Is God Disappointed in Me? A Conversation with Kurt Francom - Episode 30

Candice talks with Kurt Francom about his book Is God Disappointed in Me?: Removing Shame from a Gospel of Grace

Kurt Francom is the founder and executive director of Leading Saints and manages the day-to-day efforts of Leading Saints and is the host of the podcast. Kurt graduated from the University of Utah in 2008 with a degree in Business Marketing. He ran a web development company for 5 years before focusing on Leading Saints full-time. Kurt currently lives in American Fork, Utah with his lovely wife Alanna. They are blessed to have three children. Kurt has served as a full-time missionary (California Sacramento), as a bishop, 1st counselor in a stake presidency, and elders quorum president.

https://www.deseretbook.com/product/6070527.html

https://www.amazon.com/God-Disappointed-Me-Kurt-Francom/dp/B0CT67RS86

https://leadingsaints.org/new-to-leading-saints-start-here/

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It's going to be okay, and even better!

Transcript

 Candice:

Welcome everybody. I am really excited to bring you my guest today. His name is Kurt Francom. He is the founder and executive director of Leading Saints. He manages the day-to-day efforts of Leading Saints and is the host of the podcast. Kurt graduated from the University of Utah in 2008 with a degree in business marketing. He ran a web development company for five years before focusing on Leading Saints full-time. He currently lives in American Fork, Utah with his wife, Alana. They have three children. Kurt has served as a full-time missionary, as a bishop, first counselor in a stake presidency, and elders quorum president. I first got to know Kurt as a listener of the Leading Saints podcast and really appreciated the work that he's done there. And then I got to meet him kind of in person, I guess, virtually over remote classes when we both trained as 3 Practice referees. So I know Kurt as someone who is committed to the idea of making things better and improving relationships and making room for difference. So, I'm just really glad to have him here today to talk about his book Is God Disappointed in Me?: Removing Shame from a Gospel of Grace. And I am always eager to talk about grace. So I've been really looking forward to this conversation. Welcome, Kurt!

Kurt Francom:

Hey, thanks, Candice. I, appreciate that call back to those 3 Practices trainings that we did.  So valuable just spending time there and learning some of those principles that I still use today. So,

Candice:

Yeah, sitting with those ideas was great for me too. Thanks for being here, let's just dive right in. I really want to talk about some of the ideas from your book.  As a life coach who believes that our thoughts create our feelings, it's really clear to me that God can't experience the feeling of disappointment. That's become a really familiar idea for me, but I think it's a new idea for a lot of people. And I wonder if you would just, how would you explain this fundamental thesis of your book that God is not and cannot be disappointed in us?

Kurt Francom:

Yeah. I think it's natural for us as humans to project our own experience and feelings  on others. And that includes even the God that we worship, right. Especially in our Latter-day Saint theology where,we believe very unique doctrines of God has a body of flesh and bone, and we are his children, his offspring. And so it's natural to think, well, I'm a parent and I have offspring and I get frustrated with them. So God must get frustrated with me or they disappoint me, so God must disappoint me.  As I  in the book, you know, if I had my nine-year-old son be interviewed and describe who his earthly father is.I wouldn't want to put too much money that he would get very accurate description of who I am as, a 42 year old  male that deals with life and pressures in unique ways that my nine-year-old can even begin to comprehend. And so that dynamic happens on a much larger scale with us that sure, God wants us to know him, understand him, understand his nature, but oftentimes we project our own experience on him and assume, well, he has similar feelings to me, like being disappointed.  And that's just not generally helpful when we're trying to develop a relationship with him, that's encouraging and hopeful and full of grace. And so my hope is that not that I know what God is like, or do I know a hundred percent sure that God doesn't feel disappointment? I  guess I really don't know, but it's helpful to at least sit and think about it and really understand how we're framing God and how that's impacting how we're living our life. 

Candice:

Yeah, I guess I would say we also couldn't possibly know that he is disappointed in us, right? You can pick whichever one you want, so what's useful to you and what brings you feelings of hopefulness?  

Kurt Francom:

right. That doesn't serve me well. Right.  So I just like many emotions and thoughts we have, but that thought doesn't serve me well. Well. I'm going to maybe reframe that thought and take a different approach to life that actually serves me well. 

Candice:

yeah, I appreciate that.  One of the things you do in your book is you talk about a difference between expectation and expectancy. Would you talk a little bit about how you use those two terms to think about God and whether he's disappointed in us?

Kurt Francom:

right.  The basic premise is that Disappointment is the offspring of expectation  is something we hold right an understanding of what we have for the future and when that future doesn't match up with our understanding of what we thought it would be That's where Our mortal disappointment comes from. And so to claim that God doesn't experience disappointment is also to claim that God doesn't have any expectations. And this can be more controversial than I expected it to be. But once I unpack it, most people understand it. So I shared an example in the book where I was out of town. I'm a big college football fan. Love, BYU football. And I follow them, go to their games, those things. And so I was missing this game. And I wanted to watch the game when I got back, cause I was off the grid and didn't have any internet access. So I knew the game was over on my way home from this trip. And so I just took a peek at the score and I was excited to see that they won. BYU Cougars won in overtime. So I was excited to watch the game.  So I went home and watched the recording of this game and it was a different experience for me because I knew in the end, they would win. And so every time somebody dropped a ball or lost a yardage, it really didn't bother me. I thought, no, this is fine.  I know in the end that they win  and to see it even come down to the wire that BYU was behind with only 18 seconds to go in regulation. And I felt no sense of frustration or nervousness, anxiousness. I just knew that  they would win. And so this is maybe a microcosm of experience that God has, an all knowing God. That he knows that his plan works for us   has  a long game that he can focus on that no matter how long it takes, we will all have the chance to understand what we're accepting, what we're not accepting. And even if he isn't all knowing, some people will argue that maybe God isn't all knowing. And even, even if that is the case, he has. Full assurance that what his son, Jesus Christ did literally worked  he's not crossing his fingers and in the eternities hoping that maybe this plan he put together actually works. He knows it worked, it's done, it's over. And he has full confidence, full faith in his son, Jesus Christ. And of course we're all striving for that similar as mortals, maybe we don't have a quite that level yet.  So my contention is that God isn't looking at mortality really frustrated when we fumble the football, or when we sin, or when we turn away from him, or when we stop going to church, or when our loved ones do the same, he has full expectancy, just like we have full expectancy that the sun will rise tomorrow, nobody's really worrying about that nobody's losing sleep over that, or waking up early and counting down till sunrise, hoping that the sun peaks over the horizon, no,  It's going to happen, it's done. So I think God sees our own mortal journeys in a similar way and, with that full expectancy, knowing that his plan works for us, he's able to sit with us longer, encourage us one more day and he'll never give up on us. And that's the beauty and power of the grace that he offers. 

Candice:

Yeah. We can just choose to believe that it's going to work out in the end.  And, I have found that when I can do that, it has a powerful impact on my own behavior. And I'd be curious to know how your understanding of this principle has impacted your own parenting.

Kurt Francom:

Oh wow. Yeah. Huge. For sure. I talk at the end of the book is this concept of grace for grace. We have the grace of Jesus Christ, which  in turn is the grace of our eternal father. it's at the core of  our faith and belief.  oftentimes,  though we, on paper, we like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we believe that. It's at the core. often  we don't believe it in our hearts. And you can often see that just how you show up in life. I find when I have a hard time giving grace to others, It's often an indicator that I'm having a hard time accepting grace for myself, accepting that gift that God is always giving me. It doesn't mean I'm bad or that I'm sinning for having that thought, or there's something wrong with me. It's just an opportunity, maybe an indicator of mortality to be able to step back, reassess and think, Hmm, yeah, I am kind of getting, you know, as a father, , my kids are young, 12, 12, nine and four. And so I have those tough father days,  with these young kids, they maybe get on my nerves. They're too loud or , it's easy to get frustrated.  So when I find myself getting there, I often think, Hmm, that's interesting, maybe I'm having a tough time receiving grace for myself. In those moments of  I need to be a better father. You know,  those shame messages that often come to my mind.  I'm going to cause them future therapy or  whatever it is. I often think maybe I need to just take some time for myself,  connect with my eternal maker. And remember the grace that he's offering me. When I feel that grace,  it's so much easier for me to remove expectation from my children. Now, a lot of parents hear that and think, Whoa, wait, Kurt. Like that's my strongest tool is expectation, right? Like I've been using expectation to raise kids  and now they're teenagers or young adults. And so I really need to pour on the expectations, but expectations is fueled.  And shame is what corrodes our divine identity.  It's a very dangerous path to go down there. Now, some will say, I mean, no, we've had high expectations in my house from the time that they were born.  it was effective. It got them to church. It got many on a mission. And yeah, I won't, I'll never contend with that.  works.  But

Candice:

In the short run.

Kurt Francom:

Yeah, in the short run, just like lying works in the short run, stealing works in the short run. Just go down the list of, if we're just talking about  effective something is, yeah, expectations are really effective because they drive shame and shame is really effective.   I want to build a relationship that has much more longevity to it.  And Again, I'm the guy that wrote this book, but I still struggle with it in my life. I don't want to paint the picture that I'm an expert of this, but I'm always doing my best to set those expectations aside because I think back  a big expectation we have in our faith culture is serving a mission. Right.  And I remember that weight of that expectation as a young 18, 19 year old. And even that expectation and shame really kept me on my mission probably for the first six months because I could not face the shame of returning home. And so I would love, man, I just pray and hope that my son serves a mission someday.  However, if I develop a relationship based on this expectation, it might work.  However, it sets me up  I'm mixing shame in with the recipe, which could have a really negative long-term effect on that relationship where if he thinks our relationship is based on that expectation and for whatever reason, he does not fulfill that expectation. He thinks That that love is conditional or that he's not wanted you know, those types of things. So as a parent, this just going through this process, studying and yeah, it's helped me just constantly come back to like, okay, I, feel like expectations snuck into this relationship a little bit. I want to reassess and regroup around this concept of love and acceptance, because in that context, then my son is more likely to come to me and say, Dad, I just want to be a good person. What would you recommend if I want to be a good person in life? Probably won't be in those words, but I'd say,  if you're 18, 19, like you should go on a mission. Cause that really helped me to be a good person. Again, it's not an expectation. Now let's say he's looking for direction from me because that relationship has such a strong foundation that it's built on.

Candice:

Yeah. Yeah, that's fascinating.  I've been thinking about expectations and we do want to have rules for our kids.  We expect our two-year-old to hold our hand when we cross the street or whatever it may be. But what I see when I work with people and dealing with their emotions is that parents can get hung up when  their own emotional experience hinges on their children's behavior. Like, I need my kid to go on a mission for me to feel okay about myself as a parent. And this kind of extension where parents are defining ourselves by our children's behavior as proof of our own righteousness and our own worthiness.  What thoughts do you have for the mom who's feeling like a failure because her children have disengaged from church activity?

Kurt Francom:

Yeah. My heart just goes out to her. maybe that's my future I don't know I'd like to think that  I've dialed everything into the point that I've Cracked the code on whatever that recipe is, but it's just so heavy and my art goes out to them because I've heard these stories of empty nesters who the majority of their children may be stepped away from the gospel and they can't help but go to this place of  if we did family scripture study twice a day back then that would have done it right or if I would have tripled my temple attendance that would have done it right like all these what ifs And it must have been my fault that I did this but  this is the power of shame, which is the adversary's strongest tool. It's often like glitter. I call it shame glitter, right? You get a little bit on something and everywhere. right? And no matter how many times you vacuum, wash, like you can't seem to get rid of the glitter. Shame is the same way that not only is the shame may be impacting your loved one, your child, your adult child,  shame is creeping into your own life. Right? That's the message that the adversary wants you to believe. Cause if he can convince you that there's something wrong with you, or there's something wrong with your identity, like you're broken. Yeah, you're a child of God, but he's disappointed in you. You missed it.  And if he can get you to that point, he can take the year off with you. Cause you will continue to wallow in that shame and.  This is what leads to so much sin  is that when you wallow in  the false message of it's because of you that this happened, it's just not a plan of success in this. And even when you're feeling that, I always want to be clear.  It's not because there's something wrong with you. It's because you're human. I mean, Maybe a little bit more of this or that. But reality is, is that what happened is happening and his grace, as we learn in Romans, his grace is sufficient period. Like that's the beauty of the grace message that there's nothing more or less you could have done, right? There's so many people I think of my own family. So me and my two brothers, we were all bishops. At the same time. And those two brothers have gone on to, they're currently stake presidents right now. So many people look at the Francom family and they were like, they did it guys. They figured out the code of producing righteous bishops. And there was one young mother who, who actually approached my mother once. Like, what is it? What did you do? Right. My mom's like, I don't know. I mean, cause if you grew up in our home, yeah, there was a lot of weakness, a lot of messing up,  not doing enough, but for whatever reason, that's Where we're at and so at the same time of convincing ourselves that, oh, well, this child is on a negative path because of my shortcoming. We also can't believe this child's on a positive path because of my ability to do. And so my heart just goes out to those parents that it's  your fault. You were never meant to be everything for your children. Cause if you were everything for your children, why would they ever need to turn to God? 

Candice:

Yeah.  I think there's a lot of wisdom in what you say there and I have found in my own experience that my ability to turn grace toward myself  has a big impact on my experience of life and my willingness to understand. That this is mortality operating as designed.

Kurt Francom:

Yeah.

Candice:

 Nobody's getting it all right. And some of these things are just more visible than others.  And it's not a position of faith. This is what I think. It's not a position of faith to be so worried.

Kurt Francom:

Hmm.

Candice:

I think we can have more hope than sometimes we allow ourselves to entertain. And so I really appreciate your focus in your book about the grace that is absolutely available to us and to our children. 

Kurt Francom:

Absolutely.

Candice:

So, so important. Let me just read a little quote from the book if I may. You said  

“acceptance is important because acceptance is only the beginning of our road to a higher identity. If we don't first accept that we are weak, mortal, and inconsistent, we can never learn how to overcome those limitations. We must realize that God accepts that too. He accepts us exactly as we are. There's no disappointment in that acceptance. Once you have discovered what you currently are, He will show you your potential identity, your perfect identity. It's not our job to be driven by perfectionism. It is completely the job of Jesus to make us perfect. Leave it in His hands.”  

So talk a little bit about what comes to mind for you when you think about leaving perfection in Jesus hands.

Kurt Francom:

Yeah. This is where that reliance on Christ becomes so real, right? I don't know if I've had an to associate with many. Recovering addicts. Just through the nature of my podcast and interviewing different people, I've sort of gathered this friend  of recovering addicts and it's so fascinating to hear them articulate their faith. It's such a dependent faith. You know,  often say things like one day at a time. One hour at a time. Now the reality is, is they're no different than me, even though I don't have a stigmatized  addiction that I can point to.  We're all addicted  something in mortality, something that  rather turn towards for solutions rather than to turn to God.  And so just that dependence on God  I want that kind of faith. And in order to get there, I have to recognize and find and allow God to point out my weakness. And we learn that in Ether, right? God gives into us weakness. or in other words, He gives us mortality. It's a gift of coming into this broken world in order to discover our broken selves. Because when we're broken, that means we have something to heal. We have something to take to Jesus for that healing and I think a lot of us miss that the most when we can't articulate our brokenness Not like the addict can   and that would maybe be a good starting point  For individuals if they're sort of not sure where to to start with all that of receiving that grace is first You have to articulate how are you broken?  if we met the Savior today and he turned to us and said all right Candice I'm here  what can I heal?  And if you don't have a response to that, that's kind of a problem for me,  if we don't have anything for him to heal, why do we need a savior, why do we need a healer? so going on that journey for me has been eye-opening. Again, I'm not the type of person that has a checkered past that with all sorts of stigma of addiction or jail time or any of this, but nonetheless, I still need Jesus.  And so because when I find that brokenness, then  I can rely on his perfection to heal me and I don't have to try to do it anymore. Right. I can

Candice:

Yeah.

Kurt Francom:

Jesus. And that's so healing that when he accepts me as I'm broken, I can't help, but turn to him and follow him and do whatever he asked me to do. Cause I know and trust fully in that grace. 

Candice:

Like you, I don't have a stigmatizing addiction. We accept sugar and chocolate very well in our faith community, and so there's that. But I have some experiences that are sometimes stigmatized.  I'm a divorced person. And I have five children who don't come to church. And these are things in our community that are sometimes stigmatized. And as you were talking, I was kind of thinking about my own woundedness. And  what I've found is that those experiences have exposed my woundedness, but I have not found them to be. The source of my woundedness or the thing that is the challenge and so They have brought me to God or maybe I would say it a different way God has used these experiences for my benefit just because he has the power to consecrate Anything to my good  Not that they needed to happen, just that they did. And so now what? And now what for me is turning toward the infinite atonement of Jesus Christ and trying to receive that and let Him heal me and expand my capacity to love.

Kurt Francom:

yeah.  And just thinking in the context of maybe those that are listening that have,  children or loved ones who've stepped away from the gospel, maybe you were holding everything together for several decades even of we go to church, we're doing the mission thing in our family, people are getting married in the temple, we're doing it, right? And of course, these are all beautiful things and should we strive for, For sure. But then there's sort of this disruption  that suddenly, you can't hold the house of cards together anymore.  And it sort of crumbles and it can be a very frustrating experience thinking, Oh, now God's disappointed me. When in reality, God wants that disruption because it's through these disruptions that we turn to him. At least  I hope we do. And maybe many people don't, some people will get to a place where they reject him because they think, you told me to do this equation and I did it and now it didn't work in the end. So I just rejected all including God.  When in reality, he's inviting us to turn to him and surrender everything. All the facades, all the, the perceptions, all the opinions about you, give it to God and start over. 

Candice:

And I think it's this false idea that I was ever holding it all together to begin with, right? That was never my job.

Kurt Francom:

Yes.  Yeah, I still fall into that where I'm thinking, man, this week's gone pretty well, and that's because, I'm doing my routines, I'm doing this and that, and of course, that striving's great, and there's a sanctifying process there, but anytime we get the idea that,  Somebody else is hurting more than us, or life is more chaotic for others, because we've sort of dialed in better. That's a false notion that God will disrupt at some point, because He is the reason why things work. He is the reason why people follow Him and, and feel of His love.

Candice:

Yeah.  This topic came up in Sunday School recently, and there were just a lot of comments tending toward the idea that , God comforts the afflicted and afflicts the comfortable and I just find myself not believing that that is what God does.

Kurt Francom:

These are fun things that we cross stitch, aren't they?  Yeah,

Candice:

I think God comforts everyone and tends to our growth and sometimes that's really painful. I'm not saying it's always comfortable. 

Kurt Francom:

yeah, 

Candice:

I think we can find sufficient comfort to get through from God, but  I think the rest of it  just comes from mortality.

Kurt Francom:

absolutely.  That's the thing does God ever afflict us? I agree that we often afflict ourselves if we ever turn from God and think, well, I think I can do this one on my own or,  things are going well,  or even the life's tough, so I'm going to turn to ways I can numb or Just cope with life that aren't God, then we're going to find that affliction, right? Like, ah, this isn't working. Well, somewhere along the way you turn from God. And so  that's the love, the daily repentance. We're just constantly. Reconciling all those decisions and turning back to God every day, every week. Right? Like, all right, you are the answer. You are the answer. I'll try again. Hang with me and he will hang with us. That's the beauty of it. 

Candice:

Yes, and if we are going to believe in agency, then other humans are going to make decisions that impact us in ways that we don't care for and that we find challenging and. uncomfortable and difficult and then again, we just get to decide where to go from there.  

Kurt Francom:

Yeah.  

Candice:

We've talked about personal change a little bit. Why do you think it's so much easier to see the need for change in others than in ourselves? 

Kurt Francom:

I’m on a different side of my eyeballs than, than other people. So it's easier to see them before  I see me. I have to orient myself in front of a mirror in order to see myself.  You know,  that's a great question.  I don't know if I have a specific reason why, but it is in my nature, I can speak for myself that I'm like, huh, you know, I did it this way and it worked if they would only just.  You know, get it together. I think the main thing is just recognizing that's part of  our nature of  seeing others in that way. And oftentimes, as we're drowning in the glitter shame, you know, it's just everywhere. And we think I can't survive. So we will find people that maybe are in more chaos and think, well, least I'm not as bad as that person. Right. Yeah. Some of my kids go to church or at least what, and that's just not a great way to approach life.

Candice:

Agreed.  I think in the context of a relationship, like if I'm looking at my kids and I think, well, if they would just come to church, then it would be easier for me to have a relationship with them. Compared with an idea of just radical accountability for myself, where I just decide  Well, my job is to just become more like God and become more loving and accept his grace. And so let me see how I can do that in the context I've been given.

Kurt Francom:

Yeah. that would be easier to love them. But I'm actually  I'm going to surprise them. They think I'm going to church this week, but I'm actually going to go to that movie with them on Sunday. Right. And just sort of show up there and have them feel that love in their context, right? I don't know. I just like the challenge of it, of being like, Oh, they think I'm going to give up on them. Like I will show what that grace feels like. And if they feel that long enough, most likely they'll want to feel more of it.

Candice:

that's my working theory.

Kurt Francom:

Yeah. Yeah. We'll see how it goes. Right. 

Candice:

You may as well have a working theory that offers you hope because I was really sure when my son was six years old that he was going to serve a mission and get married in the temple and do all of these things. And I could tell you every Sunday in Relief Society how that was going to happen. I had lots of ideas about how that all worked if you just did your family home evening and all the things, which of course we did imperfectly. But I think people are themselves, and our opportunity is to help them expand their concept of that. And the journey doesn't always look like what we think it's going to look like.

Kurt Francom:

Yeah. One reframe that I often use is it's so easy to get in this posture of  wow, my child's really struggling. What a blessing that God gave them me. As their parent, because I can influence them religiously. And  when they come home for dinner, I'll turn on general conference in the background and they wouldn't have that if they didn't have me, but I would like to flip the script on that. Maybe they were given to you so that you could have a little bit softer heart, that you could create space. To have patience for those that maybe don't go to church or don't live the ideal life that you taught them to do, right? That we weren't necessarily given to them, but they were given to us as a blessing. because God's got them. He'll take care of them. But we have so much to learn along this path and what a blessing that is. 

Candice:

Yeah, I have found that I really have to expand my vision for what's possible . I was thinking about this a little bit I had all my kids over for dinner as I do maybe every month or two the ones who live near me and some of them are uncomfortable with prayer. So I don't have a blessing on the food when they come  and I've had all kinds of range of feelings about that at different points along the way since I  stopped doing that. when they're here. But recently I thought, okay, what's the benefit for the people involved of praying? Well, one of the primary benefits is that God wants us to experience gratitude. Cause I don't think gratitude's for God. I think gratitude is an experience that God wants us to have. It's a good feeling that God wants us to have. And so He encourages us to express it. And so I took a moment before we had our meal to say, Hey, I want to have a moment of gratitude and share some thoughts about that, something that was in a way that they would be more comfortable with. And the idea was to help them to feel these good feelings that God wants us to experience and to share that experience together in a way that was accessible to everyone there.  It's kind of a long road to get to the place where I'm willing to do that and I'm willing to stop feeling bad about not having a blessing on the food with my kids who  have some religious trauma. So

Kurt Francom:

Yeah.

Candice:

That’s not a good experience for them. And finding a way to express  my love for God and for them in a way that I think God gets. 

Kurt Francom:

Right. I love that idea because I think there's a misunderstanding that maybe your children or loved ones have that, Oh,   here goes mom. She's trying to  inflict me with some type of religion through this family prayer, right? When in reality, that's not your intent or what you're trying to do. You're wanting to create this posture of gratitude. And so. You just approach it differently, right? Where then you're teaching them the principle or modeling their principle of like, yeah, I just want to be a person of gratitude. And I'm sure they would say, yeah, me too. 

Candice:

One of the things that you said in your book is this, 

“When we stop seeing righteousness as a title or standard that one accomplishes, and more like a relationship journey, it unlocks a deeper understanding of grace.  Righteousness, relationship, and grace are key concepts in the gospel of Jesus Christ.”

So would you talk a little bit about what you've learned about those as you were writing Is God Disappointed in Me? What do you want people to understand most about righteousness, relationship, and grace?

Kurt Francom:

Yeah. The concept of  or the connotation of righteousness can be so heavy, it can be synonymous with Someone who's near perfect, right? And it's all throughout the scriptures this concept of righteousness, They're righteous people his people the righteous people and it can feel so heavy like oh, well, I'm definitely not living up to that So maybe I'm not his people   When through this journey, I found this unique translation of the term righteousness. It's a Hebrew translation, which means right relationship. So I may not be perfect.  I am in relationship with God. It's a fun journey or fun activity to go through, find, in the topical guide, some instances where it says righteousness in the scriptures and just replace that with  relationship.  It's such a liberating adjustment because  what God is wanting is not necessarily a perfect people. He's wanting a people who are in relationship with him. Because if we're in a relationship with him, then we are becoming more like him. If anybody's really struggling with , I'm just not living up to the standards, but I want to be in relationship with God, I think that's a better framing of some of these covenants we do. When we make covenants just like when I married my wife, maybe other people could look at our relationship and be like, Hey, you like each other. Why not? It's not just like.  Continue to be boyfriend, girlfriend, and you can still have kids and you can still move in together and whatever. But I wanted like a symbol,  a ceremony that symbolized that this is a unique relationship that I'm in. And that's exactly what  our ordinances offer us. It's a symbol, a token of being in relationship with God.  And so  when I mess up, just like  I mess up all the time in my marriage, but.  doesn't mean the marriage is over, I'm rejected, I'm out. No, we regroup and we work on things and I adjust things so that I can maintain that relationship with her. And so that's how I see my journey with God and that covenant path is that this is a relationship that I'm in. And I know that the more I  stay in this relationship and not give up. The more sanctifying it will be, the more I will become like him, and the more I'll be able to overcome some of these weaknesses I have. And so, for those that struggle,  my encouragement is  just stay in the relationship. Keep his covenants, keep his commandments, right? And I don't mean follow everyone to the T, but I like the framing of the word keep. Just hold onto it. Don't let it go. I know this is a really tough week and you've made all sorts of mistakes or I know it feels like your family's falling apart, but just hold on to that covenant hold on to it. There's power there. There's strength there. And if we let it go,  that strength isn't promised, right? Because then you're not in that relationship. So, that concept of righteousness, we should see it as right relationship.

Candice:

Thank you. I love that because I feel like that's accessible to me. It's a direct line. It doesn't depend on anybody else. It's just me and how I relate to God.  

Kurt Francom:

Yeah. My mind goes to parent  I was at a discussion about the book and I was taking some questions and this sweet mother raised her hand and said, I feel like  I'm never doing enough. What do I do with that? That I'm not doing enough and that I could do more.  I reminded her that the premise of the sacrament that we take every seven days, the premise of it is that we did not do enough. Because if we did enough,  need the sacrament. Right? Now we pass that tray around every Sunday and nobody's like ashamed of partaking of the bread and water because of course we need it. We didn't do enough. That's why we need to renew that right relationship with God. And so I hope people see that, you know, these ordinances and especially that renewing ordinance of the sacrament as renewing, as refreshing that, oh, isn't this so great that. This week again, I didn't do enough, but he lets me start over once again.

Candice:

Yeah. That's an interesting idea. I tend to think about it a little differently. I tend to think  I can just decide that what I did was enough. And I think we're getting at the same idea. That, The point is that all the difference is made up by Jesus, and so what I did was enough because there's Jesus. 

Kurt Francom:

Yeah. At the end of the day, what you did really doesn't matter.  So therefore it was enough, right? The math the same answer because Jesus did enough. It's over. It's done.

Candice:

Yeah, one of my favorite parables is about the workers. And they get hired at all different times during the day. The Parable of the Laborers is one of my, yeah.

Kurt Francom:

of the workers, but yeah, it's the labors.

Candice:

Yes, so the Parable of the Laborers and they get hired at all different points during the day and they all receive the wages.

Kurt Francom:

Yeah.

Candice:

I don't think that's the actual math of it. I think it's just kind of a demonstration to try to get at the idea that all that God has for us is available to us at any time that we reconnect. 

Kurt Francom:

No, that's, that's the power of grace.

Candice:

yeah, absolutely. It just requires that we accept it. I think a lot about the word receive. I'm not sure we give this word enough attention in our faith community, but if you stop for just a moment, it won't take you very long to hear it. We receive ordinances, we receive baptism, we receive covenants in the temple,  there's just a lot of receiving that has to happen. And I'm just curious if anything comes to mind as you think about accepting or receiving grace. 

Kurt Francom:

Yeah, it's a powerful word and it is  almost synonymous with grace because. All that is required of us is to receive it, right? He can't force it on us, or he can't inject it into our veins, like, Here's my grace, now take it! We just have to open our hands and say, Okay, I will receive it. We don't have to run out and earn anything, it will come to us as we orient ourselves towards him.

Candice:

I am so working on being more godly in this way where I'm just willing to keep offering, whether or not my children are prepared at any given moment to receive it. And it can be really challenging sometimes because it feels painful.  You can feel rejected or unappreciated or all kinds of things. Or maybe they don't even want to be in the room with you long enough to hear what you have to offer. But just trying to school my heart and my behavior, that it's coming from Love and generosity and that I'm not trying to get something from my kids. I'm trying to offer it to them and just let them decide when they're ready to receive it. If ever.

Kurt Francom:

Yeah, that's, that's powerful. And even   we offer so much and then we can be brokenhearted over and over when they reject it or ignore it, but maybe asking what are they receiving from me? Do they pick up the phone when you call,  score, you did it,  they received your phone call and maybe you can just focus there for now. And then as the relationship builds, there'll be  more offerings that will be received. 

Candice:

I love that you said that because I think sometimes we miss grace because we don't think a phone call is enough or we want something different than what we're getting and we don't see the grace in what we have. I just love how spending time with your book and these concepts has helped me to refocus on that again.

You talk about for God so loved the world that he sent his son  and  you said “he never intended to send his son to change us into something lovable.”

I   found that really helpful to consider.

Kurt Francom:

Yeah,  he loved us. That's why he sent us some because he loved us. He didn't send us on the mission to change us into something lovable. I have a tag in my scriptures about this.  A lot of times in the scriptures  the acceptance comes first and then the invitation to do something or the commandment comes later. God goes and  us and then  the commandment. This goes back to the foundational principle here is that acceptance and the power of acceptance to change us  people who want to do things, who want to keep the commandments. We have to first feel that acceptance. When we started sinning here in mortality, it wasn't a shocker surprise to God. He sent his son.  he loved us, even though we sinned and then because he sent a son, we are able to overcome that sin and become something that doesn't rely on sin. 

Candice:

That acceptance is fertile ground for growth and I think you used the word invitation and I  love to think about the phrase, come follow me as an invitation.

Kurt Francom:

Yeah.

Candice:

 I love you.  Come follow me. And it just keeps coming back. I'm just having this memory of watching The Chosen. And when Jesus meets with Nicodemus in that show and he decides not to come, but he leaves the bag of money the next day for their mission. I  had this sense that  that's probably not Nicodemus last shot. 

Kurt Francom:

Yeah.

Candice:

I think sometimes I, I read it in the story and it's this one moment, it's the only thing I know about this guy, and he didn't go. And  watching that show helped me get a sense of, well here's one interaction with Jesus  and  there's probably going to be another one, and another one, and another one, because as Elder Kearon said in General Conference, God is in relentless pursuit of you. 

Kurt Francom:

So often as parents, we feel like, oh, my child has left the church, right? Like it is a thing that it's done. That chapter is closed,  no matter how often. Somebody leaves the church, they can never leave Jesus because he's in constant pursuit of them. No Matter how many times that invitation comes, no matter how many times that invitation is rejected, he will continue to offer that invitation as many times as it takes. In a sense, that's exactly the invitation we receive every Sunday, when we partake of the sacrament.  Here's your invitation one more time, will you follow me this week? Now, no matter how long it takes for your child to really consider that invitation, matter how far in the eternities, that invitation still stands and it'll still be there. Waiting for them. 

Candice:

Yeah, I love that. And I noticed something about your language that I just wanted to point. You talked about leaving the church  and how we think of that as final sometimes. And it actually is the reason why I don't use that language when I talk about my kids. Sometimes it takes longer to say the thing, but I talk about my kids who don't come to church

Kurt Francom:

Yeah. Yeah. 

Candice:

they didn't come this past Sunday and it's been many Sundays since they have. So right now, They don't come to church, and that's what I know about them.

Kurt Francom:

Yeah.

Candice:

 I hold some space for the fact that God probably knows more about them than I do. And might have a better picture of where they are and what it means about where they are.  I find a lot of comfort and hope  in that idea.

Kurt Francom:

Perfect. Cause yeah, we don't want to put these conclusions  on our statements because  God is infinite. His wisdom reaches far beyond anything we can imagine.

Well, Kurt, usually at the end of my interviews, I ask the parent I'm interviewing how their child not coming to church has brought them closer to Jesus. Your children are still quite young and still coming to church.

Kurt Francom:

Yeah. I them, but you know, it's age appropriate. 

Candice:

So, I'd like to ask you how writing this book, Is God Disappointed in Me?, has brought you closer to Jesus.

Kurt Francom:

Wow. You know, I have to say it's one thing to know the gospel. It's a whole other thing to be able to articulate the gospel. And I wish everybody. have the opportunity of writing this book,  in their own words,  I invite you to do that if you want to do that. Or how would you articulate some of these concepts in your own experience, your own life. And to seek God just show up for me in these moments and reminding me that I still need grace. he's constantly reminding me , Kurt,  you could never write another book. You don't even have to finish this book. I'd still love you.  That's beautiful.  I could never go to church again and he'd still love me. And it's that paradox that orients me to him thinking, how can you love me so fully?  you can, I'll do anything for you. tell me what you want me to do. I'll follow you. I just want to be closer to you. I want to be in relationship with you. So I feel like it's brought me closer to Christ just by attempting to articulate. His grace in my own words, and that made it a better fit for my heart. I was able to embrace him more able to remind myself of it. And I hope I never lose that.  I don't want to be naive enough to think that I've arrived at some level that I fully understand this dynamic of grace, but I just want more of it. And I know he has more of it for me to receive. 

Candice:

I love that. I want more of it, too. Thank you so much for being here, Kurt.

Kurt Francom:

Thanks for the invitation.

Candice:

Oh, my pleasure. I will just remind everyone there are no empty chairs.