Good Hearts: A Conversation with Tina Gosney - Episode 45

Tina Gosney, the Family Conflict Coach, shares some of what she's learned as a relationship coach and as a mom of kids who don't come to church--kids with good hearts.

To learn more from Tina and her good heart, follow her podcast Coaching Your Family Relationships or visit her website to find out how you can work with her.

You found me! If what you heard on the No Empty Chairs podcast gives you hope for more help, please schedule a free Conversation with Candice. You can also visit candiceclarkcoaching.com for more information about how coaching tools can help you keep your relationship with your children and your faith. While you're there, be sure to pull up a chair and sign up with your email to be the first to know about news and events for moms whose kids don't come to church.

It's going to be okay, and even better!

Transcript

 Welcome to No Empty Chairs today. I am so excited to be coming through for you on my promise to bring you more parent interviews this year. And today I have with me, my friend, Tina Gosney. Tina and I met each other in the life coaching community online, and  we are currently both moderators in the Bridges Facebook group that's support for parents  for LDS parents.  Kids no longer participate.  I think that's how we say it in the title, but you can find Bridges on Facebook if you're interested in that. And I'm so glad that Tina is willing to come and be here with us. Welcome,

Thank you. I'm so glad to be here with you. 

Yeah. It's really good to have you. Why don't you just dive right in and tell us a little bit about yourself so that our listeners can get to know you a little

Yeah.  So my husband and I have been married for a long time. Kind of crazy that this year it will be 35 years and that's the number, I guess, that you hope you get there, but I never thought that I'd be saying that just like that much time has gone by.  We had four children.

 Pretty much we were typical get married when you're 21. Half of my friends were already married. I thought it was behind cause some of them already had kids.  Then I had my first child at 23 thinking I better catch up. I'm behind. And you'd look back at it now and you're like, I was just a kid having a baby.

What was I thinking? But we had four, by the time we  hit our thirties, we had four kids and  we just got really busy. Doing life, you know, when you're in your twenties and your thirties and you're doing your education and building your careers and having your family, raising your family and life just got super busy.

And then all of a sudden those kids were getting older and, it's in the middle of it. It seems like it took so long, but then they got older and it was like, where did all that time go? We were checking all the boxes that we were expected to check in life  as members of the church.

And we were both born and raised in the church. So you just have these expectations that your life is going to follow just what your parents did and the way that's outlined and the way you're taught. And if you do these things, then this is the way your life is going to go. And I guess we just naively had those expectations that if we do these things, this is the way our life is going to look. And never questioned any of that either. This is just what you do as a member of the church. Yeah,

I resonate with that idea that this is just what we do. And I just also did it, you know,  came along   I remember at a certain point as my kids started getting into high school, having that sense of running out of time. 

exactly.  And feeling the pressure of it too. 

Yeah.

There's a lot of pressure. Have I taught them enough? Have I prepared them for what they're going to face? And the question for me was always, no, it always came up. No, you have not done enough. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Me

Yeah.

For a

I think that's common.  We hit  2012 and, one of our kids turned 18.

Well, we started noticing some cracks in the story that we were following in 2012, but then in 2013, that child turned 18 and was graduating from high school and, took that, I'm an adult now and I don't have to listen to what you say pretty seriously.  And drove pretty hard into that. This child is a lot like me and they're very headstrong.

And I was headstrong pulling in the other direction, like, Oh no, this is not happening. Those next two years were really, really super tough. I was just so confused how, it seems like one day. You wanted this for your life and the next day you're doing these things.

And I don't even know who you are anymore. It was just really a lot of confusion, a lot of cognitive dissonance. Now that I know that word, I didn't know it then, but I see now that that's what was happening. And, I thought, it is my job to get this kid to see the light. This is not the way their life is supposed to go.

Their life is supposed to follow a different path and they're just confused. And so I need to remind them, I need to do whatever I can do to pull them back over here where they're supposed to be. 

I have to tell you, Tina, I think "this shouldn't be happening" is one of the most painful things I have ever thought. I can think of all number of contexts in which I have thought "this should not be happening" and it just created suffering for me.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I grew up in the era of the  eighties generation  where president Benson's to the mothers of Zion talk. I was a senior in high school when that came out

Yep.

and that was like, this is my gospel. I hate to follow this and it's my job and  if my kids do not follow the path, it is my fault.  And I remember after that, when I was a young mother, I had found this quote from Spencer W. Kimball that I had to go print it. I had to go search it out when I was prepping for this podcast because I'm like, I need to remember exactly what he said, but he said the testimony of the mother so goes the testimony of the child.  Even more pressure.  I have to build up myself and my testimony so strong or it's my fault if these kids go off the path. And so when you have a child that's pulling off of that story and off that path, it's just so scary. In hindsight, I don't think it's 2020, because I don't think we always know everything, but I think it gives a lot of perspective into those things  really shaped the way that I viewed my role  and the way that I viewed my kids  and what I was supposed to be doing.

And when things started to fall apart, I didn't know what to do. I didn't know how to handle that except for what I had always done and, well, put in more effort, try harder. And when you're trying to deal with somebody's agency, that is not always a good thing. Another person's agency. 

yeah, yeah, I just am having a flashback to one child's seventh grade experience where I found myself driving to the junior high to dig through the locker to find the assignment that I knew  had done and just to get it over the finish line and they were struggling. And I thought, well, they can't be struggling.  I know they did. I was way too wound up in that. And I started chanting to myself, "I have already successfully completed the seventh grade. I have already successfully completed seventh grade."

Yeah.

 It was really rough on our relationship and intrusive on a seventh grader. And when My kids  became adults it just got to be more and more like, "Oh, you need the title deed to your life. It's your life." 

Right.

It's hard though.

Well, I think that not only do we feel that internally,  we judge and we receive judgment from others. We do it to each other.  We look at other people and I know for sure, a hindsight, no, for sure that I had this mindset of  judging people whose kids went off the path. "Oh, they didn't do it right.

They didn't do all the things they were supposed to," or they just had bad kids. And then when it became me, that was really hard to deal with.  It opened up a big, giant, gaping hole that I had to look at myself and say, "Hey, You know, maybe I am judging unrighteously for sure. And when it gets turned on yourself, that's a hard thing to look at. 

I have a vivid memory of sitting in Relief Society and listening to this woman. I probably already had five kids, you know, I'm in the thick of it with four or five kids when this happened. And this older woman is talking about her kids and how their lives are their own and they get to make their own choices. She's had to realize that it's not her job to make sure their lives are a certain way. And I remember sitting there thinking,  "she's just trying to make herself feel better because she screwed up." Like literally these are the thoughts that I was having. And now I'm like, "Oh  dear, Candace, dear past me.

That is a really hard way to"

Yeah. 

Having that kind of judgment for other people and for ourselves, because I was also feeling like  I just needed to. Push towards the script that

Right.

always work

Right. Well, if I just check all these boxes and I do all these things, then I'm going to be safe. Right. I don't have to worry about those things that those people didn't put in all the effort that I did. That  was a pretty common  thought process for me.  But I remember even as this, we're seeing all the cracks and the big gaping holes start to everything's starting to crumble.

I remember sitting in these meetings and hearing these women say things like,  "well, if you want your kid to go on a mission, you just need to talk about missions. Like, just make sure you talk about admission" 

I did that,

I know,

totally did it. When I had a six year old son,  I could tell you exactly how you just talk about it like they're already going to go and that it's a for sure done deal and then they'll just go. Cause I thought that's how it worked and I had it all figured out

right. Cause you had a six year old, you knew how  it was going to happen.

Yeah.  Yeah, for

Yeah.

I was really

Yeah.

Yeah.

like defective children or like they didn't come as bad people. I never put any of this on them so I internalized all of it.  I would sit in these meetings and I would hear those kinds of things like, " just talk about going on a mission or, we just play the Book of Mormon tapes for our kids every night when they go to sleep. And so they love the Book of Mormon."  Okay. If it's that simple, that's pretty easy. And I would have done that. And I've done more than that actually. And I'm like, "I'm following the recipe that you're talking about and my cake is not turning out the way that I was told it was going to." eventually most of our kids did leave.

And over the next few years, and we have two queer LGBTQ kids, one of them married to a same sex partner.  So doing that span of years  was a lot of really difficult things. A lot of having to give up old stories, a lot of having to drop the judgments that I had for other people.

But at that, there was a lot of those years I was harshly judging myself feeling like a complete failure. It was so debilitating that even now,  I'm past that, but even now just remembering how that felt, it was so hard. 

Yeah. Very heavy. 

Sometimes I see people that are in the middle of that and I'm like, "Oh, my heart goes out to you." I just know how hard it is, what you're going through. I know you're going to get through it, but you're going to have some hard times. 

Yeah. Yeah.  it's so disorienting and  it's just messy to get through it. I don't think

Yeah.

you know, can take varying lengths of time, but it really destabilizes for me anyway,  destabilized my sense of how things We're  globally in the universe, you know

It, I think it destabilizes your sense of  what's real.  I don't know what to put my finger on anymore.  And I think even  in addition to that, I had my identity and my worth so wrapped up in my kids and in my husband , without them following  my plan and my story, I don't know who I was. 

I felt like I lost an identity and had zero worth at all.  Tough place to be. 

Yeah, there's a lot of messaging that you're not enough You're not doing enough if you would just do more  that is really  Painful to hear and process and you know, there are  moments when I  should have done something different or maybe even could have  if I thought about it that way, but I just think generally I was doing what I thought I should be doing, and working really hard for my kids.

And  it sounds like you were also. 

And like I said, I was a child raising children. So I  made a lot of mistakes and, I've wished this and I've heard so many other people say, if I could go back and do it all again and I would have to go back as, my 50 something year old self  to be able to raise them differently because I really didn't know differently then. 

I remember consciously saying to myself, you know what, there might come a day where I regret this thing that I'm doing right now, but  I'm doing what I think is best. And I need to remind myself that I'm doing what I think is best, even if it doesn't turn out the way I want it to, 

yeah.  Yeah. I think for a lot of my motherhood that was an external definition of what was best. What has switched for me now is that it's much more of an internal definition of trusting myself. I had these niggling things like "this doesn't seem like it's going how it's supposed to go," but I didn't have enough self confidence or self reflection really hone in and say, "actually, this is not how I want to parent." I was parenting, as you said, it's very busy when you have a house full of kids. And that's a luxury that I have now is to  think through that a little differently. So. How has that shifted for you? Did you experience a shift from an external reference of what is the right thing to do to more an internal compass?

yeah, for sure. When my kids were little, I was just doing the same thing that I'd seen my parents do and it seemed like it had worked for them. And so why wouldn't it work for me? And just not even thinking about whether what I was doing was really effective or honing in on what that child needed.

Maybe it was different than a different child and like paying attention to the little nuances in that way, or maybe like listening to what they were trying to tell me. I try to do that more now. I try to be very internally driven instead of letting everybody else tell me what to do and what I should be doing or not doing.

I really do try to look internally for that guidance. That internal guidance comes from the Lord. I think it comes from the spirit. 

I agree.  I find I'm getting better at listening. Are there things that helped you move from the former place to the current place? 

It was definitely a process. I started doing coaching. That was a big catalyst in helping me and teaching me  how to look at my thought process in a more mature way and to deal with my  emotions in a more mature way. That definitely Was a big piece of it.

 Tell us a little more about that. What do you mean a more mature way? What does that look like versus less?

my thought process 

Yeah.

even just to recognize that Not everything that happens inside my head is true, that I will Often tell myself stories that I am convinced are true, but are not; that I need to question those and maybe follow up and find out more information before I make assumptions,  but also to view myself and my worth. I think that helped me to find more internal worth. We're really good in the church about intellectually knowing that we are children of God  and I knew that. I sung that song since probably I  was able to speak.  I'm sure my mother taught me how to sing that song.

 But I don't think, at least for me, this was true. And I think I'm not the only one that I didn't have that knowledge moved into my heart and into my soul.  It was more,

not the only one.

it was more of an intellectual process  than it was a, "I feel this in my bones. I feel this in the deepest parts of me that I am worthy and I'm loved and I am cared for."

And so are my children. And so is everybody else that I come in contact with. I think if we had a better understanding of our own identity, that we would act very differently and  treat each other very differently, 

 I agree. We were talking before we started recording about my new granddaughter  and, I just find myself so curious. when my kids were born, I felt a lot of responsibility to make them into what they were supposed to be,  and when I hold my granddaughter, I just think,  "I'm so curious to get to know who you are." I don't think it's just that I'm the grandparent, and not the parent.  Some of it is a shift in how I would parent today, which is actually something I'd still try to do with my adult kids, I'm just so curious to get to know who you are now. And, when they're willing to share some of that with me, I feel so appreciative.

right,  right. And  creating a space for them to feel safe enough to open up, to share that with you. Cause sometimes that's hard, especially when you haven't had a great history with that kid and they haven't felt safe to open up to you and share those parts of them. I've been working a lot on that.

Just trying to be a safer place for whatever they want to share, whenever they want to share it. 

Yeah. So, how do you do that? 

Well,  that comes from dropping that judgment. This reminds me  there was a really pivotal thing that helped me to start  dropping that judgment for myself.  One of my mentors and trainers, she's a marriage and family therapist. 

We were recording some podcast episodes together  and she had already met my husband  and so she knew him, but before we were  recording one day, she said, "Hey, I don't really know much about the rest of your family. Tell me about the rest of your family." And I was like, "Oh, wow. Okay." And she's also a member of the church.

And so, I, one by one just gave her kind of a brief introduction to each one of my kids. I have two son in laws soon to be three. So  gave her a little brief introduction to everybody and she just listened. And she said something that then just like blew my socks off. She said, "you and your husband must be such great parents."

She goes, "I sit in church and I see these cookie cutter families and I wonder do you have the ability to make your own choices and still be accepted in your family?"  She goes, "but you're telling me that all of your kids are so incredibly different and individual and you're all connected and love each other and are like a cohesive family." 

She said "that takes a great set of parents." 

Yeah, 

I had done so much work to try to let go of the judgment of myself, but that was  the final piece that just let me release and let it go.  I had never thought about that before.

yeah, it takes an increased capacity to love to let people just operate in their agency and still feel connected when they're not doing what you expect. 

 One of the things she's trained us quite a bit on is how enmeshed families can be.  And how  it often will be, "this is what our family does. This is what our family looks like. This is what we expect." And there's, it's almost unsaid, sometimes I guess it could be said, like, "Oh no, if you're not following the family plan." 

Then you're not as important as the people that are  and you're not as accepted as those that are you're not as Celebrated as the people that are 

Yeah, that was hard. That happens really innocently sometimes. I'm just thinking about, at a family reunion where there was an activity to write letters to the missionaries,  the people who weren't there because they were serving

uh huh. 

But there was no mention of people who weren't there for other reasons  an effort to reach out to them.

 I don't think it's meant to be unkind. I think it's just thoughtlessness,

I Agree,

not really thinking through, "Oh, what we're saying is we care about the people who aren't here because they're on missions and they're okay with us and deserve our attention. And the people who aren't here for other reasons.  Don't

right, 

and nobody would ever say that out loud and that's not what they mean or actually think  Largely, but  it's hard, you know,

but we each interpret things in our own way according to our own thought processes and past experiences and so when you are One of those people that's not there because of a different reason, or you have a family member that's not there because of a different reason. You hear that differently, 

yeah, it lands

totally lands differently.

Yeah, 

 I think that's the skill  I started developing as I was  to divorce I'm about to be different in my church and suddenly Things sound differently and and I start wondering. In the intensity of it, I was probably very self centered, but at some point, I started wondering about other people.  "I wonder how that sounds to them based on what I know about their life experience." And maybe we could have some sensitivity around that.

 I've gone through that same process with my son after he told us that he was gay. I heard everything differently from day one and it was like, "oh, yeah.  I never heard things that way before and he's been sitting for years." He was 20 at the time. He'd been through the whole young men's program and even beyond that and for me to start hearing things the way that he had been hearing them was  really difficult and just broke my heart that he had been through that  and internalize those things.

It also helped us to make sense of some of the things that had happened and things that he had said or ways he had reacted to certain things. It started to make more sense at that time. 

Another thing I realized as I  went through that process is that it wasn't that people were  intentionally being overly sensitive or trying to be offended. It's just that their life experience was so different than mine or  their situation was such that certain messages felt painful.

And  the same circumstance, I would have also felt the same way. That these people are so different from me. You know, they're just human beings having  different experience than I am. And it's not because they're doing it wrong or they should feel differently than they do. It totally makes sense. People are having the experience they're having and having the thoughts and feelings they have about some of these things. 

That's right. It's hard  to make a comment in church and try to cover all those bases, you know, try to cover all the ways that somebody might take that or interpret it differently.  I think it's good to be aware of it.  And to try to cover those spaces, I don't know  if it's possible.

I think we can certainly do a better job than we do now.  I'm sure  there are some words that are probably really good at that. I've never been in one of them, but I've heard that they exist somewhere. 

There are some people in my ward who are just super aware of who's in the

Mm hmm. Oh, yeah,

they're  willing to step up and temper things  and try to  that into account.  I appreciate that sometimes I find it overwhelming. My worldview has shifted so much that I don't even know how to give people the whole backdrop premise of what I would want to say. And there are other times when I'm like, " I'm just going to drop a little nugget idea of possibility.  Maybe somebody will pick it up. Maybe they won't, but  that's fine." just saying that made me think  I listened to one of your December episodes from your podcast and you offered this question.  " What if there were a possibility that I could do something differently?"  that's brilliant. That is what helped me begin to shift to finding more access to God's love and more peace in my life just being open to the possibility that it could be different than I thought it was supposed to be.  So thank you for sharing that question.

welcome. It's a pretty good question. I don't remember saying that, but  it's a pretty good question to think about, especially when we think that  things are supposed to be a certain way, or  I'm just this way and I can't help it. Like, what if the possibility is that something could be different  if I could be different. 

Yeah. And what would that look like?

Yeah.  And just to explore that is  a worthwhile use of our brain power  and time and energy 

Absolutely. Absolutely.  So do you.  experiences that helped move you in that direction.  You've talked a little bit about learning about coaching  and developing greater understanding of your thoughts and feelings and relationships. What else has helped

specific.

Think about the possibility things could

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah,

well, those were big ones. I remember there was a point where I was trying to control so much  that it wasn't just affecting  the relationship with one child. It was affecting the entire family  and it got to the point of either I'm going to lose a relationship with all my kids. 

They're going to just choose to  go away and  be around me as little as possible or I'm going to have to change. I wasn't willing to give up that relationship with them because they're just too important to me  so I had to look inward and do that inward work. That's really the only place that we have the ability  to really do work anyway is the inward work. I can't put my finger on certain instances, other than I'm just going to keep showing up and trying to be a better person and trying to listen better, trying to, not make them responsible for how I feel, I'm responsible for that, not them,  , asking questions of them, being willing to hear things that I didn't really want to hear. 

Being,

a tough

yeah,  being willing to see things that I really didn't want to see. 

So  curious what practices helped you in those moments where one of your kids is sharing with you something that's hard to hear that you don't really want to see about yourself.  ,  Thoughts do you have to share about  managing yourself and navigating that experience?

can't think of one particular night that that was coming up big time with one of my kids  and they were living with us at the time.  And I was hearing something I really didn't want to hear. And I did not trust myself actually to open my mouth and say anything.  It's about eight o'clock at night, and so I just said, "you know what? I need to go to my room for a little bit." And I didn't come out for the rest of the night.  I stayed in my room because I did not want to come out and say something  that I was going to regret later. And so I stayed in my room.  And journaled and meditated.  Meditation, mindfulness, journaling,  just writing things down for me is pretty big. And being able to work through that before I go back into that conversation.  That was a few years ago. And. 

So giving yourself a little bit of

Oh, yeah, space.  And you're reminding me of like this quote from Viktor Frankl that I use all the time. Do you know the one that I'm, that I'm thinking of?

Yeah.

Um,

Yes,  stimulus and

there's a space.

is a space.

And in that space is your freedom to choose. That's where our agency lies. We have to give ourselves that space. So I needed a really big space that night. 

Sometimes we just need to take a breath and pause, but that night I needed hours and hours of space.  So that was really helpful. And there's been other times when I haven't been  confronted with  a person right in front of me, but I had more time, maybe several days to work through something before I had to go back into the conversation. It's just helpful to not ever respond, react  when you're not in a good emotional or head space. It's become one of my rules and I don't always follow my rules because I'm human and I make mistakes, but the more I have that rule, the better I get at it and even in that same situation where I had to go to my room at eight o'clock at night. 

Given that that was several years ago, I probably would only need a shorter time period now. I probably wouldn't have it to take all night to process that situation.  The longer you keep going towards the difficult thing,  dealing with yourself, all the stuff that's going on internally, and then going back into the relationship,  Towards it when you everything in you is screaming, "no, go away. You can't handle this. This is too hard. You don't want to do this," but you're like, "no, I'm going to go towards it."  That's where the growth is, 

So, what you're saying is that what you were doing in your room that night was not running away from the difficulty.  But  yourself time to address it with yourself

exactly,

and  process through it so you weren't shutting down and running away. You were just moving through it so that when you had your next interaction with your child, you could behave in a way that you could respect.

exactly,  exactly. Yep. That was it. 

Yeah,  that's a lot. That's some good work,

Thank you.

Good job. 

That's nice. Every once in a while you need to hear that from somebody, cause it's hard work.  Relationships, especially family relationships are the hardest ones.  I think there's such a wise  plan in place for us to be in families because As you deal with those relationships, those are what  push you  into growth.

You can run away from them. You can  fight about it. You can,  take all your emotions out on somebody else, but that doesn't cause the growth. That just keeps you stuck where you are.  But dealing with yourself internally and then going back into the relationship, that's, that's where the growth is.

It's hard. 

Yeah. It's a lot of good work there.  Well, is there anything else that you'd like to share with us today, Tina? 

I've shared a lot  of  what helped me. I can't emphasize enough  how much  taking that pause  has helped me and how having a practice of meditation and mindfulness has helped me to take that pause.  That's been a big key.   I didn't really feel able to do that until I started  really intentionally practicing mindfulness and meditation on a regular basis. 

Yeah, I think it is a practice. It is a skill. It's not something that you can just decide you're going to do today

No, 

all of a sudden you're going to be able to do it every time.  We just always have the next opportunity.  It's never too late. 

right.

show up as the person you want to be in a relationship

exactly. 

Yeah 

I used to be so afraid  of what it meant for my kids to not come to church anymore 

Hmm.

participate in church.  I had so much fear in my own brain about  the implications in this life and in the next and   that was paralyzing. The work that I've been doing and that I continue to do  is to just let go of that fear. 

 It keeps me from truly seeing who they are and loving them. They're amazing people. Yeah. Each and every one of them are amazing people. They're doing amazing things in the world and they're so good in their hearts, and I see their good hearts and it doesn't matter to me anymore that they don't come to church. 

I know that  as much as I love them, they're so much more loved by their heavenly parents.  And that if  I'm not going to go away from them, heavenly parents are not going to go away from them either. 

Yeah.  Well, you're leading right up to my last question that I have for

Oh, okay.

is  which is this ,  has Your children not coming to church brought you closer to jesus 

 I look at Jesus's life different now because I look at that.  I used to look at it as, "well, I need to follow these rules. I need to be obedient to these things that he taught."   but now  I was looking at, in fact, I just taught a release society lesson a few weeks ago that I had to look at this deeper  and I was like, "Yeah.

He was fully divine, but also fully human."  So he experienced  some of his maybe brain telling him things that were not true. How did he deal with that? He experienced these emotions. He was an emotional being as well. How did he deal with those? And he didn't run away from those things.  He knew how to deal with them. He knew his identity so deeply that those  things that would happen to him those circumstances that he was faced with in his life they didn't rock him. They didn't break him.  And he didn't run away from them.

Sometimes I've stood at the ocean and a few feet of water and tried to hold back the tide,  but it felt like I was trying to do, but I don't think Jesus did that, you know, what did he do? I think he actually was more like surfing the waves and going with the wave, the tide as it was coming in and he let himself have the experience.

He let himself be in the moment  and not be caught up in the. "What does this mean? What does this mean about me?" All of the fear based thoughts that we have.  He just saw people for who they were in this whole lens of love  and knew that their earthly image that they were portraying  was not the real them and let himself have this experience with them, seeing them in their true divinity as he knew his own.

 As I think about my relationship with Jesus, I'm like, "that's who I want to be."  I am not just about checking boxes anymore. I want to be like the person who surfs the waves, not the one that's trying to hold the tide back. That's impossible to do anyway, but how do I move more fully into my own earthly experience? 

Because I don't think he's just saying,  "you know, you just hold on and I'm going to do everything for you." I think he's like, "no, you're supposed to follow me. You're supposed to follow my example and do what I do." And to me, that's following his example. 

I love that imagery.  It's just beautiful, the flexibility, flow of it.  I  can imagine riding waves   with the strength of love, that

Yeah. 

carries us through.  Well, thank you so much for being here today, Tina. I really

Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. 

Remember there are no empty chairs. 

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