88 - Making Promises to God

We often talk about keeping promises to one another — but what about promises to God? Is a vow the same as promising, or is that bargaining with God? We dig into the difference between making a sincere commitment to God and putting God to the test, and why “let your yes be yes” matters just as much in prayer as it does in everyday life.

We walk through key Bible passages on vows and promises, including Gideon’s fleece (Judges 6), Jesus rejecting the temptation to force a sign (Matthew 4), and the sobering warning of Ecclesiastes 5: when you vow, you must pay what you vowed. Along the way we talk about why rash “blank check” promises go sideways fast, what Jephthah and Herod teach us about thoughtless words, and how to build wise guardrails like capacity, intention, and alignment with God’s will.

Then the conversation turns personal: the vows we may already be making without realizing it. The Psalms are full of “I will” statements, and the songs we sing in worship can become real commitments if we mean what we say. We also explore baptism as a public covenant marker and how to think about spiritual goals, including New Year’s resolutions for Christians, without sliding into transactional faith.

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Transcript

Welcome And The Big Question

Nate 0:04

Welcome to the Exhorter Podcast, where we aim to stir up love and good works through bite-sized biblical discussion. Today we're gonna have a great conversation about Kyle.

Kyle 0:18

Insert topic here, making promises or vows to God. So we often talk about making promises to each other, and we know that Jesus taught us, let your yes be yes and your no be know that if you're gonna give your word to someone, that that should be sufficient, and we need to be people of our word and we need to do the things we say we're gonna do. So we know all of that. But more specifically, I want to talk in the context of making uh a pledge or a vow to God. Do you guys think that's something that that we should be doing? Do you guys have you guys ever done something like that where you made a promise to God like in a prayer? Or just what are your initial thoughts on that general concept? That's my negotiating with God.

Nate 1:00

If you do this for me, I will do this for you. I've done that before. Um, especially as a younger man in my 20s, I remember doing that um at least once. Um, there's something that I wanted so badly. Um, and uh, you know, it was kind of like if you do this for me, I will follow you with everything for the rest of my life.

Kyle 1:23

So something you've you've done that before. Is that something you think that was was the right thing to have done? Or do you look back on that and be like, well, young Nate didn't know better?

Nate 1:30

What would you Yeah, I don't think that that was I don't think that that was the right thing to do. Because the alternative to it is, well, if you don't do this, God, then I won't give it all to you. It's like yeah.

Kyle 1:39

So what if God doesn't respond the way you want? Right.

Nate 1:42

I guess you're off the hook from Yeah, that was a terrible, that's a terrible attitude. It it really doesn't matter. Um, God is God all the time, whether um whether I'm in a big fan of what he has done for me or not. Yeah, whether he does what you want. That's right, that's right. That's what it means.

Jon 1:57

I think that that's presumptuous to know that I know it's best for me. Or I'd be more worried about that coming off as blasphemous, I think myself. Well, you know, like like know better. I don't think I know better.

Signs And The Danger Of Testing God

Kyle 2:10

Yeah, so I I think a lot of people do that. We we see that in movies sometimes is you know, God, if you if you do this, I promise I will uh start giving more to charity, or I I promise I will stop drinking or stop swearing if you help me with this one thing. And so yeah, I think we're right to be cautioned against this. There are many scriptures that warn about putting God to the test. Uh, do any examples come to your guys' mind about people that that put God to the test? Well, didn't Gideon do that?

Nate 2:44

With the with the fleece and see, and that's an interesting one, yeah.

Kyle 2:49

And that's so an example of someone putting God to the test and God uh you know like I mean that's kind of yeah, God, God not only He doubles down, doesn't show anger like you you idiot and you know zap, I'm gonna zap you with lightning and get a different judge. No, yeah. In fact, he even uh and and there's there's multiple signs that that Gideon asked for. Yeah. Uh and and not only does he say, well, all right, and that's that's Judges chapter six, uh, by the way, for Gideon, God told Gideon that um I've got some work for you to do, and you're gonna you're gonna lead um your people in a in a fight against a superior army. And you could understand why Gideon was was a little apprehensive. So Gideon said to God, If you will save Israel by my hand, as you have said, look, I'll put a fleece wool on the threshing floor, and if there's dew on the fleece only and it is dry on the ground, then I shall know that you will save Israel by my hand, as you have said. And that happens. And the next day he's like, Okay, please don't get mad. What if I put the wool back and the ground is wet, but the fleece is dry? And God does that. So uh God did the the signs. Um, but the thing about Gideon, though, is God gives him those signs because you know, God asked a lot of him, and it's not like it's not quite the same thing as bargaining with God.

Nate 4:13

Well, didn't Moses do the same kind of thing when he said, I, you know, I'm not a good speaker. Don't make me talk. I can't do this. And then God finally says, Okay, fine, take your brother Aaron. Isn't that kind of how that goes? Negotiating negotiating with God. And he's kind of negotiating with God. Hey, God, I don't really fully trust what you say, so I just want to make sure that it's you, right? Like, you know, do on the fleece, and then I'm still not sure it's you, God, do on the ground. And maybe God is is treating Gideon as Gideon, because maybe Gideon is different than Moses or you know, somebody else. And and he says, All right, I know that if I'm really gonna make Gideon, you know, believe this, um, I he really needs to see these things.

Kyle 4:54

But then in chapter seven, uh, after he thins down the army, you know, that's uh watch, and those who who lap water like a dog send them home. Those who bring the water up their face, you keep them. And so he's got his 300. And so chapter seven, verse nine, it happened at the same night that the Lord said to him, Arise, go down against the camp, for I've delivered it into your hand. But if you are afraid to go down, go down to the camp with Hira, your servant, uh-huh, and you shall hear what they say. And he hears this dream from the Midianites. They had a dream about um was it being crushed? Um cake of barley bread tumbled into the camp and came to the tenth. This can only be uh a sign that that Gideon is gonna kill us all. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. So God basically woke him up and said, If you're worried, Gideon, I want you to go down. I want you to hear the dream. I want you to hear what the Midianites are thinking right now. They're afraid of you. Uh-huh. So that's not a sign that Gideon asked for. God's like, if you want more confirmation, so I I I feel like it's okay to want some sort of confirmation that when God asks us to do something, or you know, God asks us to make sacrifices for him, take up your cross and and and uh prioritize me above all else in this world. And so we don't get the benefit of asking for a sign or miracle, but do we not have evidence?

Jon 6:13

Well, and that's the thing is do we get the ability? I don't think we get the ability to do that because we have the Bible. We have the record of scripture. But did Gideon they didn't yeah, well, they didn't have something. So I think that contextually everything, you know, in the especially in the Old Testament, it makes sense that people would get signs. I mean, even in the New Testament with Jesus, people would have miracles and get signs because you were bringing a revelation, you know, and and it wasn't written out for them. But we have that, so I think us asking for those things feels like we're not really understanding the word, and we're not really well, the we're not seeing the answers we already have in the word.

Kyle 6:51

Yeah, and God was asking Gideon to do something that uh really seems impossible. Take your 300, and I think there was like 20,000 Midianite soldiers or something. Like that's not a fight that you are gonna win without supernatural intervention. So that's a little different versus in us bargaining with something I want, God do this thing for me, versus God saying, I got something for you to do, and it's it's a big ask. Like I'm I'm asking you a lot, and and it seems impossible to you, but with me it's possible. Well, boy, can I get some reassurance. Not quite the same thing as the kind of bargaining example you brought up first. That's interesting you brought up Gideon, because I didn't even I didn't even think about that example. Yeah. Um, and it is interesting that is one where God says, Okay, okay, yeah, I'll give you some signs, I'll give you some reassurance, Gideon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the the first example I thought of would be um Jesus being tempted by Satan in Matthew chapter four. So there's an example where Satan is is trying to tempt him to take the shortcut. So yeah, in in Matthew chapter four, um, the devil took him up to the holy city, set him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said, If you are the son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, he shall give his angels charge over you, and in their hands they shall bear you up, lest you dash your foot against a stone. Well, and and Jesus answered, Well, it's written, You shall not tempt the Lord your God, you shall not test him. Yeah. And so you can see that that that is a concern, and and Satan is just trying to say, Well, God said that his holy one, you know, he won't even strike his foot. So why don't you jump off the temple to see if he's proven himself or not? Yeah. So there there is the idea, the concern about putting God to the test. That is a very real concern we should have. And you can see that uh in the in the old testament as well, the uh the example that that Jesus quotes here um is from Deuteronomy chapter six, where that you shall not test the Lord your God, which is uh uh going back to uh an earlier example in Exodus with the waters of of uh Meribah. Um well there's Meribah and then the waters of is it massa? So Exodus 17. Yeah. So the the uh in Exodus chapter 17, they tested him, you know, give us give us water to drink because they tested the Lord by saying, Is the Lord among us or not? You brought us out here to die. They were questioning God's goodness. Oh, yeah. So I think that's the real problem in the example that Jesus references, not only in his own situation, that well, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna put God on the spot, um, you know, put him to the test as if I doubt something he's going to do, or I'm trying to force him into taking action. And that goes back to the example here where they basically challenge whether God was really good. You just, yes, we've seen miracles, we've seen literally the water parted at the Red Sea, we've seen you give us food miraculously, you've taken care of us, but we're still gonna doubt your goodness, and maybe you brought us here to die. So there is a concern about bargaining with God and putting him on the spot, and that is something that we should be cautious about.

Nate 10:14

Yeah.

Kyle 10:15

But I don't know if it's fair to say that it's it's blanket statement wrong to make a a pledge or or promise to God. Well, you better keep it.

Jon 10:26

I watched if you're gonna that's probably the the case, is if you're not really good at following through our promises, you don't do it to God.

Nate 10:35

Well, and and the other thing is um if our yes is to be yes and our no is to be no with others, why would it be any different with God? I think our yes would be yes with him and our no would be no. And I think I I look at promising as like, dude, I swear. I swear, dude, I'm gonna I'm gonna do this, man. Um, whereas if you just said, yeah, I'm gonna do that, and then you're a person who does that, what's the point in swearing or promising that you're going to do something? You're a person who does what you say you're gonna do.

Kyle 11:02

Well, and and to that point, you should keep your vow, uh, absolutely, because one of the main texts I've got is Ecclesiastes chapter five, beginning in verse four, it says that when you make a vow to God, and there's almost this assumption that you will it's going to happen, that it's something it's something that isn't out of the norm. Now, this isn't quite telling us that we need to be making vows to God, uh, but it does seem to take for granted that it's it's going to happen at times, or that it's not an odd or nor or abnormal thing to happen. So when you make a vow to God, do not delay to pay it. For he has no pleasure in fools. Pay what you have vowed. Better not to vow than to vow and not pay. So it I think it's telling us that it's optional, but again, it sort of assumes that it's something people are going to be doing, and that there's rules that govern it. So, what do you guys take away from what are some maybe rules we might extrapolate from this text in Ecclesiastes 5 that that would maybe govern um our use of of vows or pledges to God?

Nate 12:13

I think what you said is a good point. It doesn't say if you make a vow to God, it says when you make a vow to God, do not delay to fulfill it. So you you just made the point like, hey, this is something that's kind of expected.

Jon 12:27

And I I guess that's when what does that look like now? Because I think that's I'm having a hard time connecting to the to the application of like what this would look like, especially if it's I'm supposed to be doing a vow that I'm not doing right now. Maybe I am and I'm just not thinking of it as a promise.

Psalms And Worship As Commitments

Kyle 12:43

Um well, maybe that's what we should maybe we should jump ahead right now and just think about what would be some things that we would what would be some things that we should promise to to God. Let me let me read a couple of examples um mostly from the Psalms. We look at Psalm 7 and verse 17. I will praise the Lord according to his righteousness and will sing praise to the name of the Lord most high.

Nate 13:14

He's saying, I'm going to do something.

Kyle 13:16

So it's not like some sort of formula, like I solemnly swear I will do this, but is that not uh and psalms are essentially just a recorded version of a prayer. So is that not essentially the same concept? You're you're declaring to God your intentions for what you will do. Uh Psalm 30 and verse 12. To the end that my glory may sing praise to you and not be silent. Oh Lord my God, I will give thanks to you forever. So that's that's a pretty big promise right there. I will give praise to you, I will give thanks to you forever. It's an acknowledgement that God, you are always good to me, so I will always be grateful to you. So, I mean, giving of thanks is something that the psalmists, I've got a bunch of other examples here too, that we could look at, but it's pretty common in the Psalms for them to say, I will give praise to you, I will give thanks to you. And on that idea of praise and worship, you know, that that's in there quite a bit too. Like in Psalm 9 and verse 2, I will be glad and rejoice in you, I will sing and praise your name, O Most High. Uh, what about the idea of obedience? Uh, but but in the 23rd Psalm, look at verse 6 surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

Nate 14:39

Well, and he says, I will fear no evil. Like he's making these um what do we call those? Just just statements. This is what it's gonna be.

Jon 14:48

And honestly, I I think we do this a lot when we sing. Yeah, I was thinking about singing too. What do we say we're going to be doing with this? I was just thinking about songs that we that we sing. We we make statements, we make professive statements about um I will call upon the let's go with that one. And and that maybe that is is everything we say to God and everything we say about God a promise?

Kyle 15:19

Well, if we if it has the opposite is that it's dishonest, we don't mean what we say, we shouldn't say it. Isn't that a problem?

Nate 15:27

Yeah, I just I guess it's just a way of thinking about that. Is um does this mean songs that I don't agree with? I don't have to sing. Maybe you don't want to lie. I've got a mansion over the hill topic.

Jon 15:38

But with that one, is is that one is I will call upon the Lord. So when I have struggles in life, am I convicted? And you know, am I telling God things get tough? I'm not gonna try to figure this out on my own. I'm gonna call upon you and have you and pray to you and have you help me. And if you're singing that with not genuine, you know, and you're thinking thinking, well, I'm not gonna really do that, then I think yeah, you you'd be lying. And I think that that's not um true. So I just I I never really thought about those being promises uh or vows, but I can see it having the same semblance if if we're if you have an intent to do something and don't do it, is that you know, is that honest?

Kyle 16:21

Well, or Psalm 22, 22, I will declare your name to my brethren in the midst of the assembly I will praise you. Um in the midst of the assembly, isn't that a promise that I will I'll go to church? I mean, to use New Testament vernacular, but the assembly would be gathering at the temple. He's saying, That's what I will do. You know, and those three pilgrimages, I will do it when the people are there, I will be there.

Nate 16:45

Uh-huh. That that's kind of a commitment. Yeah. And and the the scriptures tell us, um, we'll give an account for every every careless word we speak. Uh when I when I sing. And and I don't think careless means that it's intentionally uh a word we don't uh we're intentionally being evil with what we say. I think careless is I'm just not thinking about it.

Kyle 17:09

I mean, if we think about our relationship with God in covenant terms, He makes promises to us. And isn't the act of baptism a declaration that we're dying to our old self and I will dedicate my life to you? You died for me, so I will die for you, and now I will live and give my life. I'll take up my cross and make sacrifices. And so isn't isn't baptism itself a declaration of our intentions to belong to God? Just like the psalmists say is, you know, I will, I will keep your paths, I will walk in in your statutes, I'll be, I'll be yours forever. It's it's a declaration, it's it's a promise, it's a commitment. So the the concept, I think, far from bargaining with God, uh and and the idea of putting God to the test, the concept is there in scripture about we we make promises to God. And I think we need to be careful about not bargaining with God and and not trying to put him to the test or put him on the spot, like God, you better deliver in the way I think you should, in the timing I think you should, or else, you know, or else I'll walk away. The idea is that God is has been good to us, and that's what we see in the Psalms. You have been good to me, so I will be yours forever. God, you've already done enough to earn a lifetime of my praise and worship and gratitude and service. So it's not like we're demanding God to do something, it's more an acknowledgement, you've done more than I could ever ask for. So I am, I am pledging that that I am yours. So let's go back to now that we have some ideas of of what we could be promising, what what are some pledges we could be making? Uh again, how does that text in Ecclesiastes 5 maybe maybe govern this process a little bit? Uh and again, for sake of clarity, uh, when you vow a vow to God, do not delay paying it, for he has no pleasure in fools. Pay what you vow. Yeah. Better to better not to vow than to vow and not pay. All right. So what are some what are some maybe principles we could we could take from that to help us govern less is more? Less is more. Yeah, like when when your kids promise to do something, or sometimes I promise to my wife, I say I'll do it. And if I don't do it, then it and I feel like I have to double down and say, Well, I really mean it this time, or Yeah.

Nate 19:37

That's that's when promises become necessary, or I feel like become necessary, is when I don't do what I said I was gonna do the first time. Oh, well, I promise I'll do it this time. Well, you didn't do it last time, you know. So why do you need to make a promise? Just do it.

Foolish Vows And Real Consequences

Kyle 19:51

So I I think this text in Ecclesiastes 5 suggests that uh we certainly need to be careful uh because you said less is more. And so I I think we need to be mindful about not just making that something we say without really thinking through it. So that that's the idea here is you need to think through it before you do it. You need to have some thoughtfulness to it. Um, you know, and there's some examples to like Jephthah, you know, you brought up Gideon in Judges. Well, another example in Judges would be Jephthah in Judges chapter 11. You know, that's that's where he made that promise. Whatever whatever comes through his door. Um oh, he would sacrifice to the Lord, and then it was his daughter. Yeah. He made a vow to the Lord and said, If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whatever comes out from the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the Ammonites shall be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. And there's a lot of debate about what exactly he meant by that and whether she was dedicated just as in like she'll never get married again, yeah, versus like he actually offered her. I I have a hard time thinking that he offered her as a burnt offering and God was okay with that, but that that's a debated topic. We won't talk about. We'll do that in a future episode. I promise, I promise we'll do that. But but it shows the foolishness of Jephthah, really didn't think that one through. Yeah. And we need to be really careful about that. And just as a policy, I think I've mentioned this in previous episodes. I don't write blank checks to people, and I think we need to be careful about that. Uh, or or like Herod, uh, saw a pretty girl dancing and lost his mind and said, I'll give you anything you want up to half the kingdom. Yeah. Well, the head of John the Baptist on a silver plate. Um, so don't don't promise someone. Can you keep a secret? Oh, yeah. Well, okay, that's a doozy. Uh yeah, I need to talk to people about that one, or the police might have to get involved. Like, yeah, yeah. Sometimes you you know, I'm I'm not gonna promise something that I I can't I haven't thought through all the ramifications of it. So yeah, uh, at least you know that's one. rule there is is we need to think through um be thoughtful about it be intentional be purposeful because he does say it's better to not vow than to vow and not pay it like if if you don't have the intention of actually carrying through what you commit and promise to God so you really need you really do need to think about it. Maybe another thing to consider is do you have the do you have the capacity to carry out what you're promising? Oh that's a good one. Are you promising something you can't deliver or write writing a check that you can't um make good on yeah you're gonna do it to my Top Gun Rap. Uh no hmm if I had seen Top Gun I would know are you kidding me I'm not I've never seen Top Gun this is so put that on the list put that on the list man because I'm like as sad as when you just died I don't what is nothing so yeah don't don't make a promise that you don't have the power to to to keep like especially if it involves like I don't know like if you're making a promise that involves someone else like I can't control what they do. Like don't don't put yourself on the on the on the hook for things that you cannot control. So I think that would be another thought there is is it has to be something that you actually have the capacity to to deliver on. And certainly I think another rule you might think is do you intend and this is related to thoughtfulness do you intend to actually do this?

Nate 23:31

Oh sometimes we we say things to get our kids off our back or get people off our back.

Jon 23:36

We don't actually mean it which is why that's why you always say I will think about it. Yeah right right and never which really means no but uh that's why we're not saying that's what my parents always said and I always I always translate that into uh no so New Year's resolutions should we not even bother well wouldn't that be a form of commitment I think if if you if it's something and I will say one final rule is from just what I what I sort of gathered from Ecclesiastes 5 and thinking about how do I apply this to when I make promises or commitments to God, it needs to be in alignment with his will.

Kyle 24:15

So it can't be something that is entirely self-serving or entirely in my interests and I just God is I reduce him to just my wish granting fairy in the sky you know some genie in the lamp like I can't we're not supposed to treat God that way. And so if what I'm asking is either just entirely self-serving or it's contrary to his will so I need to make sure I I I'm understanding his will that's a big issue. So I'd say when when we have those those sort of guideposts in place I think that would help us think about New Year's resolutions in that light that that sometimes I put something up there that I I don't really intend. I would like to I want to read a book every month. I I would like to do that but do I have a a serious intention does that necessarily mean that that is a vow you have made to God and so I think if we are going to make it something that is spiritual emphasis and something that we we want to commit ourselves to doing I think we just need to be thoughtful about it first. Is it in my capacity to do this? Is it according to God's will is it something he would want me to do and do I intend have I thought this through and also we're not putting God on the spot that if you do this for me then I do this it's we we recognize I think we make commitments because of what God has already done for us. Yeah so I think with those with those guideposts in place I think I think New Year's resolutions is a really good way to put this to the test and and maybe you've got your personal goals and whether you intend to or whether you think it'll actually happen or not that's that's fine. But maybe you've got your more serious spiritual resolutions and you need to think through them very thoroughly. And I think it's totally acceptable so what what we read in the Psalms is that very often in their prayers they are praying and making commitments that extend beyond the the prayer itself. So I'm I'm saying here's I will praise you I will give thanks forever I will I will follow you forever. I'm yours forever I will praise your name among the people I will praise your name in the assembly in their prayer they're saying what they will do beyond the amen of that particular prayer. So I think that that is a custom that maybe we should become a little more accustomed to doing ourselves so long as we've considered the wisdom of Ecclesiastes five and and thought about those particular steps.

Nate 27:00

So well that really got me thinking about making uh just setting goals in general um are these uh should I be committing these things to God? If so which ones um are all of my goals commitments to God um you know that just some of those questions I think it's good that it it spurred those thoughts within me but it but boy I'll tell you what if I were to take let's say one of my new goals for this year and say God I am going to do this to the best of my ability I think that would give that one more weight than all the others.

Kyle 27:41

Yeah and so at the very least is it does I I what I want you to take away from this episode is maybe some guidance on how to do this maybe a realization that this is something we do. Like I said like John pointed out we sing songs that tell of our commitments baptism itself in my mind is a declaration of our intent to follow God and fortunately since none of us are perfect we have an advocate with the Father who is perfect. So if you've gotten off track of your commitments he offers us a way to to to get back on track to to not get sidetracked or not lose sight of of the end goal and that's that's the beauty of grace and and mercy and forgiveness as long as we continue to put our faith in in Jesus and the power of his blood.

Baptism As A Public Life Pledge

Jon 28:28

I I was talking to someone the other day about like the idea and the practices in Catholicism of like inceniras and dedications and stuff like this. And it kind of reminds me of those are very specific traditions that they've designed as vows to God. And that's it's a very formal thing that when I think about making a vow to God, I think about those kinds of things and we don't really practice those things. So I you know it other than baptism which we don't generally use language as into do you vow to God or do you promise to you know like we we don't we we do that at when weddings that's what a confession is I yeah but I mean do you believe when I when I when I'm asked to study with sometimes we get a a young young man or young woman who's very young and that's uh that we did we did a podcast on that didn't we about how young is too young to be baptized.

Nate 29:17

Yeah.

Kyle 29:17

So when I get those situations, you know moms or dads say can you can you study with my child or maybe we get somebody who's not young in age but they are very new to to the faith or very new to believing in God I don't think you need to go years and years of study and on this this journey before you are worthy to be baptized but there are a few things that and my my requirements that's too strong a term but you know my minimum requirements to baptize someone just personally might be different from some other preachers. Yeah. But for me I want them to understand a few basic things is and one of them is I show them scriptures like Romans 6 where you are you you you die, you're buried, you rise to a new life. I show them examples in the book of Acts of baptism where they repent and their lives are different and changed after. So that is one of the very few things I want people that I I in my mind I need to know that they know well the simplest baptism represents a change in your life and a commitment to follow God.

Asking God To Keep His Promises

Nate 30:22

The simplest analogy is the physical analogy you're taking a bath I mean that's kind of a maybe a um minimum way of putting it but you're literally taking a bath you are you were dirty and now you are getting clean. So live as a clean person not as a dirty person. So I guess in that way you know baptism is making a a declaration that way you know I haven't necessarily thought of baptism as making a declaration I've thought of confession as you know confessing Jesus as Lord and master as making a declaration. But I see um where um when people see that you are baptized because there is a public nature to baptism um then that is having an impression on those people hey this person has committed their lives they are they they want to be clean they want to be new.

Kyle 31:15

So Psalm 51 I think is a really good example to maybe drive this point home is if if we're gonna ask God to do something, I I think it's not necessarily putting him to the test in a way where you need to act in the way I want you to but more like Elijah at Mount Carmel, he prayed for the rain to stop and it stopped that wasn't a like something Elijah pulled out of thin air that's something God said he would do back in Deuteronomy as a curse. And if you turn to idols and disobey me and Elijah's just saying God can you please do what you said you would do so it's not necessarily putting God to the test like do what I want you to do but when God promised I also I'm not sure it's wrong to to ask and say God will you do what you promised I've sinned you said you would forgive me will you forgive me you're asking him to do what he promised to do. So in Psalm 51 David says restore to me the joy of your salvation and uphold me by your generous spirit God will you do that for me then I will teach transgressors your ways and sinners shall be converted to you because I'll have a reason to declare your goodness if you forgive me like you said you will and restore to me joy, which is the opposite of what is feeling in in this moment says the result of that is I will go and tell sinners deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed O God, the God of my salvation and my tongue shall sing aloud of your righteousness so it's it's not necessarily putting God to the test in the in the way that we should be concerned about but I think there is room too to sort of put God on the spot for what he said he will do.

Nate 33:00

You know forgive me of of my sins and and restore the joy and then I'll go tell others about your grace and about your mercy and your goodness and your awesomeness and yeah I don't think he's making it so much as like an if-then statement like Lord if you don't do this I'm not going to go do these things just saying like man if if I had um the joy of your salvation within my heart then then this is what's gonna come out of that you know I'm I'm gonna want to teach transgressors your your ways I'm gonna want to turn sinners back to you um so I don't think he's like making a threat there like if you don't do this then I'm not gonna I think he's just saying like look at the here's what the outcome would be if if you did this for me.

Jon 33:41

It reminds me of when we did our we had conversations about lamenting it kind of like in an un in an uncomfortable place to question or you know God and to or be angry with God. Lament towards God. Or we took some vent to those feelings of despair and we talked about that and that was kind of an uncomfortable place of we we challenged the idea whether that was scriptural or non scriptural should you pray to God that way well probably no but are you going to feel that way at times probably yes and and that's that's why when I think about this that's kind of how I think about that is I it feels it feels uncomfortable to question whether God would actually follow through on the commandments he has made I should trust and have faith and belief that he doesn't need me to request that for him to do that. He is he is just and he is righteous altogether so he will follow through on his commitments. I I should have faith in knowing that but that doesn't mean we have tons of different examples in the Bible about how someone like might be in a process of uh not not challenging that one but also not challenging it but um you're human so you're you're requesting that they follow through on that and maybe it's more appropriate in that saying is as we sing that song in in your time you know um we understand I understand you will follow through on your promises is that now um is that later I have believe in you I have faith in you I know you will it would I would love if it was now um I yeah because I'm struggling but what Paul prayed I don't think that challenges him is Paul Paul prayed desperately three different times at least for the thorn in the flesh to be taken away and when he didn't get what he wanted he didn't take the attitude of fine I'll I'll take my ball and go home you know I'm not gonna play with you anymore.

Kyle 35:46

If you didn't do what I wanted then I'm not gonna do what you want me to do.

Jon 35:49

Well Jesus is a good example of that Paul learned a greater lesson. Let this cut pass from me you know it's and it's not like he knew it didn't need to be him he didn't understand but as a human that doesn't he didn't want to have to go through that. Yeah that doesn't mean that we we he expects us to sit in the pain and the turmoil and be okay with it all the time he understands it the because that that's what makes it that's what makes it a struggle you know yeah and I so I guess the one one of the points I was trying to make was is when God said he would do something for us when when he makes promises in the scriptures to ask him and request of him to do what he's promised I don't think that's wrong.

Kyle 36:30

No and I think that's where we get where where the Hebrew writer talks about we approached we boldly approached the throne of grace we can have confidence that when God promised he delivers on his promises and that that's what drives our promises we need to be faithful because God is faithful in what he promised.

Jon 36:49

Yeah it just makes me I guess in in the in the the beginning of this it just makes me very uncomfortable promising things to God because I know you know I know I have that um that ability to not fall through you know on and I'm human. And so I think that that just in general it was hard for me to kind of jump into this conversation you know understanding what that's like but also putting it putting it into as we're talking about songs and stuff like this putting it into perspective of when we I don't realize that I I make probably promises to God all the time. Sorry that's just me thinking off the head of my head I yeah in the beginning of this is kind of hard for me to really I don't I don't I don't think I say these words to a lot and I don't hear people say you know God if you will I then I will I mean the the if and but statements always feel disingenuoine to me because if it's good for you to do the first time you just do it. You know if you know you should do it why is there can it be fair to say if you do this then I will but even if you don't I will I wish we don't accept that from our loved ones when it says if you did this I would do this we have to love them you know like if a if a if a husband and wife did that you made a vow to that person whether they uphold their end of that vow doesn't mean that you get to shirk your responsibilities that's my point is is you know God if you do this I I will do this. But even if you don't I will still praise you like but the the idea of if if then statements means it's contingent upon something. And I I feel like that's probably it's just our maybe it's our words that we're not you know that we're we're not squaring in the same way but like I feel like it would be unright for me to tell my wife if you loved me the way I wanted you to love me, I'll love you back. Like I don't think that's my right. I have a duty to love my wife no matter what. And so that's why I think it's uncomfortable those if and statements because they feel contingent. And maybe that's just because we use them in that way or maybe I'm thinking about it wrong.

Nate 39:05

I don't know. Yeah when I think about this whole topic I just I keep coming back to that passage that talks about let your yes be yes and your no be no if you're gonna do something um and you're gonna tell someone you're gonna do something do it.

Jon 39:24

Am I wrong in that Kyle? Am I it it feels a contingent statement like that. So maybe it's just the the statement's wrong or I'm thinking about it wrong but it doesn't feel like that's the right way to speak to God.

Nate 39:39

Well I think sometimes there are em you know we're in emotional states. You look at the Psalms my God, my God why have you forsaken me? Did the did the psalmist really think that God had left him? Or my God, you know, why why do you hide your face when I'm in trouble? I'm paraphrasing there. But do you think that they really believed that God was hiding their face? Like isn't that kind of an accusation of God like hey God you're hiding from me right now isn't that presumptuous to say and yet the psalmist says it is the is this everything we read in the Psalms is that a template for what we should do or that is that just a re an account of what David did? Well I think it's a template of our humanity.

Jon 40:22

But I mean should we should we say feel think and act do we look at this you know those examples in the Psalms as the way we should talk to God all the time are all of the Psalms all the time are they always doing that all the time I think that that's the exception and not the rule.

Kyle 40:40

I I I'm just trying to point out that saying do this then I will do this is not the same as do this and if you don't then I won't oh yeah those are two different ideas because that's that's what Psalm 51 is restore to me the joy of your salvation then I will I will praise he's not saying that's why I'm thinking that my brain is conflating the two because that's how we use it.

Jon 41:06

That's how we use those statements. That's how we use that vernacular the psalm's maybe using it in a way that is it's not contingent you know upon the action of someone else.

Kyle 41:18

But the way we use that vernacular in everyday speech if I were to say that to my boss, hey if you'll give me a raise I'll work harder naturally I that would be the case but you don't say that because that's yeah but I also I I'm not sure that in Psalm 51, I'm not sure it's David saying I don't know if you will so but but I'm asking I think David is pretty confident that he will restore joy that you know because he says you're the God of my salvation. So yeah I I don't know that it's David genuinely saying uh you know and I'm just I'm throwing a Hail Mary here.

Nate 41:53

And is all of poetry logically literal? Like I don't I don't and I think psalms are poetic in um I'm not a scholar on this you know asterisk by what I'm saying right now. Um but the psalms are not meant to be in every case perfectly literal but it they are meant to express a reality. They are meant to express an emotion and what what causes emotions? Life. Life causes emotions. And sometimes we're angry with God about the an outcome of something does that make it good it doesn't necessarily make it good but might make it true. And can we not talk to him about that? Well I guess I'm not saying like Job is a template for we should always come to God angry and frustrated but when we are angry and frustrated can we come to him and say why? I I don't understand. You do I don't am I not allowed to say that he already knows what I'm thinking anyways. So by me praying it how does that change what God knows?

Kyle 42:51

Well in David in Psalm 51 David is is it's a natural response isn't there a reason why we praise God yeah because he is good isn't there a reason why we why we serve God and sacrifice for God because he sacrificed for us there's a there's a there's a reason for it there's there's a cause uh you know some causality there and I think that's what David is acknowledging because he does go on in in the next verse say you do not desire sacrifice or else I would give it David is saying there's nothing there's nothing I can give to bribe you or bargain with you to be on my side. Yeah I'm asking you to be on my side and I think what he's saying is I have confidence that you will be on my side I have confidence that you will forgive me though I have I am in the wrong but if it was sacrifice you wanted I'd give it but I have nothing I have nothing to barter with here. So I think that's David's acknowledgement here is it's not if you do this then I will do this. It's more an acknowledgement of I'm asking you to do something but I know that you promised you will do it and I have confidence you'll do it and the result of this this is what I'm committing I will do the right thing because I know you'll do the right thing.

Avoid Contingent Faith In Hard Times

Jon 43:58

Yeah I think we'll help me come on board to that thinking is if we highlight what this is not saying because I feel like once again I'm reserved to to adopt that because of the thought of well what would be what would be a bad example of that when if I'm used to doing that when when life really hands me a struggle am I going to inappropriately use that? Like what does that look like? What does that look like when we when we use that kind of promise and or like when it when it obviously when when our heart feels it's contingent right I mean obviously that's we're saying that maybe the verse does isn't contingent. It's not saying that it's just how we generally use it but um is it is it there's there a danger to that like there is everything I mean when you use it appropriate inappropriately but do you know what I'm saying?

Nate 45:08

Like if I if I start making promises to God like I'm I'm gonna I I'm now on a slippery slope and everything I say is going to be a promise to God and and I'm obviously not going to fulfill some of those like well think think about Hannah if you give me a child I will dedicate him to you.

Kyle 45:29

And then she did.

Jon 45:32

What happened if Hannah never got a child but she did but what happened if it was not God's purpose for her to have a child and she spent the rest of her life oh just like just like angry at God. God told Paul, no I'm not taking the thorn and the flesh away it doesn't mean that Paul then can say well I'm done being an apostle but can you see that happening today if someone said God if you take this thorn of you know if you take the struggle away from your meet you're right that is the wrong approach to this that's what I'm trying to to to flush out here is I think it it can be a right approach but I can also see when it would be wrong. And that's what I'd be afraid of people doubling down on this making vows and promises to God expecting a a return that maybe God doesn't have him plan for them.

Kyle 46:18

And if not then it it ruined their their their love for God you know that that's where you do need to have that acknowledgement of your not my will but yours like um you know some related to Hannah's prayers I could imagine plenty of Christians saying uh God please give me a uh a husband please give me a wife and and if you do I will be I will be the best I will be the best husband I will be the best father if I am blessed with children. You know I I could picture people praying those kinds of prayers and if God doesn't grant you what you want well it doesn't mean you get to turn your back on God because his will not yours but I don't think that's wrong and and you're saying like if I get if I get a wife well then I'm not gonna be a good husband.

Jon 47:07

But you're coming at that from a mature emotional perspective. If you have a new Christian that maybe does not have that insight in that maturity I think that that's it's a danger that could be a dangerous part of growth Nate said that she made bargains like that when he was younger but that's part of that's part of growing and maturing.

Nate 47:25

I I just I thought the same thing you know as as a young man um I thought why did you not answer this prayer? And you know I look back now and I go well that was presumptuous of me. Who am I to say that this thing would have been best for me. And so you know and that really highlighted for me the idea of not my will be done but your will and it's in your time. And so now you know I I try to whenever I ask for things from God always have in the back of my mind in my heart like that may not be what he wants for me, what is best for me or when is best for me.

Kyle 48:04

And I I would say these aren't meant to be contingent based as in yeah yeah you know God if you help me out of this yeah out of this jam I'm in then I'll stop swearing. Well you should probably just do that anyway. I know that you're not you're not offering to do something so and God if you give me a wife I will be a good husband. Well what if you never vowed that and you get married well I can be I can be a terrible husband because I never promised God. So you're promising to do things to me it's less about saying like here's a contingency that that if you do this then I'll do this like it's a bargain it's a formula it's more saying God you've made promises to me and I'm I'm gonna make promises to do the things that I know I should be doing for you. Well and that's probably it's more about the commitment rather than the bargain.

Jon 48:48

Then I think you can correct it in the order of operations. I know but it sounds okay Pim DOS. God I want to reaffirm my commitment to to loving you and doing your word I pray that you will increase my faith and increase my knowledge and increase my ability to withstand the struggles in my life. So the order of operations there is when you lead with the thing that you are are knowing that you need to do and whether or not he does in his time you're still going to do what you're still going to do it because that's what you're promising. But a lot of these usually say Lord if you do this I will do this and I think that that's maybe where we can get dangerous in our order of operations. I think that you're right making that commitment and promise of what you know you need to do first and then pray for God's grace to abound in in blessings I think that that makes sense.

Kyle 49:44

And maybe that's the wording like in Psalm 51 David never says if then he says restore to me the joy of salvation I will teach transgressors your way create in me a clean heart oh God and renew a steadfast spirit.

Jon 50:00

Do you think that not everyone thinks about those things right and so if you're if you're starting to adopt the same the kind of language around how we talk about like I gave the example of you know my to my boss um it would probably even be bad for me to say hey boss I uh I I promise to do so much better at work and increase in my sales and to do this I would hope that I could get a a raise at the end of the month that would still make sense but hey if you pay me more I'll increase my sales doesn't and so I think that that's just the way we take the language and apply it in our everyday life I think that that's I just I would want someone to not place contingencies upon things. And I think that you can do that. I guess that's why it's kind of a hard subject for me to to adopt because I see it that way.

Nate 50:46

Yeah the the yeah the contingent language if then and if not then not.

Jon 50:51

And I think it's probably because you know I've heard people struggle with oh God is not answering asking God for things that they haven't been answered and then changing the relationship with God. And I think I just want to like what are you putting in place as failsafes to to make sure that you don't go down that road and doubt God. I maybe it is just the order in which we we we make petition.

Kyle 51:16

The majority of the examples in the Psalms are are more along the lines of acknowledging and praising something good God has done and declaring and committing to here's what I will do in response to that. In response to that. I think that's a yeah that's a great we do need to be very cautious about anything that sounds like bargaining. We don't have we don't have we don't have any chips to bargain with here.

An Anchor Vow And Final Takeaways

Nate 51:38

And just always have the right uh heart and attitude of God I'm gonna ask you for this thing. I I'm I want to do whatever this thing is but ultimately your will be done.

Kyle 51:51

I mean I just I remember the example of a really good friend of mine when I lived in Utah and he had had some really difficult experiences suffered some really deep cutting losses and had a lot of grief in his heart but he said that when he and he had a he was baptized I I think in his late teens or twenties you know didn't didn't grow up going to church like I did. And so he said when I when I was baptized I promised God I was never going to leave him and after all the hard things he experienced like that that confidence he had but it wasn't a self-assured confidence but it was it was just a a grit and a determination that no matter what happens no matter what hardship or pain I experience I am never leaving God. And to hear someone just firmly make that declaration that that had an impact on me and and that obviously had an impact on him. Yeah that that stood with him that I've said it and I am not going to be made a liar he he he he put an anchor he put an anchor in yeah I so it to wrap up this episode I would just say when we look at commitments look at the examples of the Psalms I will dwell with you forever you know I'm I'm I'm yours forever I'm not leaving you I will praise you uh to all the peoples I will tell others about you I will declare you to everyone that's a commitment we should make um I will praise you uh in the assembly I'll be there at church I'll be there with your people um I will give thanks to you because you are always good to me and so those are commitments and and things we can make promises and I think the impact of that is not so much that we're bargaining or trying to get God on our side but it's I think the bigger impact is about when we tell ourselves that it's it's not like we're promising to do something extra but it's more that I'm gonna do what I should be doing as as a redeemed child of God. My life belongs to him and I made that vow when I was baptized and I'm gonna keep committing myself to to it and renew that commitment through uh through these prayers and and through the way I talk to God.

How To Reach Us And Support

Jon 54:02

Well thanks Kyle for that chat and and this topic I think as you you said poignantly I think it's just really important that we mean what we say and we be cautious with our words but committing to God and everything in our lives is definitely what makes us closer to him and uh really appreciate the conversation. If you found this valuable we'd love to hear from you and you can reach us online you can email us look at the show notes reach out to us and let us know if there's other topics that you'd like to hear otherwise uh yeah share it and like it and do all that stuff online. We appreciate you listening. Thank you. Did did I conflate the bargaining too much in there or was it already there? Like I feel like that's where I was hearing and maybe and I don't know that that's where you were no it added I think it added a good degree I just didn't want to pull away from it but I do appreciate the idea that I'm I'm now thinking about my songs. I'm thinking about just the even the New Year's uh resolutions and things as like actual hey there's a lot more weight to that like hey you know if I'm gonna vow to do something that I think is good then for him I need to follow through. Yep. Which is why I won't make any promises to my kids. I will just um feel like that's I feel like I don't want to let them down. So which is why I never make promises. I so that I don't disappoint.

Nate 55:22

See how that works I bet I can get you I bet I can get you promising for the end of the day. I give you two to one odds what is that promise? I bet 10 to one I bet I can make you it's it's from that no I don't bet. I bet I can get you betting before the end of the day nah two to one odds no ten to one odds yeah okay okay yeah I got you I don't know how to get you I don't know what I'm gonna get there with you sorry Kyle um where did we go how did we get on that yeah I don't know okay