the other way around is I'm part of a church and we've got a system and I can just plug my kids in and put them on autopilot and they're learning everything they need to learn. And if I'm not misunderstanding I think that gets back to the underlying point of Josh's sermon is those can be great positives, but you know, having children or having the great curriculum or programs or you know a lot of them look for like what you call, like youth groups or things like that those can all be great, but that shouldn't be the primary factor in what you're looking for.

Speaker 2 14:50

What is the right church shouldn't be the primary factor in what you're looking for. What is the right church? Yeah, all those things you would hope would flow from the three things we talked about. If you've got people who are all interested in pleasing God, following scripture, living out scripture, then of course there is going to be an interest in making sure that the younger generation is also learning the will of God and is being edified so that they too will remain faithful. But if you're just looking for oh well, that church has the bigger youth group, so you're looking at the end product, and if that's your goal, okay, well, it's great that they have a large youth group, but do you actually know that the other things are in place? Like, are they only trying to?

Speaker 3 15:34

Is it just social group or is it Right, right, right? Are they actually learning and being sharpened spiritually?

Speaker 1 15:42

I'd say, without going too deep into this rabble hole, one of the things I was thinking is, let's say that the focus is there and the foundation is there of you're focused on who you're trying to please correctly, and that the doctrine originates from the Bible when it comes down to it. I do a lot of work in trying to do, like youth forums and things like this, to provide people here an opportunity for a weekend of Bible study, bible study Sometimes I kind of juggle the idea of how much do you promote that in an effort as to bring people to services and outreach that, because I do know that we have a lot of congregations, community churches, that do a lot of that kind of marketing.

Speaker 3 16:26

Or do we just focus on keeping it in-house?

Speaker 1 16:28

Yeah, sometimes I kind of balance between at what point a congregation should not try to market, so what people are looking for sometimes john will start a sentence.

Speaker 3 16:40

Was not really sure how he's gonna finish it, that's why I edit my own stuff heavily.

Speaker 1 16:45

But and then he re-records it and yeah kyle, how would you rephrase that? I don't re-record it anymore, I just go with it.

Speaker 3 16:51

I would just look at it from the angle of something very subjective, that my answer isn't probably the best answer, but I know for me some of the strongest memories I have and most positive experiences were going to other churches gospel meetings or the youth lectures at the 160th Avenue Church of Christ in Portland and it was going there and that's where I met a lot of other people. So I had very positive experiences. That isn't those biblical answer, it's very subjective, but that's why I find some value in. I know there's a lot of small churches in Central California that you know those kids, they don't have a lot of peers at their church and again, we know that's not the most singularly important factor. But we I look at it as giving them opportunities to come in and meet a bigger circle of Christian friends and I find value in that. If if that's not the most biblical answer.

Speaker 2 17:46

So I think I'll try to be a little more biblical in my answer then. I'll try to be a little more biblical in my answer then. Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount you know when he's talking about us being the light of the world in Matthew 5, 13 through 16. And he says let your light so shine so that men may see your good deeds and glorify the Father in heaven. If what we are doing with edification whether it be our youth, whether it be okay, we have some classes in place for young mothers, or we have classes in place for fathers, or whatever it may be if all that is the product of this group of Christians in their love of the Lord and their finding truth in the teachings of Jesus and his apostles, if all that is being produced by this group, then that should attract other people. And so if what they are seeing is the fruit, okay.

Speaker 2 18:49

Now what we don't want is people just wanting to come and pick off a piece of fruit. Ok, they have youth, so I want that. No, but what they're seeing is OK, they have kids who are spending time together and spending time in the word of God. I want that for my kids. Ok, so they see that that brings an interest in what this group is. Then they too can find out. Oh, here's why that group is how they are, because there is that love of the Lord, there is that following of apostolic doctrine, and then that is what's producing fruit. So well, you don't want to go out and just say, hey, you ought to come to our church because we have a youth group.

Speaker 1 19:30

Yeah, I just haven't taken the chicken egg kind of thing. I wonder if there's churches out there that go okay. Well, we have a strong mental health need or we have an addiction problem in our area, so let's go ahead and do Bible classes on how to approach that through scripture and then market it out there so that people that's something that will bring. So it's like, where do you start as far as you start with community need and you market truth towards that, or do you start with what I feel like we do good here or what I think is important? Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 20:05

The balance of being the church that the community needs, versus you know where do you start. Think of it this way too.

Speaker 2 20:12

Why did Jesus and his apostles have signs with them? Okay, they did that one. It confirmed who they are. So, jesus, you know I am the son of God. I am, you know, I am speaking the truth of God. The apostles the same. But there was also that element of come and see.

Speaker 2 20:33

Okay, hey here's someone who you know, the Samaritan woman. She goes to her hometown and says come see a man who told me everything I've ever done. And then they all come and they want to see Jesus for themselves. So I personally just don't have an issue with us telling other people hey, we have this and we want you to know about this because we ultimately are wanting you to come and see. Here's who we are and here's what we're about.

Speaker 1 21:02

For a second. I got a little confused there. When you actually said signs, I'm like did they? When you said that, I was like wait, did they actually carry signs? Because I didn't remember by bad John's terminology.

Speaker 2 21:14

John's terminology.

Speaker 1 21:15

But that's a good point because by the end of John, chapter four.

Speaker 3 21:18

In that story the Samaritans say now we believe, not because of what you said. You know what the woman said come see, for all these impressive things he did, but we believe, um for ourselves, because we've heard him and we know that this is indeed the Christ. So it was. It was her um what's the word testimony that that got them interested or piqued their interest, that's what got them through the door. But they said well, we're not staying because of what you said, we're staying because of what he's teaching us and what we believe about him now.

Speaker 1 21:50

Yeah, I didn't mean to tunnel down this direction, but it's interesting to me to think about how concerned we are as a congregation to meet the needs of our community as far as how we present the gospel to them, versus do what we do on our own and they'll find it if they're so inclined. I'm just kind of curious as to how other congregations approach that need, because I know that there are some congregations, maybe in different areas of California, that I've heard of that there might be a strong, certain population or something around that area and so they try to direct their messaging that way, and I just don't know if that's done in other places. I mean, I was kind of curious.

Speaker 2 22:33

Well, I think a lot of that gets to. If we are supposed to be the light of the world and you're not supposed to hide a light under a bushel basket, you know you're supposed to let the light shine Then okay, you can say, well, we have our building and it's in this part of town, so whoever wants to find us can find us is right there. But if you know what your population is, you know who the people are around you, then why wouldn't we say okay, we're not compromising one, our mission to only please the Lord. We're not compromising scriptural truth, but we know this community needs this scriptural truth, so we're going to make sure this community knows it's here and we want them to see it.

Speaker 2 23:21

You know, one of the things that we've been able to do in Tampa we have an evangelist with us now, jp Flores, who's bilingual. Well, for the longest time, our church building has been in an area that has a really significant Spanish speaking population and they would have passed our building by and it says University, church of Christ in English. Well, now we can have the same thing said in Spanish, because we want these people to know hey, if you want to come and you want to hear the Bible being taught. You can hear that in your language. You don't have to. You know, know English. You can come and only speak Spanish and you can now know the Bible in your language.

Speaker 1 24:06

That's a great example, yeah.

Speaker 3 24:08

Well, and your name University Church of Christ, I assume, is because of your proximity to University of South Florida, and then you've got Florida College nearby, a small private Christian school, and so I imagine you probably um cater specifically to college students as well in in some regards, Sure.

Speaker 1 24:28

And that can be with the Bible studies you offer and things like that.

Speaker 3 24:31

You know but I've I've heard that you guys will do like, um, like you'll almost assign college students to a family is kind of like a. I don't know, not not chaperone, but more just like a I don't know, not chaperone but more just like a host family or something.

Speaker 2 24:44

Adopt a college student.

Speaker 3 24:45

Yeah, so that's kind of maybe one way of catering to the crowd in that particular, in your particular community as well.

Speaker 2 24:52

Well, again I would push back on the word catering. Our job as a church and this gets to our mission of pleasing Jesus and following scripture. Ephesians 4 is about using our gifts, using our abilities to make sure every part of the body is edified, equipped for the work of ministry. Well, if we've got these college kids who are coming to us from all across not only the country, sometimes the world then why wouldn't we do whatever we can to edify them? And that may mean because they're away from home for the first time. So if my family can help take care of this college student or this group of college students, then why wouldn't we do?

Speaker 3 25:39

I think that's important too is you know someone that is, you know, being a counselor and involved with the summer camp. So I promoted Florida college quite a bit, but I've always tried to encourage parents Don't assume that just because they're going to a Christian school where there's lots of good churches around that, that you don't have to not not check in on your kids, but treat it like any other college. Go visit the campus with them, go visit some churches with them, like you would in any other town for any other college, and so I think that can be an important element too. Let's see I'm going to change gears a little bit here.

Speaker 3 26:17

One other idea that popped in my head as I was listening to the sermon last night you kind of mentioned that again and as we've been talking through this podcast, is the idea of you're looking for a church that is trying.

Speaker 3 26:43

I think there's some value in that too, that sometimes what a church intends to be isn't always what it turns out to be, that sometimes there's a lapse between intention and reality and churches. If we're looking and evaluating a church based on what it is versus what it is trying to be, well, a church is made up of imperfect people and sometimes, and I think we've all probably encountered someone that says, well, a church is made up of imperfect people. And sometimes, and I think we've all probably encountered someone that says, well, I don't go to church because it's full of hypocrites. Well, what bad experience did you have? And unfortunately, that's the human element. And I mean you look at a lot of the churches, the church in Galatia itself we're looking at that this week in the gospel meeting and the whole point there is Paul is reminding them of the ideal, because you would probably visit that church in Galatia and say this isn't the church for me, but that doesn't mean that their lampstand had gone out necessarily, but maybe there was some risk of that.

Speaker 1 27:39

But I think that might be an important factor too is just considering that don't judge a church too harshly on when people do things they maybe shouldn't or don't live up to the ideal about progressive Christianity and the deconstructing Christianity movement that's in the forefront of why people start going down that path is they had a bad experience at a congregation before and now they just lump everything together and without realizing and understanding people are flawed and a congregation, a single congregation, local congregation, can be flawed, but so maybe looking at the opposite side, where all these pluses that we talked about.

Speaker 3 28:28

They have teens, they have youth, they have a variety of ages, they're diverse, all those things that are good, positives, but shouldn't be the determining factor. We could maybe do the same thing with the negatives there. They're cliquish, or there's, you know there, there, there's gossip there, or there's, you know, there's some people that have strange or I've been there a year and no one knows my name.

Speaker 1 28:49

I mean, that's not a good thing, but I don't know what access your audience would have to this.

Speaker 2 28:53

But Mark Roberts, who preaches in Irving Texas he has a, an online periodical is calleding On and he just put out a special issue on this about. Oh so you know you have a friend who's left the church. He asked me to write an article on this. Okay, you went to a church and it was cliquish. You know you weren't accepted. You know what do you say to that person? And one of the things I think we need to say to that person is are you saying that church can't grow? You know, here's what they are and like and like Kyle said, you know we are imperfect people. So here's who that church is right now, but does that mean they can't grow? Does that mean you can't be the catalyst for that growth?

Speaker 2 29:38

So, if you didn't feel like you know I was, I wasn't brought in like I'd want to be, okay, then why aren't you there making sure the next person isn't being brought in like you would want them to be? You know that's how, how is that church going to grow if there's not the catalyst and the people there who are trying to follow Christ, trying to make sure everybody's edified.

Speaker 2 30:01

You didn't feel especially edified, ok, well, you make sure no one else feels that way, and as you're doing that, hopefully the rest of the group is looking at that example and also growing from that. And so you then transform a church to more of what God wants it to be.

Speaker 1 30:18

Yeah, we've had discussions about that in the past, about how you're at a congregation, how do you know if you should leave or what are the deciding factors, and just the idea of long suffering. And as long as people are willing to study the truth, you know there is some sort of obligation there to try to resolve differences in thoughts and stuff and be a contributing factor to that congregation. I like that direction.

Speaker 3 30:43

Yeah, it was just something I was contemplating as we were talking about this, because a lot of the churches in the Bible I always think of, like the seven churches in Asia and Revelation two and three, like the church in Sardis, you know, jesus really kind of rips into him. But he does say in verse four of chapter three you have a few names, even in Sardis, who have not defiled their garments and they shall walk with me and in white, for they are worthy. And so in all these churches, churches, they have major flaws but their lampstands aren't out, they're in danger of that. But you would look at these churches and you might visit any one of these seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3 and think, well, this ain't it, this isn't the right church. But they have the right tools, they have the Bible, and if they would just recommit themselves to some of them had problems with false teaching if they would just recommit to follow Jesus.

Speaker 3 31:36

Only, you know, the word is the seed that when it's planted in the human heart it bears fruit, it produces Christians, it produces disciples of Jesus. So the right tools are there, but sometimes the church can stray a little bit, or part of the church or people in that church can stray a little bit and I just wanted to caution people. Don't let that, if all these positives maybe that's not the only reason, well, all these negatives shouldn't be the only reason you leave Draw people back to that ideal following Jesus, that commitment to his word, the commitment to authority and doing things according to the Bible.

Speaker 1 32:21

That got me thinking about your first point in your sermon, which is the Would you like?

Speaker 2 32:23

me to recap again.

Speaker 3 32:23

No no, no I wrote it down.

Speaker 1 32:25

Who's the church trying to please, and you got that out of Galatians 1.10. Or am I trying to please, and you got that out of Galatians 1.10, or am I trying to please man? How would you know if someone's trying to locate and identify a congregation and whether they're focused on the gospel and who they're trying to please? What are some ways that they'll be able to test that and understand and know that?

Speaker 2 32:45

So I'm actually going to go from two sides. So I'm actually going to go from two sides, opposite sides of the spectrum here. Sure, so on one side, you may be at a church and granted all the lessons, all the classes are from Bible, about Bible, but do you ever talk about what it actually means for Jesus to have authority? Do you ever talk about challenging issues like divorce and remarriage? Do you ever talk about challenging issues that are affecting our culture, whether it be homosexuality, drinking?

Speaker 1 33:18

whatever it may be, Is it application-based to their lives or is it just getting deeper?

Speaker 2 33:23

Well, again, I would say, yeah, the deeper Is everything? Just shallow, Sure, because you can draw a crowd and have again biblical teaching, but you're only giving milk and you're not giving meat. Are you always talking about the love of God? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in that case, there may be. We are trying to please our crowd. We are just making sure no one's ever offended. Please our crowd. We are just making sure no one's ever offended. There's never a challenging teaching that would bother somebody or really make somebody drill down and question okay, what changes am I going to have to make in my life to be fitting with what God wants me to be? That would be one side. The other side, you may have a church that just solid to the core, as far as we're going to teach everything that the Bible teaches and we're never going to duck from a controversial issue. But that's what they are. We just you know we will be as conservative as you want to be conservative and we will make sure that we are right.

Speaker 3 34:31

But they're still not trying to please God Sounds a little bit like the church in Ephesus where Jesus commends them for their strong stand on doctrine and their stance against false teachers. But you've left your first love. And so they're doctrinally sound, but maybe they've kind of missed the point of.

Speaker 2 34:50

Yeah, and what I was even thinking about, and this may be, you know, from my background. You may have a very small church and they're just content because you know what we never wavered on truth.

Speaker 3 35:00

Okay, well, it's great that you never wavered on truth.

Speaker 1 35:02

We kept the wolves out, yeah.

Speaker 2 35:03

We kept the wolves out. Did you try to bring more sheep in?

Speaker 1 35:30

no-transcript litmus test to understanding. Are we going to address that? Are we going to table that Is that a side conversation, and obviously you don't want. If it's a questionable topic, you might want to take some tactful side approaches to it, but are we never getting into it deeper?

Speaker 2 35:54

Yeah. So there is a challenge there, I won't deny it. I don't try to duck from challenging issues, but it also has to be truth spoken with love. It can't be.

Speaker 2 36:05

You know I probably in the lesson that I did last night because I did. You know I probably in the lesson that I did last night because I did, I wanted to use real world examples of where churches clearly are compromising. I probably called out churches more in that sermon than I do the rest of the year, because that's not, that's not what I'm trying to do. I'm not trying to call out, okay, this church here, they're clearly wrong because of this. They're clearly wrong because of this. I can teach truth without being offensive and that's what I'm trying to do and I think that's what we're all trying to do here. So I think we can deal with any of those challenging topics, but approach it with love, with patience, with understanding and if someone's actually there wanting to know truth, if they see that what I'm saying is actually from the word of God, I don't find that they just walk out very often.

Speaker 3 37:01

Well, and I think this was such a good conversation. Josh, I want to thank you for being here this week. Look us up on YouTube, clovis, church of Christ, and check out the sermons that Josh has been presenting in this week. Look us up on YouTube, clovis Church of Christ, and check out the sermons that Josh has been presenting in this series. Look him up, university Church of Christ in Tampa, florida, and check out some of his lessons there.

Speaker 3 37:18

Really good, thought-provoking stuff, and I appreciate the conversation today because we've all probably had someone make that accusation.

Speaker 3 37:26

So what, you think the Church of Christ is the only real or sound church, or you think you guys are the only ones going to heaven, and we need to have a good answer for that kind of question.

Speaker 3 37:34

If you're looking for a church, you need to know what to look for and if you feel good about the church you're at, you need to have some good answers as to well, okay, look, I wouldn't say we're the only ones going to heaven, I wouldn't word it that way. But look, jesus said I will build my church he didn't say churches and we want to make sure we're at a church that looks like the one that Jesus built and we want to have a respect for Jesus as the head of the body, and him only, and we want to have some good answers for the reasons why we do some things at our church and some reasons here's why we don't do these other things that maybe you'll find at other churches. So it is important to have good answers for that, and so this is a very important question and I've really enjoyed this conversation today and some of the lessons we've heard this week already.

Speaker 2 38:19

Thank you both. I really enjoyed this and enjoyed my time here at the Clovis Church of Christ and looking forward to a few more nights Great, all right, see you guys later, looking forward to a few more nights Great.

Speaker 1 38:28

All right, See you guys later. Last Sunday we got about once or twice a year. Will we get through 50% of a podcast episode for me to realize that it stopped recording and I didn't know where it stopped and we have to listen to it back or just reset and stop and then I have to go back there and hope that it was coherent. But okay, Good times.

Speaker 2 39:06

Everything we're doing this week is really from Galatians, and we're looking at it from the standpoint of what if you're a seeker and you're trying to find truth, but yet you live in a culture where it can be really confusing to find what is true, what is real and, of course, one of those issues that comes up in our society. I think my phone's off as you we're very professional here.

Speaker 1 39:29

I kept it on because my daughter's at home sick, so I apologize.

Speaker 2 39:33

Would you like to talk about parenting?