Embracing My Journey - An Interview with Susan Hinckley and Cynthia Winward of At Last She Said It - Episode 33

Candice talks with Susan Hinckley and Cynthia Winward as part of At Last She Said It's "Embracing Your Journey" series

Quotes from the episode
“A covenant is not a cage” -Candice
“People want to hear what I have to say” - Candice

"Your Divine Nature and Eternal Destiny" by Dale Renlund,  April 2022

At-One-Ment, by Thomas Wirthlin McConkie

“Big Voice—go ahead.” —Mrs. Frazzled (here)

“God is in relentless pursuit of you.” —Patrick Kearon

You found me! If what you heard on the No Empty Chairs podcast gives you hope for more help, please schedule a free Conversation with Candice. You can also visit candiceclarkcoaching.com for more information about how coaching tools can help you keep your relationship with your children and your faith. While you're there, be sure to pull up a chair and sign up with your email to be the first to know about news and events for moms whose kids don't come to church.

It's going to be okay, and even better!

Transcript

  I'm Candice Clark, and this is No Empty Chairs, Episode 33, Embracing My Journey. An interview with Susan Hinckley and Cynthia Winward of At Last She Said It. 

Did you know that you can have a great relationship with your adult children even if you have faith differences? My name is Candice Clark. I'm a mom, a professional certified life coach with advanced certification in faith based coaching, and a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. 

If you're willing to make more room for difference in your family and your church, I can show you how. Let's go! 

Hi, everyone. Thanks for being here today. A few weeks ago, I sat down with Susan and Cynthia from At Last She Said It and talked a little bit about my experience as a woman in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. So, in case you missed it over there, I wanted to bring that interview to you here. 

So, Here it is. 

Hello, I'm Cynthia Winward. And I'm Susan Hinckley. And this is At Last She Said It. We are women of faith discussing complicated things. And the title of this week's episode is  Embracing Your Journey, A Conversation with Candice Clark. Welcome, Candice. Hi, Candice. Hi,  thanks so much for having me. I'm excited.

We're excited to have you. I feel like we run in a lot of the same hallways. Is that right? Susan, we see,  we see Candice online and in different groups that we're in. Uh, you recently saw her Susan at an event that you were both at in the Midwest. So I'm excited, Candice, for us to finally get together and learn a little bit more about you as we put you in the hot seat today and  are embracing your journey.

Episodes are some of our favorite. Episodes because right, Susan, I feel like we really get into the meat and potatoes of a woman's spiritual journey. And I always end up finding something resonant, something that makes me go me too, or something that makes me go, wow, that's. I want to start whatever, maybe doing that or looking at things that way.

So these are our favorite conversations. And so we're so glad that we are going to get to know you a bit more today. Uh, before we jump in, can you, you, Candice, just kind of give us a quick snapshot, we'll, we'll get into details later, but just give our listeners.  Anything you'd like them to know about you that will kind of give context to where we're headed today.

Yeah, I have been a participating member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints my entire life. I grew up in Oregon and then went to high school in Utah. It's the second of six children. My parents both grew up in Utah. And now I live in Iowa. And I have three kids. Five adult children who are ages 19 to 31.

And I was an at home parent for a long time. And now I have a full time job and I also became a life coach for moms whose kids don't come to church because I have five of those.  And in that process, I started a podcast, uh, called no empty chairs, where I talk about things that have helped me, that, you know,  Gospel principles and ways of seeing the world and coaching tools that have helped me to  really build better relationships with my kids and be respectful of their journeys.

I have a feeling that there are a lot of women who just sat forward in their chairs and are thinking, Aha, another conversation with another mom whose children are no longer attending the church and So I want to hear more. And I can, I can also imagine, I mean, for half a second there, I was thinking that's a very specific focus, Candice, for a life coaching business.

And then I was like, no, it's not. Oh, so needed. Yeah. I mean, I, I mean, if we count up all our children right here, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, between the three of us, we have 11 children and only one One attends, it sounds like. That's amazing. Yeah, that's my son. So  that's a pretty big hole you're probably trying to fill right now, Candice, with, with so many parents who just need a little extra. 

A little extra help in figuring this out because we don't get a whole lot of help, I think, when we're attending church on Sundays with how to navigate these complicated family situations. So, wonderful. Yeah, the way the stories are told at church are sometimes It's painful and not hopeful. And I just have found that I have really had to shift my focus to my personal faith in the infinite atonement of Jesus Christ, because there's a lot of other stuff around it that  doesn't match my story.

And I just have to choose what I want to believe about. What God thinks of me and what God thinks of my kids. Well, and as hard as it was for me to get my head around the idea that I don't have to save myself, speaking of the atonement, it was really hard for me to also give away the idea that I'm responsible to save other people like my children.

Yeah. I've had to save all of us through, through my hard work and my worthiness and all those things. So those are really pervasive ideas in our culture. And I feel like a lot of women end up in this. Space in the last she said it space where they're maybe starting to question things or, you know, something has launched them on a journey of some kind, and it very often involves.

Something around their children, our family members. So thank you for being a coach for the women in this space because so many of us need you.  Yeah. Well, Susan's gonna lead our discussion today. She's going to kind of go through those same, I don't know, five questions, Susan, that we like to ask women on these episodes.

So. Take it away, Susan.  Yeah, we always like to start these episodes with getting a snapshot of your LDS life. Candice, can you tell us a little bit about your experiences as a Latter day Saint woman and sort of how you got To where you are right now. Sure. Yeah. I, um, I was baptized at age eight in Oregon.

And when I was 13, I moved to Provo, Utah. And that was a culture shock for me because we had been in the mission field. We don't talk about the mission field as much anymore. But when I was a kid, Living outside of Utah, we were in the mission field and  coming back to Utah. And I had high expectations for what that was going to be like and how great it was going to be.

And it was really hard. I, well, I can, I have that same culture shock at 18  when I moved to Provo, Candace and, I'm 50 and I still haven't gotten over it because I'm still on Provo, so. Cause you're still there. Yeah. I never cease to be amazed.  Yeah. It was a hard transition for me. I was very much a nerd and I, but I really did hang a lot of my identity on being a member of the church.

So I was really excited to be around a lot of church members and that didn't really go exactly as I had hoped because  everyone else was also a teenage girl.  So  it's a tricky time. Um, but I did find some really good friends starting about the middle of my junior year that I'm friends with to this day.

So I found my people eventually, but it took a while and it was just a huge change, but I attended BYU after graduation, all of. It seems to be a family requirement in my family that you  attend BYU. Pretty sure you're not alone.  Yeah, but I had a great experience at BYU. I loved it. I lived on campus my freshman year and taught Relief Society, team taught, which was the weirdest thing to try to teach a lesson with another person.

Hmm.  So I did that as a 17 year old. I was a little young as I graduated. I had just turned 17. I just, I loved BYU. But eventually I met a returned missionary and got married at age 19, having completed three years of college.  Wow. Um, one other piece of BYU that was really important to me was going on study abroad.

I had been on a road trip to Canada with my family. That was the extent of my international travel. And I went to Vienna for a six month study abroad, which just  blew my world open. And I really loved that. And so I felt like when I got married at age 19, I had had a lot of experiences that not every 19 year old has had.

And then. Our first child was born the first day of my second semester as a graduate student, also at NYU. So you went straight on to graduate work after you graduated. Okay. Yes, in comparative literature. So the  part of my upbringing was that there wasn't a focus on, Having a career, and I actually have had conversations with my older sister about this, and she felt very much like she should pursue a career because she got this message.

She could do anything she wanted, and I very much felt like I shouldn't because I got this message that the best and most important thing I could do is be a mom.  And so we have the same parents and we're only a year and a half apart. Well, two and a half years apart. So, you know, it's just been kind of interesting to have some of those conversations with my sister.

Nevertheless, my,  what I received and heard was not planning to provide for myself. And so I was just free to.  Study comparative literature, which with no plans to become a comparative literature professor or anything like, it's just something that I enjoyed doing and I love school. So you're saying like, even though you grew up in the same home with your sister, the same parents probably had a lot of the same.

Uh, obviously the same bishops, but same mutual teachers and that kind of thing.  You absorb the idea that you didn't need to be marketable as an adult. And she said, well, no, of course I need to be marketable and playing for a career.  And I think she actually felt some pressure to do that.  Yeah. I I'm not sure what to make of that.

I'm still, this is a recent discovery that I've made with my sister. And so I'm still kind of puzzling through it and I have other, sisters that I need to have conversations with. Yes. It reminds me of you and your sister, Cynthia, who are so close in age. Yes. Or even in some of the same classes, but having radically different experiences.

Yes. In the church. And I always think it's so cool when that shows up in our conversations, because I really think that It's hard for us to understand sometimes how the, you know, woman sitting in the chair next to us is not hearing or internalizing the messages at all in the same way that we are. But I think if I had internalized those messages differently, I might have paid more attention to the fact that I took AP Calculus in, you know, like I could have done any number of things.

I also took AP English, but it's not like I didn't have skills outside of the liberal arts. But I just had no plans to do anything other than graduate from college. And then I was married. When I graduated from college and so I just liked to be in school and I, so I kept going cause that was a great time for me.

And I, I lived near family who could help me with childcare. Love it. I love the idea of a woman just studying what she wants to study because she wants to. It was a really good experience and I think really formed who I am. Now, I, I don't know that I have any regrets about that, but I sort of envisioned this parallel timeline where I also did something that paid well, um, right,  or at all,  paid at all.

Um, so I followed my husband around for his career. He did medical school at the university of Utah. And then.  We moved to Iowa to continue his training. And so there were some moves within Iowa a little bit, but I've lived in Iowa ever since his training brought us out here. Um, and then I've served in most ward callings.

I, when I, when we moved to Iowa city, that's where I live now. When we moved back to Iowa city this most recent time, which was the  17 years ago. Um,  I was called to be the in the primary presidency. So I've, I've had a lot of service opportunities to be in the primary presidency and a primary teacher and I've served in young women presidency.

And. Relief Society. And most recently I was just released a few weeks ago as our stake self reliance specialist. And now I'm having so much fun with the new hymns as the word music leader, and I get to lead the hymns at the tempo. I want to sing them. So important that only works if you have an organist an organist who will play at the tempo that you will okay them to play But yes, that's a dream of such things.

That's marvelous Yes, that is God's work Candace  Seeing the hymns at the tempo they should be sung at 

Well, I'm hearing a lot of ways that your life and your sort of trajectory in the church, uh, fit the mold pretty well, I have to say, Candice. So congratulations on that. But how about if we talk about maybe some books? Things that have not fit the mold so well. So, well, when my family moved back to Iowa city, um, I had five children.

The youngest  was not quite two years old. Um, I think they were, the oldest was 13 maybe. And it was a lot and I got everybody situated and then I kind of fell apart a little bit.  And so I spent some time beginning to learn how to take care of myself. Um, because no one had been doing that,  I've come to believe that it was my job all along. 

I thought my job was to take care of everybody else and then someone else was going to take care of me. And that didn't go well for me. I just was kind of spent. So I took a mindfulness based stress reduction course and I did a bunch of therapy. And then, um, eventually we landed in marriage therapy and I did that for eight years. 

Wow. Mm. We had four different marriage therapists and it was just this kind of long process of me taking more and more responsibility for my own experience and then realizing that that's what I got to choose was what I did and I didn't get to choose what someone else did, how they responded, how they chose to engage. 

And it just, it just wasn't going well. And I really did invest a lot of effort into trying to make it go well.  In the end, what happened was that I came to the place where I was willing to take responsibility for deciding that  it was not a place I wanted to be.  It was so painful. Um, that was an interesting family reunion. 

We, we, yeah, we had this family reunion and then we had this parent segment of it that was overnight. And so at this adult segment, I, my husband was there with us for part of it and then he left. And after he left, I shared with my family, my siblings and parents who are all married except my brother who has Down syndrome that I was probably going to file for divorce when I got home. 

So, wow. But getting to that place required me to reframe my relationship with God and with my identity of my role, because it was just going to precipitate a lot of changes in my family.  And most of those did not go how I expected them to go. And so, Being willing to accept responsibility for whatever was going to come.

Even when I didn't know what that was, um, that was a big shift for me to feel like, okay, God is okay with me, whether or not I'm married  because I took my My covenants really seriously and frankly still do. Um, but a covenant is not a cage.  And I just decided that my wellbeing mattered enough to take it into my own hands.

So I did, it was really scary and it took me a long time to get there. I don't recommend a five year. treading water  . Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. . But it's, it's a tough.  And I think it's actually was easier here where I live now than it would have been in Utah  because I'm in a, I'm in less of a fishbowl in my ward and my word was actually great.

It was really helpful that my Bishop was willing to have conversations and he was the most awesome, optimistic person I've ever met. Eventually he was like, Oh, okay, I see that you're making a decision here and there's stuff that I have not been privy to and, and I just felt supported and I feel like we managed it well. 

I had this particular moment, I was talking to somebody after we'd been divorced a year or more, and she didn't know that we were divorced.  So I was like, okay, I guess we did all right in, you know, not making a public mess of that. So did you stay in the same ward? Yes. Okay. Yes, we did. And we are still in the same ward.

Oh, wow. Yep. Yeah, I did that on purpose. I bought a house in the same ward because that's where my people were  and because I didn't want my children to have to deal with two sets of ward leaderships.  So I did that on purpose. Okay. It, it was really hard for a while. I was going to say that sounds hard.

It's helpful that he, his work schedule means that he's only there about half the time.  And so with our new. Schedule where it's, you know, every other week relief society or whatever. We're rarely required to be in the same room with each other, maybe once a month, other than in sacrament meeting. So we just don't really interact, but it's been kind of a journey to calm my nervous system around that and to settle in  to that whole experience.

And it was a hard experience for my kids. Um, when we first started. I moved into a rental house very first when we separated, and my kids. the two youngest that came, had to go back and forth. But it was a hard experience for them. And over the succeeding months, it became more challenging. And at some point it got to the point where they didn't really want to, they didn't want to go back and forth and they didn't really enjoy interacting with me.

And I don't really know.  What all that was about, but I just, and sort of leading up to saying there, I remember this one Sunday I was substituting at the last minute, the Bishop  different subsequent Bishop  asked me to lead the music for sacrament meeting. And we were singing families can be together forever. 

And so I'm standing up there, this divorced mom of five kids leading. I have a family here on earth. They are so good to me. And that's the part that was actually painful. It wasn't that because I was divorced. It was because at that moment, my children weren't talking to me. And so just having those relationships not be.

What I wanted them to be  was really,  really hard and feeling like I've messed up a lot of things and I recognize that I was under a lot of stress. Um, and I'm going to talk a little bit about my experience in the later years of my marriage and as we worked through that divorce process. And so, of course, that impacted how I parented, but I'm not the worst parent ever. 

And I have engaged in a lot of growth intentionally.  And it just felt so unfair  that  at that particular moment, my Some of my children were not very good to me and I was operating in a, in a vacuum of information. Like I didn't know what was happening. I didn't know what was going on in their minds that made this so that they, uh, the, the, my fourth child turned 18 and then. 

They and their younger sibling both stopped coming to my parenting time. So they haven't spent any parenting time at my house since number four turned eight, uh, 18 and didn't have to anymore. And I mean, I can kind of get that. I don't want to live in two houses either. But it was painful because I thought that I was their home and that they would pick me.

And their dad is still in the marital home where the youngest had lived since age two. So that did not go as I expected it to go at all. This is an incredible story. story to me.  As a Latter day Saint woman, I think because the idea of, you know, the 19 year old who gets married and then later realizes she hasn't prioritized herself in her life.

Some ways that have been detrimental to her and does something about that And it sounds like your relationship with God was tied into all of this. Also. Yeah I mean you had feelings about yourself obviously or knowledge about yourself that you acted on and I feel like there are probably a lot of women who would listen to this conversation and I'm not sure they would even Know where to begin to access that That kind of power over their own lives when they're in a situation like you were  it just it was a line up online Thing for me to get to that place but I will say that there were a couple of things that had an outsized impact and one of those things is Dr.

Jennifer Finlayson Fife's work and just learning how to take responsibility for my life and my choices and my experience. And, you know, I will listen to anything she puts out because she has blessed my life so much. Um, It was so challenging, but it's kind of like the pain of the solution  became more attractive than the pain of the problem.

Right, right. Because it is really uncomfortable to grow and it's really uncomfortable to just make decisions by yourself.  It was not an easy or a quick process, but it did kind of accelerate in that last year of my marriage. Um, another thing that happened is that the first summer after we were separated, My kids went on a vacation with me for three weeks and then I had three weeks without them.

This is the first time in my adult life  that I had had three weeks alone. And so I decided to go to Austria, which is where I studied abroad.  And so I spent two weeks in Austria by myself and my companion was Jodi Moore's podcast, better than happy. Like we walked all over Vienna and Salzburg together,  me and Jodi.

And it helped me so much. It really helped me again. They're very practical tools. It's kind of the,  some more of the how that I, I learned.  And who was learning from Jennifer and it just was strengthening me and retraining my brain and my way of thinking that made me feel more confident in myself and that I actually am the person who should be making decisions for myself. 

I should not be sitting around waiting for someone else to make them for me. 

I'm sure there are challenges that come along with being a divorced. woman in this church, but do you feel like there's been any kind of extra layer of difficulty to explain or get support from people for the way that this unfolded? Was that hard for you or like within your family? Um, having to explain yourself, I can see how that might've been challenging.

Am I thinking about that right? Or was that not your experience?  It was very challenging. Uh, this  Family reunion. I referenced I, you know, I kind of waited till we finished dinner and I'd given my one sibling a heads up.  We're going to have this conversation. I'm going to tell everybody my parents had no idea and  Most of my family lives in Utah and sees each other frequently, and I live far away, and they see us infrequently.

And so they just didn't have a window  on my actual life. And so they just very patiently listened. It was probably a couple hours where I just tried to explain to them.  What my life looked like and,  and how hard it had been and how I'd come to this decision. And I will say that I  am really grateful for their just instant support. 

Um, there wasn't any judgment. There wasn't any second guessing about whether I should do this or not.  They just expressed that they were there for me and, Kind of as the intensity of the emotion was cresting and subsiding, my sister said, well,  let's go bake these cookies. Like we need some chocolate.  Like the dementor emotional recovery plan.

And they have just been really an unflagging support for me in the ways that they can from far away, which is really challenging. And in my ward, again, I. I don't think There were a lot of people who had a really clear picture of what our family life looked like. There were people who thought they did like, right.

Of course, a former Bishop who wrote an affidavit for  my husband and didn't realize that he was taking a side in a legal dispute, um, who had been our home teacher and thought that he had a, A picture of our lives,  like that was a hard thing, that particular thing, but for the most part, I just had a close knit group of friends that I could count on who kind of carried me through and one in particular who had spent enough time with our family because she has three kids my kids age. 

And she's also very astute.  So she had picked up on signals that I think most people miss. And so I just feel like I did have what I needed and I had resources of therapy. And at one point my stake president. to attend whatever ward I wanted to attend. And I'm like, well, that doesn't really help me because this is where my people are.

Um, but thank you.  Yeah. No, I mean, I sort of appreciated the gesture.  He's like, this is one thing I can do for you is for it to be okay for you to attend a different ward than your, your ex husband. And it was kindly, kindly, Given, you know, I just felt like people were willing to do what they were able to do and I think what's challenging  Still is just being a single woman at church. 

I mean, I can count on one hand, the number of men in my ward that I think would be comfortable having a conversation with me without their wife present. Like, so it's just really challenging to have male friendships because we've trained in this discomfort. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Because we're paranoid about inappropriate behavior and I really just want to have a conversation about things that I'm interested in and, you know, with a variety of people.

And male energy is something that is not as present in my life as it used to be, uh, because I'm no longer married.  So that's been kind of a tricky thing to navigate. Um, well, I don't know that it's necessarily tricky. It's just been something that I noticed. Like, the male organist sits two chairs away from me.

on the stand. Um,  and maybe that's because that's an easier spot for him to then walk down and sit with his family when the deacons go sit down. Right. But maybe that's not the only part of it. I don't know. And it's probably completely subconscious. Oh, but those ruts are deep, aren't they? Yeah. For all of us, I think.

I don't even know if we're getting better in this area. Like, what you're talking about, Candice, like, we see women as Jezebels, and we see men as humans who can't control themselves. And, even now, in 2024, I feel like that's kind of still how we treat people, treat the opposite sex in church. Uh, you can't be alone together, I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've  Talked to leaders and I've said, you know, why can't a woman hold this calling?

Well, then because then she would be alone in a room with a man and I'm like, oh my gosh You did not just say that to me. Yeah  Wow, there are so many layers to unpack to that kind of an answer that I don't see us getting better I mean, I have some discomfort too. I so my My bishop used to be my ministering brother,  my current bishop. 

And the other day I was standing up, putting up the music.  And he came over to ask me about something. Well, he was actually just so excited that I had scheduled one of the new hymns. And he, like, made to give me a hug because he is like my brother. Like, I would hug him like I would hug my brother. But we're standing up on the stand in front of him.

Of the chapel and I'm the one who turned and gave him a side hug, you know, because like, there's just this discomfort, uh, about, I felt like I was in a fishbowl standing up.  Whereas if we'd been standing on my front lawn, I would have just hugged him, you know, I'm all for using good judgment, but I just would like more people to chat with me On Sundays in the foyer. 

Right, right. Because I have plenty of female friends. I have no shortage of women I can count on, but it just would be a better model of collaboration that I would like to see at church. 

Well, let's zoom out for a minute to about 30, 000 feet. We've done that. We've talked about really specific things about your life, but I would love to know more about your life. Um, as a Latter day Saint woman, what are some of the things in the church that really have worked well for you and some of the things that maybe are more frustrating for you?

Yeah, I have just loved being part of Relief Society. And I remember my mother trained me in this. I will give her credit. That when you're serving in young women and when you're serving in primary, you're still in the Relief Society. And that connection of sisterhood has been a meaningful part of my life and church and Relief Society has been a way that I have been able to meet women who then I'm like, ah, I want to get to know her.

I, you know, someone says something in Sunday School or Relief Society. And I'm like, oh yes. That's, I want to be friends with her.  Um,  and I have built those friendships over years and really invested in people who have also invested in me that have really been supportive. So I'm really grateful for that instant community because I do find it challenging to make new friends.

And so when you move to a new place and you go to your ward, well, here's a  town  that  you can see and connect with on some level. And I also appreciate that it has thrust me  up with people that I wouldn't have chosen otherwise, if I was serving with them in a calling or ministering relationships or, or whatever.

Because those have expanded my world and experience and helped me develop more compassion and, um, those are just really lovely things that I appreciate about my experience at church. Oh, I have an example of this. So, okay. Um, My son got married a couple of years ago and we had a zoom meeting with all the bridal party and the parents to, to plan.

And the maid of honor was in a little bit of a panic about how they were going to get  all of the homemade lasagna. My daughter in law wanted her homemade lasagna recipe. So they were going to make the lasagnas and freeze them, but they needed to. Bake them and have them hot for the reception. And there's only just the one standard oven at the venue.

And this seemed like the biggest insurmountable problem they could imagine. And I was like, Oh no! You need people to heat food and drop it off at an appointed time?  I have the people who know how to do this. Our, our ward actually, our stake participates in the free lunch program. And when it's our ward's turn, we are often doing frozen lasagnas that we're baking and dropping off to the people who are going to serve those.

And so I'm like, I, I know I have a small army of people who are not only willing, but delighted to do this for my son's wedding. And so I just love that. Yeah,  it's a pretty great story.  Oh, reheat lasagna. And Costco hams and  potatoes. Like, like, we know how long, what temperature we've got that part. Yeah.

Yeah. There are some things we're not quite so good at though. Candace, tell us, uh, tell us about a few of those things, maybe that have been more challenging for you. When I first moved here and I was called into the primary presidency, we had activity days and cub scouts at the same time at two different buildings.

And then we had, oh, wow, that's supposed to work classes well, because we were combining wards for activities. Okay. So, got it. Like, it was, you know, some subsets meeting at one building, some meeting at the other. And then, um, the youth was, you know,  A second time later in two different places, I can't remember the exact breakdown of the groups, but we did have a family in our ward that had one kid in each of those things.

So getting them all to their activities was crazy and they were very gracious about it. And we're like, well, it's Wednesday night. This is what we do. And I'm looking at that going, that is insane. Why are we doing this to families?  Because  my husband's job made him not available very much. And it was really just me doing these things.

And so I, um, it was very scary for me to say, you know, my experience and my two year old's experience driving all over town all night matter.  to try to get that to change. And it was, it was not immediately well received, but eventually we ended up shifting that when we were meeting and consolidated times.

And like we were thinking about serving the youth and meeting the needs of the youth and having them be together and not thinking about the impact on families. Right. As president Packer would say, particularly the mother, when you schedule a family,  particularly the mother. And that was me. And I had five kids and I was like, what are we doing?

I don't know if I can do this. And I have to think that, you know, the people sitting in those meetings, making the decisions were not the mothers doing the driving. That would be my guess. And the default is, well, people can carpool. And so I looked, I'm like, who are the people? And can they carpool? Well, no, they have like, some of them are in young women callings and their student families, they only have one car, like all of these logistics that you're like, oh, it will work out.

I'm like, this is not actually working very well.  I love that you were willing to speak up about that.  Yes. Thank you. It was a transitional moment for me. Like, I, I have this idea that I shouldn't complain because everybody's doing their best, right?  And I think we confuse trying to make things better with complaining.

Like, you know,  If it weren't working for the men, then we would address it, right? Hands down. If we need food for an event, the men, they're just going to buy it.  They're not going to make it all from scratch.  Anyway, so, so that's something that's frustrating for me. And as I chose hymns for Mother's Day this year, I was like, there are not a lot of options.

And then I chose hymns for Father's Day and I'm like, I could choose hymns for Father's Day for the next 10 years because every hymn talks about Heavenly Father. So it, it's really tricky. And you know, a couple of years ago, Elder Renlund spoke about  Heavenly Mother and Oh, he did? 

The talk of the ground. Sorry.  Yeah, well. I love Elder Renlund. He was my stake president when I was the Relief Society president in my ward, when my husband was in medical school, and Elder Renlund was our stake president, and I remember the ward council he came to, and we sang the opening hymn, How Firm a Foundation, 

And then he said, if it's all right, I'd like to sing the rest of the verses. And then he said to himself, of course it's, of course it's all right. I'm presiding at this meeting.  , . God, that's not funny. What would that be like?  little training moment for the student leaders at that word council. But so I love him and I was really excited when he began this talk. 

It seemed pretty promising to me. But as he went on, I felt like what he ended up saying was that knowing more about Heavenly Mother Was not important enough to pursue or, or, or didn't matter. I actually pulled a little quote from it. He said, ever since God appointed prophets, they've been authorized to speak on his behalf, but they do not pronounce doctrines fabricated of their own mind or teach what has not been revealed sidebar.

They have done that very thing.  Back to Elder Renlund, demanding revelation from God is both arrogant and unproductive. Instead, we wait on the Lord and his timetable to reveal his truths through the means that he has established. And I felt like he was calling me arrogant and unproductive because I wanted to know more about Heavenly Mother.

And in fact, I was hoping that he would be praying for that very thing. And After he said that, I said to myself, well, I guess he's not the one.  Hmm.  If the apostles are not the means that God has established for receiving revelation for the church, then I just, I found it confusing and kind of crushing actually for a while because I have been through periods of my life when I really mourned. 

That absence of more information about Heavenly Mother. And  I can't explain why it came on and why after a few months, it kind of subsided, nothing was resolved.  I just felt less intense grief about it. It just kind of felt like a kick in the teeth from someone that I knew. And admired and appreciated. 

And it was hard.  Um,  I have a question, Candice. So you said that crushed any hopes that he might be the apostle praying. What was that? Because you knew him previously, he had demonstrated to you in other experiences you had had with him as a state president, that,  that he might be someone who was willing to. 

Revelation? I'm just curious. Or are you just speaking about him as apostle in general? I think him in particular and it's nothing he ever said about Heavenly Mother. Like I have no specific reason to hope that from him, except that I did watch his interactions with his wife, who actually rarely came to our ward.

Because they had a teenager at home and felt like she needed to be in her home ward. And so they didn't drag her over to the campus ward, but Ruth came and taught relief society in my ward one Sunday. And I felt like I had a little bit of a sense for their relationship. And I'm aware that she's had a career and he has a daughter who is not married.

And I just, Made a bunch of assumptions  after that. I did too, Candice. I did too. I just had assumed that, you know, a man who had a wife who was a corporate attorney would maybe have a different perspective on things, so. And, and I don't know what precipitated this particular thing. I, I mean, I feel like he was probably talking about someone who is not me, who was actually being arrogant and unproductive.

Cause That's generous. There are all people doing all kinds of behaviors that Right. But I don't feel like he made space for me to  have the desires that I have around Heavenly Mother and not be thrown in that category. 

Well, Candice, because this is At Last She Said It, I always like to get some sense of how a woman's voice fits in with all of this. So maybe because I'm a person who has had such a difficult time learning to speak up in the church context. Can you tell us a little bit about how your voice fits your faith life?

Is it something that comes easily to you? Is it something that you have developed over time? Tell us a little more about that. Yeah. I, I think I've described a little bit how it really has. Yeah. Developed over time. I would dip my toe in a little bit to talk about the crazy Wednesday night driving schedule.

And then  it's just that one, one thing that impacts me that I have a different view on than one I'm seeing represented and that it was okay that I said that even it wasn't initially embraced. It was okay that I had brought it up and I still struggle with confidence that it's going to be okay that I brought it up because I, I just somehow have built a sense that, well, I can think of the phrase, you shouldn't bother the bishop or, you know, like you just, you shouldn't bother these people about these things because they have important work to do.

Uh,  and,  you know, I'm just recognizing that I have an increasing sense of. My own importance and the importance of  my view and the things that I can see that maybe not everyone else does. So it's been really, really hard, but I just, I cultivate that. And I try to follow Elizabeth Gilbert's advice from her book, Big Magic, where she talks about  not letting fear drive, like fear, you can be here.

But you're going to not be in the driver's seat and we're just going to carry along. So, you know, I, I, I practice what I preach as a life coach, that I cultivate thoughts that serve me. And I've got three of them up here on my wall, right above my head, where I record my podcast. One of them says, people want to hear what I have to say.

Mm. And I believe that more and more. And it's really helpful that this week I got a message from someone actually who is in my stake, but she just found my podcast and she said, I've listened to almost all of them and it's made me feel more hopeful and more connected and nice. It was just really. Nice.

I'm like, Oh, she wanted to hear what I have to say. Oh, so good. Yeah. So that's really validating, but I try to validate myself and remember that people want to hear what, what I have to say.  Another one is, um, there is no right way. And I have to tell you, Susan and Cynthia, your podcast gave me pause for a minute because there was a moment where I'm like, well,  if I do a podcast, it's got to be all of these things.

And I just decided that there is no right way. And I'm going to just say, I'm just going to do the podcast that I can and want to put out. And it doesn't have to be At Last She Said It because  you all are doing it At Last She Said It. I was just going to say, please don't do our podcast. We already doing it. Do your podcast.

Yes. Yes. But I thought I had to do my podcast topic in the way that you're doing your podcast. And so, you know, even just within the last year before I started, I, that was something that a hurdle I had to get myself over to start publishing my podcast. And one I just ran across recently and added, it says, big voice, go ahead. 

This comes from social media personality who's a former elementary school teacher. Her name is Mrs. Frazzled,  and she does these  satirical little snippets where she gently parents people who are doing kind of obnoxious things. And so in this one, she's kind of gently parenting a mansplainer who had interrupted.

Another per a girl and then so she goes through all that process of talking to him about how he should do it differently and gently explaining all of that. And then she turns her head back to the girl and says, big voice, go ahead. And I thought, okay, that's what I need. That's what I need to tell myself  when I'm getting ready to say something.

I love it. Wow. That's amazing.  Well, Candice, one of the reasons that we like to do these conversations with a variety of different women is that we hope that we can give other women who are maybe just starting on this path or not really comfortable yet or knowing where they're going, something that they can grab onto.

We feel like if we come at it from a lot of different perspectives, there's bound to be something for someone listening. And so do you have any advice that you would maybe give other women? Who are  having a challenging time embracing their own individual faith journey.  Yes, I would say learn how to make decisions for yourself.

And then be kind to yourself, no matter what.  Both parts of that are essential. You can't have one without the other. Because not every decision is going to go well. It's, you're not necessarily going to be happy with it. But if you can be kind to yourself and not make that mean that you're worthless,  then that's, that's great.

a fundamental skill. I mean, that really is what allows growth and repentance, which I just think is growth, um,  is  your ability to have kindness for the things that you may not be proud of and to move forward. It's just essential.  Beautiful. I feel like if I embroidered that and put it on a throw pillow, it might help me actually.

So thank you. Thank you for that.  All right, Candice, for our last couple of minutes here, can we ask you some fun Get to Know You questions? What is a favorite book of yours? I recently read At One Ment by Thomas McConkie and just really loved it and did all his meditation practices. I keep coming back to those audio recordings and that.

I love that book. I was just going to say, I would want to listen to that book so I could hear it in his gorgeous voice actually.  That would be great.  I hear it's a beautiful book now. Thanks for reminding me.  Who's a woman that you look up to?  Oh, I think I'm going to say Cristi Gleason. She's a woman in my ward that has just, I couldn't even begin to describe the ways that she has  been kind and supportive and an example of persisting in faith and yeah, she's blessed my life a lot. 

I love that. What's a favorite quote of yours? Something you keep above your computer like you were talking about or  something on your phone? What's something you come back to? Yeah, I think that the thing I'm coming back to from the most recent general conference is Patrick Kieran  saying, God is in relentless pursuit of you.

I just love to remember that God is in relentless pursuit of me and of my children and there's no need to panic because. God can consecrate anything to my gain. God is in relentless pursuit of you. So good. And lastly, what do you know? What's one thing that you know today? I know that what I want matters.

And that is not something that I knew 15 years ago. Um,  as a Mormon mother raised in the church, I am really grateful to have finally learned that my desires matter.  They do matter. They don't matter any more than anyone else's desires and they also don't matter less.  It's good to know what I want, whether or not I get it.

Wow. Okay, I changed my mind. I'm going to embroider that on a pillow.  You have a lot of embroidery ahead of you, Susan. Well, you know what? You say a lot of smart things, Candice, so I'm going to blame you for that.  And where can people find you? Yes. You can go to my website, candasclarkcoaching. com and find out about working with me there.

You can also look for my podcast, wherever you find podcasts. It's called No Empty Chairs.  Perfect. We'll have all of it in our show notes.  Thank you so much for having this conversation with us. Thanks again. Oh, it's been my absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me. 

Well, at last I said it. And now I will just remind you, there are no empty chairs. 

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Click on the link in the show notes to schedule a free conversation with Candice, the coach for moms whose kids don't come to church. Or go to my website, CandiceClarkCoaching.  com You can also find me on Facebook, Candice Clark Coaching. Thanks for listening!