Closing the Trust Gap - w. Cory Scheer

Discover the truth about trust within your organization and how it might be holding you back. Our guest, Cory Scheer, founder and CEO of TrustCentric Consulting, joins us to share groundbreaking insights from his book "Closing the Trust Gap." He reveals the jarring reality that 51% of frontline employees do not trust their leaders and the profound impact this has on operational efficiency, employee retention, productivity, and advocacy. You’ll learn why many organizations are like aircraft flying with one engine out and how character and competence are essential for building trust.

Cory helps us navigate the complex landscape of trust perception, where a staggering 31% gap exists between how leaders perceive their trustworthiness versus their employees’ views. We explore the emotional barriers that prevent leaders from acknowledging and addressing trust issues, such as shame and embarrassment. Cory also offers a ray of hope, showing how new leaders or those in new leadership seasons can seize the opportunity for a cultural reset and foster a healthier work environment through honest assessments and courageous actions.

Lastly, Cory introduces the concept of the "trust proposition," a critical framework for integrating trust and value propositions to achieve customer loyalty and organizational success. He emphasizes actionable strategies for leaders to enhance trust, focusing on competency and care. By addressing real problems within teams and creating a common language and commitment around trust, organizations can significantly improve creativity, engagement, and overall workplace culture. Tune in to transform your understanding of trust and discover how to build a thriving, trustworthy organization.

Connect with Cory:

Cory Scheer | LinkedIn
Cory Scheer | Email
TrustCentric Consulting | Website
Closing the Trust Gap | Book

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For more information visit https://leadwell.com

The Leadwell Podcast gives mission-driven leaders principled and practical advice to do just that, lead well.

In each episode, your host Jon Kidwell, interviews leaders with great stories, to share strategies that help leaders navigate complex, confusing, and often down-right challenging leadership, personal growth, business, and workplace culture situations.

Jon is a nonprofit executive turned coach, speaker, author, and CEO of a leadership development company. In working with nonprofits and businesses, big and small, he realized the unique challenges leaders face when they are committed to keeping the mission and people the top priority. Those leaders’ commitment to their principles and the people they lead, plus seeing the need for more leaders who strive to do the right thing, the right way, for the right reasons, is what inspired Jon to start a leadership development company dedicated to the success of mission-driven leaders and their organiza...

Transcript

Closing the Trust Gap in Organizations

Jon Kidwell 0:00

How many people on your team trust their leader. You might be surprised to know that 51% of employees do not trust their leader Over half and it is diminishing. It's crumbling, and Corey's research data shows it. Today's guest, corey Shear, is a researcher. He is founder and CEO of Trustcentric, a consultancy that helps organizations close the trust gap. That's the name of his book, closing the Trust Gap, and he is here today to talk about trust, why it's going apart, what we can do about it and how we, as leaders, can help our teams, our people, our organizations build trust, increase the value in the organization and in the lives of the people we serve, and do it well. Let's dive in with Corey right now. Corey Shearer, my friend, thank you so much for joining us on the Leadwell Podcast.

Cory Scheer 0:57

Thank you, John. It's great to be with you today. Really, I'm excited and honored to be part of the show.

Jon Kidwell 1:03

Well, since I've met you, I have trusted you. There's something about it that I just trust. I mean, what is that, Corey? Do you get that often?

Cory Scheer 1:14

Well, the more I talk about trust, the more I'm finding people want to talk about trust with me and that's really really cool and very fulfilling and rewarding and it gives me continued affirmation of the work that I get to do every day with clients. So, yes, I love that.

Jon Kidwell 1:33

Yeah, I mean just from me to you, to everybody listening. I think that there's a good deal of character and competence that also come with that, and that's what we're diving into today is really closing this trust gap. And for those that don't know that haven't read the book, but they need to go read the book it's a phenomenal book.

Cory Scheer 1:58

What is the trust gap, corey? Well, I probably should have made the gap word plural, but I thought we would just focus with one. I mean, the trust gap actually contains a lot of potential gaps and a few that really stand out. The number one gap is that where an organization could be compared to where they currently are, there is a gap, and that is there's no organization that has fully arrived. No-transcript for the gaps to be closed. But more specifically, there were a couple of research items from. I co-authored a national study with a gentleman by the name of Kurt Bartolich who runs a company called Brand Certain and he invited me to talk about in my questions on the survey. He wanted me to talk about the employee leader trust gap specifically and a couple of the data points that came back that were very alarming. The first one was 51% of frontline employees don't have a high level of trust for their leaders. So that's a huge trust gap Over half right?

Jon Kidwell 3:25

I heard you say 51% 51%.

Cory Scheer 3:28

So I mean, imagine if you have, you know, if you have 500 employees, imagine 250 of them showing up every day not having a high level of trust for their leaders. I call that the half-life of distrust. And just the operational efficiency when you take off from a runway. And just the operational efficiency when you take off from a runway, and if one of your engines were to go out, what would the pilot do? There would be an emergency landing. Yet on average across all industries that we evaluated, that's exactly how companies are operating. They're operating with one engine.

Cory Scheer 4:00

And then they wonder why we have things like poor retention of employees or poor productivity, or poor advocacy, or you know, even to the point where the people that we surveyed, they admitted that just people are lazier and they're not going to work as hard when they don't trust their leaders.

Building Trust in Leadership and Teams

Cory Scheer 4:29

So the effects of this are very significant.

Cory Scheer 4:30

And then the second gap in trust that we saw from the data that was really what inspired me to write the book was we found that leaders typically have a much higher perception of trustworthiness of them than employees actually have of them.

Cory Scheer 4:41

And so this interesting gap where you may ask a CEO how much do your employees trust you and they may say eight out of 10. And then you go ask the frontline employees or the individual contributors and they say it's more like four out of 10 or five out of 10. So we dimensionalize that gap and the gap in the perception of trust between leaders and frontline employees is 31% on average. And so when you dimensionalize this, when you can look at this and you can measure it, the good part is is that, although it's difficult to look at initially, it becomes very, very helpful and then, ultimately, it can become hopeful. If you are willing and if you have the courage to do something about it, if you choose to excuse the data or do nothing about the data, about that reality, then you will continue to get the results that you are currently experiencing.

Jon Kidwell 5:33

I'm curious because you put that out there, it's so clear, and I know there's a story in the book, but maybe there's another story. And I know there's a story in the book, but maybe there's another story. Why wouldn't I want to do that, like if if I, john, I'm sitting there and you, corey, take this turn, we do the whole organization and all of a sudden it's like, oh my goodness, I thought I was a trustworthy guy. I thought that we operated with integrity, I thought that we did this. I gave myself a nine out of 10 because I am perfect and I come back and everybody else says four out of 10. Why wouldn't I immediately try to rectify this?

Cory Scheer 6:11

I I have I've received a lot of different responses to that. Um, I'll answer it, though, for myself, because I've been there and I've worked with toxic employees that I cannot figure out how to wrap my brain around what the dynamic was occurring in that team dynamic or that workplace dynamic, and, as the leader of that team, the core emotion that I experienced and I know that we all experience things differently, but the core emotion that I was experiencing was shame, because if I would have admitted because I had been with that team now for a couple of years, so if I would have admitted that we had this significant trust gap that needed to be addressed, that would have been me saying I have ownership in this, I need to take responsibility, and for me personally, there was a little bit of shame there and embarrassment, and I think that that is a that's a reality that the longer you are with a team, the longer you are with an organization, the harder it is to admit that something might be wrong as a result of either your direct leadership or perhaps a lack of addressing certain things that needed to be addressed, maybe months or years ago. I think that there's a real dynamic. Interestingly, though, I think that there's an opportunity where I see from new leaders who engage with us. They're new, they don't have a lot of things that they're bringing into the conversation, so they're trying to assess and get as clear of a picture as possible. So when people ask me, who do I typically work with, I say I work with two types of clients, typically Number one leaders who are beginning a new season of leadership, whether they're brand new to that position or they're brand new to that company or whatever the case may be.

Cory Scheer 8:01

So they're beginning a new season or something is going on within their organization where they know that they've got to make the conscious decision to begin again. And that's where, even if you've been there five years, seven years, 10 years, but there are other indicators or warning lights going on all over the place saying you have to reset, you've got to begin again. That's the opportunity for an existing leader to say we need to reset, you've got to begin again. That's the opportunity for an existing leader to say we need to reset. And when you are willing to reset now, you know that you've got to do a full assessment of what's actually going on within our workplace culture. And once you make that declaration, it's amazing how quickly you can actually move to productive, generative, future looking conversations to improve your overall workplace culture, health, and that's when things get very, very exciting and hopeful.

Closing the Trust Gap

Jon Kidwell 8:51

Yeah, I mean anytime we're taking that step right and at least to me sitting here thinking about it, it feels as though if every single day, if every single week, the people around me myself, my organization are all moving towards a place where we trust each other more, where we're having better dialogue, where it's healthy in terms of our relationship, the work we're doing, the results. That is going to be one of the most engaging times of work. You lay out a trust proposition in the book. Can you explain the trust proposition to everybody that's listening so we kind of know what are we talking about and in what direction are we moving?

Cory Scheer 9:30

Yeah, that's, it's one of them. It was actually the. What I was going to originally title the book was the trust proposition, but my wife and her wisdom and her discernment, she, we, were driving down the road.

Jon Kidwell 9:40

Everybody needs a good discerner.

Cory Scheer 9:48

Oh my goodness. And you know, we were driving West on I-70 and I had just had a conversation with my developmental editor for the book on the phone and she kind of said, or she after the conversation, she kind of looked at me and she said I wonder if you should call the book something different than the trust proposition. I was like but like you're, you know, you're questioning the title of my book, like it's my, my title. And she's like well, nobody knows what the trust proposition is, yet that's what you're, you're offering that as a solution to the real problem. And so I of course said well, now I'm very curious, what are your thoughts? And she said well, I think you should call it closing the trust gap. And as soon as she said it, john, I was like oh my gosh.

Jon Kidwell 10:27

And she had it as clear as what it is today.

Cory Scheer 10:30

Absolutely. And she said if I didn't know you and if I saw that book title on the bookshelf, I would buy that book, just because I've experienced trust gaps in different parts of my life, vocationally or whatever, and so I wouldn't want to know how do I close the trust gap? And within the book, the trust proposition is one of the ways that we do that, and the trust proposition is, of course, a play on words with the value proposition. The value proposition was a term identified 40 or 50 years ago by a business leader and he was basically articulating and defining this transaction that occurs in our mind as consumers or buyers, when we put forth our time or our money in order to buy something of value. In our perception, and what we're doing there is, we're taking action on the worth of something. So worth is a really critical part of value proposition. We assign what the worth of something. So worth is a really critical part of value proposition. We assign what the worth of something is because if it is not worth it to us, we will not buy it or we will not spend time pursuing it. So that value proposition is really critical, and I learned about value proposition and all of the dynamics in some of my educational training with my executive MBA, so I was familiar with that phrase.

Cory Scheer 11:46

But I then just had a different conversation with another leader when I was doing a lot of my doctoral work on trust and the relationship between trust and then value, and then value and loyalty, and how trust has to precede value creation and value creation has to precede loyalty for the consumer. That was a theoretical framework that I used some amazing researchers for my doctoral work and I used their framework in order to run my data through it. But the idea is well, if the value proposition is all about taking action on the worth of something and If the definition of trust is that trust is the firm belief in the truth of something, so in my mind I thought, well, what if we thought about a different type of a proposition? What if we talked about the trust proposition? And so the trust proposition is not taking action on the worth of something. The trust proposition is taking action on the truth of something, taking action on the truth of something. So to your earlier question.

Cory Scheer 12:49

One of the reasons why I think leaders and teams may have a difficult time elevating trust to its appropriate priority is because maybe they don't have a shared framework and understanding about what trust actually is, and then maybe their systems and their ethos and maybe their shared commitments are not pointed towards taking action. On the truth of things, maybe they're limiting their efforts by only taking action on the worth of something. So the advantage is that most companies are built in a way to where they're always about value proposition. How do we create more value for the consumer? But research says is that in order to maximize value proposition, you have to increase trust. So it's this combination of living out your trust proposition, living out your value proposition and those two things.

Cory Scheer 13:36

When you think of the companies that are, they're seemingly unstoppable it's because they have an incredible value proposition that is supported fully by an amazing trust proposition. So now the cool part about this whole thing is literally last week I got notification that we trademarked the trust proposition and it's now it's official. So that's been really cool just to continue to be very, very committed to that terminology and that kind of approach. And what it says is that trust does not have to remain ethereal or it doesn't have to remain kind of philosophical or theoretical, that it's something that it can actually action can be taken towards it if we are committed to the appropriate model and the priority of doing that in our day-to-day decisions as leaders and as teams.

Jon Kidwell 14:31

I'm holding up something here for those that are watching online, right, but you said these three circles, and it is trust precedes value and value precedes loyalty. And if I were to reflect back what I just heard, is that not only for our external value proposition as organizations, right? Whether we're mission-driven, not-for-profit, small business, big old corporation, whatever it is publicly traded, that value proposition of what we provide, a service that people want to engage with us for, is preceded by our external trust, like do they trust us? Right? And also, my brain heard man, your value proposition is a little bit of your external kind of trust measure, or people engaging with you because they value you and they trust you, but is the trust proposition a little bit of my? This must be true internal to then get the best of that external.

Building Trust Through Competency and Care

Cory Scheer 15:22

And it aligns with my version of the truth resonates with their version of the truth, and so, as a result of that, I believe in that, because our truths are similar. When we believe in something that is true and that aligns with our own truth, does that increase or decrease our value of them? It increases that, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. So then our decisions, our behaviors, are not just driven by is it worth it? Our decisions are informed by do we trust it? Yeah, yeah. So then our decisions, our behaviors, are not just driven by is it worth it? Our decisions are informed by do we trust it? And that is why, and so let's just kind of, let's make this very practical what is, what's the name of a brand or a company that you trust?

Jon Kidwell 16:03

You just trust them Okay, so they are running everything that we are doing this podcast on.

Cory Scheer 16:09

But if you were to go, I mean I just I just bought six cell phones for my kids, all Apple devices. Now let me tell you, when you're sitting in that cell phone store getting ready to purchase six, you're like, is this really worth it? Yeah, I bet there's no way that I would spend the money that I would on those six phones two for one for my wife and I and then our four kids. There's no way that I would spend money from purely a value proposition standpoint. There are other alternatives. I can go buy a different kind of a phone. I can go buy, you know, other alternatives to the specific model that I'm looking at.

Cory Scheer 16:47

But it isn't just informed by value and that construct of value. It's critical and it's not like we're willing to spend whatever, but we're willing to spend the money because we trust that it will deliver and we trust that what they are about aligns with what we want to be about as well, and it's the merging of those two truths. That's when our value shoots up. And so, in the same way you know, obviously as a consumer, we experienced that. But think about that internally with other team members or leaders or teams that you were a part of where you. Your value in them is informed deeply by simply how much you trust them, which means that you value their disagreements, you value their doubt of certain things because you know that you trust that they're coming at that from a place of respect and honor and trying to make things better. Or you value their reflection or you value their silence, not that they're weaponizing their silence against you, but because you trust that they have good intentions and your truths are matching.

Jon Kidwell 17:56

It's playing out in my head in terms of just the benefit of the doubt that I give a person. And also, perhaps you've had this play out, like I've had this play out, where sometimes there's a piece of data or there's a disagreement, or there's just this idea that bubbles up and at some point it's oh, who said that or where did this come from? And they put in that name of somebody that you would just go to the grave over, right, like you trust them as much as you can trust them, and it's like, well, if they said it, it must be true. I mean, we've all said things like that, right, and this is exactly what you're talking about.

Cory Scheer 18:30

Yeah, or even you know, if a trusted leader asks you to do more or do something different, you're going to say yes to that. If a toxic leader asks you to do more, what are you going to?

Jon Kidwell 18:48

do with your time. It's not worth it. I'm not going to guard it right. I'm actually I'm going to second guess, I'm not going to give positive intent. I'm going to, I'm going to think are they operating in my best interest or is it in their best interest? Are they doing things for the company, or are they doing things because I'm actually setting them up for a political move that they're trying to make? All of this stuff goes through your head.

Cory Scheer 19:06

And those are all probably very valid questions, but, as every time you ask that question without validating in terms of getting on the same page with that person, or it's validated, every time you ask that question, their behaviors demonstrate that your question was the right question. Now you begin to start seeing the gap, and that's the whole premise of the book, and some people have asked me well, why didn't you call it bridging the trust gap?

Cory Scheer 19:30

It's like I don't want to build a bridge. Bridges are expensive and they break up. I love it. Let's close the gap. The cover of the book has a broken bridge, but it's a play on. Like we're not going to build a bridge over the bridge, we're going to close the gap. Yeah, Like that's the goal. We got to close the gap. It's not about building bridges, it's about and that's so so true that that would.

Jon Kidwell 19:55

I mean there's tons of places in life where we have just chasms of division and and it's not just you know this, this rope bridge or this structural bridge, but really it's what can we do to reconcile this thing and bring it together? Okay, so what gets in the way? Right, you said if, if we, actually if you, corey, and I, john, look at the same color and I say that's yellow and you say no, that's purple, and we disagree on the truth of something. Right, and I use a very meaningless example. Unless you and I are LSU Tiger fans, then we're going to go all up in arms about it, apparently. But on the whole, that's a meaningless example. But there are real examples of where what you say is true and what I think is true are two totally different things. What else gets in the way of trust?

Cory Scheer 20:46

It's a great question and I think the next thing that I would share is and it goes into the book itself talks about the structure of trust. So this is where, when there is an incomplete understanding of the structural components of trust, then we have more trust dynamics that can occur that are not positive. So, for example, we know from the research that there are three primary building blocks of building trust. The first one is competency. That includes technical competency, communication competency, project management competency, time management competency, financial competency. These are all of the things that typically people are hired to do within a company. These are your resume skills. These are all of the things that typically people are hired to do within a company. These are your resume skills. These are the things that you can build. You can go get professional development, you can get a different kind of an educational experience. These are the competency, but they're critical. But that's only one of the three building blocks of trust.

Cory Scheer 21:43

Second building block of trust is problem solving. So problem solving means not only a proper problem solving process, that's change management, that's critical thinking, that's the ability to navigate through conflict and resolve it appropriately with healthy intent, but it's also the ability to identify problems before they even become a problem, that we create them as a problem. So this is that anticipatory thinking about longer term implications of what we're doing right now, so that we can prevent those problems from occurring. And then the third building block that is vital, that our data shows is the most challenging building block for many organizations is the building block of caring for others. So this is active listening, appreciative, inquiry, empathy, sympathy, caring for the needs of the whole person.

Cory Scheer 22:31

So the idea is or what the data says, is that you may have the most competent problem solver in the organization, but if they don't care about people, they are breaching trust. Or you may have the nicest person with the purest intent, but if they are not competent, I don't need the super syrupy, sweet, nice airline pilot. I need the respectful airline pilot that can solve a problem if we had turbulence, that is competent enough to take off and land my plane. They don't need to be super nice all of the time. I need them to have all three of those building blocks in order for me to be okay. And so, in the same way, within a company like this, constant as a leader now, with this construct of competency, problem solving and care for others. Now, instead of me saying I don't trust that person or I don't trust that policy or practice, I can say what is causing me unrest about that team member right now is they are not identifying the right problems to solve.

Cory Scheer 23:36

And as a result of that, the effect is they are breaking down trust, or with this particular policy or practice that we're doing, what is causing me angst is that it doesn't demonstrate care for our other team members or for our customers, and so, because of that, I don't trust it, because that doesn't align with my version of the truth and what the truth should be, and so, as a result of that, we either can change it or we can continue to create distrust with that policy or that practice or that team member. So that's where you take something ethereal and universal and you break it down into pieces where you can actually measure it.

Building Strong Trust in Leadership

Jon Kidwell 24:15

And not only measure it like that measurement, but as you're going through that, and for those that think about courageous conversations and resolving conflict, and go back rewind, listen to the words that Corey just shared, because what that structure did was it actually took a very large majority, if not all, of the problems we have with people and we turned them to the problems that we actually have. Right, the language that you flipped on was, instead of Jim's, a jerk is. We are not solving the right problems and thus I'm frustrated with Jim or whatever that might be, and in all of those kind of coaching and teaching and team building and all of us go through those things and we talk about. You know, go, go towards the problem. Don't attack the individual. Do this, do this Because when we do, we further diminish trust in your language and in your model. You've given us not only the ingredients, if you will, those interrelated pieces, but it also helps us move into how do I actually go after the real problem that exists?

Cory Scheer 25:23

And if we don't do that and we're in a leadership position, guess what? Every other team member is now thinking about us. Position, guess what? Every other team member is now thinking about us. My leader is not competent enough to go have that conversation because they don't recognize it. My leader is not willing to solve the right problem. My leader does not care for me enough to be able to go address this very, very challenging personnel dynamic that is causing distress among all of us. And so, as a result of that, not only do I not trust that other person, I don't trust my leader. And now you have two gaps that are occurring and the leader is saying well, but they're technically, they're very, very proficient in what they do or they're a bulldog when it comes to problem solving.

Cory Scheer 26:06

The challenge is that you cannot overcompensate with one building block to make up for a deficiency in another building block of trust. You have to have all three. They have to be strong, and otherwise you begin to have that wobbly three leg of the stool dynamic. Making one leg of the stool longer doesn't actually solve the problem. It's not possible. You have to have all three.

Jon Kidwell 26:28

Yeah, yeah, oh, corey, if I'm that pilot that you talked about, that hopefully is a trustworthy pilot. My problem is is I just want to keep flying the plane right now, but I also know that we need to bring this down. So I'm that leader and I'm looking at a wobbly stool. I've heard the structure I'm with you on. Trust precedes value precedes loyalty. I want nine out of 10, nine out of 10. Like I want this match. What do I do?

Cory Scheer 26:58

So the and we've lined it out in the book the way to take action on truth, the way to live out your trust proposition. It's three things. It's three steps. First one is you have to assess. It could be quantitative, it could be qualitative, where you're listening, it could be creating a circle, a conversation, where you're simply getting feedback from other people. You may do an organizational trust assessment. We deploy trust assessments frequently where it gives you the deep dive. On that, there's certainly a lot of ways that you can do that. Number two you then have to apply a shared framework. You have to create a common language and commitment around trust.

Cory Scheer 27:35

We like our, the model that we use, because it's simple. I call it the back of the napkin model competency, problem solving and care for others. We're simply expanding the work of researchers 20 years ago. They've proven it. We're clarifying it. We've now packaged it in a way that people can just say it's easy, it's memorable. We can incorporate this into our day-to-day conversation, not just at some keynote speech or at a workshop that we listen to, but it's something that we can really make a part of our ethos.

Cory Scheer 28:04

But then the third thing is and the most important thing ultimately, that we have to do is we have to take action.

Cory Scheer 28:09

We have to take action on the truth. If we stand by, if we become passive, if we become complacent, if we deprioritize this, we will get the exact results that we have wired our time and energy towards and we will continue to be frustrated. We'll see negative results with our other key performance indicators, like retention, like engagement, like work ethic, like the overall workplace culture. But there's always an opportunity to assess, to apply the framework and then to take action on it. And then, when we do those things, it is incredible what can start to occur and people will work harder, they will stay longer, they will be more creative, they will have more freedom to disagree, because they know that it's not about questioning somebody else's truth. It's about having a critical conversation because of a shared truth, and that's when these places become almost magical to work at. You're like there's something in the water here that's so amazing. And really what people are doing is they're just staying committed to the core tenets of what it means to strengthen trust.

Jon Kidwell 29:15

I mean just imagine all of the brain space that is taken up by all of the second guessing, all of the am I reading their motives right? All of the inferencing that all of us might do in an unhealthy, toxic organization. Imagine if all of that's gone. Imagine if 99% of that is gone, how much we might actually enjoy working together and how much we might get done for the people we serve. Corey, thank you for this book. This is awesome. I told Corey before we started and y'all need to get closing the trust gap. But I told him before we started I was like I'm about halfway through, I'm not done. It would have been the sweet spot to be like I finished the book, so I got my own work to do. I need to take action on finishing that book and continue to roll it out Before we go. My friend, we ask everybody this and I've been dying to hear your answer this whole time, corey what does it mean to you to lead well?

Cory Scheer 30:12

answer this whole time, corey, what does it mean to you to lead well? Well, I'll tell you what the data says is required of us to lead well, and it's to start with trust. And it starts right here Am I trustworthy, am I competent, am I solving the right problems, am I demonstrating care for others? And then it begins to go out in concentric circles. But in order for us to lead well, we have to start with trust.

Jon Kidwell 30:35

There we go. Leading well starts with trust. Corey, where can people connect with you? Whether it's for the book, whether it's for the organizational assessment keynotes, whatever it is, what's the best place and ways to connect with you?

Cory Scheer 30:49

LinkedIn is always a good place to start. I spend a fair amount of time on LinkedIn posting some things. I've got a newsletter that's available there. I always respond to people who want to connect. That's not a problem. And then the website for the company that I am the founder of. It's called Trust Centric Consulting and that's wwwtrustcentricconsultingcom. And then the book you can find on Amazon. Just look up Closing the Trust Gap and look for the book with the blue broken bridge and you'll find it.

Jon Kidwell 31:18

That's right. Everybody go out, grab that book. We will put all the links in the show notes course here. Thank you so much for being here today. It's been an absolute blessing and a joy. Thank you so much. Everybody else, thank you for being here. I look forward to seeing you next time. Until then, be well, lead on and God bless.