Dance Like Everybody’s Watching: Community, Creativity and the realities of a dance career with Paul Doyle

What does it take to build a thriving dance career against the backdrop of dwindling arts funding and disappearing courses? Paul Doyle reveals exactly that, sharing his remarkable journey from a shy schoolboy choreographing cringeworthy dance routines to becoming the driving force behind Liverpool's resurrected LEAP Dance Festival.

This conversation takes us through Paul's winding path through education—from a combined honours degree at Hope University to an MA at Liverpool Institute for Performing Arts and a challenging PGCE—all while discovering his true calling wasn't performing himself but creating opportunities for others. The pivotal moment came while working with a group of young boys that became known as "CHAOS," where Paul witnessed the transformative power of performance through others' experiences rather than his own.

Paul speaks candidly about the hustle required to make a living in dance—juggling teaching positions, community classes, and festival production simultaneously—and the inevitable burnout that follows. Yet his unwavering belief in dance's importance shines through most powerfully when he states: "We make the world more bearable for people." This ethos has fueled his determination to revive LEAP Dance Festival despite minimal funding, creating a celebration that spans from professional international artists to community participants.

For anyone considering a creative path, Paul offers hard-earned wisdom about resilience, authenticity, and vision. "Be true to who you are," he advises, pushing back against the pressure to assimilate into what you think an arts professional should be. His story demonstrates that success comes not from chasing trends but from steadfastly pursuing your unique vision, even when that means starting small and growing organically.

Whether you're a dance enthusiast, a creative professional, or simply curious about how passion projects come to life, this episode offers a rare glimpse into the realities of building something meaningful in the arts. Experience Paul's journey and perhaps find inspiration for your own creative endeavors—and if you're near Liverpool between April 26th and May 9th, don't miss the chance to witness LEAP Dance Festival for yourself!

Chapters

• 0:00 Meeting Paul Doyle: Dance Champion
• 3:50 Early Life and Educational Journey
• 8:15 From Teaching to Community Dance
• 16:25 Building CHAOS and Finding Purpose
• 22:35 The Birth of LEAP Dance Festival
• 31:20 Resilience in the Creative Industries
• 37:45 Self-Care and Career Challenges
• 43:50 Cultural Confessions and Liverpool's Future

Transcript

David: 0:02

Welcome to this new episode of Before the Applause with me, your host, David Watson. In this episode, I talk to Paul Doyle, a Liverpool-based dance practitioner, community engagement producer, lecturer and director. He's an all-round dance enthusiast and champion who's built an outstanding career wearing many hats and spinning many plates, but with a finely tuned and laser-like focus on creating opportunities for others as they explore their life's calling in the creative industries. We also discussed the importance of resilience in the creative industry, staying true to one's vision, and Paul opens up about the need for more committed self-care amidst the hustle and bustle of navigating his career and pursuing his passion and the thing that brings him fulfillment and joy, which is dance. Grab a cup of something nice and join us as we discover more.

Paul: 0:49

Before the applause paul doyle, welcome to the show oh, thanks, thanks for having me, dave, thanks for having me on a pleasure, a pleasure, um.

David: 0:58

Thanks so much for putting me in um. I know you're really busy at the moment, uh, planning and putting together the wonderful Leap Dance Festival which is in Liverpool. You feeling all good?

Paul: 1:11

Oh well, I think we're as ready as we're ever going to be. It's just over three weeks away now. Yeah, it's been a bit of a rollercoaster, this one, not so much the festival itself but lots of the personal stuff happening for me and the other directors around the perimeter of it all. So it's happening, which is great. It feels a little bit like you know when, when bands talk about the second album. Yeah, it does feel a little bit like that this time and we've been really limited in funds and largely that is down to me. After last year I took a long gap probably too much of a gap out. We were just exhausted, we were burnt out and it's had its toll on this year's festival. So we learn, we learn and we move forward.

David: 1:59

We do, but it's a lot of work. People don't realise how much work it is and you're always hustling and I know it will be amazing, even if you don't feel like it's the one, but it will be great. I've seen the programme and we'll get into a bit more about the festival later. But well done, it's going to be great. I can't wait, thank you. So let's get into it, and I wanted to start by taking you back to a very young Paul. What was a little Paul like growing up?

Paul: 2:30

Little Paul, a very shy, very shy young boy who loved performing, loved acting, wanted to be an actor. As an adult, I think I always just knew I didn't want to be sitting behind an office desk inputting data or something. I've always had a creative outlet, so it was very much into drama. I knew I loved dance. I went to an all boys school so there wasn't really an outlet for that, but I knew I loved dancing and with the school plays I'd always like choreograph a little. Oh God, I'd cringe if I watched them back now.

David: 3:07

Thank God we didn't have social media when we were doing this.

Paul: 3:08

I feel really bad for these kids I know, could you imagine you wouldn't show your face in public if anyone saw it?

David: 3:16

I think there's um.

Paul: 3:17

I think somewhere there's a dusty vhs of us probably and then, um, as I grew up, when I went to sixth form college, I started dancing formally then and and it was an a-level course just the weighting of the practical and the academic side of it was just wasn't suitable for me.

Paul: 3:37

So I dropped that and to pursue acting and drama and theater studies. And when it comes to auditioning for drama schools, it just didn't happen that year and at the time it was like the end of the world, oh no, and I just didn't see taking a gap year or coming back to that being something that I could do at that time, which now when I look back, I just think, god, how different life could have been had you just spent 12 months doing something else. So I moved to Hope University here in Liverpool and did a combined honours drama and theatre studies with dance course and that was the beginnings of everything there, because over the course of that three years I knew I didn't want to pursue drama and theatre studies any further and dance was where I wanted to spend the rest of the rest of my life.

David: 4:29

And how was um hope uni life?

Paul: 4:31

it was great.

Paul: 4:32

You know, um, we was limited in terms of, like, the hours that we spent on the course, with it being combined on us, um, and I always, I always felt because I would engage with stuff outside.

Paul: 4:44

So at the time there was hope, there was john moore's liberal st run a dance course, and I always felt because I was engaged with stuff outside. So at the time there was Hope, there was John Moore, there was Lipper also running a dance course, and I always felt like we were kind of like the bottom of the food chain of the other students in the city because we weren't getting enough dance, we weren't getting the standard of what we were getting was really good, because we just didn't have enough time in the studio. But I think that gave me a little bit of hunger and drive to like push myself to be as good as the other students that I was going to open classes with and yeah, so it was good and in terms of what we got from it, like we made so many important contacts through that course, like people that I've gone on to like classes, my peers now, who I work alongside, or they gave me my first jobs professionally as well. So I can't, I can't diss. It was a really valuable experience at the time.

David: 5:27

So and I think, um, something you just said is really important for anyone listening thinking about pursuing a career in whatever genre art form, is that? Really look at what the courses are offering because, for example, if you want to be a performer or a choreographer, you need the studio time, um, so it's really important, you know, like paul mentioned is to to look into it and figure out what you're going to get from it and it don't be. You know, I remember going to northern and I reckon I could be wrong maybe like 10 students in the first year dropped out because it didn't offer them what they wanted more, I would say, probably more vocational teaching and actually going to Northern, which is a conservatoire, is all about being a performer or choreographer so.

David: 6:14

I think it's a really good thing you mentioned there people that want to pursue maybe a more performance or a choreographic area is really think about the course, ask the questions and if it doesn't feel right you can transfer yeah, you can easily, and especially now, like the cost of a course.

Paul: 6:30

Now, when we went I was so fortunate I was the year before top of fees were introduced, so, and knowing you're dead darling excuse me.

David: 6:40

Excuse me, I got a full scholarship so um, so am I right? You went from Hope and then you went to Lipper yeah.

Paul: 6:50

So I, as soon as I'd finished my undergraduate, I went and studied an MA at Lipper in dance theatre practice and the funny part of that about like the peers, like my teachers, becoming my peers.

Paul: 7:00

So in my final year at Hope we had some of the lip dance department come over and work with us on projects and then when I went to study my MA they were my classmates on that course. So I'd gone from this student-teacher relationship to being alongside each other and which was great, and then we all were in each other's projects and things as a part of that. So it was a great learning experience in in that way. It was a part-time course and it just seemed to go on and on and on. So it was like two and a half years and we would go in one weekend a month and we would do all of like that academic the lectures and things alongside the other ma courses. So there was an acting one, an education one, and we all had the same central spine and then from that we'd go into our seminars and our own practice and things. So it was great because we were also working with the actors and and educators in within that context as well.

David: 7:50

So it was a good course and for anyone that doesn't know, it's liverpool institute for performing arts which is pretty iconic um, and it's a really special school stroke college, university, it's all of it together, and the reason why it's quite special is because it's in Liverpool. It produces some amazing actors, dancers, singers, choreographers, directors, theatre design, stage management. It's pretty extraordinary and it really does sit up there with all the other vocational schools. What do you think makes it special, paul?

Paul: 8:25

Well, I also work at Lippa, so I have to you know, I've got to come in with that hat on. I do think it is that uniqueness of what it is. It's not just the drama school, it's not just the dance school. It has all of these young creatives working together, collaborating to make amazing things happen. Yeah, it's celebrating 30 years as well next year, so it's a test of time and it's in a real moment of change as well, because it's moved from one CEO to the next. So there's lots, lots happening, lots of development. It's growing. I work on the acting course, I teach movement for actors and from September we're offering five BA acting courses, all specializing in different things. So, in a time when the arts is struggling and there are other courses closing down nationwide, like Lipper's, thriving and the quality of student that comes out of those.

David: 9:18

You know if anyone that does see anything in Liverpool a Lipper is always involved, always they're willing to be involved. And the quality of performers their technique is insane oh yeah.

Paul: 9:29

Yeah, we have some fantastic performers and you know they also. They get involved in stuff outside of the institution as well and like they support um, they support community groups and like activism and you know, they're really um, they are special, they are special students. They're really um, they are special, they are special students.

David: 9:46

They're really keen, they're really driven and many of them, I'm assuming, will be in leap um, well, not so many this time around.

Paul: 9:54

We've had to really focus on what the program is this year with limited funds. So the the, the cic, that that'll be roaring chaos on cic, and we were set up to make sure that there's opportunities for young people, for communities and for professional dancers. So with limited funds, we really had to go. What is this? What is it that we can offer year on year that reaches our core aims? So it's really focused. This year we've got two youth dance platforms, we've got loads of opportunities for community and, where we can, we've rammed as many professional artists into this with a really like the budget's insanely tiny, like no one would do what we're doing and we're going to come on to uh, what tips and tricks you have.

David: 10:37

People um, if I'm right, did you also do a pgce?

Paul: 10:42

I did. Yeah, I did a PGCE. What was that like? That was hard, that was really difficult, and I always say to PGCE students this is the hardest year of your life because you are navigating an academic qualification on the job, training and the vocational skills that you've got to audit as well. It's super hard. At that time that day as well, I was completing my MA and the PGCE alongside each other, so I was doing five days on the pgc and that one weekend a month on the ma and in the end I was like I just never want to do an academic paper ever again. Just leave me be no. So it was really difficult, but really rewarding as well. Like it, it is intense. The pgc, yeah and I.

David: 11:24

I know you for a while now and it's not unusual for you to be doing 3 000 things at once, so it makes sense. Might not be like good for the mind and the soul, but it's normal for you and then I was.

Paul: 11:35

After that. I was a secondary school teacher for about five, six years maybe, before I just had enough in the end and I was very conscious of the fact that, being a male dance teacher like the jobs were often going to be in get in girl schools, or you know. I was fortunate to work in a mixed school and but lots of the jobs that were available were always maternity cover posting. In the end I just thought, no, I can't do this. No more being reliant on hopefully someone will get pregnant and I'll get a few months work out of it.

Paul: 12:02

I was fortunate that the department I worked in I had two colleagues who were both passing the ball backwards and forwards over who was pregnant, so I was there for a substantial amount of time with them just on this role and having babies. But yeah, in the end I just thought, no, I've got to move on now it's time and so that was probably your first professional job. Yeah yeah, in the sector. Yeah, I suppose yeah.

David: 12:27

And I'm assuming, like most of us, you did hustling, did you work in restaurants and bars and all that crazy stuff.

Paul: 12:33

Oh yeah, before that, like through university. But I was very fortunate Once I left university. A friend of mine is a drama teacher, so I'd gone. So this is probably where everything started. A friend of mine was a drama teacher in an all boys school here in liverpool and I went to work as a classroom assistant and there was this I was doing my ma and I was working with the lads because there was a group of lads that wanted to dance but there was no like support there for them and so I got them involved.

Paul: 12:58

Now my company's called chaos, and it stems from this group of boys. We called them chaos. That was their like street crew name, but it was because the energy in the room. So you know, you had that mix of the arty linda, you could say this about any art organization. You had the neurodivergent kids, you had the kids that were just unruly and didn't want to be in class for anyone else, and then we had the gay kids as well, and that was just this mix and that energy in the studio. It was chaotic and it was like getting cats into a bag or something half the time. So that's where the name came from.

Paul: 13:32

And then I always like tried to. I always tried to make sense of it and be like, oh, is it a nanogram? Because the school's Cardinal Heenan and I was like, oh, so the ch could be Cardinal Heenan. I always used to like in my head say, oh, cardinal heenan, actions over songs because they were dancing.

Paul: 13:45

Thank god I'm telling it now, but thank god I never told anyone that moment. But that's where it came from and I had the lads involved in one of my ma projects and it was the first time I'd well, it wasn't. It was the first time I'd had a group that went out and performed and they were only really young. They were like year seven, year eight, so they were what, 11, 12 maybe? And the minute they stepped onto stage my heart just went. Something happened and I thought, oh, I don't get that before, I don't get that when I'm performing, or so I knew there was something there and then I just spent 10 years going down the rabbit hole of education and working with young people, and so it stems from that particular moment.

David: 14:30

Which is pretty special, and the reason why just going back to asking you about all the jobs that you had and you just described what you've done in terms of work is, and I think again, for those that are listening that want or have this idea of what they want to do, those that are listening that want or have this idea of what they want to do.

David: 14:48

It's really frustrating because you, you basically want to step out and start doing all this stuff. That's just the lane that you want to be in. The reality is is that actually you have to build around, that you do have to hustle, um, and you learn actually a lot of skills from working in restaurants and customers and being a teacher um, is there any? What did you learn in that period before you started like narrowing down your lane?

Paul: 15:10

um, oh dave, such a long time ago. So, like I, you know, I worked in retail for a long time, I worked in bars. Um, yeah, I should say like just how to work with the general public and just I think I've always been I and still I would say I am very um in introverted, and I know you might not think that from like, but I've had to learn how to be extroverted, put on the performance and and that's come a lot through working with groups and standing in front of them, because there's times when I go into a room and I just think, oh, I don't want to say anything, just leave me be, I don't want to give anyone my energy, but that performance comes out. So and then you just go so far down that route that it's second nature, isn't it?

David: 15:52

it's like.

Paul: 15:53

Then you turn the, you turn the character on and you're there holding court.

David: 15:57

So I've seen. I've seen you in action. You're brilliant, even if you are an introvert. I very much know you as a dance artist, a community dance practitioner, um, a teacher and a choreographer. You create amazing opportunities for other people. Um, and you've already mentioned, chaos focuses on schools and young people community. I wondered what do you get out of that focus? You know, you just described that feeling and because I just let's be really clear for those that are listening that I have no idea what we're talking about, it is one of the hardest areas to work in. This isn't about working with people that want to dance all the time. It's a whole different world and you have to have a lot of patience. I wondered, like now, you've done it for such a period of time and you're so experienced, what do you get out of it and why do you? Why do you keep going down this route? Because you already mentioned, like the funding and schools are deleting courses. What? Why is this so important to you?

Paul: 16:57

do you know what? I just think it's so ingrained in me from all of that experience that you know, when you go in and now I do a lot of stuff in primary school and when you see the look on those children's face when they're engaged and they're just loving and they're so inhibited at primary school, especially like reception class, and they just come in and the joy they get from it, it's like well, why wouldn't you want to provide that opportunity for people? And a lot of the time I do feel like mr tumble going in and working with these kids, but you know, yeah, and just so. Then it's just what happens next. What happens next and I think for a lot of the time, you know, when you're self-employed and you're hustling, you are on your own or, and me like for I was very stubborn and get frustrated with other people, especially like going through university and and collaborative work, and would just think I can just do this on my set, on my own, and I spent a long time thinking that I could. And something happened, dave, where I was like, oh, you're poor, you're old, now girl, go on. Yeah, and I was always conscious, especially as a secondary school teacher, like what happens to my students next?

Paul: 18:01

What are the opportunities for them? So when I left set, when I left the school, set like education and went to work for merseyside dance initiative, I knew from the teacher and the student's perspective what are the missing opportunities here and how can we as an organisation capitalise on that. So it was always just finding that bridge. And then we had the studio and be like so how can we earn money out of the studio when it's not term time and the artists want space and there's this potential here to do like an adult summer school, so why wouldn't we do it? So it's always been finding those, those those little moments, and I just like to provoke people and push them a little bit. You know, like if no one's doing it, okay, I'll do it.

David: 18:44

so you are a grafter. You are definitely a grafter, um, and that leads me nicely into Leap Dance Festival, so let's get into it. Yeah, it is a big thing that you are doing as part of your you know many, many, many many jobs as artist director of Leap Dance Festival.

Paul: 19:06

This one's not a job, this one is a hobby. Oh, okay, this one. This is literally what do you do in your spare time.

David: 19:14

we've won a festival, yeah, well, this this is paul saying this when you meet him in the middle of producing I'm like come on, love. Um, so, for anyone that doesn't know, it's an extraordinary extravaganza of dance in liverpool. Um, I wonder if you could talk to me just a bit about, like, why you're doing it, how it came about and what's it like trying to produce something like this leap was part of mdi's annual output.

Paul: 19:42

So merseyside dance initiative was our regional dance development organization, um, and it ran from 1993 right the way through to the COVID lockdown, so from 93 through to what was it? 2019 was the last leap. So it was an annual, sometimes biennial, celebration of dance and it would sometimes be regional, sometimes it would be national or international, and it just grew and grew and grew and there was artists coming from all over Europe. We would bring artists from America and alongside all of this professional platform and workshops with people, there'd also just be opportunities for your nan to get involved as well. So it's joyous in that like and I don't think there's very many festivals that do that whole gambit and that spectrum of things um, and then, obviously, the world shifted, didn't it, as we all know?

Paul: 20:32

and we all went through something where you know we all had alter egos and yeah, things that probably we look back on. I was at a place professionally where I was a little bit frustrated that there was just a lack of opportunity for me. I felt like I'd reached as far as I could go and and there'd been changes in the organization that I I knew that I was done and I needed to get out. So I started bringing about a youth dance festival for Merseyside and I'd put all the groundwork in. I had all these groups coming, professional artists coming to live at workshops and HE coming and running like a trade stall for the young people when they were coming, and then we went into lockdown and the festival was like four days after that, after that point, so that never happened. It was like, okay, I've got to sit on this. But I knew at that point I had everything to do, what I needed to do, moving forwards. And then I had a couple of like artistic moments and I'd spoke to counsellors over in Wirral and they said, well, we can't fund you as an artist, but if you set up a CIC or you've got some kind of structure of an organisation, we could fund that. So that was the second, like stepping stone to it. And then there was a law and a friend that was three directors, because to have a cic you've got to have three directors and one of the directors had said I'd said I'm going to close the company down, I'm not going to do it. And she said no, just leave it. Just leave it for now. It's costing nothing, we'll just leave it. And then the next thing I was like you know what I'm going to do. And she went put it through the company, that's how we do it. So that's what happened.

Paul: 22:13

So, because I've been at MDI and because I understood the festival and I and I've seen what has happened in that five-year gap where nothing was happening, I just thought you know what, now's the time, 2024 was a leap year and I thought let's go, let's do it. If we're going to call this festival leap and it is a leap year, now is the time to go forwards and do it. And we we'd planned a festival that was only five events, that was largely community and youth focused things that we knew. If we don't get money from anyone, we can beg, borrow and steal and we can call it a festival and and it will be fine.

Paul: 22:45

Um, and then we knocked on doors and asked for money and we just got it from people and and the one small little pocket. We got a small, tiny pocket of money from Culture Liverpool, who is Liverpool City Council for those who don't know, and they supported us at the start and we made a film with local artists. It was like a tourism film for Liverpool because it just shows it was a beautiful sunny day, it shows the city off and all these amazing locations that we've got. And I worked with an artist, tim Brunson, who's a videographer and filmmaker, and and at that point Tim was the only person who knew what the festival could look like, because he was. We'd gone and met these groups everywhere, so they only all knew their little piece of the jigsaw, but Tim could see it and at the end of the first day shooting he was like this is going to be amazing.

David: 23:33

I went, I know.

Paul: 23:33

Thanks, tim the problem that we ran a successful crowdfunder campaign and with that back in it just leveraged other funding from other people. So that was last year, um, and I think I held on. I was so. I was just in too much control of it last year. I needed to know because I'd worked there and I'd done other jobs or I'd programmed things as part of the festival, but I never had a sense of what actually goes in and I can sit here and go well, it's dead easy, but I just do this bit.

Paul: 24:05

But what actually does it take to make all of this happen? And last year I kind of held the reins of all of that. I wouldn't really relinquish it to anyone else and I brought other artists and producers in to to take care of their little part of it. And at the end of it I was like I can't do that ever again. That needs to be. I know what it is now. I know what can be delegated, I know what we can let go of. Um, yeah, that need for control. There's been a lot understanding what this thing is this year about the need for control that I need to let go of because it's just not. It doesn't help anyone, does it really so?

David: 24:41

no, and it's something that you know. You're creating an experience in a product and you want it to be the best, and especially when you're hustling whatever you're trying to hustle space, actually, there needs to be that single voice. You have a vision, so it's natural to hold on tight. The growth in you is actually understanding what to let go of. And if there's too many cooks and there's 50 directors, it would be a shit show. So that control thing is actually about vision and being a visionary and that's what you do, um, but now, now it's working.

David: 25:14

that's why you can let go yeah there are going to be people listen to this that may be thinking right, I wanted to create something. There's nothing in my area my village, town, city. I wondered what you would say in terms of, like, any tips about approaching creating something like this for themselves. What skills do you think they need to have or what they need to look out for?

Paul: 25:37

resilience. I think people are going to say now people are going to invite you to um meetings that don't bear any fruit, or apply for something and you spend time applying for things and it's not successful um, but you just have to be sure about what it is that you're doing and why you're doing it. And if you've got that, that confidence, that resilience and that passion and dedication to do it, you'll make it happen. And you know, lots of the time you have to make things happen on your own for no money, and you have to do that.

Paul: 26:09

So people see, I mean I, going back to the kids in the school, I was very lucky to have this group of boys that they could dance. They were good, but there was no one else doing what I was doing in the city at that point from an education point of view, all these lads. So once someone caught sight of what we were doing, they were invited to everything, which then then people knew who I was and it was like, oh, paul does this thing with these boys and that that wasn't because Paul was a dancer. Paul could do many things, but I was known for this thing for such a long time that in the end I had to say no, I can do other things here as well and break away from that. But it got my foot in the door with people, and people knew who we were and we were invited to perform everywhere. So I don't know if that answers your question, whether I've just fumbled, but no, absolutely.

David: 26:53

I think I think you've summarized it in terms of you absolutely need resilience. I think you do need to hustle and you just need to stick to it. Um, in the UK we have a bit of a weird culture where people can have a dream and a vision and people are just like, yeah, across the pond if you've got an idea, they like champion you to the hill. So it is actually just sticking to that vision. This god I'm. I do so many mad things where everybody's like, oh god, david's off on one again. But the reality is you just gotta go if you can't ooze the energy and give it, even when you know. I've been with Paul in different meetings and you people are like giving it wish washy, not really committed, but when you leave, you still got to be as excited and passionate about it.

David: 27:45

Right, that's what you've got to be, Otherwise you start questioning yourself, and then that's when you go oh my God, I'm not actually happy. What am I doing? This?

Paul: 27:58

for. So I think your resilience point is the right thing and just go for it. And I also think there's a thing of like don't chase, don't chase other people's. Like, don't, don't follow what the competition is doing. If you've got an idea, if no one else is doing what you're doing, do it. You're, you're the change and and don't be affected by it. When other people start to creep into what it is that you're doing, because they're going to yeah, oh yeah, that thing, oh yeah, we weren't doing that. That's going to happen. So you need to stand. People might be more successful doing it than you are, but understand that, like you may have been that that change that happens where you know that's happened a lot, that happens all the time.

David: 28:31

Like yeah, and, and I think it's steve jobs. I think his quote is uh, like the best art is stolen or borrowed. Yeah, that's you know, and what we all do. It's about evolution and you know, ideally it's about collaborating and creating a bigger ecology. But just go for it. I'm going to ask you a question and I know you're going to be like, oh, I can't pick, so program coming to heart, is there anything which you're really excited about, and I know that's a difficult question yeah, well, yeah, I it's hard to say because I'm in it now well, I'm excited that it's happening again, all of it, and I think each event that we've got really stands out from from one another.

Paul: 29:17

So I'm really excited for our opening event Cabaret like it's just fun, like fun burlesque jazz, a little bit of circus going on, nice social for me. Like sometimes when people go, oh Dan, see, I don't really get it like what's there not to get? Come on, babe, it's just people moving the bodies in space and we can have all these amazing, wonderful styles. And I understand where they're coming from theatrical contemporary dance. They may not understand or it might seem a little bit too highbrow for them or whatever. And that's what we've tried to do in the festival is find that balance of access points for everyone, and so we've got like so yeah, the jazz and the burlesque and the cabaret.

Paul: 29:55

On the opening night we've got an evening of like digital works within contemporary dance and live projection and mapping and live soundscapes. We've got a work of an evening of new work with liverpool based artists who are working their african diaspora. So there's three new works being created for that. We've got Dancing in the Streets, which is professional performances taking place across Liverpool City Centre. I think, to be honest, that's probably what I'm looking forward to the most. It's brilliant because you have so much feedback from the audience right there in the heart of the city, and last year we were blessed because the sun was shining all day and it was just a gorgeous event just and it's going to be sunny again this year it is.

David: 30:37

We're going to put it out there, manifest it yeah, always, always.

Paul: 30:40

Whenever we do these things, people always say this like the venues or the parks that you work on, what happens if it rains? It's not going to it never does just keep going.

David: 30:50

We just yeah, the show's gotta go on, right umbrella, she can dance a bit of there's a word for that yeah, um, do you ever stop and have a little think about what you've achieved today with your career and with leap? And you know, and I also know that you perform in hasaswara as it's vocal, which it is sickening. You've done an extraordinary thing and you are still contributing to the ecology, even against dance courses being cut. Funding's not here. You're exhausted. You're constantly hustling. Do you ever take a moment to be like shit? It's pretty extraordinary.

Paul: 31:27

Yeah, well, yeah, yes. So after the last festival, like I said, I was burnt out on it. I couldn't even I couldn't bring myself to look at any of the documentation that we'd had. I'm not interested. And then there was this whole moment when I looked back through it and I was like, oh my God, this is, this, isn't seeing it fresh from like what the audience experienced, because obviously I knew everything that was going on behind the scenes and and like money, troubles and like arguments with artists and venues and you know all those squabbles that you have along the way.

Paul: 32:01

And then I saw it and thought, yeah, this is insane. This, this, what we've done here, is special. And then this year in our program we had like a couple of spare pages and, and you know, like booklets have to come in a set amount of pages. So when I, when I thought about it and I thought back to where it began it's 18 years since I worked in that school and with those lads and we were like, oh wow, 18 years of of this journey has took us from this small group of eight lads that performed locally to this huge festival and it is just accumulating that. That one little degree of the next thing, all the way until you see this, this staggering journey that you've been on, to running a festival it's amazing.

David: 32:44

It is amazing and I think again for people listening, that I want to be in this sector, whether it's dance in particular. It is up and down, it is always up and down, and that is part of just the DNA of the creative industries on a whole. What would you say, paul? People thinking about dance not being part of the creative industry because, like I said, there's lots of headlines, there's no funding, courses are gone. It's all a bit weird. Why should people still pursue the creative industries?

Paul: 33:18

for me. Like you know, I am in working class in a city Liverpool, gay boy like. So for me it was always. It was always what I wanted to do. There was no one that was ever going to stop me from doing that, and teachers had said oh no, we think you should come do more. I don't want to. Why are you telling me what I should do with the rest of my life? So you know, I think there's a stubbornness there with me as well, we're all like that.

Paul: 33:42

I'll be like, oh, excuse me, watch, watch what I'm going to do. Yeah, I think people want to be in the creative industries for different reasons, don't they? I think lots of people want to make change and they want to make their neighborhoods and the world around them better places, and I think that, ultimately, that is what we do. We make the world more bearable for people, and in its most simplest form, that's it, isn't it? What would life be without the creative industries? And even down to graphic design, imagine walking around the supermarket and everything's just in a white package like yeah how boring so it's.

Paul: 34:15

We bring color, we make the world a better place to live in. And you know, yeah, maybe, maybe you're not going on the holidays to do by this year, but you're going to find out that you're going to have a wonderful, colorful life anyway. So you know, you live within your means and if you, if you're accepting that you're going to work in the arts, then you're going to have to live within your means, aren't you so?

David: 34:33

yeah, absolutely, absolutely, and I like that description. It brings color and um, it brings a happiness which is hard to describe once you're in, even though there's lots of frustration. But it is an extraordinary industry. Yeah, thinking about liverpool dance ecosystem and what's going on, I just wondered what your aspirations are for the future of dance for liverpool in the next couple of years I well, I think, um, you know, liverpool gets a lot of stick and it is kind of inward looking at times.

Paul: 35:07

I think that's been a problem in the past as well and, like last year, we were very introspective with the festival.

Paul: 35:13

We wanted to celebrate all the artists that were here, and then this year we'd hoped to open up um, but unfortunately, like finances and everything else, that's that's not being fully realized, and I think what we've got to do is we've got to start, like, celebrating the work that is here. Like, as you've said, liipper is a training ground for artists of the future and they do get involved, but to some degree, it's happening more than it ever did, and I think we can look at what's happening at that level and how can we take these young artists that are here, that want to live here, that want to create work here, and how can we just branch them out of this region to connect across to perform elsewhere, because it is a small city, um, and opportunities aren't here all the time. So we do need to start looking further afield. So that that was what I'd hoped to do this year, um, but you know, there's always next year there and there's lots of people in the city wanting growth and change, and I'm one of those people.

David: 36:14

I'm trying to work behind the scenes to help because Liverpool deserves it. It's got the talent and the city might be a small city, but it's an extraordinary creative canvas. You know I think like the one thing for Leap that struck me when I came to see it was the outdoor performance and the sun was shining and people were stopping. People are totally engaged, but equally the amazing talent here and the city deserves it.

Paul: 36:40

Well, I think we take the city for granted as well. You see it when you see it on TV, or maybe not so much in a drama, because they always depict one way of life in Liverpool, but if you think back to Eurovision, when those concerts were on TV and you could see Lime Street and it looked so beautiful in the sunshine, or, you know, you might see in film, and Marvel are using it as the backdrop, or DC. We are blessed with a city here and most cities in the United States like Manchester or Leeds. They're beautiful and because we live here and because we see them every day, we don't actually think about the backdrop of the city as being the stage. And you know, especially here we've got an iconic city that you could turn any corner and you could go wow.

David: 37:27

Absolutely I agree. Looking back absolutely I agree um looking back. Is there anything in your kind of career you wish you knew earlier?

Paul: 37:40

yeah, and it's not even about knowing well it is. It's about knowing myself and knowing that I'm, that I was ready to do what I'm doing, because I could have done this 10 years ago, you know, maybe not as successfully, but I could have if I'd pushed myself to do it. But I do. I have always been a believer in like what's meant to be will be and what will come to you at the right time. I think, like COVID gave us all the lockdown, gave us that distance, that sometimes, when you are grafting, when you've got to go to work, to pay the bills, to do that, there is no space and there's no time to stop and take stock of where you are and what you want to do. And and I just wish I'd have known earlier or pushed myself earlier, because who knows where I would have been now at this point, maybe burnt out a lot earlier. But you know, yeah, the burnout can get real.

David: 38:31

And that's another tip make sure you take time for yourself. Book a holiday.

David: 38:35

Book a holiday, go to the gym, go for a swim because especially dance, I think because our bodies are used to it. You know we just keep pushing and pushing. But actually it's the combination of the mental bit and the physical bit together. It it's just exhausting, especially, I think, when you're doing what you're doing multiple things, you're then hustling, basically it's quite exhausting, like you're splitting your brain, aren't you into the left and right? It's quite, it's quite a tough thing. How do you make yourself feel better? How do you give yourself a break?

Paul: 39:12

well, you know, I've really struggled with this this year after the back of the last festival and it's made me reconsider everything that I'm doing, like professionally and work-wise. And you know, bills need to be paid. So you've got to, you know, and at the minute I'm teaching at Lipper on the HE program and I'm also going into primary schools and I also run classes in the community which, if money was amazing, I could, I could offload that work to someone and be like, yeah, okay, the company does that, but at this moment in time I have to do that as well as producing a festival and sort on our pr and you know, all of those other. So I'm, yeah, probably doing six or seven people's jobs in one and I've really struggled with that. I've been thinking about how do I, how do I create space for myself over the next year and how do I make that money to support myself and and, as well, in order for the festival to grow.

Paul: 40:03

I know that I have to do that. I know I have to be in the room with the other, the other, you know heads of art orgs in this city and regionally. I need to be able to sit with these people when they all meet together to make change and that just can't happen at the minute and that has been really frustrating, especially when you're exchanging emails or you're planning meetings and you know you've got to say to people well, we're volunteers here, I'm not being paid to be in this meeting, so you know it's always, I think is this a meeting or is an email?

Paul: 40:32

is it? No? Could I have just read this and you know, so I don't know. People love to have a meeting. I'm not one of those people, I just like to get things done and so and that's my no shade on anyone who loves a meeting but I'm just not. I I twitch and I get a little bit. Oh, I need to do something.

David: 40:51

So I've really struggled with that this year, and part of that is accept the help and look for it and ask for it right, and I think that's a difficult thing to do, but seek it and it is there, even if it's difficult to find, because we've still got to make a living. Ultimately, we still need to be happy and we want to pursue these passion projects which may turn into something extraordinary.

David: 41:13

but in order for them to be great, we, paul, has to feel good as well and not just be knackered all the time we are at the fun part of the conversation, so this is a moment for you to talk about any myths, misconceptions or real annoying pet peeves.

Paul: 41:38

Something you just want to get off your chest or address straight away. Pet peeves, I think. Like the meeting thing is a pet peeve of mine, Like no, no, thank you. And then also, like you know, when you meet people that you've known for a long time, are you still doing your dance? Are you still a woman? Are you still a joiner? Like, that is my bread and butter? So yes, I am. What do you want me to do? That really bugs me.

David: 42:01

Well, that's a whole other conversation, isn't it About people's perception still that you can't make a living from being in the creative industries, which is clearly bullshit make a living from being in the creative industries, which is clearly you can.

Paul: 42:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm still here, babe, still paying all my bills myself through spinning right, right we.

David: 42:19

We chose to do this hustle essentially um, I agree yes, myths, is there any myths?

Paul: 42:27

I think, like you know, people from similar backgrounds to mine and possibly yours, dave, as well, like working class, low income families, like you can, you can make a living from this and you know, I would say and I'd say this about to my students as well- is just be true to who you are Like.

Paul: 42:45

You don't need to, you don't need to assimilate into what you think people in the arts are Like, be true, be your unique self. And with my students at lipper you know they have a tendency to like, round their accents off or to lose. No, babe, that's what makes you special. That's what I'm interested in. I'm interested that you're a lad from manchester who I can relate to as being northern or you know, and, and if you are southern and you are from, like, a more affluent family, own it be you and that's.

Paul: 43:16

No one will hold that against you. Just own it and be true to who you are I agree.

David: 43:22

So the final opportunity here is I ask all my guests to make a cultural confession. So this is not about getting you in trouble, so just. But it might be a little secret, a guilty pleasure, maybe something happened and no one knows about. Like I say, it's not about getting you into trouble, but this is your opportunity, paul, to make a cultural confession. I don't know, I don't.

Paul: 43:50

Everyone says this everyone has conf to make a cultural confession. Oh, I don't know. Everyone says this.

David: 43:54

Everyone has confessions to make.

Paul: 43:57

I know, but you know what I'm like. I just speak. I just run my mouth, don't I? So there's nothing that's still hidden.

David: 44:04

That's his confession. He literally just speaks his mind all the time, which is a good thing.

Paul: 44:09

I do. Yeah, it's just an open book, isn't it um guilty pleasures and things? I don't know? Just I, you know, at the end of it all, because we've said about the graphs and everything, I just don't think you can beat trash tv oh yeah so like give me a reality tv show competition, give me rupaul, give me anything like that, bake off, throw down. I don't care, alan, what's the one with alan carley?

Paul: 44:35

oh yeah, that's great give me people being creative in a reality tv format and I will eat that up as if it's michelangelo, you know, or I. I love it and but also, like the traitors, don't even start me on that, it's my guilt. I know it is absolute trash. I know other people love my love island you know the traitors and obsessed with claudia oh love her if I know I'm presenting something.

Paul: 45:02

I am buying that outfit that I know claudia winkleman would wear. She is the style station for what you can see. I've got these um sequined flares that I was like, oh, claudia would definitely wear that with her double-breasted satin shirt. I just need the heavy fringe. But you know it's not, and I was obsessed with the American one, not for the show, the show's trash, and not for the contestants, but purely to see what Alan Cumming was going to wear each episode. Did you watch?

David: 45:33

it, I did. Alan is insane. I love the ensembles this is vote ball. This is like the next category is like highland fling or, you know, like yeah everyone thinks that those that are in r or dan we're all reading really deep books or listening to classical. No, we're watching the easiest programs to watch because we don't need our brains to overwork. So stuff like you've mentioned is just brilliant and for me as well.

Paul: 46:00

I think that we what I was saying before about the access points for dance as well. I think it's really important that people know that yeah, if you're into strictly, then great, that's still supporting dance. And if you're into Strictly, then great, that's still support and dance. And if you love the ballet, well, fantastic. But you know, it's the same thing. It's the same thing.

David: 46:17

I agree, paul. Thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate it. I know you're in the moment of madness. The festival is going to be amazing. It's at the end of April, 26th of April to the 9th of May. There you go, everyone turn up, come and have a party in Liverpool. Liverpool does it best. But thank you again, I really appreciate it and I really appreciate you sharing your career highlights with everybody. Thanks, steve, thanks for having me, thanks for listening to this episode of Before the Applause. Please do tell everyone about this podcast and stay connected with us across all the usual social media platforms by searching at Before Applause. If you've got any burning questions, want to share your own insights, want to recommend a guest or be one yourself, then we'd love to hear from you. You can direct message us on any of our social accounts or email studio at before the applause podcom. Thank you.