80 - What Happens When We Die?

What happens after our final breath? In this episode, we dive into what Scripture teaches about death and the judgment that follows. The Bible makes it clear that our consciousness continues after death—but is this the final judgment, a temporary waiting place, or does that distinction even matter?

Through the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, we explore what Jesus reveals about the reality of the afterlife. While this isn’t a complete or final word on the subject, we aim to help you reflect on what matters most and prepare your heart for eternity.

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:05

Welcome to Exhorter Podcast, where we're going to stir up love and good works through bite-sized biblical discussion. This episode will be handed off to Nate.

Speaker 2 0:15

Hi, what are we going to be talking about? Flip a coin, yeah.

Speaker 3 0:20

Rochambeau right now who's going to do the?

Speaker 1 0:22

episode Nate, nate, there you go.

Speaker 2 0:24

I thought we already flipped the coin earlier and it went to Kyle and now it's me.

Speaker 1 0:27

Well.

Speaker 2 0:30

Thank you for passing it off to me. I want to talk about something because I got In an argument with my wife about it the other day. Nice, no, she and I were talking about judgment and final judgment, and she was of the opinion that final judgment happens Immediately when you die, and I was of the opinion that, no, it happens a little bit after that, and well, not a little bit after that, but it all happens on one day, like you know, the judgment day. And so, anyways, this led us to a discussion about death and what happens when, when we die. And so that's what I want to talk about today is, I want to talk about death and what happens when we die.

Speaker 1 1:10

Well, that's helpful because that's been a user question before. Oh, very good. What happens when you die is the title of this episode, but it was also the title of someone's inquiry and I think that's because, yeah, there's a lot of ideas are sampled from other religions or other thoughts out there and so then they get all muddled up and mixed up and we get a little confused.

Speaker 2 1:38

Well, and I think that we can even get confused within the Christian faith about what does happen when we die, because there are different ideas out there about that, and I have some statistics. Yeah, I pulled a page out of John's book. I also have some scriptures and we will be going over both, whatever Okay. So approximately 172,824 people die every day around the world. Wait, how many?

Speaker 1 2:02

172,824 people die every day around the world.

Speaker 2 2:05

Wait, how many? These are 172,824.

Speaker 1 2:07

172,000.

Speaker 2 2:10

That's really odd that they would say approximately and then be so specific with the number. Nevertheless and it's I want to be somber when I read these that many people die every day around the world. That's about 7,200 people an hour, or 120 every minute.

Speaker 1 2:26

So two every second. I guess it feels like the birth rate versus that there's an offset global population system there, but I guess it feels like it's light.

Speaker 2 2:44

In the US, 8,990 people die every every day. That's about 374 deaths per hour. Worldwide, over 62 million people die each year and that number is increasing, um, which makes sense because population is increasing. Uh, but here's the best statistic, I think, on death 100 of people die. That was. That was supposed to be a, a joke. It didn't work. False, okay, enoch and Elijah. Well, I mean, this is true.

Speaker 3 3:15

Boom roasted. 99.9999999% of all people Die.

Speaker 2 3:22

Okay, alright, kyle's right. I think we're both right. What about during the rapture? I'm sure there's going to be some people 99.99% of all people die. Yeah, okay, all right, kyle's right, I was wrong. I think we're both right.

Speaker 1 3:27

What about during the rapture? I'm sure there's going to be some people.

Speaker 2 3:30

That's a future episode of the Exhorter podcast on the rapture yeah, that one will be right after no, I thought we were going to talk about purgatory Hades and everything in this episode.

Speaker 3 3:40

I thought we were going to cover like the dark side of it in a future episode. That's what I was thinking like.

Speaker 2 3:45

This is the light side gehenna, hell, um like, like the punishment aspect well, I think we'll probably talk a little bit about that today, okay, I mean, hey, it's your episode, let's see if we can. Let's see if we can get there. So here's a question for you why do you think, uh, we avoid talking about death even though, like it's, it's so prevalent and everybody knows it's going to happen to everybody?

Speaker 3 4:07

Why do you avoid talking about my wisdom tooth? It has a very dark cavity looking spot on it. If I don't talk about it, I don't have to think about it.

Speaker 2 4:16

Well, why don't you want to think about it?

Speaker 3 4:18

Cause I don't want to get surgery and have it, you know, have it removed, and but if I don't talk about it, it then I don't have to think about it, and you don't want to think about it why?

Speaker 2 4:30

because it's painful, it's painful and it's scary and I don't know what it'd be like.

Speaker 1 4:32

Yeah, yeah, oh, that's true, john. Why do you think people avoid talking about death? It could be the uncertainty of it causes anxiety, um, the uncertainty of their, of one's, um place in it, like standing like, yeah, what does's going to happen to me when I die?

Speaker 2 4:46

Personally to me.

Speaker 1 4:47

I think that causes anxiety and yeah, so I think ignorance, I think is one key and. I think also. I mean the same reason why people knock on wood. There's some superstition, but there's also just some avoidance of speaking about negative things and not wanting them to happen and sometimes people believe that if you bring things up and talk about them, the likelihood and chance of them happening are greater it's increased. And so let's not talk about what let's not do a will right now.

Speaker 3 5:19

Yeah.

Speaker 1 5:21

And let's not talk about our insurance policy. It does. You know life insurance policy because if I don't have one, then I don't have to worry about it.

Speaker 3 5:27

Then it never happened except for that's not the case, and so I think generally, we avoid talking about things that we feel might increase their likelihood.

Speaker 1 5:36

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 5:38

What shaped your earliest beliefs about what happens when we die?

Speaker 1 5:41

The toad ride at Disneyland.

Speaker 2 5:43

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 5:44

I mean you can go through hell and back.

Speaker 2 5:47

Do you go through hell on the?

Speaker 1 5:48

toad ride. Yeah, kind of do you get hit with a train, you die, you go to hell and then you jump in a car buggy again and come back. Yeah, a little kind of creepy for Disney Very very creepy.

Speaker 1 6:06

So the toad ride shaped john's opinion about, uh, what happens when we die. I think, uh, there's lots of things like. Our society shows a lot of conflicting and interesting different perspectives about after death. Whether you, uh, what is it like when you see a light? Do you uh replay all your memories you know right before death, um, all those kinds of, is it like lost, where it's some other creepy reality?

Speaker 3 6:27

oh, don't talk about laws disappointment.

Speaker 1 6:32

Um, I, I just, I don't know what has inferred mine, probably biblically, yeah, sound doctrine, but that was yeah, that was well, that was what it was.

Speaker 2 6:42

For me. It was, like you know, preaching early on, and, and oh, that's what I was. For me, it was like you know, preaching early on, and oh, that's what happened. Kyle, was there anything specific that shaped your earliest beliefs about death?

Speaker 3 6:52

I'm probably just listening to my older brothers talk about it and bits and pieces I picked up from Bible class. Yeah, yeah, so I can't you know. There were things later, but you're talking about my earliest. It was probably shaped by those things, yeah.

Speaker 1 7:09

A lot of where I come from is based on what my brothers told me. Oh yeah, but this is an interesting topic for me, okay, because you guys are preachers and I'm not, so you guys have probably studied this a little more deeply than I have. I have grown up with a perspective that I feel is is based upon biblical understanding, but I don't know that I've had that challenged and I don't know that that's what you're going to come up with here.

Speaker 3 7:31

So I'm kind of like looking at it going maybe I agree with your wife.

Speaker 2 7:35

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 7:35

But I'm wondering I'm kind of curious, as we're talking about this if you're going to also mirror some of the same perspective that I have by how I was raised. Yeah, but I don't think it was ever so like. I don't think I ever heard a lesson on it.

Speaker 2 7:53

Yeah.

Speaker 1 7:53

I think it was just something I picked up based upon a conversation. Yeah yeah, I'm curious as to how this is going to go.

Speaker 2 8:00

This is fun, so so I think we can go to Ecclesiastes 12, 7 and discern some things about what happens when we die. There the writer says and the dust returns to the earth as it was and the spirit returns to God who gave it. I think there's some obvious implications of that that there's more to us than just a body. We have a soul or a spirit, and that those at death those things separate. You know, body goes back to the earth we get buried, and our spirit goes goes back to God. So I think scripture is pretty clear on that. I think most of us can agree. Where I want to go for most of this episode, though, is Luke 16. Though is Luke 16, and, or at least for yeah, I want to talk about the rich man and Lazarus, because I think that there it gives us some insight into what happens after, after, we die. So I want to I want to read Luke 16, verses 19 through 24. Yeah, let's do that.

Speaker 2 9:05

There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day, and, as his gate was laid, a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. Licked his sores, the poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment. He lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham, far off, and Lazarus set aside and he called out Father Abraham, have mercy on me. And says send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I'm in anguish in this flame.

Speaker 2 9:41

But Abraham said child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things and Lazarus, and like men, are bad things. But now he's comforted and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able and none may cross over there from us. All right, so there's kind of a lot there, but I think one of the things that we gather from that is that we're conscious after death, lazarus and the rich man are both conscious after death, and that there is a place, or perhaps two places, where people go immediately when they die. One is a place of torment, and one is not. It is a place of comfort. Do you think that this story gives us a literal glimpse into the afterlife, or do you think that this is just figurative and meant to teach some principles?

Speaker 3 10:40

How big is Abraham's bosom? So if we're going to get literal, so I think it's clearly figurative. But when we say figurative that doesn't mean we dismiss it. It is talking about something very real.

Speaker 2 10:52

Yeah, maybe that's where I was going.

Speaker 3 10:54

That's where I kind of come down with. Like you know, describing is in Abraham's bosom, like well, let's, let's think about that a little bit. It's clearly figurative.

Speaker 2 11:01

That was an interesting question to ask, to get us to your point. But how big is Abraham's bosom?

Speaker 1 11:07

Like a large bosom.

Speaker 2 11:08

Yeah, a pretty big bosom. He's very bosomy, very bosomy.

Speaker 1 11:11

One of the things I saw in here that I thought was interesting too is it seems as if they recognize and know who these people are, and that might then answer that question as far as if people have a, will I know family members, Will I recognize people? Will I understand, you know, the difference between people?

Speaker 2 11:32

Yeah, so, and that there's a you know there's, there's a separation between these two places and you and no one can cross it, right? I think that that comes up here too. Here's the question. This was the question that my wife I mean, because Lazarus is in a place of comfort and the rich man is in a place of torment. So how did they?

Speaker 1 12:00

get through. So can I walk through my answer with this, even though, like I said, you're the one that previously studied this?

Speaker 2 12:06

Yeah.

Speaker 1 12:08

I think that there would have to be two judgments. Okay, yeah, I think there would have to be an initial sorting of sorts. I think there would have to be an initial sorting of sorts I mean there would have to be an initial judgment, but I don't think that that is the day of judgment. I think that that would be different when Jesus comes back. But then again, one of the things I love about God and the things he knows is I mean, he has a different perspective on time than we even do so, how do we know that it's not immediate?

Speaker 1 12:39

once it happens? I don't know. I mean like the idea. I don't want to throw that into like a question of like whether or not there is but time in heaven and time in these places. I don't know that it's one to one here.

Speaker 3 12:56

Does Abraham, speaking of Abraham, does he feel like he's been there for 3,000 years now? And so that's one that's hard to find a definitive answer to. I think we need to look at what is this parable teaching? What is its intended purpose? And it's in the context. You look at chapter 15, the lost coin and the parable or the prodigal, and it's all about the way the Jews looked at others and the poor and this idea. I don't know how they missed Job somehow, but they still had this idea that if you're rich, then you must be blessed by God and if you're poor, well, it's because you're a bad person, or something like that. And Jesus is showing them like look, you can be the richest person in the world and Job should have told you that you can still end up like a dog, yeah, and you'd look at this rich guy who is unnamed because in the story he's really unimportant, he's a loser. But they would look at him and say, wait, wait, wait, wait. He's on the outside looking in.

Speaker 2 13:49

Yeah.

Speaker 3 13:55

How's the case? And so it's all about teaching them that point, that they would esteem the poor man and rich man one way, but through the lens of death and from God's perspective, it's completely subverted their expectations. So is this passage intended to be instructional for us about all of our questions, about? The afterlife no but I don't want to say we can't derive some conclusions about the afterlife from it Kyle, no, Sure.

Speaker 2 14:15

But I don't want to say we can't derive some conclusions about the afterlife from it. Yeah, yeah, and that's a fair question yeah, you bring up a good point, because the context of this parable isn't necessarily to teach them hey, here's exactly what the afterlife is about. But I do think that it does give us a glimpse into what the afterlife is about.

Speaker 3 14:28

Well, and there's definitely some takeaways we can get from it.

Speaker 1 14:30

Yeah because I guess one of the biggest takeaways I've always taken is you can't go back and then take backs we use this in talking about whether ghosts exist, and I always have this now like back into my my brain is what's the purpose of a ghost? And, yeah, you know what are they doing you?

Speaker 2 14:47

know unfinished business. How is that even?

Speaker 3 14:49

possible this rich man had unfinished business and abraham said no, there's a great, there's a great chasm.

Speaker 1 14:56

But then he wanted to, to warn him and like these ideas that you can't.

Speaker 3 15:01

Yeah.

Speaker 1 15:01

Their life is their own and they have to learn this, and you had a time where you could have.

Speaker 3 15:07

They had all the same information. They had all the same information you had, mr Rich man.

Speaker 1 15:11

Yeah, and so I think that one's always been bigger in my head of the story, because that just stood out more that the principle there is. It's the whole Jacob Marley bit Like you can't do that though, like they had their chance, like you can't actually go and warn them even though you want to save them and warn them, and that there is that divide, yeah.

Speaker 2 15:34

So here's a question, though, is where Lazarus and the rich man are. Is this a waiting place or is this heaven and hell? Maybe we'll answer that.

Speaker 1 15:42

It's called purgatory, isn't it? Isn't that what the Catholic would call it?

Speaker 2 15:44

Well, that's what the Catholics would call it. I don't know a lot about the their teaching on on on purgatory. Something I find interesting is what Jesus says to the thief on the cross. He said to him truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise, um. So what is paradise Like? Is that um? Is that the, the waiting place where Lazarus is, or is that actually actually heaven?

Speaker 1 16:14

My understanding of the idea of purgatory was it's a waiting place for purification. Yeah, they believe that that is a place. You need to be there to purify, but we would believe that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross and that's already been done. Yeah, and it's because in Revelation it talks about you cannot go there unpure, you know. Yeah, so as if there's a place for that. But I think that's also just people conflating these messages of do you go there directly or is there like a waiting room?

Speaker 2 16:44

Yeah, so let's talk about the final judgment and resurrection. Um, so in in John, chapter five, verse 28 and 29,. Uh, Jesus says do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out those who have done good to the resurrection of life and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. So there will be a resurrection following death. So we're all going to be resurrected, but where we go is going to depend on those who have done good to the resurrection of life, those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. So this kind of brings up with me an interesting thought when I think of resurrection, I remember growing up thinking that if we're going to be resurrected, we're going to be resurrected as a spirit and like a spirit, kind of like a ghost. What do you guys think when we're going to be resurrected? What do you think our resurrected forms will be? Like New body?

Speaker 3 17:48

I don't know if physical is the right word in the sense that we know it, but material in the sense that we know it, but material. I think 1 Corinthians makes it clear 1 Corinthians 15, that the spirit, the idea of death, isn't a separation of the spirit from the body, that we are now some sort of disembodied entity, there is some sort of material to combine with the spirit. But 1 Corinthians 15, again, the Bible gives us some clarity, but not complete clarity. It simply describes that we're sown perishable, but we're raised imperishable. Sown in weakness, raised in power. And so, rather than telling us precisely and I think some of this too is like Paul in trying not to boast. I think maybe I lean into the scripture too much, but this one has always spoken loudly to me on these kinds of questions. In second corinthians 12, when when paul says, uh, I know a man, I think he's pertaining to talking to himself here about himself.

Speaker 3 18:44

Um, you know, 14 years ago whether in the body, I do not know, or whether out of the body, I do not know, god knows but such one was caught up in a third heaven. Uh, this man um, saw, what do you say? He was caught up into paradise and heard inexpressible words, which is not lawful for a man to utter inexpressible words. I I think what paul is trying to say there is, there were things that I couldn't. I couldn't describe to you if I tried. Yeah, like trying to describe the color red to someone who's been blind their whole life. Well, it's like orange, but well, they don't know what orange is Like. How do you do that? Yeah, how does Paul describe the things he saw and heard and experienced in this vision? He doesn't even know if he was in body or not.

Speaker 2 19:24

Yeah.

Speaker 3 19:25

And so there's always that element of I don't think we could even fully understand if God told like I don't think there's a way for God to explain it to us until we experience it, but he can put it in relational terms, uh, very much better. Or corruptible versus incorruptible, perishable versus imperishable, weak versus powerful, and and so, yeah, I do think. First, corinthians 15 clearly teaches Jesus was the first fruits, it says, and when he was resurrected they still recognized him. Yeah, he had a body, he even ate food with them. And if he's the first fruits, it implies that our resurrection, we go through a similar resurrection as him yeah.

Speaker 1 20:08

So then explain 2 Corinthians 5 8, where it says, yes, we are of good courage and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. Is it just saying the body as just clearly? I mean, look in the Greek there say it's purely a physical form.

Speaker 3 20:27

This body, this body.

Speaker 1 20:29

So it's talking about a new body, yeah.

Speaker 3 20:32

Well, and that's another thing in 1 Corinthians 15. It talks about like birds in the air, that there's one body for birds that are in the air. Well, they have a body that's suited for flying through the sky. Fish have a body that's suited for their environment in the water. This body is not suited for being in the presence of God or being in spiritual places, places, but the body that we are raised with and that's the implied teaching there in 1 Corinthians 15, is that, whatever that body is, whatever material it is, it's not of this earth and it is suited for that environment, for that life. I think that's what 1 Corinthians 15 is trying to tell us. So, when that 2 Corinthians passage you talked about, yeah, I think it's talking about this mortal form that we're in that is destined to corruption, uh, and we long to be, because this body can't take us there. So we want to be separated from it, but it doesn't mean that we're just again some, some sort of, um, gaseous spirit. That's how, and that's the thing is is um our.

Speaker 1 21:32

Our perspectives are heavily skewed by media and proposed perspectives of people trying to understand biblical concepts over time and drawings and animations and recreations most people's understanding of hell is based on Dante sure.

Speaker 3 21:50

I don't even know who that is but I just know that Dante's Inferno, that's where people get their perception of hell, more so than the bible and a lot of us, because the bible doesn't give us, it doesn't scratch all of our itches, I think it looks a lot like our curiosities, the dmv, but um, I think it looks like a taylor swift concert.

Speaker 2 22:07

There you go I, I, uh, I always thought that, uh, that hell was, uh, was created by the devil. And then I don't remember when it was, but it was as an adult I was reading Revelation. It was like no hell was created by God for the devil. That makes it that much scarier.

Speaker 3 22:25

Matthew 25 says that it is prepared for the devil and his angels, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not his bat cave, it's not his secret, lair, yeah yeah. It's his prison, the lake of fire. He's cast into it and all those that worship the beast in Revelation cast into it. But it is his punishment, it is his torment and if you follow him you're caught up in it. It's kind of like Mustafar, is what it reminds me of.

Speaker 3 22:47

That's what, exactly? What is Mustafar? That was Darth Vader's castle he built. It's the place where he got his legs and arm chopped off and he burnt all of his skin off oh, oh, okay, so he made it his secret lair.

Speaker 2 23:00

I uh, yeah, sorry, I just don't know.

Speaker 1 23:02

This is why you're not invited to D&D. This is why I'm not. I don't even know.

Speaker 2 23:06

I remember that scene simplest things I remember that scene've established that we have a soul and we have a body. When we die, our body goes to the earth, our soul goes to God. That there are two potential places it can go a place of torment and not a place of torment, or paradise, and that there is some sort of judgment. Hebrews 9.27 tells us or paradise. And that there is some sort of judgment, hebrews 9.27 tells us. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes the judgment. So this is where Ashley and I got into our conversation here about judgment. When does it occur? In Hebrews it tells us, after we die we are judged. But really I guess my question is is it immediate? Is it an immediate judgment or is this something that occurs? You know that final judgment occurs later on down the line and it all occurs. You know we all go before God and and stand there individually.

Speaker 3 24:16

I'm going to say something and then the podcast will be over after this. Okay, all right. Does it really matter if we have to wait or if it's instant? That is a good question. Thank you for listening to the Exhorter Podcast. That's a good question.

Speaker 1 24:29

I'd like to know if there's a lightning lane, if you paid your penance, the Disney. No, no. What I was thinking is could both be true. Can everyone who has died and is dying, they all immediately go to paradise? And then, when Jesus comes, everyone who's alive, they're judged immediately. And could the judgment be both. It's like the flood killing everyone on the planet at that point, like that was a judgment on people who are living on the planet.

Speaker 1 24:59

So can't that judgment be when Jesus comes again, judges everyone who's still alive. Could it be a combination of the two, can't that? Can't that judgment be when jesus comes again, judges everyone who's still alive. Could it be a combination of the two? And at that point then it gets into. Kyle's point was if not, what's?

Speaker 2 25:12

actually made the point that there's got to be some preliminary judgment at least, so that, because there's two separate places, at least that we see in in the story of the rich man.

Speaker 3 25:21

Yeah. Well, first of all, I think chronology, I'll just say, is chronology, I think is the fuzziest part of the afterlife, yeah.

Speaker 1 25:28

Like when things happen.

Speaker 3 25:29

As my comment earlier, though, implied is. I think it's also one of the least important, but it is something that seems a prime curiosity to us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I will say from Lazarus and the rich man yeah, it didn't seem like, for their point of view, whether they had gone through the final judgment or they're still waiting for it.

Speaker 3 25:49

It doesn't seem like they're in suspense as far as what the outcome is. So I would say, john, to your point, it's probably not that different from the concept we think of, where you get arrested and you're put in jail, but then you know and you're convicted, but then you're awaiting sentencing and so maybe that final judgment day is more like sentencing, where it just becomes final.

Speaker 3 26:08

But do you really think it's for God's benefit, like, like, I can present my case and maybe there's evidence God didn't consider and I might persuade him? And no, I feel like when we die it's there's no suspense as far as where we're going for eternity. And so if we're sitting around waiting for a thousand years, it's not like we're in suspense, like, and so if we're sitting around waiting for a thousand years, it's not like we're in suspense. Like, well, will I get into heaven or not?

Speaker 1 26:26

I think you're going to know, that's when we put in print our own perspective of life and time and everything on this, where it'd be like, well, am I just sitting there for hundreds of years and thousands of years being bored, or what am I doing during that time? What am?

Speaker 3 26:37

I doing? I'm eating pizza and not getting fat. Yeah, well, that's, but I'm assuming when it talks about no tears in heaven, no sorrows right.

Speaker 1 26:46

I think of this idea that there's a lot of things I care about right now on earth I'm just simply not going to care about. I mean, it's going to be a whole new thing. I won't need to care about those things because these things will be established and they'll be understood. And I think it's like the idea of if I'm there and a loved one of mine isn't, am I going to have this heartbroken loss and can I even enjoy being there? You know we talk about like the different songs and stuff that talk about. Would I even want to be there if someone isn't there? And I think the answer is yes, you will. You may not be able to conceive of that idea now, but that's kind of the hope I have in my thoughts and head is when I'm there and I have that understanding.

Speaker 2 27:34

Yeah.

Speaker 1 27:36

I won't care about these things that I care about now.

Speaker 2 27:39

As you were talking, I was thinking like, what are we going to do when we're there? I mean, I know that we're going to praise God, but it's just. Will we think about time? Will there be time like we know it now? Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2 27:55

But to bring it back to the question, is judgment immediate or does it happen like, does final judgment happen on one day or at one time period?

Speaker 2 28:06

And I'm kind of of the mind that it it happens all all at once, like, like you said, kyle, I don't think there's any secrets about where you're going, like there's, there's a waiting place and uh, well, if you're in the waiting place of torment, you're probably not going to get out.

Speaker 2 28:21

But when I think about, like, final judgment, um, I think about, uh, revelation 20. Um, and it says, and I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened and the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done, and if anyone's name wasn't found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. And so I get this picture there of, like we're all going to come before God and and what's what's written in those books we're going to, we're going to talk about it, and if my name's not in the book of life, then I'm not going where I want to go. So when I think of judgment, I think of it all happens on, uh, or final judgment happens on on one day. Well, here's, here's a question how does knowing about our future judgment affect our present life and choices?

Speaker 3 29:09

Uh, nate, you started us in in Ecclesiastes. I'd like to go back there in Ecclesiastes seven. How does this affect us? He says better to go to a house of mourning than to the house of feasting, for that is the end of all men and the living. Take it to heart. Uh, you know a friend of mine named Carl Romine. Uh, he, he, he phrased it this way. He said whenever you have a major life decision, go ponder it.

Speaker 3 29:34

As you're walking through a cemetery and look at all the dates on the tombstone and put it in that perspective. And we don't like to talk about the fact that death and taxes are the most inevitable things, but when we find ourselves forced to face that reality it sobers us up quick and makes us think a lot more clearly about our goals and objectives in life touches close to home with us, with friends, with family and stuff.

Speaker 1 30:08

We generally go through those motions of thinking about what happens when it happens to us and what we'll leave behind and what, who, the what are the things we wanted to say or will want to have done and said to people. We kind of all do that kind of self-reflection, that's. I think that's purposely put there yeah for us, and in our hearts, to do so. That's smart.

Speaker 2 30:26

Kyle, that passage that you brought up, I think is a really great passage for us to consider. When we think about judgment and the fact that I am going to die, there will be a judgment and what I do here matters and I think that's what we do. I imagine it sitting in the front row at a funeral versus sitting in the front row at a wedding. What am I thinking about? And when I'm in the front row at a funeral, I am thinking about, like the deceased, but I'm also thinking about my life and what I'm doing with it, because ultimately it matters, because we're going to be judged.

Speaker 1 31:03

Kyle, but we didn't get your hot take on. Do you think that it's initial judgment or judgment later on, or a little bit of both? Hybrid judgment Do you like hybrid judgment? Do you like initial judgment? Do you like postponed judgment? Do you like waiting place? Do you like? Time has no meaning, I don't care. It really isn't on issue to me, are you saying you don't care because you don't have a definitive perspective from the Bible?

Speaker 3 31:28

how does that change the way I live now?

Speaker 1 31:30

how does that affect my day to day?

Speaker 3 31:33

I'm curious about it, but that's my genuine answer, not to be flippant, but like it really isn't on issue to me as far as what the timeline of it looks like. All I know is that the way it's described is when Paul is writing to Timothy, or to the Philippians, rather in Philippians, chapter one. He talks about well, you know, if I live on, it's good for you and I think that would be great. If I die, that's gain to me because I go and be with Christ and it's very much better. And we look at other passages like 1 Thessalonians 4 that talks about how we grieve the loss of others, but not the way the world does. It strongly implies this idea of reunion. Genesis 37, Jacob, talking about his son Joseph that he believed to be dead, said well, I can go down to the grave to be with my son. And David, similarly, in 2 Samuel 12, talked about that, that, that when his child died and he cleaned himself up. And he said well, I can't bring him back from the dead, but I can go to him.

Speaker 2 32:31

Yeah.

Speaker 3 32:31

So the way it's described is like we look forward to. It's a reunion with, with loved ones. It's going to be with God, as Paul described it. Um, when and how those things play out doesn't matter to me, but it sounds like that's today. You'll be with me in paradise, and I think when I die, I put my faith in Jesus and I'm not afraid of what's what's awaiting me. Yeah, Death is just a pathway to greater living.

Speaker 2 32:57

So the timeline isn't perfectly clear, but the end result is really what matters whether or not we're in heaven with God or not.

Speaker 3 33:03

Yeah, I'm certainly curious about it.

Speaker 1 33:06

No, I was just inching to the fact that you didn't think there was a definitive biblical perspective about it.

Speaker 3 33:11

I think you can extrapolate some things, but again, I think a lot of times these teachings aren't, they're not meant. We just need to be careful, because they're not meant to tell us all the facts and answer all the questions about heaven. They're meant to teach a specific point. We can derive some secondary conclusions, but sometimes I think, if we look a little too hard, we might I don't know, we might not arrive at exactly the precise conclusion. That is the reality.

Speaker 2 33:40

I think that there are some things that are really clear about death and what happens when we die. There's a separation of soul from body. That soul is going to go back to God. There are two places we are going to go and there will be a judgment, and that judgment is based on what we have done in this life, which makes what we do in this life important and valuable. So I hope that if you're listening to this today, you're considering what it is you're doing with your life, because what you do matters and will impact your eternity.

Speaker 3 34:23

Yeah, nate, I think that's a really good way to wrap it up and will impact your eternity. Yeah, nate, I think that's a really good way to wrap it up. In Revelation, chapter 20, verse 11, john describes a great white throne and him who sat on it, from whose face the whole earth and the heaven fled away and there was found no place for them, and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. So you're absolutely right the way we live matters greatly as far as how we will live for the eternal portion of our existence, so to speak. So your life is short. Make it count. Amen, all right, thank you for listening.

Speaker 3 35:06

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