The Law of Thirds | John Carroll

Have you ever considered that no matter how hard you try, one-third of people will always support you, another third will oppose you, and the remaining third can be swayed? In this episode, we dive deep into the "Law of Thirds" communication framework with John Carroll, Executive Director of City Leadership in Memphis. Drawing from his extensive experience, including lobbying for a governor, John shares his insights on how leaders can effectively navigate this challenging dynamic. He explains the importance of stewarding your truth, passion, and communication, focusing especially on winning over the middle third to drive successful outcomes.

We explore the challenges of building consensus and navigating resistance within teams. One of the key strategies John discusses is categorizing people into 'for', 'against', and 'don't care' groups, and concentrating efforts on the ambivalent middle third to create momentum. We also cover the dangers of overconfidence and the need to win over the undecided without alienating supporters. Through relatable examples, such as friends left out of group texts due to green messages, we illustrate the necessity of sometimes letting go of those who won't join the journey. This conversation is a must-listen for leaders looking to harness the power of effective communication and strategic thinking.

Lastly, we delve into the principles of servant leadership, focusing on how leaders can engage their teams through active listening and clear communication. John emphasizes the significance of making everyone feel heard and understood, even in disagreement, to foster a cohesive and motivated team. He also shares the impactful work of City Leadership in Memphis, offering valuable lessons on leading with purpose and compassion. Join us for an insightful discussion on the art of guiding and inspiring teams, and learn how to make a meaningful difference in your organization and community.

Connect with  John:

John Carroll | LinkedIn
John Carroll | Email
City Leadership | Website  | Instagram  | LinkedIn

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Order your copy of Jon's book at RedefineYourServantLeadership.com, and don't forget to utilize the additional resources, or purchase access to the Workbook and Coaching Videos.

Send your Leadership and Business questions to Jon at podcast@leadwell.com.

For more information visit https://leadwell.com

The Leadwell Podcast gives mission-driven leaders principled and practical advice to do just that, lead well.

In each episode, your host Jon Kidwell, interviews leaders with great stories, to share strategies that help leaders navigate complex, confusing, and often down-right challenging leadership, personal growth, business, and workplace culture situations.

Jon is a nonprofit executive turned coach, speaker, author, and CEO of a leadership development company. In working with nonprofits and businesses, big and small, he realized the unique challenges leaders face when they are committed to keeping the mission and people the top priority. Those leaders’ commitment to their principles and the people they lead, plus seeing the need for more leaders who strive to do the right thing, the right way, for the right reasons, is what inspired Jon to start a leadership development company dedicated to the success of mission-driven leaders and their organiza...

Transcript

Law of Thirds Communication Framework

Jon Kidwell 0:00

I think, and like we just said, anything goes awry, whatever we get to fix it all in post production. So, matthew, all of the cursing, all of everything, you just take it out, right, yeah.

John Carroll 0:14

Yeah, yeah.

Jon Kidwell 0:18

Welcome to the Leadwell podcast, the podcast for mission-driven leaders, where we interview guests who are doing it well to help you lead your business and your people well. And today with me I have another John. Let's be real, most likely a much better. John Also uses the H in there, but John Carroll, Executive Director of City Leadership in Memphis, Tennessee. It is a nonprofit helping nonprofits and, as you said, hey, we help the good guys do more good. Welcome to the show, John. Thanks for being here.

John Carroll 0:49

Hey, thanks for having me. Really really grateful to be on.

Jon Kidwell 0:52

So we you and I were kind of talking and setting this up and my brain already started spinning on what we were going to talk about and it probably needs some establishment. You said it's a communication framework and idea, but it's called the law of thirds. So what is the law of thirds?

John Carroll 1:11

Well, so one of the things that we've got, we've figured out over the years, is that not everybody is going to be on our side, no matter how hard we try. Right.

Jon Kidwell 1:23

Wait, what are you talking about? I don't understand.

John Carroll 1:25

What do you mean? Everyone's not going to be on my side.

John Carroll 1:28

And I would say is that. So I've got a bunch of different jobs in a bunch of different fields and we've done polling and quantitative and qualitative and tried to figure everything out. And one of the things that we found was back in the day I used to work for a governor and I was on his legislative staff and we would go out and lobby bills and it just came down to it. It did not matter what bill we were talking about. We had 100 people in our state house and the reality was is that a third of the people were for it, a third of people were against it, and then there was that middle third and that was always within a person or two on everything. And so that was a long time ago for me that was 25 years or so ago and that is rung true in every work, every practice, almost everything we've tried to do. And one of the things that we found about that is just realizing is that, no matter how much time we spend on it, no matter how much time we try to communicate, it is that a third of the people are not going to be with us. And I think that one of the things that we're just okay with is saying is that, hey, I think that one of the things that we're just okay with is saying is that, hey, that can be okay.

John Carroll 2:47

The good news is and I think a little bit of scary news for leaders is a third of the people are always with us, and that's one of the things we have to steward as leaders is making sure that we're saying the right things and pushing the right things, because you can say about anything we see it today, obviously, in the political climate today Because you can say about anything we see it today, obviously in the political climate today and a third of the people will just be with you, no matter how outlandish it is or how crazy it is or whatever.

Building Consensus and Navigating Resistance

John Carroll 3:11

And so you've got to steward your truth and you've got to steward your passion and steward your communication in a way of knowing that you've got sheep that are going to follow the shepherd. They're going to follow you wherever you lead them, and so. But where we find the law of the third really mattering is we understand is that we have to figure out how to win the middle third, because the truth of it is no matter what you say, a third of the people are not with you or against you, and in fact, most of those people are actually just not even listening to you though.

Jon Kidwell 3:43

Well, that that's what bothers me. Let's be real. I am sitting here, I'm a galvanizing leader, I love to be motivating, I love to be persuasive. So I got my little paper in front of me and basically what I just wrote down is I did three little boxes For against. Don't care.

Jon Kidwell 4:03

That's how I just heard everything that you told me and then I look at it and I think, right, but and this is probably way too much ego, or just confidence, just unwavering confidence, and stupidity, honestly, is what it is. But I was like, but I could probably get the like don't cares in the against, like I can win, I can win some of those right, could, I could probably get the like don't cares in the against like I can win.

John Carroll 4:28

I can win some of those Right and yeah, that's the one you're telling me, some of it you got to let go and then.

Jon Kidwell 4:31

And then you're also saying you got to win some of them, right?

John Carroll 4:34

Well, if you're going to have the majority, if you're going to have the momentum, if you're going to create the tipping point, it's going to take more than just a simple message. You can't stand up in front of your staff. You can't stand up in front of the people who are your customer base. You can't even stand up. I've got five kids. I can't stand up in front of my family and just say, hey, we're doing this without people for me and against me, and people not listening or ambivalent, orent or you know, they've heard me, but they're not.

John Carroll 5:06

They don't really have a hardcore opinion, and so you have to do that extra work as you're thinking through it, and what's interesting is, as you do the extra work, the two things will end up happening. One is is that you do have a chance to win over the middle third. That's the whole point. You have to do the extra work to win them over and you got to figure out what it's going to take A lot of times. As you're doing that, you might actually confuse your third, that's with you. What does that mean?

Jon Kidwell 5:32

Yeah, what goes on there Because? That's confusing me right now.

John Carroll 5:35

Yeah. So the thing that you said to them was just like they. Just they said yes A lot of times because you're their leader, not because of what you said, and so when they start to understand it or when they start to hear more, they're like wait a second, I thought we were just doing whatever. You mean we have to actually pay more money, or that's going to take time, or I'm going to have to actually volunteer, or I'm going to have to put time in. I just thought it was just going to happen, right. So you start to find those cracks, even in your yes. It doesn't mean they go to a no, but they they end up starting. But I think part of it is is realizing. Is that, hey, figuring out who's out on this and just not spending their time and energy and effort, because that's where we see a lot of times is we see ourselves as leaders, spending time with people who aren't coming with you on an issue, and realizing it's just what we want to do, like that's part of what it is.

Jon Kidwell 6:29

It's like we move people in that general direction, right, and, as you and I were saying before, we even jumped on like, ah, this is, this is so insightful and it's such a great reminder of sometimes your product just isn't for people and sometimes that and sometimes that that change management, like all of us talk about, is like you're. You're probably going to lose some people If you start shifting culture or change of processes or doing this because they're not going to come, and it's it's the clean visual breakdown and reminder of things we already know.

John Carroll 7:01

Well, we all have a friend who's still sending green text. We can't convince. We cannot convince to come over, right. And you know what I've started doing? I just leave them out of the text threads. I just like, look, here's the deal, you're just, you're just out, you're not in the group text anymore, and so like I don't, I don't want them all to be green, and so like, as you make this decision in so many other different ways, but that when you, when you start to realizing that you cannot get everyone to be in consensus on everything and in fact, if you get 90% of people to be consensus on something, then it's got to be the most obvious, most easiest thing possible.

John Carroll 7:48

And as leaders, we're usually presenting complex, different. You know really, you know polarizing, you get it right. We're polarizing topics and ideas and we have to shape our better future through that. And we have to realize that when we introduce a polarizing idea, that we're going to polarize people and and then the goal is is to get, as you're getting, more people on your side is identify that middle, and each topic is going to slice people up a little bit different uh, the the nature of principle.

Jon Kidwell 8:22

I mean even just decisions. Hey, we could think of big ones, of like we're going to stop that service or that product. We could think of politically polarizing things. But also I mean anyone that's done any sort of development in their team and tried to order lunch for 50 people. Somebody is leaving that lunch extremely dissatisfied, right Like it's just the nature of making a decision and being in leadership that you will divide and polarize some in an effort to move and align others.

John Carroll 8:54

Well, and I think that you know, obviously Well, and I think that you know, obviously, mature people can walk away from their unpreferred lunch and be okay, right, sure, sure. But obviously there's issues that we deal with, especially when it comes to you know who we care for, how we care for them, you know who's invited to be cared for. All that kind of stuff can be really, really polarizing. But here's the reality is is that we're all humans. None of us have the ability to meet everyone's needs. Anyways, at some point you're going to run out of time, capacity, money, intelligence, just whatever those things are. So you're going to run to an end of it.

John Carroll 9:37

And you know, like we say around our office all the time, is that, man, there's 30 things we wish we could be doing well every single day. We got the resources to do about 12 of them and you know we could. We could pivot some of those around inside that 30 and be really happy organizationally. But we've got people in our office that are like, man, this is what I want to be about. And we've got other people that are so mad that we're not being about something else and it's all in good, 30 things, but it's like it doesn't matter. We can't be about all of them, we've got to be about something. And so, even as you decide good things like that, and so it's a hard, complex thing and as leaders we have to understand is that you're just not going to get everybody, and you've got to do more than just saying it to get the momentum and get the majority.

Jon Kidwell 10:26

So that brings us back around to what you said, which is probably one of the critical pieces beyond the acceptance of. There are just some that are against. But you said earlier there's extra work we got to do in the middle right and you just kind of brought back around to that. So if I'm a leader and I'm sitting there looking at my team and we're going through change management, if we've just made a big organizational decision, if I'm looking at clients, if I'm looking at people that we serve on the positive and the negative that are kind of the detractors and the supporters, how do I engage in some of that hard work, the extra work, as you said, in that middle? Third, Right.

John Carroll 11:10

So this is what's so important you know, when you understand. And again, a lot of times you're not voting. People are voting a lot of times not because they're actually putting a placard up or actually clicking a button. They're voting with their attitude, they're voting with their work ethic, they're voting with their customer base, they're voting with their participation, and so you start to see some of that engagement. But the law of the thirds basically says is that, no matter what you're doing you should think about it this way is that a third of the people are pumped about it, and a third of people, even if they're doing it, they're probably not pumped about it, right, and and that could be just because of their personality or timing or something that's out of your control. What you've got to understand is that the people in the middle that are either participating in some sort of way or you're trying to win over or trying to whatever, is that they're more inclined to say no. Unless you do the work to get them to say yes and that's where that effort is is that we say in our office a confused mind says no, and so confusion doesn't have to be that they're confused why it matters. They're just confused on how it should happen, right, and so they could have the why, but they don't know how, and so they're going to say no. Or they don't know what's actually going on, and so maybe they heard your why, or maybe they just heard your what, but they don't know why. Right, and even they have got explained how it's going to work, but they haven't heard the why. If they're confused on any one of those why, how or what they're a confused mind going to say no.

John Carroll 12:48

And as a leader, that's when you lose momentum, that's when you lose the tipping point, energy where you can get high quality work and accomplishment, and wherever that is. You know organizationally, and so you know, as you go into those individual orgs, those individual groups inside, that, as you start figuring out personality based, you know I've got a staff of 20. So, about on anything and different kinds of topics, I know them well enough to know who I need to pull in and have some one-on-ones with and who needs to hear when I say something that maybe a staff gathering and be like, hey, I'm doing this, but I want to invite some of you all to hear you know where we are able to go through some deeper Q&A on this at this other session, at this other time. Anybody wants to come. And then I might say to a director hey, your team needs to make sure that they're there, right Cause I know that they're in the process or pulling those people one-on-one and having that conversation going. Hey, when I I'm going to make an announcement tomorrow, and I think I think you're going to be likely, you know, I know you well and I want to say that whatever now, with 20 people, that's possible 20,000 people or 2000 people or even 200 person congregation, that's really hard and that's what you know like, let's just say, like a pastor.

John Carroll 14:01

A pastor says he has 300 people in congregation. Only 120 people are showing up. That's usually that. Third. You know what I'm saying. They're showing up being a part of it, and so you know, where are you getting those other people to be engaged in that space? And so you start to. If you start to see it that way and just go ahead and go and decide it's that way, then you start making effort in a little bit extra and different way and you start to categorize people a little bit. And when you find that big hard, no is that you don't have to go be persuasive with that person. If you find yourself trying to be persuasive, you're probably trying to convert a no to a yes. But if you find yourself trying to give clarity, if you find yourself trying to eliminate confusion, you're taking somebody from the middle to bring him over with you.

Jon Kidwell 14:46

That's really powerful and I accept the coaching that you just gave me around the. It's not about persuading no's to yeses and if you find yourself in that, check it. But if you are trying to provide clarity to, almost like a seeking interested individual that's there wanting to hear it out, not just be a curmudgeon or argue, right, your role is clarity, right? Is that what you're saying?

John Carroll 15:16

Yeah, for sure, and I think that when you make clarity your goal, what happens is people feel empowered to make their own yes, instead of forced into what they think you're making them do. Right, and that's what we say all the time is, we shouldn't have to persuade anybody or beg anyone or, you know, or just yank somebody over from one side to the other. It's just that we keep assuming that there's some angle that they're confused on, often around the why, how or what. Investigate that obviously individually, or even just think about that kind of in a bigger group form is if you're not getting enough yes, if you're not getting enough momentum, you need to assume that your crowd is either one, two or all three confused around why, how or what, and then you start communicating to them in various different ways how to be able to you know where the clarity is around that and then making sure that they've heard it.

Jon Kidwell 16:20

So the extra work also kind of demands more time, more attention, all of what you said there. I can see that and I still want to do it, and it's super clear on why, how, what, and I'm guessing, and maybe there's some of this that also happens. And I'm guessing, and maybe there's some of this that also happens. I get drawn into those outside, peripheral, outlier places because, let's be real, like at the ones that are for me, like it feels good, right, like they're just charging with me, and the ones that are against seem to make a lot of noise and really demand my emotional attention. And so if everything's getting sucked up out there, like how do I get into the middle? What do I do? If I'm a leader that's just stuck on those outsides? And I hear you and I want to be able to activate the ambivalent middle.

John Carroll 17:13

Yeah. So I think you know, one of those ways of getting out of the middle is really checking your ego, um, because that'll help you identify where you're at. You know, um, and I think that if you find yourself, you know um, feeling, you know, one of the things is with the no is actually where you feel fear. You know, with the yeses is where you actually you feel really glad, right, you feel glad, you feel joy. You know that's all happening with over here. So if you're feeling glad and joy with everybody you're talking to and you don't actually have the momentum and the energy and all that kind of stuff, you're like man, am I talking to everybody here? Like you know, you're like whatever.

John Carroll 17:58

And if you feel fear, fear is actually where you feel the, where you feel the with the nose is because in that fear is where you take, is where you're starting to feel anxiety. You start trying to exhibit control around them. Well, well, if you don't agree with me, I won't let you whatever, right. And then you're like oh, these people always drive me so crazy, right. Your rage starts coming out and it's courageous to go talk to people who completely disagree with you and I would say is instead of trying to persuade them, what you have to go do, especially if you're leading a group of people to ongoing relationship and they don't agree with you.

John Carroll 18:33

You're the leader, you're taking them, whether or not they agree with you or not. Now they may walk out the door or go somewhere else. When you go over there, what you do is is you have to go, say hey, I realize we don't agree, I want to understand why. And so you, just you get educated, because you might be wrong. Right, and leaders have been wrong before. I don't know. It's breaking news, right?

Jon Kidwell 18:53

here on this story but, wrong before.

Navigating Leadership Challenges With Clarity

John Carroll 18:56

And so a lot of times you might be like, oh my gosh, that is a big issue. I've never thought about it before. So, like making sure they feel heard, because they're okay with disagreeing if they feel heard, and so I think, going over there and making sure you're not trying to you know you're not plot twisting or that kind of stuff and then when you're going into this group in the middle, you're finding yourself really curious, you know, and I'd say is using curiosity as to what have they heard, what do they understand and where? Where is that really fitting in? And when your curiosity is turned on more than your fear right, like I was telling you to circumvent your fear over here with the nose with some curiosity, but really more of that's really about respect. You're kind of taking courage and respect to the people. You fear the no and you're just saying hey, I honor your no, I honor that we disagree, tell me whatever. That's where you're taking courage.

John Carroll 19:51

But curiosity is where you're taking the middle of trying to find people when you're in curious conversations. If they're not asking you good questions, then you're taking the middle of trying to find people when you're in curious conversations. If they're not asking you good questions, then you're not opening them up as a leader, or if they don't feel like they've got a floor in that space or they're so oblivious to what's going on and that can also happen there in the middle is that they don't even realize they're not paying attention. We see that happen in a political landscape all the time. People aren't watching the news, they don't know what's going on, they don't know anything about what's happening, and so you've got to inform them in some sort of way to be able to bring some interest into that space.

John Carroll 20:28

And then you got to empower other leaders to be able to do that. So for me, I'm empowering my directors, who are fit all across the spectrum already, and making sure that they are actually figuring this out, because you get a director who's overseeing a bunch of people who are yeses but they're a no man that can create problems, you know. Or they're overseeing a bunch of people who are yeses but they're confused in the middle, you know. And so you've got to, you know, start close. You know, aim small, miss small, try to make sure they're all with you in that space, and then they're bringing that to their own people and creating environments inside their pockets where they can do that, and they can elevate that up to you and you can learn over and over again as an organizational leader.

Jon Kidwell 21:12

Man, everything that you were saying drove back in my brain to the idea of actively listening. Right, that there is an engagement, there is an active listening, which we've talked about here before and that it is I am both listening and sharing to drive towards a deeper understanding, and that when we do that, that's one of the best ways that we can engage all of those thirds, if you will.

John Carroll 21:40

Right, right. But I think that's where, when your leaders start off with it, just because you said it doesn't mean they've all heard it, and just because people are doing it doesn't mean they all agree. And I think that, as a leader, when you can just assume that those two things are usually always true not everybody heard it and not people are doing it doesn't mean they all agree. And I think that, as a leader, when you can just assume that those two things are usually always true not everybody heard it and not everyone agrees and then you've got to at some point go like hey, my goal isn't 100% agreement, you know, it's just making sure that if they're saying no to it, that we both know why they're saying no to it. You know that's OK. And then we don't leave people confused in the middle, because the confused people in the middle are actually really, really hard to actually manage, they're really hard to maximize and they're really hard to predict, because they get really lost in the mission because they get really lost in the mission.

Jon Kidwell 22:33

Yeah, it's so, so true and powerful. And so many of us, as middle managers and I kind of tell everybody like listen, every single one of us is a middle manager We've either got a board, we've got clients, we've got whatever. Doesn't matter if you're the one in charge, you're a middle manager, we all are. And that confusion of expectations, of what's required, of what do people need, whatever it might be, that is the piece that will trip all of us up. A confused mind says no.

John Carroll 23:08

Confusion is not a natural. Yes, right, that's ignorance and folly, but humans are. We were wired and designed to actually have fear, right, and so confusion, it leads towards fear, and so that's going to lead towards all sorts of no, that's how we've survived as humans, right? But yeah, confused mind says no. And so, you know, in my old pastor you say you know, a fog, a mist in the pulpit is a fog in the pews, yeah, oh, man, that's so true for leaders, right?

Jon Kidwell 23:47

If it's foggy in your brain, you better expect storms out in the organization. Man, John, this has been so good as we keep on moving. A couple of things that I thought of is, man, whenever we can choose not to be confused, that as leaders, we can choose not to be confused and know that we got to engage and help people with the why, the what and the how, and if we are in that, perhaps we have a responsibility to choose not to be confused and to ask for what we need and to engage as well, and that if we do that, if we overcome confusion, get clarity and keep in mind those law of the thirds, we might be able to work pretty effectively together.

John Carroll 24:29

Man. So true, and I think, as you, you as leaders, overcoming that confusion and making people feel less confused, like, just like when you said active listening, and then actively saying back what you heard to them, and then you can splice the differences. Oh, I'm hearing you say this and so you think that we're going this, but i'm'm actually trying to accomplish this. Do you see how that's different, like is that sound different to you? Or because it feels different to me? And I think that when I can say that, then that person feels they're able to express themselves, they were understood and now they can see the differences. And then we can agree or disagree, and that can still fall into the group. That's not going to agree with me, right, but at least now we're all and there's no confusion. You know, and I think that that that becomes. You know, if you approach that as your enemies, the no's aren't your enemies, like the confusion is your enemy. It.

Jon Kidwell 25:29

That's right, oh, so so good, john, you have given us a lesson in leading well today, and I ask everybody that comes on the show and so you don't get out of it either, just because you have a wonderful name, but what does it mean to you to lead well?

Servant Leadership and City Leadership

John Carroll 25:46

Man. So I define leadership as taking initiative for the benefit of others. Um, I love the word taking, um, I go, I go and take, uh, and I actively take the initiative. Um, but, um, but man, the leading piece is for the benefit of others. Um, you know, I've I feel like you know, even in saying that I try to live and embody that. But I would be totally ignorant to not confess that I feel like I've grown more and benefited more from actually leading than probably anyone I've ever led. But the whole hope is is to actually benefit others in that process whole hope is is to actually benefit others in that process.

Jon Kidwell 26:36

Yeah Well, I love it. That is also the definition of service, and we're a big fan of servant leadership, and that is to act for the benefit of the object, and that could be a person, could be an organization, could be something. So I love it. Thank you for sharing that, john. Everybody John Carroll is on LinkedIn. We'll put a link in the show notes. You can check out more about city leadership, cityleadershiporg especially if you are in that Memphis area. Connect with them and, john, thank you so much for being here today For everybody else. Be well, god bless and lead on.

Jon Kidwell 27:11

Man, that was great A fist bump air five something right the way coming across. Man, that was so good, that was really great, you uh pulled more out of me uh.