If you are a restaurant owner looking for a fresh perspective on how to grow sales, ideas on how you can re-concept your restaurant, a better way to lead your staff meetings, or looking for a training tool for your team, you are in the right place. Today, I'm speaking with the owners of Hazel's Restaurant in Birmingham, michigan, Beth Hussey and Emmele Hrold. Beth believes the key to a successful establishment lies in creating a strong foundation and lasting company culture. The Bloomfield Hills resident has worked in the restaurant industry since she was 16 years old and at 23, beth joined her family's business Mesquite Creek Seafood and Steakhouse in Clarkston, michigan, where she worked her way from dishwashing to working the front of the house and became the opening general manager of Mesquite Creek Seafood and Steak in Detroit's former Pontchartrain Hotel. In addition to being a restaurant owner multiple times over, beth has established a career in technology. In 2020, beth founded Shifty, a mobile training software application inspired by her extensive restaurant industry experience. Not only does the staff at Hazel's use the software to streamline their work streamline their work experience but Beth is also working to grow Shifty as a platform that is widely available throughout the service industry.
Christin Marvin:Emmele grew up with a passion for cooking. She attended Central Michigan University studying art, before transferring to Detroit's Wayne State University, where she earned a bachelor's degree in liberal arts University, where she earned a bachelor's degree in liberal arts. Emmele owned a restaurant in Colorado before she chose to return to Michigan and has worked in noted establishments across the Detroit food scene. She was the opening and executive chef at One-Eyed Betty's and later Pops for Italian in Ferndale, where she first worked alongside friend and colleague Beth Hussey. During that time, Emmele also competed in and won the 2013 Detroit Burger Brawl, where she earned a solid reputation for crafting the best burger. She and her culinary team also competed in the Las Vegas World Food Championships in the Burger Division, finishing fourth out of 50 competitors. By 2016, Emmele had expanded her role to include Pops for Italian and earned an invitation to compete on the Food Network's Guide Grocery Games. She finished the final round in second place. In this episode, we will cover such topics as an example of how a themed restaurant takeover successfully increased sales and led to a re-concept of a restaurant who was experiencing a massive sales decline. How Beth and Emmele transitioned from being a hands-on owner to a developer of managers who met their expectations, which has opened doors for them to build other passion projects in just five years' time and how they've been successful by asking managers to work just 40 hours a week.
Christin Marvin:Welcome to the No Hesitations podcast, the show where restaurant leaders learn tools, tactics and habits from the world's greatest operators. I'm your host, Christin Marvin, with Solutions by Christin. I've spent the last two decades in the restaurant industry and now partner with restaurant owners to develop their leaders and scale their businesses without wasting time and energy, so they can achieve work-life balance and make more money. You can now engage with me on the show and share topics you'd like to hear about, leadership, lessons you want to learn and any feedback that you have. Simply click the link at the top of the show notes and I'll give you a shout out on a future episode. Thanks so much for listening and I look forward to connecting hi, Beth and Emmele. Welcome to the show. Thanks so much for being here.
Christin Marvin:Hi Hi, thanks for having us, absolutely. So let's go back five years when Hazel's first started, right, so you, if I'm not wrong, you opened it as a neighborhood joint, right you had the name was different. You were kind of, you know, paying homage to a few different neighborhoods, and I know you're smiling and laughing here.
Christin Marvin:So we're going to take you way back and you have this concept right to have this neighborhood joint where you had something for everyone on the menu, and I was, you know, so curious about the different menus that you offered. And I heard you had 126 different types of oysters on the menu, in addition to some comfort items and obviously the burger that you're, you know, so famously known for. So talk a little bit about hazels in the beginning. How, how did all of that work? What worked and what didn't work?
Beth Hussey:Okay, okay, so would we. Yeah, I'll take it.
Emmele Herrold:Like.
Beth Hussey:Beth said she likes when I talk. So Beth and I have been working together for over a decade for a different company. This is our first quarry and owning something together outright. And you know, opening a restaurant is a lot of work, it takes a lot of time and a lot of thought. Um, particularly the name, can you know you have to get creative and know you try to represent who you want to be with the name.
Beth Hussey:Um, and what we really wanted to focus on in this neighborhood was that we were a neighborhood restaurant. Um, we're in a affluent area that has a lot of high-end restaurants that might not be open for lunch and they're sort of not necessarily appealing to a family but more, you know, date night kind of places. So neighborhood was our idea, and you know now your iPhone tells you where you take pictures and geotags and names albums that way. So we were in this building the building that we ended up renting and took a bunch of pictures and it named the album Hazel, ravines and Downtown, which turns out are the three neighborhoods that converge at the corner where we are, and we thought how perfect that that represents exactly who we want to be.
Emmele Herrold:Apple named us basically yeah, that's what it boils down to be. Apple named us basically yeah, what it boils down to You're welcome Apple.
Christin Marvin:Yeah Well, thanks a lot.
Beth Hussey:So we liked that, that we were able to tell that story with the name. We did know we're not dumb people, so we did know it was long. We did not know that people had a hard time with the word ravine. A lot of people said raven and so right from the beginning it became a challenge for us the way other people read it. We tried shortening it. Our whole plan was to be either called HRD or Hazel's. It did take off that way, but we still had this very long name. That we found more challenging than we originally thought. But it also helped us develop the concept in that we had three different names, three different neighborhoods, and so we developed this menu that also crossed three different kind of sections. We called them familiar, well-traveled and trendy. So I, as the chef, got to really explore lots of different types of cuisine, had a lot of fun with it. The menu to me still is one of my favorite menus.
Emmele Herrold:It was really we were. I always say we were, we were kind of ahead of our time. I think Detroit wasn't ready for this. I always say we were kind of ahead of our time. I think Detroit wasn't ready for this, because it was really cool. Each sort of menu had its very own concept. Where it was, you know, there was one whole menu of familiar food. So there were appetizers, salads, sandwiches and entrees that were very familiar, like you know, french onion soup and chicken wings and a Caesar salad and all those things that you see on every menu in America. And then there was a whole concept of well-traveled we called it so food from other parts of the world. So we had a section of appetizers, sandwiches, salads, entrees that were very worldly, really cool food. And then we had a third section that was trending. So I mean, how fun for a chef to be able to create a menu that has like familiar, you know very worldly type food that's being made all over the world. And then what's trending right now?
Emmele Herrold:we had a blast with it, like one of the things that was trending at the time this was six years ago was bone marrow. I remember that bone marrow soup. So our soup bone broth, so we had chicken noodle soup on the familiar. We had a bisque, a seafood bisque on the worldly and then a bone broth for the trending, and so that kind of gives you an idea of how the food played out. It was really, really cool. People that got it loved it, but other people came in and they're scratching their heads like I'm confused.
Beth Hussey:Yeah, they took it a little too far. They thought we were three different restaurants inside the same building and it just became this thing that we didn't mean for it to become we wanted it to be just three parts of a menu, but people were like which one's Hazel's? It became a lot. It was very hard to talk about it in public because people kept saying the name wrong, and every time.
Christin Marvin:Yeah, it's so interesting, beth. I worked for a restaurant that also the first name of the restaurant was Osteria and nobody knows how to say Osteria, and so we spent a year and a half so much time and energy and I was the GM at the time we would correct people, we made t-shirts with phonetic funny phrases to help, you know the staff would wear. I mean, we spent. It was such bullshit, right, like we spent all this time and energy wasted on trying to teach people how to pronounce something and at the end of it, yes. Now I look back and it's like who the fuck cares they were coming in, that's all that mattered, right?
Christin Marvin:I don't care what, but it used to get under all of the staff skins it's like, oh, but you do great, bring up a good point, right, like there's something to the simplicity in the name and the clarity and people knowing oh okay, I know, Hazel's is it? I'm gonna go to hazel's and and I read, or I've heard, beth, that you changed the menu, some of the menu, in the first 90 days. What? What was working, what did and what wasn't working? What did you change? So?
Beth Hussey:um, I think the first night. No, we kept the same menu for the first six months. We kept the same but change. You know a few things here and there.
Emmele Herrold:I mean constantly With the trending part we would. You know we had to like. That was funny because we're like what have we done to ourselves? Because the whole trending section on the menu we had to like. Last thing we could do is like have last month's trend right. So we had to keep adding to the trending part. It was really cool. That concept got to play out on the drinks too, like wine and cocktails and beer. So it was really cool.
Emmele Herrold:But I think the part you're referring to is and I'll tell this part of the story and then Emily tells the second part way better than me but so we had a great reputation before we opened this restaurant. We had some very successful operations that we were, that we sort of created in another community and had a great reputation. Both these places opened and were wildly successful, very busy. So we're very excited to come to Birmingham and Beth and Emily, we're going to open a great restaurant in Birmingham. And so we opened and it was great. You know, we opened in the holidays and it was busy and people that knew us from the other community came to see us and people that understood the tricky menu concept loved it. Other people were confused. So things are going good, not great, so we weren't experiencing the kind of like success that we had had together in this other community. So we're okay, you know we're struggling, we're fighting, you know it's our own skin in the game. Now, right, and we we're kind of going through, we're getting further and further behind in debt. We get through the holidays and now we're into January, february in Michigan, which is a you know dismal time in this part of the country, and so it was like we're kind of chugging along, getting further and further into debt all the time and it was really challenging, and so it was going like I said, the best way to describe it is good, not great. So we were just barely keeping our heads above water.
Emmele Herrold:And then and we're about to sink really is what it felt like on any given minute and then all of a sudden, one day around spring, our sales took a nosedive and it, like our sales dropped like almost 40%, like overnight. We're like what the what have we done? Like this was, it was, it was terrifying. Like our sales went down substantially and we're like what the heck? And then the next week they were still down and we're like what did we? What did we do. Did we screw something up? You know what happened and so we're talking to, you know, other restaurants in the community. We live our restaurants in a in a city called Birmingham. It's like Emily said, it's a very affluent community, it's where all the rich people live, basically, and so the restaurants were. We talked to other restaurateurs and they're like oh yeah, no, don't worry, this is just spring break in Birmingham. It's your sales went down because of spring break and we're like what the what the fuck Like, how can like spring break?
Emmele Herrold:Because the community we were in before this was Ferndale, which is, you know, hipster, you know big young, you know big, you know gay population, hipster, young people, artists, and like spring break was not a thing there. They, you know people, weren't, weren't going on trips and things like that. So in spring break in Birmingham was sadly not just one week, because you've got the Catholic schools, the private schools, the, you know, the public schools, so it's like spring break, which you think of it as being a week, was really more like a month or more. So our sales went way down and we kind of got through that and our sales went back up to the very average place that they were before and we were like, holy shit, what are we going to? You know, we're staring down the barrel of a summertime coming up and if spring break can have that kind of an impact on our business when summer hits, we're in real trouble.
Emmele Herrold:Because we're in Michigan, which is, you know, this land of the lakes. We're not on a lake, we don't have a patio and we live, you know, in Birmingham. So in Michigan people go up north in the summertime. So in the summertime, if you don't have, if you're not on a lake, you don't have a patio, you're going to struggle a little bit. And so we're like we're in big trouble. So we kind of put our heads together. We're like, well, we could just, you know, sit around being sad about you know why we're so slow in the summertime, or we really should. We have to do something Because, honestly, you know, at that time it's funny because you know Emily is the chef and I'm the one that kind of is running the business, end of things. So I'm like looking at the books and like knowing that if we go, through a rough summer.
Beth Hussey:We're not going to be rough.
Emmele Herrold:We're not going to make it through. Honestly, I don't think we would have made it if we didn't do what we're about to do. So we had a really cool oyster program At the time. We were ordering oysters from small oyster farms on both coasts. We were ordering direct. They were overnighting them to us. So Emily would call the oyster farmers what did you harvest last? You know, send me that. We had a really cool oyster program. So we're in Michigan.
Emmele Herrold:People love lobster in Michigan. I'm like we should do. We're trying to think of ways we can bring people from outside of Birmingham to the city. We knew that would be the only way we could get some business. So we're thinking should we do a special? Let's do a lobster dinner. People in Michigan love lobster. It's hard to do. The only place you can get lobster in Michigan is at really, really fancy restaurants because it's very expensive and it's, you know, it's very expensive in Michigan because we're not on the coast. So I'm like we kind of had the idea if we could order oysters from small oyster farms on the coast why, you know, maybe we could get lobster, like we were cutting out the middleman so we're able to kind of control the cost. So we we started with our oyster people. We asked if they, if they knew a way we could get lobsters overnighted to us. And they thought we were crazy.
Emmele Herrold:They said no you're, you might, yeah, we might be crazy. They're like you're not going to find anyone that will overnight you lobsters. So, anyway, we got out the proverbial phone book, basically, and started looking for small fishing outfits on the coast of Maine and we found this little, you know lobster trapping well, samson was his name where there's an actual fisherman that was out there trapping lobsters for us and overnighting them to us. So we were able to get them for like the same price that a restaurant actually on the coast would pay, maybe a little bit more, but because you know, we were planning on doing volume, you know the whole thing. So you know we're thinking let's do a lobster special. And then Emily came up with a brilliant idea. One night she called me. She's like, but I've got the best idea and I'm like, let's hear it. And she said let's just do a takeover. Um, like, let's scrap our whole menu. This, you know, familiar, world, well-traveled and trending, complicated menu. And let's like, do like, a lobster shack menu, like, like.
Beth Hussey:and we the thought was, if we're going to do it, let's do it big, like let's no bigger, just offer lobster, let's off, offer what you would get at a lobster shack in Maine. So we because that's how we like to do things, okay, we're doing it, let's do it got our graphic designer and like looked at every Main menu we could find and like I was like, okay, they, you know, eat, eat whole belly clams. I'm going to learn how to make whole belly clams. We're going to do it, just like you would see if you were driving up the coast of Maine.
Emmele Herrold:So it was, we were like you know, we didn't know what we were doing.
Emmele Herrold:We also we had this other menu. You know. We were like what? If you know what? If we alienate alienate the few customers we do have, you know, by scrapping the menu. We talked to we have a publicist, as you know, and we talked to her and said what do you think of this idea? And she's like well, it is newsworthy. You know, I'm sure the media would pick it up. If you're like, we're a big 10,000 square foot restaurant in the middle of a very nice city, so trying to transform our place into a lobster shack was really interesting.
Beth Hussey:Yeah, it doesn't look like a lobster shack.
Christin Marvin:I was going to ask you that. I mean A. I love that you. I'm just so curious about how you made the decision to reconcept and did what you did. But it sounds like you found what was working in your business, you leaned into it. You found what was working in your business, you leaned into it. I applaud you for going with a really expensive food even though your sales were struggling. Right, you saw that there was something different and exciting and a different level of experience that you could offer. No-transcript. Hi podcast friends, we're taking a quick break to address a common challenge in the restaurant industry leadership development. If you're a restaurant owner or manager navigating the complexities of leading a restaurant team, you know it's no easy feat. To help you lead with clarity, I've put together a customized guide with five strategies for becoming a more effective restaurant leader. Visit christinmarvincom. com/ clear to grab your copy and start making positive change today. Now back to the show. Thanks so much for listening.
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Emmele Herrold:Well, and I mean so the way the story goes is, you know, stephanie's like yeah, let's do it. So we dove in, we threw this idea together, we gave it a name, we called it Lobster Pound. Lobster Pound is like an actual lobster shack on the coast of Maine and we went all out and the local newspaper picked up the story, ran it online and in this you know, the Thursday entertainment section, and the minute the story went live, like hit the press or whatever, our phones started ringing and it never stopped. Literally we're like, oh my gosh, this is crazy. And we I mean we had people waiting at our door at 11 o'clock on the first day that this menu was going live. We planned it for four weeks. We're a big 10,000 square foot restaurant. Like I said, we've got 280 seats or something, and we filled every seat all day for four weeks straight and we quadrupled our sales and it was like the most. What's that?
Christin Marvin:What was the attraction?
Emmele Herrold:for people.
Christin Marvin:Why so much excitement?
Beth Hussey:I think, like Beth was saying, that people are used to seafood being fancy, and we did the opposite. You can get really good quality seafood, very fresh things that you don't see. We went all out. We had plastic tablecloths. We served things with bibs. It was approachable. All out, we had plastic tablecloths. We served things you know, with bibs. It was approachable and something they don't see.
Beth Hussey:Thing like. We went all out paper towel on the on the tables and all that and it's, it's not something people can get. Lobster rolls, I mean just flying off the shelves, it's, it's, it's. Honestly, at this point, years in, I'm like I can't believe. I can't believe people like lobster so much. I'm glad they do. Wow, but we call it Hazel's Lobster Pound. So that's kind of where the concept of you know, just calling it Hazel's started. It was supposed to be four feet.
Christin Marvin:Sorry, go ahead, did you guys? I mean, 10,000 square feet of space is a lot. Did you do anything to change the decor in, you know, in addition to kind of changing the table setup, or did you just say we're going to leave it as is? Give this a shot, see what happens.
Beth Hussey:Yeah, first we just left it the way it was because we were in no position to do any form of redecorating financially or, you know, with any timeframe we didn't have any time. It was literally, you, literally, you know, tomorrow we're turning it into this thing, but anything we can buy on amazon, you know yeah, and let it, let it be like a you know lesson for anyone listening.
Emmele Herrold:I mean, like we. So we put, you know, red and white checkerboard vinyl tablecloths on the table, um, which was not an expensive thing, but it had an enormous impact. I mean an enormous. And even, like on the street, like you could see the table. You could see these tablecloths now from the windows on the street, where before you didn't even know there was a restaurant here. So little things like that, little changes like that, had, like, had an enormous impact. It was like, you know, in their minds, we transformed the restaurant and it was so cool, the buzz was so cool, there was so much engagement on the internet about it and, like I said that, you know, there was a line out the door all day. Every day, our reservations were booked, quadrupled. Our sales, restaurateurs and people were coming in and looking around, scratching their heads, going, how the hell did you do this? Because, like most promotions are, like you know, half off pizza or kids eat free. You got a discount. Like to bring the people in, we raised our prices substantially and people were coming in and spending the big bucks for, you know, an expensive lobster roll, an expensive lobster, but doing it in a casual way. So it was so cool.
Emmele Herrold:We planned it for four weeks. At the end of the fourth week, you know we were still turning people away because you know we were so busy even on you know we were still turning people away because you know we were so busy even at, you know, sunday, monday, tuesday Um, we decided I was so worried about it, but we decided to extend it for another four weeks and I thought for sure it would go down, but it didn't. So for eight weeks straight the sales were, like you know, way up. Um, we totally got out of debt. We paid every ounce of money that we owed anybody got totally out of debt and it was amazing.
Emmele Herrold:But when the lobster pound was over, it was like you know, party's over. We went back to our old menu and our employees, our customers, our vendors, everyone was like you girls have to do more takeovers. That was so much fun. Do more, do more, do more. And Emily and I were like hell, no, because if we can look forward to like that happening every summer, then that's going to save our butts, like we're going to make people miss it. Can't wait till summer, till they do the lobster thing again and we're going to just leave it at that. And so, you know, we ended the lobster pound.
Emmele Herrold:It was like fall, right, so we go through fall, we go through the holidays. Our sales went way back down to that very average or below average spot. And you know, people are constantly begging us do takeovers, do takeovers, do takeovers. And finally we're like, okay, fine. Well, we were afraid we were going to screw everything up if we tried another takeover, but we decided let's do another takeover.
Emmele Herrold:We developed an idea Michigan loves Florida, right, everybody in Michigan loves Florida. And you know, the reason we did lobster in the summertime is because lobster was in season. So we decided what crustacean is in season in the winter? And it's stone crab, which comes from Florida. So we developed this really cool Florida-themed takeover. We called it the Crab Trap.
Emmele Herrold:Emily got to develop all these fun. She actually went to Florida and did a bunch of R&D, got to develop some really fun like Florida themed menus. It was like it was as though you were walking into like a beach on spring break when you came to Hazel's, like we you know frozen drinks and plastic cups and gumbo and alligator and grouper and all kinds of cool stuff. And we did the same thing. Publicist did a press release. The newspaper picked it up and sales went right back up again to that same spot. They were with the lobster pound and stayed that way. You know, for this time. We planned it for eight weeks and it was awesome. So by the end of that takeover we were like I guess this is who we're supposed to be.
Beth Hussey:Yeah, so by the end of that we had, we had decided in those eight weeks that we were ready to do it, always basically live it. We called it a constant state of takeover because at that point we weren't really ready to reconceptualize financially the name and all everything that goes with that. But we started doing research to do four different menus, got on a plane and went to Baltimore and drove down the coast for eight days, came home to COVID so we were ready. But then we got shut down. So we did have a lovely little break and were able to conceptualize, you know, what we wanted to do with these takeovers in that break and came out of it ready for lobster.
Beth Hussey:And then the next year is when we started doing four a year and in that, with COVID and with some lovely help from the government that we took advantage of, we were in the position, to you know, to spend the time and the money on a full reconcept because what we did really was listen to what people wanted and wanted hazel's. They wanted, you know we called it hazel's lobster, brown hazel's crap like hazel's had become the name with these takeovers. It was so much easier. It still feels like a neighborhood name. It is still a neighborhood that we're in, um, but it rolls off the tongue much better than the old one.
Christin Marvin:Good for you. I just am so inspired that you, you know, took something small like a promo and experimented with it and then just leaned into it even more. I love the connection between Michigan and Florida. We have a very similar thing happening here in Arizona, where we have the snowbirds that come from. A lot of people come from Chicago and come down here. So for any Tucson restaurants that are listening to this, I hope you can take some good nuggets of wisdom away from this. This is just awesome stuff. So, talked about the menu, talked about the concept, you two came into this restaurant, ownership and partnership together saying we're going to have a very specific approach to how we treat our employees because you have not seen some good behavior over the years. What's your approach?
Beth Hussey:Well, we both have been in the business a long time, in every aspect of it. I think you know there are restaurateurs out there that are great restaurateurs, that may not have, you know, gone through the ranks we did we still are, it feels like but a lot of bosses, one in particular that we worked with together for quite a long time and it just felt abusive. And I think that the culture around a lot of restaurants is a little abusive. You know there's a lot of alcohol abuse. You know it always feels like people are overworked, underpaid, constantly saying no to everything else. Work, work, work, work, work.
Emmele Herrold:That's how I felt certainly, Well, there's that absolute stigma of like, if you work in a restaurant, especially in management, you're working long hours, nights, weekends, holidays, 60 hours a week. You know so many restaurant owners or you know organizations you know, expect a minimum of a 50 hour work week, if not 60 and in some cases many more. I mean talk to talk to chefs. Chefs will tell you they work 60, 70, some work 80 hours a week. Like it's insane. And why is that? Like the rest of the world works 40 hour work weeks, why does the restaurant and it just nobody seems to question it.
Beth Hussey:It just is what it is. Oh, you're a chef, you must work crazy. I mean, you know, now I'm jumping ahead. But now people are like, wait, you have time to coach a swim team? I'm like, yes, because I know that years ago I was the person that couldn't do anything and didn't have time for anything. But I'm not that person anymore. I want to have a life outside of this building and I want that for everyone who works in this building. We want that Not just because we're owners and have developed something that is allowing us to step away a little bit, but anyone who works for us. We want to be able to have a work-life balance. That isn't this, you know, weird stigma of overworked.
Emmele Herrold:And, as it turns out, the customers want that for us too. Yes, they do. Which is it's such a, it's such a cool thing. So, yeah, when Emily and I, when we decided, you know, finally, we, you know, we never knew we could like open our own restaurant, we thought we'd have to have some big money man behind the project or something. We just never, it never dawned on us that we could do it ourselves. Just ask somebody, yeah, and we, you know, we did. And it turns out we had a great reputation and a really great track record and the bank couldn't wait to give us a loan. So, you know, we had to put some money in and all that stuff. But it, you know, all of a sudden, here we are. So we like had it, we sat down and we're like, you know, we believe we can do it differently, like if we're, you know, this is finally our chance, it's our own restaurant, we're not under someone's thumb and we can call the shots.
Emmele Herrold:And we basically decided we are not going to, we're going to expect 40-hour work weeks out of our managers. You know, we say 40 to 45. We're big proponents of like, our managers have a job to do, right. So, in addition to making sure every single guest has the most amazing experience, which is not necessarily an easy task. At all times, you know they have responsibilities and we've. We're big proponents of work smarter, not harder. So, you know, I have found and I I've always said this like, if you look at those restaurants that are forcing their managers to work 50 and 60 hours, if you really look at those 50 hours that they're working, the majority of those hours are not productive hours, they're actually not doing anything and so they're basically getting paid to be in the building.
Beth Hussey:like hating it.
Emmele Herrold:So we're like you know you've got a job to do. Yes, we have to have coverage. There's got to be a manager on the floor at all times. We got to be taking really good care of the employees and really good care of the guests. But beyond that, you've got a list of responsibilities. Get your work done and go home. You know, work smarter, not harder, and set up a program where any hours they work beyond 45 hours they and we said 45, just build a little buffer. But any hours they work beyond 45 hours, we would pay an additional hourly rate on top of their salary. So if there was something going on, like the holidays or we had big parties or we were short-staffed and someone called in sick and they had to work, at least they were compensated for it and we felt that was really important because you know, a lot of people will offer you a job and say, oh no, it's only 40 hours or it's 45.
Beth Hussey:But then you get in there and all of a sudden you're responsible of everything. So if someone doesn't show up or if you're super busy or whatever, you're all of a sudden working these 60 hours but you're still getting paid the same amount.
Christin Marvin:So it felt a little bit like if we didn't do something to guarantee it that they would just think it was you know yeah lip service yeah yeah, feel appreciated when you pay them over 40 hours because they know that they understand, that you understand, that they're going to be working harder and that they're going to be working.
Beth Hussey:Yeah, yeah, and in the beginning we did it a little bit. We pay. You know, it was an opening of a restaurant. People work more and so we did. We paid them extra money on their checks. Now we don't, not because we don't want to, not because we won't, but we don't need to. They never work. They never work more than really, more than 40 hours.
Emmele Herrold:Yeah, well, they have a hard time getting their 40 hours and that's fine with us. You know, as long as you know, as long as the guests and the employees you know we were big, you know kind of our motto is is we want the managers to treat the employees like their guests, right, like we want the managers to treat the employees like they're guests, right, like we want the employees to treat our guests. So their job is to serve the employees, so our employees and our guests have to be having a great experience and you get that way with the right management coverage. So as long as that's happening and that's an easy thing to measure, right, we know thing to measure right, we know, believe me, if our employees are unhappy, they let us know.
Emmele Herrold:And yeah, so it's really great. We've got very happy guests. We've got very happy employees.
Christin Marvin:And it's just working. It works really well. You mentioned last year that average employee turnover was a month and 26 days, and for you all it's two and a half years. So this is clearly important.
Emmele Herrold:Yeah, according to the National Restaurant Association so that's a real number that in the United States the average amount of time that a worker stays at a job is less than two months. It's one month and 26 days and that you know we've got real, live data to pull for in the almost six years that we've been open are I mean and it's been a few months since I've checked it, so it's actually probably longer now but two and a half years is the average amount of time that our employees stay with us. They don't leave once they start. If they leave, it's because they're having a baby or they're moving or they graduated and they are going into their careers. You know it's a very transient industry but thankfully we've been able to like really have a good, strong core employees that stay with us.
Christin Marvin:Yeah, and you two were in position, right, emily, you were running the heart of the house, beth, you're running the front of the house. Did you start with this management philosophy out of the gate, or how has that kind of grown in order to get you two out of position? Because you have a few managers, right? We?
Beth Hussey:do? Yeah, we basically have four managers two front, two back and then some key employees who have been with us since the beginning. But the positions, I think what happened? The managers we have one manager the kitchen manager has been with us since we opened. The rest of them we have sort of cultivated into the right ones.
Beth Hussey:We've lost some managers that just weren't working out, and I think at the beginning that was happening a lot. You don't know what you're doing and you got to kind of weed out some people. So for sure, then we were working way more because we of course want to be here, but also needed to be in order for people to see how we wanted it run. And over the years we have found the right people for the right jobs. And now that they're here doing what we've asked them to do, we didn't really change anything. We asked, we just found the right people who are willing to do it, and they've all now been with us. I think our newest manager is two and a half years. So it just same amount of things happening and actually we're busier and the sales are double whatever, but just with the right people and we're not afraid to say this isn't the right fit.
Beth Hussey:You know, we love our employees, but not all of them are going to be the right fit, and we will quickly just eliminate those positions and say you know, this isn't the right fit for us. So now we have not just management, but all of our staff, from top to bottom, fits with us. So now we have not just management, but all of our staff, from top to bottom, fits with us. And if they don't, and they come in and they're filling a role and they're not working, step in and do the job until we find someone who will fit that role.
Emmele Herrold:It's so. It's so like. You know there's so many restaurant owners or operators out there that, like, have the complete opposite approach. You know it's like every. You know they, they, they won't. There's not enough small wares there's not enough. You know glassware. There's not enough silverware. There's not enough people there's not enough. You know everything. They make it really. Yeah, they, they're really saving. You know, think they're saving money, but in my opinion, they're just making making it real. Yeah, they, they, they're really saving. You know, think they're saving money, but in my opinion, they're just making making it very hard for your employees to do the job that you want them to do, and you want them to do it. Well, I assume, like, why would you make it difficult for them? Um, I don't know where I was going with this, but somewhere. Well, I think that it's yeah it was a smart um.
Beth Hussey:It's because these people listen. If they didn't like their job or if they weren't making money, they wouldn't work here. Like, we're not foolish enough to think that if they were coming in and making 50 bucks a night or 100 bucks a night, that they would work here that long. They might love us, but they're not going to stay. If they came in and didn't have the tools they needed to do their job well and make their money, they also wouldn't stay. Have the tools they needed to do their job well and make their money, they also wouldn't stay. So what we've been saying just in the last few months. We said I think that we're here to provide people with really good jobs. Like, if that's all we're doing, you know we're paying ourselves a salary. We're not sitting here. Well, now we are, but really we're not making hand over fist because we're willing to spend the money in order to make this a really good place for not just the guests but the employees.
Beth Hussey:So, we're buying what they need. We have an app that they write every day I need you to order this. I order it, it's there the next day. We're giving them a really good place to work, so, in turn, everyone makes more money.
Christin Marvin:Yeah, and you're so right, there's so many operators out there that have the mindset of I'm paying this employee 60 grand or 70 grand or 80 grand, I expect more, I expect them to work so much and it's it's not working and it's wrong and it's a really nasty habit that has got to change because it's not working for the industry and right here is as you, with all the knowledge and expertise that you have and, beth, I think you mentioned it earlier you brought people in that could execute what you saw the vision being for your company.
Christin Marvin:How did you? I've got some clients that are struggling with this. They're in a position where they are wanting to step out of the day-to-day operations in order to expand and there's uncomfortability, obviously, in doing that right, letting go of some control and some of the reins a little bit. But with some newer people coming into the industry, it's getting more and more challenging to teach people on a quicker you know quicker scale how to execute at that same level that an owner visualizes. How did you teach the managers how to do that?
Emmele Herrold:Well, it's interesting because it's I mean, it's less about teaching and more about feeling because it's you know, you, that's the I think that's where I was going with my comment earlier is like they have to care enough to want to do a good job right. And if, if, if, if we were tyrants that run around yelling, demanding 60 hours, not letting them buy the things they need to do their job well, they, what? Why would they care about you know, our customers and care about our employees and want to do well for them? But it's kind of like just like raising babies, right. It's like it's that whole thing. You know, do what I say, not what I do. That's like the worst way to teach anybody anything. So it's sort of lead by example. So you know, we're taking good care of our managers, our managers are taking good care of our employees, our employees are taking good care of our guests. So you've got to cultivate a culture that the employees care enough to want to do good, instead of they just show up and punch in and make their money.
Beth Hussey:I think that, if I may sorry, yeah, I think part of it is listening to them as well. Like they, these people have all been in this business a long time. We're not plucking people off the street who've never managed a restaurant. I would, I would love to train them right up from the bottom. But they have ideas right, they have thoughts and we listen to them. We, we will always be a phone call, a text message, whatever way, and when they say things we're like oh yeah, that's a good point, that that helps them enjoy their job. But it also helps create that culture where people are.
Beth Hussey:We're able to step away because we're learning from each other and we know, based on their response to our reaction, that they care and that they're doing it with us, not even just for us. So to me, in order to step away, you need that mutual trust. So it's not just like here's some systems, here's a list, make sure they're filled out. I'm going home, it's. Why is there a list? Does this list need to be written down? What is the culture? Why does this list exist? The system for us is less about a handwritten piece of paper, typed out piece of paper that someone needs to checkmark, than the real understanding as to why we're doing what we're doing and what that means for everyone.
Christin Marvin:Yeah, and it's so important that what you said about it's a feeling, right I?
Beth Hussey:hear that a lot.
Christin Marvin:Well, it's hard to teach people because it's a. It's just what.
Christin Marvin:I feel, it's the energy when I walk into the room, and that that feeling is made up of so many different aspects right Of verbal cues, nonverbal cues, looking at the guests, looking at the staff, their motions, their behaviors. Right the lighting, the music, the ambience, all the things. But I love again the approach of we're going to show them that we care about them and open up space for ideas so that they feel what experience we want to provide to the guests by providing it to them first. Right, you're really doing a great job of leading by, so kudos to you yeah, well, one here.
Emmele Herrold:Here's one. It's just. It's just a really quick little anecdote, but this is one that your listeners can you know it's, it's concrete thing that they can do and take from this. This was one of my favorite stories is, you know, you do. Obviously you do have to train them well, but staff meetings are a great example, right especially the front of the house. For some reason. You know restaurants all across the world like they have these, like all team meetings, two or three a year. It's always a big deal, and any restaurant operators that are listening to this podcast, I'm sure they're nodding their head when I say every.
Emmele Herrold:All staff meeting goes the same way, right? Everyone shows up, several of the people late in their pajamas and angry that they have to be there. The managers or owners stand up at the front of the room and rant about all the things that are wrong. Here's what's wrong, here's what's got to change, you got to stop doing this. So it's a long list of that kind of thing. And then at the end of the meeting, the employees have their chance to talk, and then you know people raise their hands and they it's their chance to be heard, and nine times out of 10, it's a soapbox and they're really just talking to hear themselves talk and they're making complaints. You know petty little things and all the things that frustrate them about working there. So that's the way every all staff meeting in America goes.
Emmele Herrold:We this was one of my favorite things. I actually created a feature in Shifty, which I know we haven't talked about Shifty yet, but because of this one meeting we had, one time I created a special feature where it was after the pandemic and you know we were going through that. Like you know, open don't open, open don't open 100%, 50%, you know all of that kind of stuff that we went through with the government. And anyway the staff was finally like we need a meeting. It had been probably over two years since we'd had a meeting because we'd been through the pandemic and they're like itching for a meeting. So they're telling us we need a staff meeting, we need a staff meeting. So we were like, okay, obviously our employees have a lot of things on their mind, so instead of like doing what we've always done right, do what you always did, do what you always got.
Emmele Herrold:We decided, okay, everybody, we're going to have a meeting, but instead of doing it the normal way, we're going to put out a suggestion box. So we bought a red box with a slit in it and we put some index cards and we said all the things that are on your mind that you want to talk about at this meeting. Any thoughts or feelings that you have that you want to address at this meeting. Write it down, put it in the box. Emily and I and the management team will get together a week before the meeting, read all your suggestions and comments and we'll come up with solutions for them. So they did that. I mean, we had a stack this big of index cards of all the things little things that bothered the employees about you know things little things that bothered the employees about you know what was happening in the world of working here and they like, most of it was really good stuff, like you know, you're absolutely right, we should change that. Some of it was like okay, obviously they don't know what it takes to run a business, so let's just explain why they can't have it that way. So we showed up at this meeting. We came up with solutions for every one of the things that bothered them. We showed up at this meeting and we sat at the front of the room and we read every single card and said this was a great suggestion. Here's what we're doing to fix it. This was a great suggestion. Here's what we're doing to fix it. This was a great suggestion, but we can't fix it. And this is why and we had this meeting Not one person had a negative thing to say and it was such a great feeling and every employee left that meeting.
Emmele Herrold:I mean, we both got text messages after that meeting saying this is the greatest place to work in the world, like we feel so heard and it was so cool. I get goosebumps just thinking about it. But it was really cool. It was really, really, really productive and the employees loved it and they felt so good and we did. You know you have to like, you have to do what you say you're going to do. That's the most important thing in life, not just in restaurants. But you know we did have to put all those changes in motion, which we had pretty much already done, but we did that and the employees loved it. So it was a really great way to have a staff meeting I highly encourage. All you got to do is buy some index cards and get yourself a little box and it eliminates that bitch fest at the end of the meeting.
Beth Hussey:You know, like just those weird questions that you're like okay, that could have been an email. We made it that way, you know.
Christin Marvin:That's great and yeah, trust me, I've run many meetings like that. I'm getting crin, I'm getting a horrible goosebumps thinking about oh shit, I put those poor employees through that.
Christin Marvin:I just again like amazing that you I love that you you knew that the shit storm was coming right. You, you trusted your intuition. You had a hunch that they were going to be. There was going to be a lot of information flowing at you and a great way to be proactive. Do something small, be proactive and change the environment around it, which changed the behavior, which is great. So you, Beth, you have a very specific way of training and you've been able to turn that into something incredible with Shifty. Talk a little bit about that.
Emmele Herrold:Yeah, it's really a fun story. You know, when we did close the restaurant for the pandemic, you know we closed completely because we weren't doing any carryout. We were just barely a year old and first time in my adult life I, you know, wasn't going to work all day, every day, and I decided to use that time to turn my unique way of training restaurant workers into a technology platform. So in very early in my career, in the early 90s actually, I learned that I figured out that training was something I was passionate about. It's one of my favorite aspects of the industry. There's so many aspects and I enjoy the training piece, and so I did kind of develop a little bit of a unique way of training. It's not all that different from the way all restaurants already train their employees with, you know, the shadow shifts or the follow shifts, just a few added elements that make it very repeatable and very, you know, measurable. So you know we I love technology, we use technology every chance we get to manage all aspects of our business. I was always surprised that something didn't exist out there in the world that would help me train my employees. So, anyway, dove in, figured out how to get software developed, learned about tech startups, raised the money I needed to raise to get the platform developed and we launched about two years ago. It's called Shifty. Our tagline is get your shift together. We were able to trademark that and you know it's really cool. We just passed 100 locations a month or two ago and it's going really well. It's really well received. I cried when she passed 100. It's awesome. It's really cool. It's just a cool platform that helps restaurants do what they're already doing to try to train their employees. It's just, you know, most restaurants, you know.
Emmele Herrold:I always say you know, here's the way 9 out of 10 restaurants train their employees. This is one they're going to shake their heads about also. But, like you know, the new employee will show up on their on their first day and the manager will like, if they even, you know, forgot they were even coming, they'll have that oh shit moment. Like, oh, yeah, you, I hired you. They'll stick them with whoever happens to be the best server on the floor that day. And then that server is, you know, basically wondering what he did to deserve this punishment that he's got to train. So that's just like the worst way to welcome a new employee into the team and he agrees to let that employee tag along and then he'll attempt to show them the ropes right, and so we never really know how that employee is getting trained.
Emmele Herrold:We cross our fingers and hope that employee does a good job training and they might be having a good day. They might be having a bad day, but who knows what they actually taught the new employee. And then they you know, they show up again the next day and we do the same thing, but maybe with a different server. So it's like there's no real way. So what most restaurants neglect to do is to give the trainer any you know, materials or direction whatsoever about how to train or what you want them to train. So you know that I could go on for hours and hours. But it's a really cool platform. It's called Shifty and it kind of can work for really any concept. It does come preloaded with a whole bunch of like universal training that restaurants can use if they don't have any training regimen whatsoever, or they can, you know, wipe it all out and impart their own existing training materials right in the system. So it's pretty cool.
Christin Marvin:That's awesome. And what's the goal for you here with this? Was this kind of like, you know, yes, I've got the time, I'm very passionate about this, but was this, you know, let's, let's increase, let's enhance, you know, or create a different revenue stream for the business? Is this an exit strategy for you? What's the goal?
Emmele Herrold:You know kind of all of it. It's. You know, emily and I always are like you know, we got to be working on something. You know we've got our restaurant running like a well-oiled machine. Our managers are taking care of the baby. So we're always kind of thinking of different things. We're doing some consulting. Emily is-.
Beth Hussey:She became a tech mogul and I became a swim coach. I don't know. I don't know. It seems like she's choosing the better path. I work in public high schools and community pools. It's fine.
Christin Marvin:One of these things is not like the other but, it.
Beth Hussey:I also probably work three times as many hours with lots of children but that's okay, I love it.
Emmele Herrold:I love that. Yeah, it's, you know, we're kind of both, you know, doing our own thing, but we're also doing our own thing together. It's, um, you know we're. It's you know, whatever I do is just going to make the restaurant healthier, I don't know. So what's the goal? The goal is to like win. That's always been like. I've always been in it for the win. Like if I do a restaurant, I want it to be a success, obviously. I mean, I know that sounds stupid.
Emmele Herrold:Some people love failing yeah for me, it's not the money, it's the win, it's the pride, it's the experience, it's the reputation, it's all those things. So I want to succeed with Shifty. You know the goal is to get as many people using it as possible. Kind of feel like I feel passionate about sharing this unique way of training with the world. That sounds kind of cliche, but I do. Sounds kind of cliche, but I do, but but yeah, and then you know, if it makes me like wildly, you know wealthy, you know we're it's we're all going to win because of it that you know that is the goal.
Emmele Herrold:So I don't really know, like, what is the goal? Like probably to exit someday with it.
Christin Marvin:Well, you two are just you're so incredible. I mean you know you've got. You know, emily, you've got. In addition to running the restaurant, you've been all the time participated. You're such a testament to what can happen if you truly care about people, develop people, treat them the right way and then open up space and opportunity for yourself to to do what you love and continue to just follow your passion. So, absolutely incredible. And if that's not enough, you're you're starting to lean into some consulting work as well, right yeah?
Emmele Herrold:We love it. We love it, we love restaurants and we feel we go into places and we always feel like man, there's just a few little tweaks these guys could make and they would be knocking it out of the park and we'd love to help, yeah.
Beth Hussey:I think it's that same feeling we had when we're like what do we do? We got to fix it in order to succeed. We don't want anyone to fail To us. It's, you know, just like people think competition. We love competition. We want people around us to be successful so that everyone is. You know it's hard when you go into a place and know that people put their blood, sweat, tears and money into something and they're not necessarily doing a great job. And it's not because they don't want to. And if it's because they don't have the experience or the right staff or whatever, we think we can help. So why not ask if they want our help and see where it goes?
Emmele Herrold:You know, the one thing that hasn't been said yet that probably should have been like. The only thing that was said is like it really helps to have someone that understands and is great with good food. Like Emily is an amazing chef. Like she seriously is. Like you know, she can do the cool stuff, she can do the you know simple stuff, but everything she does she just does it right. We call each other food soulmates. The chefs are the hardest part of the business, right? I always say, if I weren't a chef.
Beth Hussey:I don't know that I would want to own a restaurant If I had to hire the chef. It makes it so much harder. So if we're consulting, we have that built in right. I can take that chef, not just teach them recipes or give them recipes, but show them a really nice way to work. I you know that show the bear is like great, great, but so stressful and like it angers me the amount of yelling and I'm like what is this doing? It's creating this culture is just making it this pop culture now, and I'm like it doesn't have to be that way. You don't have to yell at people, you don't have to throw things you don't like yeah, and and I think it's made it, I don't know even cooler to be that way so many ways around.
Emmele Herrold:People like, oh, that's so realistic. Or people are like is that how it? Is like?
Beth Hussey:no that is.
Emmele Herrold:That is not how it is in my world, and nothing. I'm yeah, but um I agree with you.
Christin Marvin:I was my husband was in the business. When we were watching that show and the tickets were flying out of the printer, we had to pause it. We looked at each other and our hearts were racing. We were like this is it? Will Godera just announced today that he's co-producing the show, so it'll be interesting to see what if there's any changes to this next season that comes out this week.
Emmele Herrold:So will you who's? Producing the show.
Christin Marvin:Will Godera.
Emmele Herrold:Emily and I live that like we had that experience with the tickets. Do we have one tiny, quick, quick story? I'll be real quick. It was, you know, we closed for the pandemic and we were closed for six weeks and we were really early to get the PPP loan. We were all over that and you know, the money came in and we're like well, I guess we got to open right, because the whole idea of that PPP was to like put people to work and get people back out working and paying people. So we brought a small crew of people back to work and we decided to open. We were only allowed to do carry out only and so we decided let's just do lobster rolls and you know, basically just lobster.
Emmele Herrold:I think we did lobster rolls and peel and eat shrimp and lobster bisque and we did our publicist, you know, did a press release and said you know they're opening and you can get lobster rolls at this time online ordering. And we opened and you know we didn't have online ordering before the pandemic, so all these things came out of the pandemic that were so great. But um, we, uh, we opened that day and we sold 1,000 lobster rolls In a shift.
Beth Hussey:It was to this day. To this day it was we weren't open. We were not open. We were selling one thing and there was no one in the building, and it was the hardest shift of my life. Yeah, I mean the tickets in that scene in the bear. It quite literally happened that way because, of course, we also didn't know anything. We didn't have online ordering. There was a little bit of a glitch and it didn't just like in the bear and it didn't.
Beth Hussey:They didn't come out it was like when the printer was broken they all came and I had it just exactly like that flowing down. It looks like a tornado. I mean it was. It was insane. I never want to experience it again. But I laugh. I'm like the sales were higher than most of our sales have ever been. It's still one of our record days and we weren't even open.
Emmele Herrold:We think that people thought we were only opening for the one day, so everybody thought they had to come and we sold 1,000 lobster rolls hardest shift of our lives. And then, a week and a half later, it was Mother's Day, where we were doing the same thing, only selling lobster rolls. We sold a thousand lobster rolls that day too, but it was like we were bored out of our minds. It was the easiest thing, so we were able to kind of like but yeah, that was the craziest, craziest shift, but a lot of fun.
Beth Hussey:Yeah, same though I had that scene killed me.
Emmele Herrold:Yeah, it's terrifying.
Christin Marvin:Anytime we've implemented online ordering uh, in the concepts I've worked in, you learn very quickly how to turn the pacing on, yeah, or turn it off, turn it off.
Emmele Herrold:Yeah, yeah.
Christin Marvin:And it's not. It's pretty much a piece of paper. But um well, thank you so much again. Again, I'm so inspired by your story and just super excited to share it with everybody. I love the themes of taking care of your people. I love the themes of just experimenting Again, just really leaning into something uncomfortable and just trying a little promo. You saw what worked with your business, you leaned into it and it's just proven to produce some amazing results, and for you, obviously financially, but for your people and just where you're at in your life. So kudos to you and really really appreciate you being here today, thank you.
Beth Hussey:Yeah, thank you for doing what you do. It's a great platform to exist, for sure.
Emmele Herrold:Yeah, absolutely yeah. We will spread the word and can't wait to hear the hear, the podcast. That'll be fun.
Christin Marvin:Yeah, absolutely, and I want to come and visit you, visit your restaurant. I will not order a lobster roll, I will order something else.
Emmele Herrold:Michigan is lovely in the summertime, so get out of Tucson and come check us out sometime.
Christin Marvin:Yeah, we'll come check it out and get one of those token burgers as well. All right. That is going to do it for us this week. Thank you so much for listening and please be please share this episode or this podcast with any restaurant industry people that you know that could benefit. We will talk to you next week. Restaurant industry people that you know that could benefit. We will talk to you next week.
Christin Marvin:Awesome. Thank you two so much. Thank you Great to talk to you. Have a great. If there's anything I can do for you from a shifty perspective, beth, let me know. Do you want to talk If there's some things I can do from a partnership?
Emmele Herrold:you know partnership, yes, I have a really nice referral program I'd love to share with you, so I'll send you an email.
Christin Marvin:That's great, and then if I can get some content in for you in the newsletters or episodes. The cool thing about this stuff is especially the podcast. It's evergreen. So, if you want, to schedule some time and get creative about it. I've got some ideas I can run by, so yeah, that sounds awesome.
Emmele Herrold:Thank you so much. I'll connect with you in an email okay, sounds great.
Christin Marvin:Have a great weekend.