Is Your Work Ethic Actually Destroying Your Health? | Bianca Errigo on Trail Blazers

April is Stress Awareness Month so there's no better time for this conversation. 

In our third sit-down with Bianca Errigo, CEO of HumanOS, Johnny Isaacs digs into one of the most important topics nobody wants to talk about: the devastating impact of stress on our health, our workplaces and our lives. Stress is at the root of 80-90% of human illness and disease. Burnout is hitting people at an average age of just 32. 150 million people in Europe alone are living with mental health issues. And yet somehow, we still glamorise the grind.

Bianca and Johnny explore the deep roots of hustle culture, tracing it from early religious morality through the Industrial Revolution and ask why working yourself into the ground became a mark of status and whether that's finally starting to change.

They also get into the real psychology behind high performance: why most founders and top achievers start from a place of trauma rather than love, what true resilience actually looks like and why separating your self-worth from your business results might be the most important skill you never learned.

And they tackle the conversations happening right now AI and automation replacing jobs, the anxiety gripping workplaces where employee engagement sits at just 10% in the UK and what it actually takes to raise VC funding as a woman in a male-dominated industry. Bianca shares, with true honesty, what the first two years of building HumanOS really cost her and how she found her way back.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Hard work was much more than hard work. It was almost like a morally virtuous signaling to the rest of the world that you are someone of worth. In all the health challenges that are arising now, but stress is at the basic cause of 80 to 90% of human illness and disease. It no longer works. People know there's more out there.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

It's a pleasure to have you back in the studio again.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

John Isaacs, it's an absolute pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

What did we agree?

SPEAKER_03 0:46

Three is the magic number!

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Okay, yeah, there we go.

SPEAKER_03 0:52

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

So we've spoken a lot recently about this kind of like maniacal work ethic that seems to be pervasive in our culture. Yeah. Talk me through the origins of that and where that kind of came from.

SPEAKER_03 1:06

So background. Protestant church, the early, early origins were actually hard work was much more than hard work. It was almost like a morally virtuous signalling to the rest of the world that you are someone of worth. And this is really like where the origins began of how hard I work is a direct representation of how worthy I am in society and how seriously I should be taken. Then when you move further from that, um John? John John Calvin, who was a this was like in the sort of 1500s as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

I know I look good for my age, but I'm not the John that you were referring to. I just sort of ended up with inflection. John?

SPEAKER_03 1:56

John Calvin tonight. Yes, the John Calvin and the whole Calvinist movement, and then they sort of further accelerated, accelerated that. Um and then we went into sort of more come forward a few hundred years into the industrial revolution, where really it was how hard we work, how much product we create is how much money we make. And human beings became cogs in their machine, and they were working ridiculous hours, in ridiculous conditions, and very much just a piece of the puzzle towards again almost the modern society and what we now normalize as what people should be doing and how they should behave when it comes to effort, work, reward.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

It's kind of like martyrdom, yeah. In a sense, that you get closer to God by the suffering that you're willing to endure, but it's also a weird perverse incentive because actually, for someone who doesn't yet have status, it provides you with a mechanism to, like you said, it's performative. Yeah. You know, I'm, you know, I'm sleeping four hours a night. Like I am, I am worthy. I'm worthy to have this conversation with you. Yeah. And that ties a badge of honour. Yeah, and it squares the circle that we were talking about from the sense that those people that operate from a place of lack, who operate from a place of needing to prove something to earn love or to earn respect, actually, that all ties together in this sense of well, working harder gets you close to God, gets you closer to that respect, gets you close to the love that you want to earn, but also it perversely works in the to the benefit of these larger organizations, clubs, and entities who extract more value out of you, the person who is the cog in that wheel, yeah, who is just willing to throw yourself into the meat grinder for them to take money from.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

Yeah, with the rise of technology and social media and how much information is available to individuals now where they can go and search for responses that suit what they want to read and hear more closely, be entangled that carrot as the motivation in the workplace, it no longer works. People know there's more out there.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Yeah. I think from from what we've spoken about, weirdly, as doom and gloom as the kind of like the AI component of this all is, and this and that and the other, I do feel a sense of optimism about how the pendulum seems to be swinging that the other way, and because there is a bit of a movement towards kind of like more analogue in you know, younger generations. There is a movement to finding more low-tech ways to enjoy your time, whether it be kind of like going out in nature or whatever, and so I think maybe trusting to the point about trust in human nature to correct a little bit of this situation that we're in at the moment. I think we're starting to see a bit of that, a little bit more awareness, which is probably one of the benefits. You could argue that obviously too much information is an inherent negative when you don't know what to do with it, but ultimately at a certain point when you have enough information, you can make an informed decision and be like, actually, hell no, that isn't what I want.

SPEAKER_03 5:26

Yeah, I think we're really at almost like a precipice of a breaking point, and people so many people feel so bad. 150 million people in Europe alone have mental health issues. Average age of burnout is 32 years old. Anxiety, depression never been so high, resilience never been so low. People no longer feel good and they want to. And so they're asking questions, they're seeking, they're coming back to themselves, they're coming back to nature. And I do believe that will create a positive change for the direction in which we choose to try and go as a society. You're right, younger generations are sort of stepping back from technology in many ways. It's almost like global warming and how much damage has been done and how easy is it going to be to reverse. And that's kind of where now it's going to come down again to real intentionality. It's it has to be at government, societal, global level. Like we need to be reframing and rethinking what are these policies, what are what are we promoting and what are we supporting so that individuals can actually find meaning and purpose and fulfillment and health once again. And it will be challenging, but it's by no means impossible.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Again, we spoke about the kind of the LinkedIn statistics around kind of like the 1% of creators, the 3% of people who actually engage in comment, and then the 97% of people who are observers. And it makes me think about those people who often create the content are the people who are in those positions or aspire to be in those positions, and they hire teams and they have mechanisms that allow for them to be to be able to do that. But then it also makes me think about the kind of social media component to this that normalizes and continues to perpetuate this belief where maybe if we were able to step back from it a little bit, we would realise there is nothing normal about that type of existence, and if anything, you wouldn't want that type of existence for yourself.

SPEAKER_03 7:46

No, and it's that glamorization piece, isn't it? And as we know, the vast majority of startups fail, and quite often they fail because the founders can no longer do it, they can no longer survive it, because they don't treat what they're going into like the beast it is, where it's not even a marathon, it's like an ultra marathon on steroids, really, and so they think intensity over consistency, and until that narrative, until you're really in it and you learn actually like this is the long game, and we need to be implementing behaviours for that long game within reason because there's always going to be sacrifice, particularly at the start. And as you know, I'm not a multi-billion dollar company unicorn founder, so I can only imagine that the problems and the intensity get more challenging the bigger the stakes get, but then you have more wisdom and more knowledge on how you are adaptable towards that. But ultimately, if you are not being able to protect yourself within that journey and ensure that you still have the energy to do your job or do your job to the best of your ability, because effectively all your life is going to become is a series of problem solving, and if you can't think clearly and coherently about that, then actually everything else is going to become very, very challenging very, very quickly.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Does a large component of that come down to the people that you have around you as well, in the sense that to build this sort of integration, this emotional resilience to solve these problems and come over overcome these challenges, you probably need to have some degree of emotional regulation. And you won't necessarily always just get that innately, that won't just always come from you, it will come from the people around you. But as you were talking there about you know that multi-billion dollar founder, or presumably, as they go up that pyramid, they then surround themselves with people that they can offload some of those other things. Because if you had to deal with all of the different aspects or components or problems of the organization, and you were expected as one person to have all of those answers, you'd lose your mind. Yeah, of course. So that kind of power of delegation, but then also the reason.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

So they're two different things, right? There's the business and the business problems, which is one thing, but then there's also you and your own knowledge of your internal self, what motivates you, what what uh inhibits you, you can't offload onto other people internal traits or skills or or behaviours or habits you do not yet have. If you are ultimately, if you do not have the resilience, and if you are not being intentional with how you build resilience, and resilience isn't just actually continuing to push more, and that's that's often the opposite of resilience. Resilience is actually emotional regulation, it's a self-awareness, it's a being able to rest and recover so you can actually deal with things instead of suppressing them. So all of these key skills, like a real understanding of yourself, like what is actually motivating you? When is that a good thing? When is that a bad thing? Because how many in fact, have you ever met a founder who started on their founder journey from a place of love and not trauma? No, it doesn't exist. They may turn to love through that journey, and that's something personally that I've really been working on over the past year or so. But the majority of times, and this actually, no, this isn't just founders, this is any sort of high achievers, I guess. This could be founders, but this could be your top performers within workplaces, your top performing sports people. It's top performance, high performance across the board rarely comes from a place of love and fulfillment. It can come, it often comes from a place of lack, whether that's a lack of love from your parents, whether that's a lack of acceptance from your childhood friends, whether that's a lack of knowledge and not being able to perform in school as you would want, um, all the way through to more really more traumatic things like childhood abuse, grief, you know, there's a whole arena of different things that can happen in one's life that then motivates someone to stick that finger up to the world. And that is often where a lot of the time we are coming from as founders is I have something to prove and I am going to prove it. And that's great because that does make us more resilient. It keeps us going when most people will quit.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_03 12:33

It gives you that grit and that determination. None of these are bad things, but it also is what will ultimately tear you down if you are not aware. Because it's also what will mean that you will never be able to have boundaries, never able to prioritize what's important in life outside of just work. Never give yourself the self-compassion you deserve, never give yourself the recovery that you deserve. And ultimately it'll be why you, if you're so lucky, to get there on your deathbed when you're an old person in your 80s, 90s in today's society, 120s or whatever it may be, and you've achieved everything in life, and yet you feel like you have nothing.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

I mean, that is such a profound point. The founders, entrepreneurs, high achievers. I do think that you're completely right. The the place I don't know anyone who's started that journey who has come from a place of already feeling abundant, who has started that journey from a place of love. Because ultimately it does come down to there is a feeling of inadequacy.

SPEAKER_03 13:34

Inadequacy, yeah. Pain. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

There is there is always that I have to earn the love of someone. I have to stay.

SPEAKER_03 13:42

Earn the respect of my dad that I've never had. I have to show that childhood bully. I have to teach that school that I'm smart.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:50

All of these things that we hear all of the time.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

So I this is a very odd segue.

SPEAKER_03 13:58

But love an odd segue.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

But kind of like so, this as well. I think we're seeing a bit of a shift here. And I maybe this is just from my own perspective, part of the journey that I'm on of you know, becoming a dad and all of this sort of stuff, and maybe I'm getting more in touch with the the warm and fuzzies. But I do think that there is a little bit more of a rejection of the kind of drive to be, you know, that super super 0.01%, if it comes at the expense of family connection, yeah, that fulfillment part. And I guess the question that I've got there is with that, has that come as a result of what we're seeing on the kind of global stage? The founders that maybe were once admired, those people that we pedestalized, we're now maybe seeing actually, you know what? What they believe in and what they're promoting isn't something that I want to be a part of, isn't something that I recognize as being positive in a human sense. And so there is a rejection of that perspective and view.

SPEAKER_03 15:04

Yeah, it's it's a great point. And I again I think there's two sides to this, and there's the yes and there's the no. There's been a real societal shift over the six plus years, COVID-19, shining a spotlight for the first time. Many people were actually questioning what they want from life, feeling unsafe in life, understanding that there's things that go on far outside of their control. And for many, that's not really something they experience until you go through illness or losing a loved one, or you know, you go through something that is genuinely really challenging and worldview questioning. But then the pandemic did that at scale. Then you follow on from that, and economic uncertainty, political unrest, particularly at the moment with everything that's going on, geopolitical factors, feeling like they're getting closer and closer to home, and again, this ridiculous naivety that people have in the Western world that these things that are happening don't impact them because they're so disconnected from other human beings purely because of winning the ovarian lottery and wherever they were born, but it's a whole different rabbit hole for a different day. Um, but then also that the rise of AI, and of course, like how quickly technology is moving. And so there's a lot of these factors at play that are making people really question like, who am I? What do I want? What is important to me, um, and how am I going to be more intentional towards that? Absolutely. I think there's greater polar, there's more polarization in the world than ever before. So there's the biggest disparity between the top 0.1% and everyone else. And so there's also that sort of feeling for many of like actually how how attainable are these things. We're living at a time where like how difficult now is it as founders, as professional workers, to actually go and make good money and make the money you deserve to make and keep that money, both at an individual level and organizational level, but actually like how hard it is now just to employ people and how expensive everything is becoming. So I think there's another sort of fact of like how how attainable are actually these things now in the current economy we are in, um, without getting political once again. I'm really going to get cancelled today. Um, you're okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

I think everyone's feeling much the much the same thing. And if you ask any founder, ask anyone trying to run a business, even if they're operating in a business that is not their own, exactly, they will tell you how challenging the environment is.

SPEAKER_03 17:44

It's a really challenging time. So that makes people question as well. But then I also think there is the a lot of what once was associated as like toxic habits or behaviors have almost just sort of been rebranded. So what was okay, toxic toxic.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Tell me more. I am very curious about this.

SPEAKER_03 18:06

So this like almost soft era online world we're now seeing. So your morning journaling and your breath work and the 5 a.m. routines, Robin Charmer. They're now, and they're all now almost being glamorized as this is alignment, this is purpose, this is living with intention and doing what I believe in, as opposed to this is me being a toxic worker. And so it's the same attributes, just wearing a different costume, of course, and just being labelled in different ways.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Well, it's it's it's you're taking something that is, you know, it is potentially the right thing for one person, but one size fits one.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

And then saying like to a whole load of other people, you need to get up before the sun rises, you need to do your meditation, your breath work, you need to journal, you need to have your juice cleansed, and all this sort of stuff. And if you're not doing that, you're a horrible human being. Like it's it's as you say, it's replacing one part of toxicity, bringing it into the workplace. But now it's like, oh no, no, no, we're just gonna move it and shift it over into your non-working life.

SPEAKER_03 19:15

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

And if you're not achieving here, then you're equally not achieving.

SPEAKER_03 19:19

Yeah, and also like on the point of our people moving away from this like toxic behaviour, again, it's just like a slight evolution of what that toxic behaviour may look like. And again, there's nothing wrong with these things if they genuinely work for you and they genuinely serve you. Do I get up at 5 a.m. every day? Yes, because I really love the mornings. I'm a morning person. Am I asleep by 8:30 p.m.? Yes, because I get up at 5. And so it's not like again, it's not it's not black and white, but I think we have to be really careful because a lot of what we're being shown, or this narrative that we think may be evolving, like are our nervous systems actually more regulated? Probably not. Is ambition on the decline? I personally don't think so. Um but it's interesting how the different generations are going through their different evolutions, and for the millennials where we sit and sit in that sort of sandwich generation of the boomers above us who work hard, earn your b earn your stripes, rest when you're dead, sacrifice everything to the company that you're working for, one company your whole life, a lot of the time, um, and do what needs to be done and don't moan about it. And we've seen that and we've witnessed that, and we've seen how ill it's made our parents or you look at photos, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Look at photos of the average 30-year-old of our parents' generation, and then compare them with the average 30-year-old of our generation. Like that person looks about 60 at the age of 30, like they're sitting around the pool in the 70s, and you think, right, oh well, I didn't realise granddad was there with you. That wasn't granddad, that was dad. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 21:07

Exactly, and all the health challenges that are arising now, and it's not just from working too hard, but stress is at the basic cause of 80 to 90 percent of human illness and disease. And so when you do your stress plus your lifestyle choices, they can it's no surprise. Then on the other side, we see the new generations come up, most recently Jen A, I think, who are entering a workforce roundabout now, um, and all the challenges they're having because they don't have resilience, they don't understand long-term gratification. And for me, they and they get a lot of bad rep, and I don't think they deserve that at all. I don't think they are lazy at all. I just think they don't have the environments in which bring out their true potential unless the environments are being moulded, and that's the job of the modern workplace right now, which we can come into. But we sort of sit between these two groups, and we are a little bit toxic in our own. Because we kind of do believe you have to work and earn your badges and keep your mouth shut sometimes. And we don't mind a bit of toxic sacrifice to get to where we need to be. But then we also kind of see this generation and we're like, oh yeah, but I would actually, I wouldn't mind starting my own company, I wouldn't mind being a CEO, and I wouldn't mind working from Bali once a month, or I wouldn't mind a little 3 pm finish. And so we're sort of we're between those two camps. And so I think you're sort of seeing all of those respective changes in each generation at making people come in parents for the first time or whatever might be going on at those respective points, it's going to ask you different questions. But then if you sat with maybe a 20-year-old in their first job and they're coming out with either loads of student debt or haven't even gone to university and are trying to make money for the first time and all the challenges they have, I would argue that that hunger is where it's ever been.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Yeah, I think it's probably more of a remodelling of what the idea that success ultimately looks like for the for the and obviously I'm I'm not being their spokesperson here, but I think it's one of those things that I agree with you, ambition hasn't gone. Like it certainly is alive and well, and I think we should encourage it wherever possible. But I think what is termed as being success, and the the pedestal of that is different in terms of I see much more want to have positive social impact, much more want to create something that is more actually sustainable. And the things that we're talking about right at the beginning of this conversation were actually you can get the best out of people without burning them into the ground, whereas those previous generations have failed at that because I think that we are seeing a financial implosion in the way that we have essentially recklessly gone after the generation of value and wealth, um, which has only benefited benefited a small cohort of people, and that has left us feeling more and more disillusioned. And then to the point about Gen A, we've got unfettered access to technology, social media, um, an infinite amount of information before we knew what really that came with and the consequences of it, you know, it was just something that was great to give kids access to, and now through Jonathan Haidt and the work that he's done and others, we're seeing actually, you know, that maybe wasn't the right thing to give people. So you're seeing some of those things you touched on, you know, there isn't that lack of there is that little bit of a lack of resilience in some regards because again, it's the survivor bias you're told.

SPEAKER_03 24:32

Well, it's 30% lower in under 30s.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:35

That's not their fault. They've grown up in an environment, luckily for them, and I'm talking about in developed countries here, where it has never been as easy to be alive. So why would you learn a critical survival trait in a world that is instantly available to you?

SPEAKER_02 24:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:51

And then generations are then quick to judge them or label them like they are lacking in some form of ambition or ambit ability where no, they just have a key skill that they have not let yet learnt. And who do they learn that from? The older generations. Yeah. It's our responsibility to do that. And you're right, in terms of what's motivated people, because if you can look at the workplace data for this, and we know that 83% of people now will use work, consider work-life balance as a deal breaker. In the last year alone, we've seen a 10% increase in individuals not taking a job because they didn't believe that the organization's values aligned with them as individual values. And this doesn't mean that everyone has to go and be a purpose-driven, mission-driven organization. But it does mean people want to know what you are about? What is the mission you are on? What are you trying to serve? How am I part of that? How can I co-create and how can I make an impact? Why is it important and why am I important to it? If you can't answer that as an organization or as a society, people aren't interested. Because the world is too big now and too available now for people to settle for anything less than they think they deserve or can align to or can attach to.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Well, I think that's part of the new salary sacrifice piece, right? People are actively sacrificing salary to work for a company that they are very clear about their values, they're very clear about the mission, they're very clear about the fact that we're not going to have too much intrusion in your um in your personal life and set unreasonable expectations. That's something that we're definitely seeing where people are making those conscious decisions to maybe get less of a salary but have more of a balance.

SPEAKER_03 26:41

And that's not to say salary is not important. It absolutely is. People need fair wages, fair pay, good pay, pay they deserve for the work they are doing. I mean, and if you try and do anything otherwise, it's like why we're seeing this huge management leadership gap now. Because the majority of Gen Z do not want to be managers or leaders because they believe they are underpaid, overworked, and overstressed.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

So, on the stress point, this is something that I wanted to ask you as well with what you're seeing. It's stress awareness month this month. You've already touched on it, and no podcast is complete without the topic of AI. Oracle's just laid off 30,000 of their staff to make budget available for server farms.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

How do we address this problem of ambient stress and anxiety when at a time where everyone is feeling like their job might be on the line because companies are making cuts to make way for computers to do their jobs when actually what I'm personally seeing the computers aren't even ready to make that? I would never sacrifice human capital and the creativity that comes with for a bot. It can help do a job quicker, it's a calculator, but it's not a replacement. How are you seeing this kind of like with the organizations that you're working with? Obviously, I'm not putting you on too hot a footing here because I know that you work with some pretty big boys in companies and whatnot.

SPEAKER_03 28:11

So that you're right. There is a lot of fear, there is a lot of anxiety, there's a lot of scary headlines. It doesn't help when you have the likes of Musk. What did he give himself? A one trillion dollar dividend to bring out how many robots in the next few years? I think it was like a million robots humanoids.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

I'm not quite sure on the exact numbers, but it's the largest dividend, obviously, in history.

SPEAKER_03 28:35

And that was as he in his words to motivate him to bring out these robots that effectively are going to replace people. And if we want to be really honest about this and not wrap this up in cotton wool, which I think is important without being depressing, because I'll come on to the opportunity as well. But ultimately, the problem we have at the moment is we're in an arms race where the most intelligent, most powerful people in the world want to be the first one to produce this general general AI in the first, effectively, in very layman's terms, self-thinking, self-intelligent form of artificial intelligence. The issue with that is when that does arise, the complexities that are associated with what that really means for humanity. Um and that that is is scary. And I think actually it would be a lot scarier if people really even understood what it meant. I think a lot of people turn a blind eye to it or don't even really understand the gravity of the situation, which is no bad thing. Now, unfortunately, I don't believe you're going to stop that race.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

No.

SPEAKER_03 29:58

But ultimately, in the same breath, without getting to Illuminati about this, you could argue that the world is already controlled by about six families. And so this actually is nothing new. The only problem with this is the rate at which change is going to occur and what could then be the products of this happening. If we draw it back into what does that mean now in society, in the workplace, yes, there's a lot of a lot of automation going on. We know it's harder than ever for people to get their sort of first foot in the door. Entry-level jobs are pretty much being eliminated in so many areas. We're even seeing, not with the companies I work with, I will add that, but you know, we're seeing big HR people leaders openly talk and speak out about how they're making thousands of people redundant through streamlining their HR services and their HR processes and automation. And so they're talking about their own teams and then the wider company, and almost in a way where they're like, listen, this is how you do it. We think we have really achieved something here. So the fear that creates because these are the people that individuals associate with the sense of security in the workplace. So it is a really, really anxiety-provoking time for many. There is going to be a lot of change that occurs. I believe the positive is there are a lot of leaders that do actually care. We saw at Davos this year that um they actually openly called out for they they called it a societal rupture. And they said that the society societal rupture is occurring from AI and automation, and actually they called on the leaders to, and they said it's never been so important to invest in your humans and to put trust back at the center of everything. And that's exponentially important because I think if we do have businesses and leaders who are putting tr that's putting trust back at the forefront of conversations, it is actually going to positively benefit what the workplace looks like because by no means are is the workplace in a good position anyway.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 32:32

Global engagement's at 21%. In Europe it's 13%, in the UK it's closer than to 10%. Presenteeism is outweighing tenfold absenteeism. So absenteeism being people physically absent, presenteism, people who are physically present but cognitively depleted, which is equating for billions, if not trillions, each year at this point in the global economy. So the workplace is already a complete mess. People are unfulfilled, they lack purpose, they lack meaning, they lack connection. So it's not like AI is gonna come and then suddenly completely implode this perfect picture we have. Like AI is just further damaging something that is already really broken for most anyway. And so actually, is AI gonna shine the spotlight finally into the workplace where leaders say, oh, okay, actually I should probably do something about this. Yeah. What does trust look like? What does psychological safety look like? What does communication look like here? What does healthy conflict look like here? All of these fundamentals to a high-performing, optimized, innovative workplace that for the vast majority right now does not exist.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Yeah. You know, obviously there's ambition, there's the want to do something, but it's so romanticized in terms of what it actually means. Like, if I was to tell, like, if someone to ask me what is it really like, like, warts and all, I'd kind of be, you'd have to say, like, sit down. I'm gonna give you the real you really want to know. It's going to involve, unfortunately, a lot more stress than you ever thought it was possible to navigate. You're going to be balancing spreadsheets, you're going to be looking at admin, you're going to be looking at all number of things that you never thought you'd have to worry on top of focusing on having the vision to build the business. Because in those early days, especially, you don't have the skills or the luxury of having a budget. You know, when we spoke about going up to the top of the pyramid, I can't build that team if I don't have the bandwidth or the runway to do it. So that's why, you know, when it comes down to the VC investment side of things, when I'm trying to get VC investment, or if I'm trying to build something, yes, I get the runway to build the team around me, but then I also give away my own agency because I'm going to have other people that are telling me how to build the product that I want to build. And I identified a need, I identified a problem, I came up with a solution to that, and then you're going to have some guy, probably some middle-aged white dude in a suit, tell me how to do my job and how to build a product for a cohort of people that he has no possibility to understand. Are you insane? Like, and I guess this is actually something that I think we should talk about. So that's actually a really that is a point I want to ask you about because you have gone through this journey of raising, you've gone through this, you've sat in these rooms and you've had these conversations. How do you navigate that when you have someone across the table from you who clearly probably doesn't have the faintest idea what you're trying to achieve, the why and the wherefore and the vision that you have? How do you bring them on that journey? How do you deal with the confrontation and the negativity that they bring to that in terms of like the patronizing? Let's just call it patronizing and condescension at best, outright sexism in some cases, which I'm certain you probably have had the misfortune of being on the receiving end of. How do you navigate that and stay positive and stay persistent? And like what is like what does that entail? Like on a on a on a on like a personal level, the toll that that takes where you actually have to to kind of navigate that.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

It's really interesting. And again, I'm not a unicorn founder, I don't have decades of experience. I've built successful six-figure companies. But this is my first actual like tech company, if you will. So it's my first time doing raising for a business and building a company in this capacity. I was in that 2% of women that raised VC funds in 2023. And I don't know what sort of backlash this will get, but I've never really felt like I um what's the best way to put it? I've never really felt like I'm at a disadvantage, although the statistics would say the complete opposite. And I guess that's because of the relentless optimism I have as an individual. I believe that you need to have as a founder. You almost have to have this naive naivety around what you're doing, and naivety in the belief of it, and this unbridled belief that it is going to work, because as soon as you do not have that, everything else goes wrong. And so then I guess that almost feeds into my rose-tinted glasses that I don't feel like I've been on the receiving end of sexism, although I most likely have. And I can speak about many, many examples in my early career, and especially in my career in tech, I could reel them off like the back of my hand of experiences that I should never ever have experienced. Um things that make me feel sick to my stomach that I had to, and it was so normalized to. It was miserable. People speak about peaks and troughs, it was a trough of despair. It was a I want to quit every single day. This hurts, this is uncomfortable, this is scary, this is unknown. But again, I believe in what I'm doing, so I'm not going to stop. And for me, it really took its impact and its toll on my mental health towards the end of last year, really. And I think it was rejection is a natural part of being a business owner. Yes. You are going to get constantly rejected, you are going to get constantly criticized, you are going to constantly be told you should do this instead, or you should do that, or have you thought about this? And if you are not really, really, really aware of the inputs of your environment, that's going to go straight into your subconscious. Well, it went into my subconscious, and eventually it turned into I am not enough, I am not good enough, I am not worthy, I am a failure, I should be different. And I didn't even realise that had happened until it was too late. And that's like when we spoke about this intertwining of your self-worth and your business success. And again, not just founders, but any high performers, if you attribute your own self-worth to how well your company or your quarter or your sales targets are going or not going, you are setting yourself up for failure.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:56

Because these are two very, very different things. And as soon as you can separate those things and tying into then, okay, as founders of high performers, how do you rest? How do you recover? How do you sit in that room with the VC and have the conversation you want to have? When do you know to let go of control? When do you know when to hold control? You have to be able to detach from the ego. You have to always be thinking about what is the outcome I am trying to achieve, what is the fastest, most effective way of getting there, and detaching your self-worth from that journey because if you cannot do that, you won't make the right decisions.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

I love that answer so much, and I'm really appreciative of the honesty that you have around that answer in the sense that your optimism, the way that you approach the situation, the way that you've kind of like dealt with it in the sense of like, I don't even see it. Like that is such a powerful way to kind of approach it, to see, and then also in certain circumstances, take the criticism or the negative comments and actually see them as okay, well, what positive can I take from this? Is there a grain of truth in one of those negative things? Something that I can work on, something that I can reframe for that, and or just get really good at ignoring it.

SPEAKER_03 42:19

Yeah. Everyone has an opinion.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

Of course.

SPEAKER_03 42:21

And everyone has an opinion, usually when they would have no ability to do what you're doing or take the risks that you're taking. So be very careful. Who are you listening to? The opinions.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

Well, it's like you don't go to marriage advice from a person who's been divorced three times. Exactly. Exactly. What can I ask that question?

SPEAKER_03 42:39

And if they haven't been in your shoes, why are you listening?

SPEAKER_01 42:42

100%.

SPEAKER_03 42:43

And I really also think we take it all a little bit too seriously. I really do. It's a company. How many companies have there been? How many companies are there going to be? And so also it's almost this reminder that I try to give to myself of our significant insignificance. Yes, we are the most beautiful, amazing, without going too woo-hoo here, which I love to do sometimes. Like we are complete miracles exactly as we are, and we're having this incredible human experience for however many decades we may be so lucky to have, but we are also so one of so so many, and we put a complete spotlight on our lives. But really, like, is this a real? I ask myself every day, is this a real problem? Because what was a real problem? My dad dying. What was real pain? Having to experience that, losing him, rebuilding myself, getting myself off that hospital bed. That was real pain. Losing a deal, even losing a company, of course it's not enjoyable. Of course, it's not what we want. But actually, it is not the end of the world. You are worthy just as you are. Will learn if you so want to, you will go again. Like this will be either a success or a learning, and it sounds so cliche, but I think as again, as soon as we can start to detach and really put a perspective of like if this is my life and this is a dot, how big is that dot, really, from the moment I took my first breath to the moment I take my last? And for me, it then creates more fun around it, it creates more lightness around it. That I don't I don't ignore the importance of it and I take it really seriously, but I also try and put that perspective on it of when I'm having those really bad days. Actually, my platform's gone down for half an hour. Great. People realise I have a platform people are using, so it's gone down. I remember the first time Human Arrest went down. I was so happy, the team thought I'd lost my marbles, and everyone's like, Are you okay? And I was like, We've got a platform that's gone down, and people have noticed it. Like it's how you they perceive these things that are really going to make the process of what you are doing enjoyable or blooming miserable, and I know which one I would rather. And so I wake up every day and I almost treat it like a game of snakes and ladders. Yeah, so I roll the dice, and sometimes I hit a ladder. Brilliant, win, let's everything go, and sometimes I hit a snake, and we're going back 10 steps and we're learning, but it doesn't matter because the next day we're gonna wake up and we're gonna roll that dice again.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

Yeah. I think that's a beautiful place to end this one. If people want to find out more, where should they go? Where can they find you? How can they reach you?

SPEAKER_03 45:36

Um, humanous.co.uk is our website, Bianco, Rigo, E Dr, I G O, um, LinkedIn. They're probably, yeah, the best the best spots for us available for all things wellness.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Amazing.