Special Guest: Tony Miltenberger

Ever wondered how an ancient concept like servant leadership can revolutionize modern-day management? Tony Miltenberger of Follow to Lead Coaching joins me to illuminate the transformative effect of leading by serving, a principle that finds its roots in the teachings of Jesus. We venture into the heart of vulnerability, identity, and the service-oriented framework that defines authentic leadership. By embracing the paradox of leading through following, Tony elucidates how we can harness our personal wounds to steer our leadership journey towards greater effectiveness and authenticity.

Prepare to shift your perspective on wisdom and emotional intelligence in leadership as we navigate through the correlation between emotional intensity and decision-making. Together with Tony, we unveil the emotional intensity scale, a tool crucial for maintaining equilibrium amidst the storms of leadership. We dissect how past scars can cloud judgment and how mastering these experiences can lead to clarity and compassion in guiding others. This episode is a treasure trove of insights for anyone looking to elevate their leadership abilities and foster a healing impact on their team, with resources like the Reclamation Podcast and coaching to support your growth. Join us to uncover the profound effects a healed leader can have on their community and themselves.

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Order your copy of Jon's book at RedefineYourServantLeadership.com, and don't forget to utilize the additional resources, or purchase access to the Workbook and Coaching Videos.

Send your Leadership and Business questions to Jon at podcast@leadwell.com.

For more information visit https://leadwell.com

The Leadwell Podcast gives mission-driven leaders principled and practical advice to do just that, lead well.

In each episode, your host Jon Kidwell, interviews leaders with great stories, to share strategies that help leaders navigate complex, confusing, and often down-right challenging leadership, personal growth, business, and workplace culture situations.

Jon is a nonprofit executive turned coach, speaker, author, and CEO of a leadership development company. In working with nonprofits and businesses, big and small, he realized the unique challenges leaders face when they are committed to keeping the mission and people the top priority. Those leaders’ commitment to their principles and the people they lead, plus seeing the need for more leaders who strive to do the right thing, the right way, for the right reasons, is what inspired Jon to start a leadership development company dedicated to the success of mission-driven leaders and their organiza...

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:09

Welcome to the Lead Well podcast, where we give mission driven leaders principle and practical advice so that you can do just that Lead well. I'm your host, john Kidwell, but I'm not going to be doing a lot of the episode today. I get to ask some questions. We have a very special guest, tony Mildenberger, who is here with us today from follow to lead coaching. Let's jump right in to the interview in time with Tony. Hey, tony, thank you for being with us today.

Speaker 2 0:34

John, thank you so much. It's an incredible honor to be here. I love your work and the way you're helping leaders and equipping them. It's good stuff, man, thank you.

Speaker 1 0:44

So, as I'm preparing for this, what I realized is that you, tony, are an author. You're married to your high school sweetheart, you have three amazing kids, you live in the Midwest, and while I don't live in the Midwest anymore, I basically thought I'm going to be talking to myself today.

Speaker 2 1:02

Our stories do parallel each other very well.

Speaker 1 1:05

They do, they do, except for. You are also a veteran, and I just want to say thank you for your service, tony.

Speaker 2 1:11

It's my pleasure, thank you.

Speaker 1 1:13

So you have follow to lead coaching, where you work with folks, especially coaching folks to follow Jesus and lead boldly, and this name follow to lead is an interesting thing. Not everybody might get that but in a culture where we don't always follow when we lead, can you tell us a little bit about the play on that name and where that comes from?

Speaker 2 1:36

Yeah, it's really rooted out of scripture right. And in the Gospel of John, in the 13th chapter, there's a really interesting thing. As I've studied leaders all over the world, and the one that has resonated with me just over and over again is seeing the life of Jesus and how he led a movement that sustained even when he was gone. And in John 13, there's a really interesting thing where a story about Jesus washing the disciples feet. Now, the disciples are the people that were his closest followers. So in order to scale his organization, he invested heavily in a very small group of people and then he invested in such a way where he began to serve them. In a sense, he was a follower right.

Speaker 2 2:22

And so in John 13, there's a part of the text that says knowing that he was from God and returning to God. So he got up from the table, he removed his outer tunic and he began to wash the disciples feet. And what's interesting and I think so many people miss it is that word so and I would circle it in my Bible if I were you, or underline it if you're someone who reads the scriptures like that, I would say that that so piece is a signifier of his identity, knowing who he was, where he was from and what he was here to do. He got up, he became vulnerable, intimate and he served his closest followers, and so I think there's a model there that's worth repeating that if we really want to be a great leader, we have to learn how to serve and be a great follower.

Speaker 1 3:20

And that is awesome. Tony, thank you for sharing that, and you also said some really interesting things around something that you're working on and spending a lot of time focusing on. And while Jesus wasn't broken, you said he knew who he was, his identity, and then he was intimate, he was vulnerable and served out of that right, and you've been doing some work around working with leaders on their woundedness, their brokenness. Tell us a little bit more about that and what that means.

Speaker 2 3:54

It's really interesting, right, john? Like in my work, I've probably done counseling or coaching with hundreds, if not thousands, of different leaders, and one of the things I've noticed is that every person that I've counseled has been broken in some way. And if you talk about brokenness, there's a theological term for it, called the epistemic consequence of sin. But psychologically it's just broken people, right? And that's really what it boils down to is that almost every human without fail I actually haven't met one yet that's why I use the word almost, just in case someone's out there has an experience between the ages of four and 12 that becomes a defining moment in their life.

Speaker 2 4:39

Now, typically, that brokenness is not anyone's malicious intent, right? So to be clear, I'm not talking about trauma, I'm talking about just a way that you grew up, a way that you saw the world kind of the lens, and here's where it gets interesting. That lens follows us for the rest of our lives, and anytime someone bumps up against that wound, it causes an emotional spike, right? And so one of the ways that you can kind of begin to assess what your wounding is is ask yourself when was I last spiked on a scale from one to 10 above a six. So on an emotional intensity scale, anytime you're spiked above a six, it's almost always more about you than it is the other person. Now here's what's wild that spike, that emotional intensity spike. It can be good or bad. So let me give you a couple of examples to put some handles on it. My son is a senior and he's a linebacker in Ohio, which happens to have the best football in the United States.

Speaker 1 5:50

Arguably I have to stand up for my state, but arguably continue. Sorry to catch you off-tone it.

Speaker 2 5:55

It was a jab at Texas. Okay, so if he picks six, takes one to the house, scores a touchdown and I go full-blown Midwestern dad, I'm basically losing my mind on the sidelines. The question that I really have to wrestle with is my excitement really about him, or is it really about the way that this moment makes me look and feel and I would argue that the emotional intensity above a six really makes it more about me than it does about him? So that's in a positive way. Now, in a negative way, right through Ohio and you grew up in Michigan, so you know I-75 is the major interstate that goes north to south If I'm driving on 75 and somebody cuts me off and I give them the international sign of peace and I begin to use a whole bunch of words that don't necessarily represent my values, which I've been known to do full disclosure then is it really about that person who cut me off or is it about the way that I feel in that moment?

Speaker 2 7:02

And so I would suggest that what happens is they bump up against your wound. Now here's what's. Crazy, leader, I know you're listening, you're thinking okay, I wanna know what my wound is. Well, this is how I believe God works in our lives is that your greatest gift is on the other side of your wound. Your greatest gift is on the other side of your wound. John, are you open to be a little vulnerable with me today? I?

Speaker 1 7:31

am, I am, let's go there, tony.

Speaker 2 7:33

What would you say? That your greatest gift is Teaching, teaching right. Specifically. What about teaching? What about teaching makes you feel so fulfilled?

Speaker 1 7:47

I think being able to do a couple of things, but one is give somebody information that they can have to change their life. I think that teaching, as well as like going on a journey with someone for where they want to go, is a really exciting piece, and I would be lying if I didn't say I kinda like being up in front of people and being able to put on a little bit of a show.

Speaker 2 8:20

So that is an incredible gift and I appreciate the honesty there. That's good. That's not uncommon, as a matter of fact, that's very common when it comes to teachers, and so I would suggest and you and I haven't talked about this, we didn't do any pre-work or anything like that but I would suggest that your biggest wound is probably those moments in life where you don't feel seen.

Speaker 1 8:46

Yeah, that's a great read that I very much desire. Affirmation, a desire, validation to be able to be heard. Tony, and I haven't prepped on this, but you all can tell some of this work has probably been done before in different circles. And so affirmation, validation, wanting to be seen, wanting to be recognized If left unchecked, also seeking the spotlight instead of just accepting and being in the spotlight right. So 100%, it makes total sense, tony.

Speaker 2 9:22

Right, and so then probably I'm gonna guess somewhere between the ages of four and 12, by no fault of your parents or the environment that you were in, there was a season in your life where you didn't feel seen or hurt.

Speaker 1 9:36

Yeah, I can't think of that one off the top of my head. I can think of other ones right that I've talked about, because we're huge fans of counseling and in kind of group coaching and we do that not counseling but group coaching and encourage leaders all the time. That you should have a really good counselor, and I can't think of one between the ages of four and 12, but I can absolutely think of times where I've not felt seen or validated or affirmed and I might have to dig around a little bit to see which piece of it is there in between four and 12.

Speaker 2 10:13

It would be interesting. So typically, typically if it's not clear, it could be the way that where are you in the birth order?

Speaker 1 10:22

Oh, I'm number one.

Speaker 2 10:23

Okay, right, so yeah.

Speaker 1 10:27

No pride or anything in and around that one.

Speaker 2 10:30

Well, so it's interesting, right, Because it's you know, here's the thing about this kind of work is that it's deeply connected to how we are done in our family, right? So tell me about your other brothers and sisters.

Speaker 1 10:43

I have a younger brother who's four-ish years younger than I am, and it's just the two of us, with mom and dad.

Speaker 2 10:52

So that's really interesting right Now. I would wonder if, at the age of four, when you first had four years with your parents all to yourselves, if all of a sudden, by no fault of anyone, a younger brother comes on the scene, you're already pretty well developed into your life rhythm and then now the rest of your young adulthood is kind of circling around taking care of your brother, needing to be there for him, doing things for him. As the oldest right, you can be kind of and again, all speculation here. We're just doing this on the fly, right but I would wonder if there isn't something there about the idea that at four years old your parents brought someone else into your world and that gap is the basis of the wound.

Speaker 1 11:46

Maybe and I'm thinking away from this, tony is I get to go to my brother and say I'm his brother, absolutely.

Wisdom, Emotional Intensity, and Effective Leadership

Speaker 1 11:53

Yeah, no, I'm totally, I'm totally kidding, but I can absolutely see where there might be that right and, as we said, all speculation and no doubt some of that plays in there. I've always said I'm a huge fan of its nature and nurture, that we get to play with both of those, and so we have leaders that are listening, that are no doubt starting to potentially identify with the same one that I just said, kind of on the validation, the scene affirmed. Maybe there's this completely different. What do we start to do now, right, once we know? What do we start to do, since we know that we can change and be aware of it and get back to using that strength as an absolute strength? How do we do that, tony?

Speaker 2 12:42

That's a great question, and what I would say is that it really starts and ends with the emotional intensity scale. I think leaders most often make big mistakes when they make a decision based off an emotional reaction, and so anytime you're above a six is when I would encourage you to step back, to evaluate and to kind of take a moment to really examine your feelings. Right, ask the question what am I feeling? Why am I feeling it? When have I felt this way before? Right? So what am I feeling? Why am I feeling it? When have I felt this way before? Because what we have to do is really get to a place where we're not making decisions out of our wounds, and so when we're wounded and that emotional intensity goes through the charts, it's when you're most likely to make a bad decision.

Speaker 2 13:34

I come from a recovery background. I've got 10 years sober and we always say hungry, angry, lonely, tired, thank you, thank you. Hungry, angry, lonely, tired is when you're most likely to make a bad decision, because it messes with your emotional intensity. Now, what I know a lot of leaders do, right, what I have done myself is I'll get a report with our KPIs or whatever it is we're working on, and then I'll immediately assume responsibility for that, and so, in an emotional state, I'll overreact, right, instead of taking the time to ask the question. Is this an you know? What is this emotional response really about? Why am I feeling this way? When have I felt it before? What is this all about? Kind of investigating the emotional intensity. Bring the scale down so I can respond intelligently with kind of better parameters on how we can make this better. I actually believe that wisdom at its core is becoming so familiar with our wounds that they no longer have the authority to make decisions in our lives.

Speaker 1 14:42

Would you say that again? That was really good, Tony.

Speaker 2 14:44

Wisdom at our core is becoming so familiar with our wounds that they no longer have authority to make decisions in our lives. And that's what I want for me and, honestly, that's what I want for every leader, whether I'm working with them or somebody else's. If we could just get a bunch of level headed people in a room, I think great things can happen. And and acknowledging you know, we bring our whole soul to work with us, we bring everything to work with us, and so, as a leader, I want to be able to see the wounds and the brokenness of my people, see the gifts of my people and give them space to have those feelings in the midst of the work day and say, ok, hey, go, go, have your feeling right, and then let's talk about what the next best thing is.

Speaker 1 15:34

Oh great, what a transition from what many of us have probably heard or heard and felt and experienced and probably done ourselves with the international sign of peace and other things. Hurt people, hurt people, yeah, and what I hear you saying is healed people have the power to heal people, help people, lead people for whatever is needed in the moment and to be able to do that extremely well.

Speaker 2 16:02

Yeah, it's really powerful, thank you. Thank you, it's been a work over the last couple of years that has just continued to see some lasting effects in the people that I have the privilege to lead and work with.

Speaker 1 16:18

Amazing. And Tony, you have a podcast, the reclamation podcast, and the website is follow to lead coaching. Where and how can we specifically engage with you to get more on this from you? Where would you send us, tony?

Speaker 2 16:34

Yeah, I would say follow the lead, follow the number two lead coachingcom is a great place to start. It's got all of my information there. If you are somebody who, like me, likes to get outcomes, I have a quiz. If you go backslash quiz, there's a quiz available for you to kind of judge where you are in your what I call your walk of integrity, how you're integrating your faith and your values with your walk right, and that's kind of one of the things that we really love to help leaders with is to live out a fully integrated or a life of integrity. And so I'm also on Instagram, at TWMilt, on LinkedIn under the same name, at TWMilt. It's, I'm embarrassingly easy to find.

Excitement About Upcoming Podcast Episode

Speaker 1 17:17

I love it and I hope you all go find him at Instagram. I already follow him and get a bunch of his great videos as soon as they come and check him out at follow letter number two lead coachingcom. We'll put all the links in the show notes. Tony, I have been blessed by today and I am significantly more aware of some of the things that are going to trip me up as a leader because of how I kind of grew up, and so I also have a very, very clear way to gauge that emotional intensity level. And then some questions right, what's going on? Why? When have I felt this way before? To one of the ones that's my favorite questions is okay, so I know all these things, what is required of me right now, and you have given us a path to be able to do that and to show up and to lead Well, thank you so much, tony, for being here and for giving us all of that today. It's been wonderful.

Speaker 2 18:16

Thank you, john, and I'm so excited to have you on the podcast.

Speaker 1 18:20

You'll be on my podcast.

Speaker 2 18:22

That's right. I'm so excited about that. So if you want to hear more from John, make sure you find them on my podcast as well, so we can dive in more into his story.

Speaker 1 18:34

That's right, and you can see how Tony introduces me and if we go back into the time warp and all of the same things that we have extremely similar in our lives. So, y'all, it has been wonderful. Thanks for joining Tony and I talking about leadership today, and we wish you the best. Be well, lead on and God bless.