Choose Success - A Conversation with Chris Rich - Episode 25

Chris Rich shares her journey to find joy and rejoicing in her family by choosing her own definition of success, even when her husband and children do not participate at church.

REFERENCES
Second Arrow
"Forget Me Not" Pr. Dieter Uchtdorf
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory by Roald Dahl
3 Nephi 17:23 "Behold your little ones."
"Am I a Good Mom?" Jody Moore
Byron Katie "When we argue with reality, we lose, but only 100% of the time.”
We Can Do Hard Things with Michelle Obama "Come home. We will always like you here."

QUESTIONS
What are you giving up on?
Are you giving up on the need to control?  
What do I really want?
What is my end desire?
What does it look like to invite people to Christ from love and joy, without dragging them?
What do I really want out of this relationship?
Is this going to help me?
Is this going to build a bridge or create a wall?
Do I want to judge them or do I want to love them?
What do I need to do to get to love?
How far are you from devastation right now?
What do I do here?
How do I show up as the person right now to have them want to be here with me today?
How has your children not coming to church helped you come closer to Jesus?

You can hear more from Chris on The Mixed-faith Relationship Podcast
Her website chrisrichcoaching.com
Facebook Chris Rich Coaching
Instagram chrisrichcoaching

You found me! If what you heard on the No Empty Chairs podcast gives you hope for more help, please schedule a free Conversation with Candice. You can also visit candiceclarkcoaching.com for more information about how coaching tools can help you keep your relationship with your children and your faith. While you're there, be sure to pull up a chair and sign up with your email to be the first to know about news and events for moms whose kids don't come to church.

It's going to be okay, and even better!

Transcript

 CANDICE
Welcome to No Empty Chairs today. I am really delighted to have another parent interview for you today. I have invited my friend, Chris Rich, to be with us today. I met Chris at a life coaching conference and I just was really moved by her calm presence. She has a very loving way about her and I've had a chance to listen to her wonderful podcast, the Mixed Faith Relationship Podcast lately, and she has some great things going on over there, and so I'm just really delighted to have her be here with us today to tell us a little bit about her story in a mixed faith family.

Welcome Chris.

CHRIS RICH
Thank you. I'm so honored to be here, Candice, so thank you for having me. 

CANDICE
Oh, my pleasure. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself. Just introduce yourself to our listeners.

CHRIS RICH
Yeah. So I live in the beautiful state of Massachusetts and I, like you said, I'm a certified life coach and I'm also a mental health presenter. And I have, but my favorite job of all is being a mom to my three amazing humans. I've got a,  a son that is 14 years old. In eighth grade, a 19-year-old son who is a sophomore in college and a 21-year-old daughter who's a senior in college, and I am also married to their amazing dad. We've been married for 25 years and I'm an active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and I'm currently serving as the second counselor in the Relief Society presidency of my stake. Couple just, I'm kind of a goofball. I like to have a good time and I delight in popping bubble wrap.

That's probably one of my very, like the big bubbles, you know, the big ones.

CANDICE
you like the big ones better than the small ones. It’s a different feel.

CHRIS RICH
All, yes,  I'll take either, but I really love bubble wrap and I love to bake. I make some pretty good cinnamon rolls and I love big bear hugs and deep authentic conversations and just connecting with people.

So those are a couple of the things about me. 

CANDICE
Well, awesome. Thank you. I am really looking forward to the conversation we'll have today. Well,  don't you just kind of dive in and tell us a little bit about your story.

CHRIS RICH
absolutely. I'm gonna start back at the beginning. So my life looks really, really different than I thought it was going to, which I think a lot of people can relate with. I. So I mentioned my husband and I have been married for 25 years and we led really parallel lives growing up.

We both grew up in Salt Lake City, Utah. Our families had been in the Church for many generations and we both came from families that just went to church. And also the communities that we lived in, all of our friends and neighbors, they were at church. So, neither my husband nor myself, we never really felt like we had this big burning testimony. We just went to church because that's what was expected of us and that's what everyone around us did.  So we both did all the things. We went to, you know, through the youth programs, and we went on missions, seminary, all the things, and I served a mission in Taiwan and when I was on my mission, I felt like this shift occurred for me, where I went from feeling like I was doing the things 'cause everyone else was to,” You know what? I want to be keeping the commandments. I want to be learning about Christ because when I'm trying to be like him, I feel like I do my best.” And so I had this shift where I realized I wanted to keep the commandments 'cause I felt the safety and the peace and I realized this was something that I really wanted to do.

So, at that point I kind of went all in and my faith really became my anchor and just a huge source of joy for me. So when I came home from my mission I just assumed that everyone felt the same way about church as I did right then. And I met my husband and we started dating and because we had such similar backgrounds, you know, we were both return missionaries had grown up in the church. 

I just assumed that we were on the same page with religion.  We got married in the Salt Lake Temple and we started our eternal family.  After we got married, I could tell that he wasn't as into it as I was. I was really into it. I love all things churchy. I love teaching, I love serving, I love being ministered to and having callings and all the social things about church.

And he definitely, he wasn't as into it as I was.

CANDICE
 Do you think that was the case all along and you just started realizing it that point?

CHRIS RICH
 Yes, for him, he felt like he never really believed any of it.  He felt like it was what everyone else was doing and what was expected of him, socially and from his family. Yeah, I don't think he ever really felt like I did about it. He got to the point where he realized that this wasn't really what he wanted to do.

So after we had been married for about eight years and we had two kids he told me he was done with church.  For him, it wasn't really like he had a faith transition or that anything big really happened. He just got to that point where he felt like he wasn't in integrity with himself. That was a big thing for him, to be able to say,  this isn't what I am interested in doing.

CANDICE
I just wanna pause there for a minute because I think sometime we're dismissive about people who are having that kind of an experience. my observation from what I know about it, is that people are very sincere in wanting to act with integrity and, line up their life with their beliefs. So, I just think we need to have a little more respect for that.

CHRIS RICH
Agreed, a hundred percent.

CANDICe
 I also think that we can have a little more compassion for how hard it can be in the context of growing up in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to choose to do something different. That it takes some courage and it's not an easy thing to do, so I don't think we need to assume someone's taking it lightly.

CHRIS RICH
Yes, agreed. 110%. I know that now in hindsight, but at the time. It did not go well. I was devastated. I had been through, up to this point in my life, I had been through some pretty significant things. My mom had a lot of health problems. She had cancer. She died when I was 25.

I had a brother that died by suicide. I had some pretty significant things that I'd gone through and.  This felt huge.  It was just totally different.  I just kept having this thought over and over again. “This is not what I signed up for.” I felt like I was trapped in this nightmare, and I totally felt like a victim that everything was happening to me and that I had no say. I didn't choose for this to happen. I felt like a huge victim.

CANDICE
I bet that those feelings resonate with a lot of my listeners, and I remember moments feeling that way myself in my own life, where just like this sense that this should not be happening

CHRIS RICH
Totally.

CANDICE
you're out of control and it feels terrible. 

CHRIS RICH
 Yes. So many different emotions came up for me. I felt devastated. I was bitter. I was so worried about the future and eternity. I was scared. I was angry. I had a lot of disappointment, resentment, judgment. Oh, lots of judgment and grief.  So often we think of grief as an emotion that we experience with death, but I've really learned with this that we can experience grief anytime we have the loss of an expected outcome. 

So I was experiencing all of those emotions and no one ever teaches us what to do with our emotions. And so many of these just felt terrible. So we all have ways to make 'em go away.  I really tried to avoid all these emotions. I was so busy. I was busy with my little kids. I was busy with my friends. And the Church is a really great place to be busy with callings and serving and all the different things.

So I got really busy and I would just try to stay ahead of my emotions. I was running from them 'cause I didn't wanna feel them. A lot of time, I really resisted those emotions. I would fake it, kind of like, “oh, I'm fine, everything's good.” But inside, I wasn't fine. I wasn't. I was just pretending that everything was okay and I reacted to these emotions in a lot of different ways.

Lots of crying, lots and lots of crying or, really passive aggressive comments to my husband. I would blame him. I was always jumping to conclusions, the worst-case scenario. It was gonna be my husband and my kids and all the possible things that could go wrong. Then other times I just would shut down or I would just kind of isolate myself.

And through all this, I definitely was not showing up as my best self. I really, really thought that the only way that I could ever be happy again was if my husband came back to church. So with that, I tried to “fix” him and I'm gonna put “fix” in air quotes. I tried to control him and I would just beg in prayer for Heavenly Father to fix everything. I would play General Conference and I would turn it up really loud so he would have to hear it  when he had no interest or sharing , this was a really good talk. You should listen to this talk.  Just trying to change him and trying to “fix” him.

And it was.  It so painful. I did this for years where it was just trying to change him. And I was so worried about what was gonna happen with my kids because I had three little kids and I raised them in the Church, too. And I was really worried, “am I gonna be sitting here by myself at some point?” or, “what's this gonna look like?” 

 I  spent so much time in what I now call dirty pain. I think of dirty pain as kind of like a hamster wheel where you are just constantly blaming and feeling resentment and bitterness and feeling entitled. I kept thinking, “I am doing everything I'm supposed to be doing. I'm doing all the things on the checklist.” I was doing a lot of blaming and arguing with reality

CANDICE
Yeah.  I have done all of these things, Chris. When I think about dirty pain, I sometimes think about it as this extra layer of suffering, right? There's the real pain and grief that's genuine.  Part of life is grieving the things that we thought were gonna be one way that aren't that way,  that's real and legitimate. Nothing wrong with that, but we add so much to our suffering when we are arguing with the fact that it is indeed this way.

Yes. Yeah.  I was in that extra layer of yuck for years. I love the concept of the second arrow.  I think it's actually a Buddhist principle, I think. The first arrow comes from that initial pain that clean pain of “this is not what I expected. This isn't the plan. This looks different than I thought it would.”  And that second arrow is this dirty pain that comes from the story that we tell about our situations. And I was stuck for over a decade  feeling like, I gotta “fix” him. I've gotta change everything. I was so laser-focused on, “you know what? I am gonna make sure that my kids know all their articles of faith that I'm gonna do family home evening, I'm gonna make sure.” So I really doubled down on trying to teach them the gospel and I was, so, attached to this idea of how it should look that with my husband, I was in love with the person that I wanted him to be and I kept this version that I thought that he was, and it just wasn't serving me.  I realized that as I did that, wanting him to be different and to change, once again, so I could be happy, I thought that was the only way I could be happy. 

I was really missing out on the person that was in front of me, the amazing, wonderful man  that I had married, that wasn't interested in church,  but he had so many great things going for him. So as I was in love with a different version of him, I really disconnected myself from him and going back to that feeling like I was a victim, that this was all happening to me.

Anytime we feel like a victim, we have to have a villain. 

CANDICe
Yeah.

CHRIS RICH
And I turn my husband into that villain, which is so unfair 'cause he's such a great guy. He's wonderful. And when you are in a relationship with a villain, it's like “I'm the good guy, he's the bad guy.” I just focused on all the good things that I was doing and really I stopped seeing the good in him.  Looking back now it hurts my heart. I did the best I could back then, but now I look back and as you pointed out earlier, that most people when they go through something like this, they're doing it out of integrity and out of sincerity.

And I was so focused on my pain, it didn't even occur to me for years that it could have been hard on him as well. Looking back, seeing that dynamic it's not rocket science. It's really hard to connect with a villain. And when I was viewing him that way, it did not work so well.

CANDICE
 So what shifted for you? When did you realize that this might be hard for your husband and that maybe he wasn't the villain in the story. 

CHRIS RICH
It was a series of a lot of little things. I feel like Heavenly Father really guided me through a bunch of things to help me to recognize that. It definitely took time. This was not something that like a light switch went off and everything was okay.

I think one of the big turning points for me. I was at a women's conference and Elder Uchtdorf was talking. I don't know if you remember this talk, but he I think it was called, “Forget Me Not” if I remember.

CANDICE
yeah 

CHRIS RICH
and he talked about the story of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

CANDICE
Uhhuh.

CHRIS RICH
And in this, he recaps Charlie and The Chocolate Factory. How Willy Wonka, this chocolatier had a competition and he had five golden tickets that he hid inside of candy bars and distributed them throughout the world. And the whole world went bonkers trying to find these golden tickets because they contained some amazing prize.

And so everyone was looking for these golden tickets. One girl in the story her dad bought cases and cases of candy bars, and they would just rip 'em open and forget about the chocolate and keep looking for this golden ticket. And President Uchtdorf talks about how instead of appreciating this chocolate that they had always loved, they didn't care about it, they just wanted this golden ticket.

 He talked about how sometimes we have something that is our golden ticket, a righteous desire that we really want, and sometimes we get so focused on that, that we miss out on the chocolate in our lives.  And Candice, it was seriously like my Heavenly Parents bonked me over the head in a very loving way and just said, “Chris, we get it. We hear you. We've heard, we know what you want, and you are missing out on your husband and your amazing family. You need to start paying attention to that chocolate 'cause you are literally swimming in a chocolate fountain of goodness and blessings.” 
And that was kind of a catalyst for me to just stop and recognize I had a wonderful husband, we had a home, we had healthy, beautiful kids, we had friends, we had family that loved and supported us. I think that was the big thing to get me to be like. “Okay. Stop, stop complaining about this and look for the good.” I'd say that was probably the biggest catalyst that got me changing.

There are a bunch of other little things along the way, and I'm gonna say there were so many ups and downs. There were a lot of things that I kind of figured out. I'd take one step forward and two steps back, sometimes three. And during this process, as my kids grew up, they also decided that they had no interest in religion.

 So I had three more chances to do it a little better each time.  Do I have it all figured out now? No,  but definitely, I've learned so much through watching these four people that I love, all my people, the four people that are the dearest to me, just watching what they've been through and learning from them and hopefully getting a little bit better each time. 

CANDICE
Would you be willing to share a little bit more about what it was like trying to navigate church with your kids when your husband wasn't participating? How you managed that and what it looked like when the kids each decided that it wasn't for them?

CHRIS RICH
Yeah. I would go to church by myself and I was always worried. instead of really being present and appreciating and enjoying them being there, I was always so scared of the future and what was gonna happen. All the things, my brain would go to the worst-case scenario.

CANDICE
Mm-Hmm.

CHRIS RICH
Each kid was a little bit different. I had some that would just go with me because I had asked him to. And I had others that fought me on it that really didn't wanna be there. It was hard. It was really hard.  As they started to grow up and be able to make more choices, that was something that my husband had always been very supportive of me. And it did get to the point though, where he said, “if they wanna go to church, awesome. But if they don't, please don't force 'em.” It was,

CANDICE
Was that hard for you?

CHRIS RICH
it was really hard and it kind of happened over a span of eight, 10 years. I had asked my kids, I said, I would like you to go with me until you're 18. And then once you're at that point, then you can decide how you wanna do it. And it got to the point where I think she was probably about 16 and she had told me, mom, I don't wanna go. This is really hard for me. With my husband, I had done it the way that I had with him and with my kids, I felt more responsibility and so,  In hindsight, I got more preachy I would write letters and as a parent it's hard 'cause it's like you wanna teach them and you wanna give them, you wanna share all these things that are so important to your heart.

And you also need to listen, each kid is gonna be so different. Looking back, I did not do a good job with my first because it was just like, “okay, you just need to pray harder. You need to maybe do the young women in excellence” or the, what's the program called anymore?

Set more goals. Yeah, personal progress. Just keep doing these things. I had so much fear that she was gonna leave that I was operating out of fear and it didn't go well. I just kept trying to coerce her or get her to see it my way instead of really asking, “help me understand what's going on for you.”

So it was definitely, it was messy and I look back and I think, yeah, I wouldn't have done it that way if I could have changed things now.

CANDICE
I am so glad that I'm not the only one, because I look back at things and I'm like, oh, wow. I.  I don't think about it that way anymore. I would do that differently now.

CHRIS RICH
Yeah,  and it was different with my second one and then with my third one. When he was about 12, he did not want to go and he hadn't wanted to go for a long time. That was when my husband was like, “if he doesn't wanna go, please don't make him. If he wants to go, great, but please don't make him.”

And I got to the point where it was like, “okay,  I'm gonna let this kid choose”. And it's interesting just thinking, “I'm going to let him choose.  I'm going to let him have his free agency,” which is his, and that was a really hard thing to be able to say, you know what, “I'm gonna go to church. If you guys wanna join me, I would love it and if not, I love you and I'll be back and we can hang out after.”

 I remember I was getting coached on that, and I said to my coach, I feel like I'm giving up. And she said, “what are you giving up on?”  And I thought about it for a minute and she said, “are you giving up your need to control him?”  And that just hit me like a ton of bricks.

'cause I had been.  We want so bad for our kids to follow the script that we thought that they were gonna follow. It was really hard and he hasn't, he decided that he didn't want to come back, but I could see that if I kept pushing and trying to persuade and manipulate and coerce that I wasn't gonna have a relationship with my kids. 

CANDICE
I have just been thinking about, the script worked really well for me, for the most part. Growing up, I grew up in Oregon and then I moved to Provo, Utah when I was 13 and went to high school and then went to BYU and there were lots of things about that script that were working for me

CHRIS RICH
Yeah.

CANDICE
until it didn't, and I just see in my children's lives that there are some ways that church does not work for them the way it works for me, and that's legitimate. I think I've just come to have more respect for that. 

CHRIS RICH
Definitely, I remember a moment where I think it was probably about seminary or something.  And once again, my husband was like, “if they don't wanna do it, I'm not gonna argue with them to do this.” And they made it very clear they didn't want to go to seminary. And I had the distinct prompting that “I have not asked you to drag people unto me. I have asked you to invite them to follow me.”

  And I had to realize dragging someone into Christ is like, “okay, I've gotta stop dragging.“ And ultimately thinking in the end, “what do I really want? What is my end desire?”

 And it was to connect with my kids and my husband. When I was dragging, it was not, it was tearing us apart instead of what I was hoping that it would do. I think as parents, we have this idea that we need to save our kids. We put a lot of responsibility on ourselves.

But I've learned.  Over time and doing it the wrong way, that it's not my job as a mom to save my kids.  It's the savior's job to save. And my job as a mom is to love my kids.  I love  in the temple  there's a little line that just sticks out to me every time, and we covenant to find joy and rejoicing in our posterity. 

It doesn't say if they are going to church or if they're doing this and that. It's find joy and rejoicing period. 

CANDICE
Yeah, that it's our job to do that, not theirs to do it for us.

CHRIS RICH
Yes. And I have to point out,  my kids are amazing. They have no interest in religion at all, and they're some of the most kind, helpful, good people that put so much good into the world with their talents and their uniqueness, and it is not hard to find joy in them. 

It looks different. I thought that my kids would go on missions and I thought this would happen and that would happen, and none of that is happening. When I focus on my job is to find joy in them. It makes it so much easier. I had to set that script down and to just recognize, “you know what, my job is just to love them and I can teach them and I can be an example to them and,  but my job is not to save them. It's just to love them and find joy.”

CANDICE
Thank you for that.  Would you talk a little bit more about what it looks like for you to invite them to come onto Christ without dragging them? What does it like to sit in your love for them and your joy in them and to extend that invitation? 

CHRIS RICH
I love that question. I think a lot of it is honoring their boundaries. Talking about religion and Christ is definitely not something  but when I strive to be like Christ, by loving unconditionally and trying to be authentic and learning from them and listening from them just trying to be the best version of me. Showing them what it looks like to ask for forgiveness because I'm a human. I mess up often and modeling what it looks like to be as Christlike as I can without having the conversation, “this is what Christ would do.” 'cause that puts up a wall with my people.

 Just trying to be the best version that I can of me and really getting to know them and the goodness that they have within. I think of that scripture in the Book of Mormon when Christ said, “behold your little ones.”

CANDICE
Hmm.

CHRIS RICH
My little ones aren't so little anymore. In fact, most of 'em are bigger than me. But just really looking at them and getting to know them as unique individuals and sharing.  Trying to love them exactly as they are. They know that they have a mom that loves them fiercely. And I think that's a big thing.

Sometimes my kids will tell me things that I don't wanna know about some things that are really hard, and then I think this is actually a beautiful thing that they know that they can come to me and say, “Hey, mom, this is what's going on. What is your advice?”

Even when it might be something that I don't agree with,  I'm so thankful that they know that I'm here and that I'm gonna love them no matter what and that is huge to me that they come and tell me the things that are going on for them. 

CANDICE
Yeah, that is a great honor

CHRIS RICH
Yeah.

CANDICE
To be included in their lives in that way. Definitely. You've talked about being the best version of you and I think that probably includes, for you being the best mom that you wanna be, the kind of mom that you wanna be. How have you separated out your definition of what it is to be a good mom in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from what it is your kids are doing? 

CHRIS RICH
Oh, that took some serious work and it's so important because we base our success as mothers as spouses we base our success as humans so often on the results of other people. So it's easy to think “I'm a successful mom if my kid does X, Y, and Z.”

But if they don't, then what? And I was at that point where I was like, “okay. I have to base my success as a mom off of the things that are just in my control,” and I had to redefine what success was. 'cause I had always thought it was going on missions, getting married in the temple, graduating from seminary, all those things

CANDICE
Your kids doing those things, not you doing those things for yourself.

CHRIS RICH
Yes. Thank you for clarifying. I had done those things and I thought that that was, I was a successful mom if my kids did those things, and that is what got me into coaching. I remember I was listening to a Jody Moore podcast on this topic and.

CANDICE
I love Jody Moore.

CHRIS RICH
I was devastated because I was the young woman's president when my daughter was leaving the Church and feeling like a complete failure.

And that one concept that I got to choose what success was for me and define that that was a game changer for me. That was kind of the catalyst that was like, wait a minute,  I can look at this differently. And that's when I got fascinated with coaching and realizing “you know what? I have done my very best as a mom.”

I decided to make that metric of success very different. It changed from my kids doing A, B, and C to Chris Rich loving her kids, teaching them, protecting them, always being there, trying to support them. I wanted to focus on the things that were in my control, and I learned that I could be a very successful mom and that I had done a great job. Had I screwed up plenty? Yes. 'cause I'm a human part of the time. I'm an amazing mom part of the time. I'm a hot mess. I'm a 50/50 mom. 

CANDICE
Congratulations. Welcome to Mortality Operating As Designed. 

CHRIS RICH
just like everyone else. Recognizing I did do a good job and they are making their choices, and I can still look at myself as a successful mom. I show up so much better from that spot, instead of thinking, “I'm the worst mom, I'm a failure.”

And believe me, I've been down that road and it's just not useful. It doesn't help me to show up with my kids the way I wanted to. Usually when I was feeling like a failure, I would feel shame and I would go hide with a pint of Ben and Jerry's and my phone and disconnect from my people. I wasn't even hanging out with them, just proving to myself that “yeah, I'm a failure.”  When I recognize, okay, that's not helpful. If I'm looking at myself as “I'm doing the things that are in my control to the best of my ability.” That changed everything for me, to believe in myself even when things were looking different than I thought they would.

CANDICE
 I love that. I am still learning the lesson of kindness and compassion for myself, for myself today, and for my past self. Sometimes I think, well, that woman in Relief Society, that's so embarrassing. She's saying something that I would've said 15 years ago. It's just this judgment feels terrible and it doesn't build relationships. My experience has been that when I am so hard on myself and trying to get my self-concept from what's happening with my kids. It makes things worse.

CHRIS RICH
Yeah.

CANDICE
It’s harder for me and it's harder for them. It's more unpleasant for them because they feel this pressure because I'm hanging my emotional experience on what they do and my sense of success and worthwhileness as a human being on their choices.

  That is just not fair to anyone.

CHRIS RICH
No. No, not at all. 

CANDICE
It's a lot of pressure.  That work of trying to take the accountability back with ourselves, for me, I've had a similar experience that when I do that, it feels better because I'm being honest about what I can control, I
CHRIS RICH
Yeah. 

CANDICE
Yeah. Yeah.

CHRIS RICH
And that arguing with reality, trying to like, no, it's supposed to look like this when it's not. I love the quote by Byron Katie. “When we argue with reality, we lose, but only 100% of the time.” 

CANDICE
absolutely. It's one of my favorites too. that skill of  peace with what is happening right now, that moves us toward godliness. I have this idea that Zion comes when we increase our capacity to embrace the people around us as they are. That improves our experience. It increases our capacity to love, and I think that's what we're really looking for. 

CHRIS RICH
I love that. What a great definition. That's beautiful.

CANDICE
Thank you. Chris, it's been a delight to talk to you. Did you have anything else that you wanted to share before we move toward the close here?

CHRIS RICH
One of the last things that I would say is it really has helped me and continues to help me 'cause I'm in the middle of this, is to work backwards, to ask myself, “what is my end goal? What do I really want out of this relationship with my kids and my husband?” And my biggest thing is I wanna connect with them. I want to have a good, strong relationship. So a lot of times I'm asking myself, “okay, if I say this, is that going to help me? Is that gonna build a bridge or is that gonna create a wall?” 

And there's some times where it's like.  “Yeah, this is the right thing. I feel like this is gonna help me to connect with them” and I'm so thankful for personal revelation in having that guidance. And also the times when it's like “not a good idea. This is going to put a wall and you probably don't wanna say that.”

I try to think of having my end goal and working backward from that. One of my questions that I'm often asking is, “do I want to judge them or do I want to love them?” And especially with my older kids, they're in college and I get very limited time with them.

 My daughter's actually, studying in China, so we're on FaceTime and I only have that finite time with her.  I ask myself that question a lot. “Do I wanna judge or do I wanna love?”  And I'm a human. I've got emotions that come up. I definitely feel judgment and so allowing myself to feel those emotions and focusing on love. Out of all the different emotions, love feels the best. “What do I need to do to get to love?”

 Sometimes that's processing those hard emotions so I can get to that point. 

CANDICE
 I'm curious how far you are from devastation right now. Do you feel devastation still sometimes?

CHRIS RICH
I wouldn't go with devastation. I definitely, I love that question because that was an emotion years ago where it was like, I am in the middle of it and that is not an emotion that I feel like I'm experiencing right now. How did you phrase that first question? How close I am to devastation?

CANDICE
Yeah, something like that. 

CHRIS RICH
I really love that and it feels good to be able to say I'm not that close to it right now. I just am focusing on finding joy and rejoicing in them.  With emotions too, they come and go. Will there be other times where I'm devastated. I'm guessing there will be, but right now I'm in a spot where I feel like I just love these people.

They are making some choices I don't love and I love them.

CANDICE
Well, I I love that. Thank you for sharing that. I am thinking about the concept and the name of this podcast is No Empty Chairs. We get this phrase from the idea that there are gonna be empty chairs in heaven, right?  I think it's easy for parents to feel devastated 'cause they think that's gonna happen.

 I have decided we don't actually know what's gonna happen.  There are a lot of things between here and there. We thought things were gonna go one way at some point in our life, and that's not how they went. So we could be wrong about this, too. I've noticed that when people feel overwhelmed and then adjust by shortening their lens.

CHRIS RICH
Mm-Hmm.

CANDICE
And focusing on what's here right now and what's here right now is the opportunity for you to love and connect with your kids and for me to love and connect with my kids.  That has been really helpful to me to just not sacrifice the pieces of heaven I can create right now and the moments of connection that I can find right now with them, because I'm worried about what might happen later

CHRIS RICH
 I love that, and I think my focus, instead of thinking about the empty chairs in heaven, thinking about “what do I do? How do I show up as the person right now to have them come home right now to have them wanna hang out and to fill those chairs today?”

CANDICE
Oh, you're just reminding me of Michelle Obama was on Glennon Doyle's podcast. We can do hard things.

CHRIS RICH
Hmm.

CANDICE
She talked about her mother telling her kids, “come home. We will always like you here.” When things got hard in the world, “come home. We will always like you here.” I am moved again right now thinking about the beautiful woman, Michelle Obama's mother was.

CHRIS RICH
Yes.

CANDICE
And what a gift she gave to her children to give them that reassurance and sense of safety and love to always come back to, and that's something that I want to give my children and I can see you trying to create for your family.

CHRIS RICH
I think it can be scary 'cause we don't know how things are all gonna end up. I'm sure that God has a plan and everything is gonna work out just fine. And my job is to focus, to zoom in on today. “What can I do to show more love and to connect with my kids, right here and now?”

CANDICE
Thank you. Well, this seems like a good time to ask you, how has your children not coming to church helped you come closer to Jesus?

CHRIS RICH
I love this question so much and there's a lot of different things. I feel like as I've gone through this process four times, I am a totally different person than I was when I started this journey. I'm a better listener. I am learning to love more unconditionally. I'm learning to be more vulnerable, to be more authentic, to be less judgmental, to be more accepting, to look for people that are in the margins and to love them and to pull them in and to accept them. I feel like going back to in the beginning I said I always had this thought that “this isn't what I signed up for.”  Now I kind of look at it completely differently. This has taken a lot of time to get to this point.

It didn't just happen, but now I kind of look at it. “You know what? This is probably exactly what I signed up for because all these things are helping me to become more like my Savior.” Has it been easy? No. Have there been some really hard things? Completely, but I feel like I'm closer to my Savior and I understand so much more of what He wants me to do because of this experience.

 I'm at the point now where I can say I'm thankful for this. And I love because I've been through this experience with mixed-faith marriage and with having a mixed-faith family, I get to help other people in this position now. It's a sacred, sacred spot and I'm thankful to be here and I have a beautiful, amazing family that I just adore.

CANDICE
 That's beautiful.  you so much for sharing some of your story with us today. Chris, people would like to hear more from you and learn more from you, where can they find you?

CHRIS RICH
 I've got my podcast, the Mixed Faith Relationship Podcast. You can also find me at Chris Rich Coaching and Chris with a CH. And I'm on Instagram and Facebook at Chris Rich Coaching as well.

CANDICE
Awesome. With that, I will just remind everyone,  there are no empty chairs.