Leadership Moments

The Real Keys to Employee Motivation and Buy-In

• Stacey Caster and Tracy-Ann Palmer • Season 3 • Episode 35

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Leaders across industries are waking up to a powerful truth that contradicts conventional wisdom: money isn't what truly motivates employees. As our guest, Dave Garrison, reveals in this episode.

The episode unpacks practical techniques any leader can implement immediately. Ready to move beyond superficial engagement strategies and tap into what truly motivates your team? Listen now to discover how seeing people as "human beings rather than human doings" can revolutionize your leadership approach and organizational results.

Episode Guest:  Dave Garrison
Website:  www.garrisongrowth.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dave-garrison-growth/
Book:  "The Buy-In Advantage", available at www.buyinbook.com 

All episodes and guest requests can be found at:
www.leadershipmomentspodcast.com
Follow Stacey Caster on Instagram @staceycaster_
Follow Tracy-Ann Palmer on Instagram @tracy_ann_palmer

Money Myth: What Really Motivates People

Dave Garrison

You have to walk the talk. You have to be authentic as a leader. If you're not doing it, they see that.

Stacey Caster

It is entirely universal.

Dave Garrison

There's other people who are going through this. For me, a great leader needs to be able to marry three things vision, systems and people.

Stacey Caster

Welcome to Leadership Moments, if this is your first time and if you are returning. Thank you for your support.

Tracy-Ann Palmer

This show is about leaders from all walks of life leadership tips and maybe even a little of what you wouldn't expect to help you in leadership.

Stacey Caster

We would appreciate it if you tell someone else about our podcast, as we strive to support all leaders that want to just be better. Let's get on with the show. Today, our guest is Dave Garrison. Dave is the CEO of Garrison Growth, equipping leaders to generate buy-in and get the best results from their teams. Dave is a seasoned executive with experience as a board member at organizations like Ameritrade and as CEO of public and venture-backed firms. He is also a speaker and workshop leader, where he has led hundreds of sessions for profit and not-for-profit organizations and for members of young presidents' organizations, both globally and locally. Today, we are going to talk about how leaders can gain buy-in to empower their team members, and this is going to be a good one, so let's jump in, dave. I am really excited to have you on the show today. You have a lot of good nuggets when we talked about the preparation before this recording and we wanted to start off with the first thing, which is really, what is the biggest myth that leaders have on what motivates people?

Dave Garrison

Yeah, you know this is. It sounds so obvious to say look, everybody knows that people are motivated by money, and so leaders believe and operate on this assumption that people are motivated by money. I believe, and what the data shows is, money is important, but it's not a motivator. Money is table stakes and so the myth. If you operate on the assumption that money is what's motivating people, you'll leave a lot of opportunity behind to engage people and create better results. People are motivated by things like do you see me as an individual as opposed to accounts receivable clerk, and is my voice heard in how we get things done? And do I have an opportunity for personal or professional growth here? And those are the things that become really important. Can I grow? Am I heard? Am I a person here or am I just another number? And those have nothing to do with money and, interestingly, they cost a company nothing to leverage.

Stacey Caster

Yeah, it's so interesting and I love that because there's, first of all, there are a lot of people that money means a lot, and of course, we need money to live, and it's the do you work to live or live to work? And there's probably a little bit of both there sometimes. But being able to afford things that you want to afford in your life, Uh, but there are so many studies out there I know I've done a lot of research on that too and there's so many studies that say, look, if you try to retain someone and you give them more money because they turned in their notice, they're usually gone in under a year anyway. Um, and so let's. I want to talk about some of the other pieces of what people do get motivated by, but can you go into a little bit of the statistics that you've seen around? The whole money is not really the thing.

Dave Garrison

One of the poster children that I've personally experienced is a company took the time to send a letter to the home of each of about 400 people that left the company and they gave them a list of potential reasons why. But they can only select one. And you'd think that if money were the most important thing, you'd think all the people said money. It was interesting because the people who said money were in equal numbers to the people who said my boss, and it's poor communications with my boss, it's not being understood by my boss, it's not being given opportunities by my boss. So the company then took the additional step of sending a survey to those employees' boss to say what single thing would have allowed this employee to stay. Virtually all the bosses said money.

Universal Desires Driving Employee Engagement

Dave Garrison

So we have a fundamental disconnect, which is not the fault of the boss. It's what we have all been taught to believe, because when somebody leaves, we are polite and we do not want to burn bridges and we want them to think good of us. So we say, oh, I loved it here and I found a better job, and what the boss hears is oh, you made more money, which perpetuates this myth. The data shows also that people will take a pay cut if they believe that there is a purpose to the organization that they are going to that they align with and feel more strongly about than the purpose where they are. Many companies we talk to don't have a clear compelling purpose. They go.

Dave Garrison

What do you mean purpose? Our purpose is making money. That's why we're in business. If that's your compelling purpose, then every person who works for you is a mercenary, because they're only doing it for money. So if somebody else offers more, they'll go there. Companies that have thought about it recognize people want to. They spend so much time at work, they want to have a reason worth doing it for. And that's what compelling purpose is all about. You know, walt Disney said creating happiness. And people there knew that everything they did if they were making a movie, if they were making a book, a comic book, a theme park, a new ride it's all about making people happy. So a question for leaders what is your compelling purpose other than making money, which is never a compelling purpose? And then how do you reinforce that and how do employees see themselves in it?

Stacey Caster

Yeah, it's kind of gets back to their why, right? So there's a couple of things that you said there. First is I've always talked about look, people join a company for the company and they leave because of the leader. And so when people leave and not all the time, of course there's some things that there might be that the leader can't provide what that individual wants in their career, or maybe there's benefits that they can't provide. It could be lots of things, but the majority of the time it is because of the people is why they leave.

Stacey Caster

And so us reflecting on that and understanding what that is. And you talked about the passion piece, and we have the passion for the company, but what I have found some of what you know some of my clients when they're working with their people is it's not necessarily what the leader thinks is the passion of the company and their why around that passion, but it's around what is the why with the individual? Because even though the passion is the same, the why is different. And what are some ways that leaders could get to the heart of that why so they can make sure that they embrace that with their team members.

Dave Garrison

Boy, that's a rich observation. So a couple of principles come into play. One is leaders go last. So leaders offer their answers last 100% of the time, except when it comes to vulnerability. And then leaders always go first. So here's what that might look like. So if the company has let's stick with Walt Disney simple example so if the compelling purpose of the company is to create happiness, the leader has the opportunity to sit down with every new person or with a team and say you know, our compelling purpose is creating happiness. I want you to take a minute on your own and think about what that means to you and then allow everybody to share what it means to them. And then, and only then, does the leader say well, here's what it means to me. And then, and only then, does the leader say well, here's what it means to me. Because what's important, as you said, is not how the company sees it, not how the boss sees it, it's how the individual sees it.

Stacey Caster

That's recognizing someone as a human being, not as a human doing. I love that. I love that. Yeah, such a great reminder, right? Sometimes we get so excited and as leaders we want to jump in there. We want to tell everyone there why and why they should be excited. And you know, we have to bring the weather and sometimes we just need to pause before we actually give the weather report and be able to tell people what it is. So you mentioned about hey, there's all these other things that really are the drivers, so can you go through what some of those are and ways that leaders can tap into that and those items?

Dave Garrison

Yeah. So the four universal desires that drive most people, and, of course, money, as we said, is table stakes. Is it important? Sure, do you need to pay more to retain people? If you do, it's because you're missing on the other elements. I'm assuming you're above. You're paying living wages. So if you're paying living wages, money is not the solution. It is at best a temporary fix.

Dave Garrison

But what our solutions are a sense of community, and so people want to work in a place where they feel their six, what we pilots call the six the behind you is covered, I can trust the people I work with, they care about me. So a sense of community, a sense of purpose, which we just talked about, the compelling purpose, challenges and opportunities to learn and grow both personally and professionally. And when they have a sense of purpose, challenges and opportunities, sense of community and fair comp, then they're psychologically in a place to be bought in. If they are seen as human beings, which is having their voice heard, being recognized as an individual. Recognizing somebody as an individual is as simple as if you say how are you?

Dave Garrison

And your employee says fine, and you continue on. You've just said you don't care. I'd rather you not ask the question than accept fine, as opposed to saying it's great that you're doing fine. What are you celebrating? Can you share with me one personal and one professional celebration and then go to the work at hand? Obviously, there's work to be done, but if somebody is seen and heard, they're much more willing to have buy-in.

Stacey Caster

Yeah, I love that and you're right about the question. And what I've done for myself and guided some of my clients with is you don't have to ask how are you? You can ask different questions, like what's your favorite thing about today or how was your morning? You know what's exciting, what are you looking forward to this weekend? Just changing it up a little bit gets them out of the I'm good, I'm fine, right, they have to answer a little bit more. And engages those people a little bit. So I love that one.

Dave Garrison

But there's a test to see if you really care, because if I can get away with just saying doing fine, thanks. Thanks for asking and if you accept that as an answer, you've just reaffirmed you weren't listening at all, it was just polite chit-chat.

Creating Safety Through Recognition

Stacey Caster

I love that. So in thinking about that, I would take that and say, okay, what if I did ask the better question? I say better question meaning what are you looking forward to today, right, Rather than how are you today? Would listening be asking a follow-up question?

Dave Garrison

Like how would you test yourself then? Absolutely a follow-up question. First of all, mirroring to show that you actually heard and then asking a follow-up question is great. Another technique we talk about in the book is using get on board questions at the beginning of every staff meeting, because staff meetings are an opportunity to do a couple of things. One is to get people's best thinking on issues that we are challenged with as an organization, but that can't happen unless we've invited them into the meeting and to show up. And there are a couple of ways we invite people into the meeting. One is, at the beginning of every single meeting, whether it's a one-on-one or a small team or a standing meeting, asking people what are your expectations for this meeting? What would make this meeting a great use of your time? That's invitation number one, and what you are doing is by asking that, you're asking them to forget what's on their to-do list and to lean into the meeting, and you can't both think about expectations and be thinking about your to-do list. But then technique number two is to use the get on board question, which always has a youth element and an emotional element, youth plus emotion. So that could be Stacy.

Dave Garrison

You know it's summer vacation season. I'm really curious what was the best summer vacation you ever remember growing up? Now, selfishly, the reason I want to know the answer to that, stacey, is it tells me where you come from and how you see the world, because your views of the world were all formed before, about 12 years old. And, if I hear enough of your experiences, tell me about a time that you were really excited about joining a team. Tell me about a time that you were really disappointed by something that happened out of your control. If you ask those questions regularly, you will have a deep understanding of who that human being is and people will learn who each other are and they'll have more empathy for the human being who shows up every single day, who has ups and downs in life, but you'll understand where they came from and that's really great insight in order to have empathy, in order to engage a human being to get better results.

Stacey Caster

Love it, I love the better questions. Really unique, makes people think and I love bringing in the emotion because that always gets people. People instantly feel like you care if you're actually thinking about stuff like that and asking them those those deeper questions. Now you did mention mirroring, so for maybe some of our listeners that don't understand what mirroring is, can you explain what that is?

Dave Garrison

So, for those listeners who don't necessarily understand what mirroring is, we're going to take a minute and explain what it is. What mirroring is? We're going to take a minute and explain what it is. So mirroring is simply holding up a proverbial mirroring and repeating what you heard someone say, and what we're looking for is can you use the exact words that they used? Because we get so tripped up in conversation thinking we know what someone meant when we really don't. And an example we'll use is do you know what I mean when I say the word chair? I mean, you're not stupid. You know what a chair is, but you don't know how I was using that word. You don't know what I was referring to, but if you mirror my words, then ask clarifying questions. Gee, dave, what did you mean when you said chair? Because it could be chairman of the board. It could be the lazy boy chair in front of the television set. It could be the chair in first grade. It could be anything.

Dave Garrison

And so the place that this comes into work is if we all look at the same data, we're all going to take away a different meaning from the data, but believe that everybody sees it the way we do, which is not true. So mirroring is a great opportunity for us to remind ourselves that other people see the world differently and we really don't know what we mean unless we ask If you just jump to, well, don't you think this, you've just cut them off and said you didn't hear a word that I said. If you mirror, you're saying I heard you, stacey, did I get that right? And then ask clarifying questions. It is a very powerful tool to see the human being and to let people know they are recognized as a unique individual. Know they are recognized as a unique individual because, as a business strategy, where we want to end up is when we face a challenge or an issue, we want everybody's experience brought to bear with full buy-in so they share different ideas on solving it, because we'll all come up with different ways to approach any given situation based on who we are and what our experience has been. And so we use the example. You know people say, well, what's this buy-in stuff? And we'll say, if you're in the US, if you've been to a Friday night high school football game, you've seen the full human being show up. You've seen somebody enthusiastic, bringing all the emotions, all the highs, all the lows.

Dave Garrison

I want that person on Monday morning in my office. I want that full human being. I want somebody who feels they're in a safe space and somebody who brings their heart and their soul and their brain. I don't want somebody who says what do you want me to do? Stacey, glad to do it. Stacey, I like it here. Stacey, thanks for the thanks for the payback, stacey, I don't want that person. I want somebody who's fully there and brings themselves to work.

Mirroring: Powerful Tool for Understanding

Stacey Caster

Right, yeah, I'm so glad you explained that, because mirroring sometimes is doing the same physical movements and stuff like that.

Stacey Caster

But I like the way that you put that of you're you're not only just repeating their words, you're repeating the words to try to understand the words and make sure they are the same. And even the English language. There's so many words that can mean the same thing or mean different things with the same words. So it can get very confusing sometimes where we believe and I think it's really important that you say somebody says you're not listening to me, you didn't hear me. And I think it's really important that you say somebody says you know you're not listening to me, you didn't hear me, and you're like I was totally listening to you, but they didn't understand you. And understanding, I think, is the key. And being able to ask those questions and not assume it's so easy especially because we're going so fast in our world, right, and leaders are running from place to place and trying to hurry up and handle situations and just pausing and getting that clarity can be so powerful. So I really love how you put that.

Dave Garrison

And a pro move for leaders is particularly in difficult situations. I was just talking to a leader who had to let a very talented executive know they didn't get a promotion that they had their heart set on, and in that time of emotion and confusion it's really important to come back the next day or two days later and say you know, it's really. Your participation here is really important to me and I value you as a team member who has contributed a lot and has more potential in the future. I'm not always clear. I think I'm clear in my head, but I'm not always clear in saying what I mean. Can you tell me what you heard me say the other day in that conversation? That was so difficult.

Dave Garrison

So reverse mirroring is also important to say. Could you please tell me what you heard me say when we're asking people to do something for us, when we're delegating same technique hey look, sometimes I'm not always clear. It's clear in my head, but you can't see my head. So could you tell me what you understood me to request? It's really powerful because two weeks later when you check in, you say, how come you didn't do it? They'll say well, that's not what I heard and you don't know for two weeks time. So just check in.

Stacey Caster

Yeah, I think that is so powerful. And, ironically, I was just talking to a client today exactly about this, that they were saying how they needed to talk to someone you know, one of their direct reports and talk about what they needed them to do. And I said, well, how are you going to ensure that they understand you? And it is asking them to repeat back what that they thought they heard and what do they believe next steps are and what best next steps are.

Dave Garrison

You're inviting them in to say how do you think you might accomplish that? Because if you say here's what I need to the outcome to be, and then you tell them how to do it, you've just eliminated them. It's like okay, I'll do it the way you told me, stacey, or you can say how would you think about doing that? What would great look like to you?

Stacey Caster

That's right, that's right. And I would even add to that having like either you or them put it in writing, because there are some people that you can talk verbally all day long, but once it's put in writing now they're like oh, I get it right, we could have been talking all day long and I thought I got it, but now I really get it, Now I see it in writing. And understanding the different learning languages of everybody is really, really important.

Dave Garrison

And it's even better that they put it in writing, not you put it in writing, because it will show you the clarity of their understanding, particularly if that's how they learn.

Stacey Caster

It's really understanding your leaders, your direct reports, you know, and what they need and how that they learn and grow. And I love the piece like you're saying you have to empower them and asking them how do you do it? What would you, what would you think is best? I believe in you right Saying. Those words are so important.

Dave Garrison

And to those different learning styles I would just add we know that some people are visual learners. I'm a visual learner, Some people are kinesthetic, Some people are auditory. And we would just add if you have a request, do it in a conference room with a whiteboard and write it down on a whiteboard. Typing in your computer or them typing in your computer is not very helpful if you've got a kinesthetic or a visual learner, but seeing it written and seeing it on the whiteboard provides additional clarity in addition to the spoken word.

Stacey Caster

Yeah, that's such a good point. Yeah, there's even so many studies that show by you handwriting things yourself, it actually helps you remember and understand it better than typing it, and I have terrible handwriting, so for me that's not good, but I still do it.

Dave Garrison

Who wrote this? And it was me.

Stacey Caster

Yep, yep, I tell people that once you can read my handwriting, then you know you've worked with me too long. There you go, all right. What are some other tips and tricks that you'd like to help leaders with communication and understanding, and how to embrace their team and empower them and have them motivated?

Unlocking Collective Genius

Dave Garrison

You know, stacey, one of the concepts we talk about in the Buy an Advantage book is collective genius. Collective genius is our way of saying all of us are smarter than any of us because nobody asked. Then the organization loses. But here's what happens with the best of intentions in organizations, more times than any of us and believe me, I've done this myself I get really excited about an idea. And I come and I say Stacy, I've got this idea, can I tell you my idea? And of course you're going to say yes. And if I'm your boss, I'm going to say here, I've got this idea, can I tell you my idea? And of course you're going to say yes. And if I'm your boss, I'm going to say here's what we could do. And I'll say what do you think? And that's a setup, because if you work for me, what can you say?

Dave Garrison

You could ask a question on the edges, or you could say great idea, you've just eliminated the opportunity to learn from another person's experience in your enthusiasm. So let's rewind that tape, let's do that a different way. Let's ask ourselves what is the issue or the problem that we're addressing with our great idea? And so that could be pretty obvious. We're going to reduce hold times, we're going to decrease the time it takes to ship something. We're going to decrease costs. Whatever it is, what is the situation you're trying? What's the outcome you're going for? And then ask yourself, importantly, how did you know your idea was great? And you know it was great because it accomplished this, this, this and this, and those are things that are on the checklist in your head that I can't see. I don't know what's on the checklist in your head. I don't know what your criteria is for what great looks like. So let's change this conversation and come in and say, hey, stacy, I've got an idea to reduce costs and specifically to reduce our shipping costs, and I've got a idea to reduce costs and specifically to reduce our shipping costs, and I've got a couple of ideas.

Dave Garrison

But what I want to do is I want to let you know what I think a great solution would include. It would include something that we can easily train people on. The results are easily tracked. It's something that we can repeat, retract. It's something that we can repeat. It's something that our shippers will work with us on, or whatever your criteria is, and then share with the person you're talking to what your criteria is Look, a great solution will meet these criteria. Are there other criteria that you would like to add to that list?

Dave Garrison

And then ask the other person to take some time and come up with ideas, and then let's sit down and talk, or we'll talk as a group and get all the ideas on the board, and then only then, because leaders go last. Does the leader share their answer? What I have found and what our leaders discover and rediscover every single day is they're going to hear ideas they never thought of, and the ideas they hear may actually spark better ideas. And so the collective genius says all of us are smarter than any of us. The leader's opportunity identify the issue to be addressed and identify what great looks like. What's the criteria Now? What's the solution? What's in the checklist in your head? And then let people join in with you.

Stacey Caster

I love that framework and I love the questions that come out. What I think of is some environments are not very collaborative, and so what do you do in situations? There are some environments that, because they're not collaborative, I say they listen to respond rather than listen to understand. And it's so important to listen to understand first and not always look that you need to respond. When you're in a true collaborative environment, you don't feel that pressure necessarily to respond, it's really to understand. And so what are some tricks that you would tell leaders and how they build this into their culture if they currently don't have a collaborative environment to be able to do that?

Dave Garrison

Yeah, tracy, you know, since first grade we've been trained a couple of things. One there's a right answer and the teacher has it, and our job is to guess the right answer, and we learn that over and over and over again until we get out of school and we come into the workplace, and then what we observe is somebody will bring a problem to the boss and the boss will say well, you know, what I would do is or here's the answer. And it's like school all over again. So you don't need to contribute your ideas or your experience, because you're going to be given the answer. If we create that environment and allow people to get away with just doing what we tell them, shame on us. The alternative which, by the way, costs absolutely nothing except for time and intent, the alternative is to say you know, that's an interesting situation.

Dave Garrison

I'm curious, how would you think about solving that? I'm curious, how would you think about solving that? And whatever they tell you, do not leap to your judgment. Do not leap to your. Well, what I would do is so it's not a I'm doing a head fake so you can tell me what you think, because I'm going to pause and then I'm going to tell you what. I think it's your opportunity to say what else did you consider or what allowed you to know that that was a good answer? And what they're going to teach you, if you are listening, is how they think about the world, how they think about problems and how good their decision-making muscle is and how you can contribute to that muscle.

Dave Garrison

So what a really talented leader will say to create buy-in is. Talented leader will say to create buy-in is. How would your answer change if you also considered and give them another criteria they may not have thought of. When you do that, they will begin to learn and they can reapply that learning again and again. And that's what we want. We want an organization of people who are growing in their skill set so that we as an organization can scale and produce even better results. If you give them the answer, you've cut off your understanding, you've cut off their learning and you've invited them not to buy in. I'll just do what you want. Sure, just tell me what to do. So we have a chapter in the book. So we have a chapter in the book. Leaders ask, managers tell.

Stacey Caster

So leaders have the opportunity to ask questions when someone comes to them with a situation. Yeah, so true it is. It's so powerful, right, because, as leaders, we want to have the answers. We feel like we can only learn and ask questions to our leadership, and the reality is, if you turn around and ask questions to your team, they will guide you. When a team can perform and find the answers without you or just alongside of you, that is a successful leader right there, not someone that has to do it all on their own. So really love those pieces that you have there.

Dave Garrison

And simply treat at training them on problem, problem area, problem statement and what's great criteria look like. If you can train them to think that way, they can then empower their teams to come up with solutions and you cascade that muscle in the organization to create even better outcomes.

Leaders Ask, Managers Tell

Stacey Caster

All right, there's that sound. It's time for fun questions. Are you ready for our fun questions?

Dave Garrison

Let me check. Oh no, sorry I'm out of time.

Stacey Caster

Can't get away with it, dave, you got to go with the questions.

Dave Garrison

All right.

Tracy-Ann Palmer

All right.

Stacey Caster

The first question is would you rather give up sweet snacks or salty ones?

Dave Garrison

Oh, my goodness, You're asking a man who's got a sweet snack in front of him. I'd rather give up sweet snacks.

Stacey Caster

All right, great. And do you have like a favorite sweet snack that you want to tell us?

Dave Garrison

Oh, starbursts, they're dangerous. You can't eat just one. They're really bad news.

Stacey Caster

Love it, love it, okay Next question. Would you rather live abroad for a year or take a three-month road trip across your own country?

Dave Garrison

I'd rather live abroad for a year, because I learn as much, if not more, about my own country from abroad.

Stacey Caster

Oh, love that.

Dave Garrison

I learn what's different. You know, when I started traveling, I was fortunate enough to be CEO of a company that was in 55 countries. What I learned internationally are assumptions that are different, that I thought everybody had the same assumption and I learned oh, that's an American assumption. So I got to learn about America from being in other countries. Very well said, and it's so true. It's so true. Love it, okay. Last question Would you want to go back and do them again? No way, because everything has led me right here, to all the gifts that I've accumulated and all the opportunities I have, and if I changed any one element of what happened in the past, I wouldn't have the opportunities I do today. So it's definitely a pause button.

Stacey Caster

Yeah, I completely agree, the things that happen to us in our lives. They're meant to be and we are who we are today because of those moments in our lives the good, bad, the ugly, all the above. And so I love your thoughts on leveraging the pause, too so much. You gave our listeners some really great tips and if they want more, they can access the book. We're going to have a link to that in our show notes for everyone to be able to get to the book if they'd like to. Super exciting, I think. What I'm hearing is pause, ask questions, seek to understand, help people be more collaborative and listen to what they're saying. So really, really great pieces and appreciate your time today, dave.

Dave Garrison

Stacey, thank you so much. You know, I'm so grateful that Amazon had cited this as the best new book on culture. There are ideas to use here. Our job is to spread the word about how to improve results through human beings. You can download a free chapter if you want, at buyinbookcom B-U-Y-I-N-B-O-O-Kcom. Stacey, thanks for having me.

Final Thoughts and Fun Questions

Tracy-Ann Palmer

If you enjoyed the show, please go to leadershipmomentspodcastcom to subscribe to the podcast or on your favorite player, as well as follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn.

Stacey Caster

You can also send us a message on what you like and don't like or what guest you want us to have on the show. So until next time, this is Stacey Castor, and what does it challenge? You won't change you.

Tracy-Ann Palmer

And I'm Tracey-Ann Palmer. Be the change you wish to see in the world.