Episode 11 - Redefining Biblical Submission: A Journey from Servitude to Respect in Marriage

Ever been told that submission in marriage means blind obedience and servitude? I once bought into this narrative, feeling stifled, unheard, and misrepresented in my marriage. But that's not the true biblical definition of submission. Join me as I debunk this myth, drawing from both personal experiences and the teachings I grew up with. We'll journey together through Ephesians 5:21-25, challenging the distorted narratives often plastered on Christian marriage platforms. Plus, I'll take a moment to share why Father Mike Schmitz's video on biblical submission is a must-watch.

Biblical submission in marriage – it's a controversial concept that has been twisted to mean one-sided servitude, particularly for women. But, we're here to set the record straight. Listen in as we dissect the harmful repercussions of misinterpreting this biblical principle. I share my own path from passive acceptance to active questioning, leading to a deeper understanding of biblical teachings. This isn't merely about debunking long-held beliefs; it's an invitation to unlearn, relearn, and create healthier interpretations that respect both men and women. Prepare for a riveting discussion set to challenge the status quo of biblical submission and marriage.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

Hello and welcome to All Our Little Messes, a podcast focused on healing through intentional conversations about parenting, relationships, religion and more. I am your host, veronica Winrod, and I'm so happy to have you here listening in on my thoughts today. I hope you enjoy this episode. Hello and welcome back to All Our Little Messes. Today we're going to be talking about biblical submission and marriage. This is going to be a little bit of a shorter podcast.

Speaker 1: 0:41

This week, I realize I've been going over like 45 minutes, sometimes up to an hour when I get going, so I'm going to try to shorten this one down to around 30 minutes or so. So, yeah, let's just get right into it. So I believe, like from what I have seen in my life and you know I've only been around for like 30 years here, so I haven't been around very long compared to some but from what I've seen and like understood in Christian and Catholic society is that you know the idea of biblical submission and marriage is very distorted and twisted, and what I mean by that is that they take Ephesians 5, and that's verses 21 through 24 or 21 through 25, depending and they try to shorten them or compact them down into just the verse that talks about women's submission and marriage and they completely ignore, or just, you know, glass over the parts of those verses that really point towards mutual submission and marriage. And so I kind of wanted to address that because, like I have done a couple interviews this week, when I first came back from a wedding and like during the wedding the pastor there was talking about during like the homily he was talking about like the wife's submission and marriage and the way he phrased it was just like very shocking to me. Like he phrased it as subjugation and obedience. It wasn't even submission, it was subjugation and obedience, like likening that the relationship between a husband and wife to that of like a child and parent. And it was just so strange to me and like it honestly made me a little angry Like I actually almost got up and just like walked out until after the homily was over, just was like this is ridiculous, but that understanding and that phrasing of submission within marriage is actually not all that uncommon. And like the more I look into it, the more I see that like people view submission, a woman's submission in marriage towards her husband, as a form of obedience and I feel like Christians and Catholics need to really move away from that understanding, because it is not the biblical understanding of, you know, submission in marriage at all and there are actually like quite a few articles out there.

Speaker 1: 3:32

There's some really good videos and podcasts on like the true biblical definition of submission in marriage. One video I would actually definitely recommend people watch is the video by Father Mike Schmitz. It's on the Ascension Presents YouTube channel but he talks about the actual like biblical definition of it and I thought I'll link it. I'll link it below for you guys to watch yourselves, but it was just so beautiful for me and it like it cleared up so much for me because, like when my husband and I first got married, like we really struggled, because I have been raised with obedience and all things, like a wife is supposed to obey her husband in all things, and there was no room for questions, there was no room for discussion.

Speaker 1: 4:35

Basically what he says goes essentially and so that understanding of submission, like in that, that aspect of it and the fact that you know I thought that meant that you know when a husband says we're gonna go eat here, I wasn't allowed to question it, even though I have my own separate wants, needs, desires. I, because I was a woman and because I was a wife, I had to basically silence those needs and silence those wants and pretend they didn't exist because, you know, the husband said, no, this is where I want to go. And like I saw that as, like I honestly saw that as like this holy expression of humility and and respect within marriage and like, for the longest time, like it bothered me and I felt that it was wrong, but I couldn't quite pinpoint why. And from about the time I was, you know, 1718, around the time, like my parents started realizing basically, oh, she's gonna, you know, be old enough to get married soon, I was given books to read that really kind of went into that whole culture there where, you know, the woman submits to the man kind of thing. A woman is of the weaker sex, the woman is of lower understanding, she is. This is something that I see on Twitter.

Speaker 1: 6:13

You know, all those incels not incel, yeah, incel those incels and those, those so-called Christian marriage accounts and stuff where they talk about women having basically like a weaker understanding and they, you know, they really base that on the fact that that Eve was tempted by the snake and she, you know, fell to his temptation Without even realizing that Adam did the same thing. Like we're just gonna skip over that part because it's all Eve's fault, right? So, like I, my, my whole understanding of womanhood and being a good wife was based on woman being weak and woman needing to be obedient. And so that understanding coupled with, like my, my personality, which I have a very I have a very strong personality, and I have been told that I'm very overwhelming I come across very overwhelming sometimes because, like I don't know how to be tactful sometimes. So, like, when I'm thinking something, sometimes it just comes out and that's actually something I'm working on with my therapist and you know, like learning to be more socially aware and like more understanding of people and things like that.

Speaker 1: 7:43

But like it was very difficult for me to reconcile that because, like I, I these books like tried to teach me how to basically manipulate a man into doing something that I wanted, while making him think it was his idea all along. And I don't work like that, like if I think something or I want something, or I want to go somewhere, or I want to do something, I just say it hey, babe, I want to do this. Hey, babe, what do you think about this, honey, I think we should go do this, and I don't know how to like, manipulate, and so this idea of womanhood that I was presented with was just so strange to me. But they were presenting it as a way to be successfully submissive while also getting your own way. And it was just so weird to me. But, you know, doing it the other way, just being direct and saying, hey, this is what I want, was seen as being somehow not submissive, and you know you were being the, the nagging wife, and you know your husband would need to chastise you or whatever, the, whatever the words, the words that they use are now. So, yeah, it was very difficult for me to reconcile those things and so I started doing like it wasn't when my husband and I got married.

Speaker 1: 9:30

Like I had an idea that in my head that he and I had a very different marriage. That was like that for most people and that it was somehow not right because we viewed ourselves as partners and we worked together to do things and we were a team, we made decisions together. It wasn't. He didn't just, like you know, march into my life and be like, okay, so I'm the boss now and you know what I say goes Like he saw me as an unequal person and I had opinions and like I voiced them and he welcomed them and we had discussions and so, like that, coupled with what my understanding of what a Catholic marriage should be, was very difficult because like I almost felt that we were doing something wrong.

Speaker 1: 10:29

Like our marriage was wrong because it wasn't what I had been told we should have, because he didn't order me around and lay down the law and I didn't have to be submissive and he didn't demand sex all the time. And look, when I said no, it was no, it wasn't. Oh, you have to submit to me because I'm your husband and I said so it was just okay and moving on with my life kind of thing. She doesn't want to do it right now and so, like I, it was difficult but like the more I started to study and read and like actually go into the scriptures surrounding submission within the Bible, the more I started to understand that, like what I have been taught was not biblical at all, because what I had been taught completely isolated and like removed some of the most important parts of those verses. And it was really sad when I actually found that out because, like those verses are, I mean, I feel like they should be the found that they are the foundation of every marriage.

Speaker 1: 11:55

They should be the foundation of every marriage and but they try to make the foundation of every marriage wives, submit yourselves unto your husbands as unto the Lord. They try to make that the foundation, when in fact the entire foundation is submit yourselves one to another in the fear of God. And then, and that, that, right there, that verse, verse that's Ephesians 5, 21, that is the foundation of a Catholic and Christian marriage Submit yourselves one to another in the fear of God. And then, after that, the, you know, st Paul goes into and like, lays out and details what that means for the wife and for the husband, and like the, the detail that he goes into is actually really beautiful. So it says wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands as unto the Lord, for the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church and he is the savior of the body. Therefore, as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands and everything. So, christ, you know, he came to earth, he founded his church and the church is subject to Christ, but at the same time it is also an extension of Christ, and so he founded. It, is an expression of the faith that he gave us. So, when you know, it says that the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church. He's the savior of the body.

Speaker 1: 13:47

That, like to me, that meant and like, and I've had, like, multiple church sources confirmed this when I was reading it and like, the more I thought about it, like it started to make more sense to me. If the husband does something to harm the church, to harm the wife, he is harming himself, like the Christ would never do anything, and he does not do anything to harm the church. In fact, he, he does everything for the church. His entire existence on earth, when he became man and died, was in service to the church. He gave everything to the church and so, and that kind of leads me into the next verse where it says husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for it. And and that is that is very beautiful to me, because Christ died for the church.

Speaker 1: 14:51

And that is like to me, that is what husbands are called to do. They are called to die to themselves, die to their own desires, in service of their wife and in service of their families, and so that kind of plays into the whole mutual submission thing. Yes, wives, submit yourselves unto your husbands as unto the Lord. And then the husbands are called to sacrificially die to themselves in service of their wives. And so we are called. We are both called to this like beautiful sacrificial love and mutual sacrifice and in service to one another. And that is just so often skipped over in Christian and Catholic society and within.

Speaker 1: 15:46

You know, you go to marriage classes or whatever, and it's always, you know, submission of the wife, submission of the wife and the leadership of the husband and stuff, and they don't actually talk about how we're supposed to mutually submit to each other. We're supposed to die to ourselves in service of our spouse, and it goes both ways. You can't have like a successful Christian marriage and a successful biblical marriage if only one spouse is fulfilling the mission given to them by God. And I mean, yes, wives are called to submit to their husbands. And that kind of like leads into my next point here. So, like Christ gave husbands, he says husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for it. And so, right there, he gives husbands a mission to sacrificially die to themselves and basically lay down their lives, if necessary, in a sense, for their wives.

Speaker 1: 16:51

And in order and this is like the beautiful thing to me is like, in order for wives to successfully carry out their mission, their submission, which is, you know, the mission that they've been given underneath their husbands, they've been given a mission directly by Christ, a mission to live out directly under the husbands, which is, like you know, the submission. In order for us to live out that mission, the husband has to first fulfill his, because his it was given, he was given his mission first, and then we are given his, our mission, underneath his. And so it is almost impossible for us to to, you know, submit to our husbands as unto the Lord if he is not also doing the same. It's impossible. Like they have to. The two missions must complement each other, essentially, like they have to coexist.

Speaker 1: 17:46

And so, like I read these stories of these, these marriage counselor, christian marriage counselors, and pastors and priests and people like that, who are basically telling wives, you know, the reason why your marriage is failing is because you're not submitting enough and without ever giving any thought to maybe the husband isn't submitting enough, maybe he isn't sacrificially living his life Because their first, their first thought is the wife has to submit. And if only the wife and I've actually had people tell me this. I've I've had discussions with people and it just blows my mind that they would actually say these things out loud. But I've had people actually say that if the wife loves and respects her husband enough and submits to him enough, then everything else just falls into place Because he will be so grateful for that submission that he will do whatever it takes to make her happy. And that is the biggest load of bull I have ever heard, because I can't tell you how many marriages I've seen where the wife is bending over backwards trying to serve her husband and submit to him and he is just walking all over it. He is walking all over her desire to have a biblical marriage and, to you know, live out her submission, and it doesn't work. It doesn't work. That is not a biblical marriage. Again, she is not living out her submission because she can't, because he is not living out his mission, and so they have to both be living out their mission in order for it to be a successful marriage and for them to actually compliment each other.

Speaker 1: 19:36

The biblical, like a true biblical marriage is supposed to mirror the relationship between Christ and the church and it's the Christ and the church like it's a what's the word they use? I'm going to say goodness, the word is escaping me. But they peacefully, they help each other, they co-exist. Christ died for the church and you know the church serves Christ Like it's a mutual give and take relationship. And so you know you can't have one spouse just serving the other as like a servant or a slave, and you know the other just expecting the servitude as is his do, as is his right as king of the house, as I've actually heard, king of the household.

Speaker 1: 20:33

And so, like that idea of submission, you know, basically the only submission in the house needs to be from the wife, it really needs to go, because it is not biblical at all and in fact it's extremely damaging and harmful, especially for women, because we bear the brunt of that. And not only that, it's very it's also damaging for men because, like, it lowers well what it lowers? Our expectations. You know it lowers society's expectations of what men should be giving in a relationship but at the same time it lowers men's expectations of themselves. And so, you know, you go into a marriage, you go into a relationship having these really low expectations of yourselves, when you know the Bible and St Paul say and they know that you are capable of so much more than that, like you are capable of every bit of a servant's heart, as your wife is, and you should be giving that to her instead of expecting all of the work to come from her. And then you know having an attitude about it when you don't feel like you are getting, you know your due.

Speaker 1: 21:54

And so there's actually a couple other verses. I'm not going to really go into those too much. There's collisions, there's a couple of versions of verses in one collision. There's a couple of verses in the book of Genesis, but the biggest ones that Christians and Catholics really seem to focus on is Ephesians 5. And so that's what I really wanted to focus on and talk about today, and I actually had another completely different podcast planned for today.

Speaker 1: 22:32

But after the wedding I went to today, like in the sermon I heard the homily, I heard I was just like sitting there and I was thinking about it and I was just like, oh my gosh, I need to talk about this because it's not talked about enough. It's not talked about enough. I mean there's a couple, you know you'll hear podcasts here and there talking about it, but for the most part, I mean you've got, you know, john Piper and Joshua Harris and all these you know these big name pastors and these books out there talking about, you know, biblical submission of the woman and completely twisting and misconstruing what the Bible is trying to say, and there needs to be more people saying something. And so, yeah, I just really wanted to come on here and like talk about that, because, like those messages have been so harmful in my own life and like I was able to get out from under them, you know, pretty early on into my marriage and so like I can't even imagine what it would be like for a woman to be living in that for, you know, anywhere from 20 to 50 years. I mean I've heard of marriages that are like this, that you know, last up to 50 years, because that was what they were raised with and that was what society was like when they got married and that's what they think is right and biblical and so it needs to be talked about and people need to have a better understanding of the Bible and what biblical submission in marriage actually is.

Speaker 1: 24:14

Thank you guys very much for tuning into this episode of All Our Little Messes Today. Before I close up, I wanted to remind you guys to give me a follow on Instagram and on Facebook. I try to post little snippets. I have a couple people that I do market products for and things, so it's mainly just like Christian and Catholic content and I also talk about marriage and parenting and sometimes I will even get into like the political and things like that. So be sure to give me a follow and I will see you guys all next week. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of All Our Little Messes. Please let us know how much you enjoyed it below and add any questions you have about this episode. Also, don't forget to follow us on Patreon for amazing exclusive perks, including early access to podcast episodes and bonus episodes every month. We've also recently added a support group for all of our paid patrons. You can check us out on Facebook and Instagram for daily updates and insights that mirror podcast topics. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next week.