Mastering Conflict: Strategies for Leaders to Navigate Disagreements with James Chicanot

James Chicano is a nationally recognized conflict resolution expert, facilitator, and leadership coach with over 25 years of experience. He specializes in helping leaders navigate high-stress and high-stakes challenges with clarity and composure. James has worked on hundreds of complex cases across both the public and private sectors, focusing on workplace conflict, organizational change, team dysfunction, and multi-stakeholder tension. 

He emphasizes the importance of being "conflict competent" as a leader and discusses the need to hone skills that many leaders often overlook, including negotiation, mediation, and coaching. Throughout the conversation, James imparts valuable insights into the nature of conflict and how it can be transformed into a constructive force for organizational improvement.

James underscores the critical competencies required for effective conflict management, such as emotional intelligence, assertiveness, and deep listening. Attuned to the dynamics of modern workplaces, he also shares unconventional methodologies like breathwork to manage tension, encouraging leaders to explore new ways of fostering healthy communication and understanding.

Key Takeaways:

• Conflict Competency: Leaders need to develop conflict management skills, including negotiation and facilitation, which are often underemphasized in traditional leadership training.
• Attitude, Process, and Skills: These three dimensions—attitude towards conflict, processes for resolution, and specific skills like deep listening and empathy—are crucial in managing disagreements effectively.
• Emotional Regulation: Techniques like breathwork can help leaders and employees alike manage emotions and maintain focus during challenging conversations.
• Curiosity and Listening: Staying open and curious, coupled with deep listening, can open pathways to understanding and resolving conflicts constructively.
• Owning the Approach: Leaders must decide and own their role in a conflict, choosing between engagement, coaching, or facilitation strategies to manage tensions effectively.

Notable Quotes:

1. "Conflict is a phenomenon of difference, and it occurs all over. The question is, what strategies are available to deal with it?"
2. "In my mind, we have to be very deliberate about how we engage in conflict."
3. "Leaders are expected to have a multitude of different capacities when addressing conflict."
4. "Effective communication is the creation of shared meaning—it doesn't mean we agree, but we have a sense of where we're each coming from."

Resources:

• James Chicano on LinkedIn
• University of Victoria: Website (implicit reference)
• For more episodes like this and to remain updated, connect through the "Leadership Moments" podcast on Instagram and LinkedIn.

All episodes and guest requests can be found at:
www.leadershipmomentspodcast.com
Follow Stacey Caster on Instagram @staceycaster_
Follow Tracy-Ann Palmer on Instagram @tracy_ann_palmer

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

You have to walk the talk. You have to be authentic as a leader. If you're not doing it, they see that.

SPEAKER_03 0:07

It is entirely universal. Just have the people who are going through this.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

For me, a great leader needs to be able to marry three things: vision, systems, and people.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

Welcome to Leadership Moments if this is your first time. And if you are returning, thank you for your support.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

This show is about leaders from all walks of life, leadership tips, and maybe even a little of what you wouldn't expect to help you in leadership.

Meet Conflict Expert James Chicano

SPEAKER_03 0:35

We would appreciate it if you tell someone else about our podcast as we strive to support all leaders that want to just be better. Let's get on with the show. Today our guest is James Chicano. James is a nationally recognized conflict resolution expert, facilitator, and leadership coach with over 25 years of experience helping leaders navigate high stakes, high stress challenges, with clarity and composure. James has worked on hundreds of complex and diverse cases supporting leaders through workplace conflict, organizational change, teen dysfunction, and multi-stakeholder tension across both public and private sector. James lives in Victoria, British Columbia, on a small farm where he avidly grows vegetables and spends lots of time outdoors with his dog. Whether in the field or in the boardroom, James tries to approach each moment with clarity of purpose, genuine care, and a deep sense of curiosity. Today we are going to go deep on how you can enhance your skills to be better during conflict. Let's jump in. James, I'm really excited to have you on our show today because you have this great background with mediation, negotiation, and conflict resolution. And where I want to start is how you got into this type of work. So could you tell our listeners a little bit about that?

A Campus Incident Sparks A Career

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Hmm. Well, first of all, it's a pleasure to be here, Stacey. Thank you for inviting me. I guess when I think back, it really does go back about 25 years. I can barely believe it. And the story that comes to mind is I was finishing a degree at the University of Victoria. I'm in British Columbia, and um, the campus has a ring road around it. So you can kind of walk around, it's roughly a mile kind of around. And at the time, I'm mid-20s, I have this very active and sort of alpha male German Shepherd dog. We were very closely bonded. I was kind of him and I on a bit of a mission. So my tendency with him would be when there was deserted roads, because I worked a fair bit in the forest industry, uh, I'd open the back window, I'd say, okay, he would jump out, run for a bit, jump back in the car. So that was kind of our tradition. So this one morning, I arrive at university. I'm just about to start a one-week seminar course. It's early in the morning. It's a lovely campus. One thing about the campus, though, it's kind of notorious. It's overrun with rabbits. So there are rabbits everywhere, and one can imagine why that's the case. So rabbits everywhere, and now, and I'm driving around and there's nobody about. It's very quiet. Rabbits sort of scurrying here and there, dogs in the back of the vehicle. So I say, you know, I'm just about to head to class, give me a little exercise. I say, okay, he jumps out. I drive a bit. Um, we do our thing, I stop, jump in, he jumps back in. Then out of sort of nowhere, some guy sort of rushes up to the vehicle and starts sort of yelling at me and accusing me of of, you know, disrupting the rabbits. And this is this is, you know, pet abuse. And what are you doing that I'm gonna call security? So I'm taken aback. I react quite strongly. I was a little rough around the edges back then. So I'm getting kind of worked up, and then him and I are having words, and I just end up speeding enough and you know, maybe a hand gesture, who knows? But that was sort of like your action. But the irony was, you know, I was a little unsettled over that. But the irony was I was just beginning, the course I was going to was conflict resolution through negotiation. So I went from an elevated conflict where I kind of lost my composure, doing something maybe a little stupid, to an actual confrontation. And then I'm about to learn about what do you do in these situations and negotiate your way out of them. And the weird thing is kind of ironic and serendipitous. The person who was teaching the course turned out to be my mentor and my eventual business partner who I worked with for the last 25 years. So that I mean, that was a seminal moment, and then everything that came after that was sort of education and training and this and that. Um, but I think that was a bit of a catalyst. I realized I don't know what I'm doing here. I got very upset. Um, but then I started to learn there's a way to do this better and get a grip on yourself. So that was kind of uh a bit of a catalyst for getting me into the field, and then I met the person that sort of mentored me into it.

Why Leaders Need Negotiation Skills

SPEAKER_03 4:37

I love that story. Yeah, that's great. What's great about that is you took something that was happening personally in your life and immediately tied it to what you were learning in school and then making a career out of it. And often we go to school knowing what we want to do, but sometimes we're we're not thinking about what we do every day and how the two tie together. And this is simply just you taking your dog out and kind of what happens in your life. So, all right, so you you met someone and obviously your teacher at the time. Yeah. You say, okay, I can resonate with what happened earlier in that day. How do I actually negotiate a little bit better? So, what are some things that you can tell our listeners? Like when when we talk about leadership skills, we talk a lot about conflict resolution.

unknown 5:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

What I really like is you talk about negotiation and mediation. And those are two words that are not typically discussed in the professional world outside of being a lawyer or something like that, right? But if I think of a sales leader or a technology leader or someone in HR, you don't talk about those two things very often. So tell me a little bit more about what does that mean as a leader and why is it important for me to think about negotiation and mediation?

Conflict-Competent Leadership Defined

The Three Dimensions: Attitude, Process, Skills

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Okay. I guess, you know, we have to think about first of all, let's zoom out a bit in terms about conflict itself. The phenomenon of difference or disagreement, which occurs all the time and occurs as in our professional lives. We're leading teams, people aren't getting along. I disagree with a director in another department, uh, there's different goals and strategic priorities. So conflict is a phenomenon of difference, right? Um, and it's it occurs in our personal lives, it occurs all over the place. But the question then becomes not is conflict um there, it's when it does exist, what strategies and processes are available to deal with it. So when we think about conflict and dispute, which are slightly different but connected, dispute at my mind is a concrete disagreement. So you and my you and I might have conflicting views and philosophies and ideas that are quite broad, but if we disagree about a specific something, that something is typically called a disagreement or a dispute. Now the question we have to ask ourselves as leaders is uh, you know, if there is conflict or dispute, that I have some responsibility to consider. The question we have to ask ourselves first is do I engage? Do I participate in that in some way, shape, or form? Now, sometimes we have no choice because it's our job. Um, but then the next question is how? So is this something that can be negotiated, i.e., you and I can get together and problem solve together. That's basically negotiation, trying to work something out when we share a problem or disagreement. But a lot of people just fall into something and they're in a conflict or disagreement and they're not actively recognizing that this is an act of negotiation. They're just behaving in a way that is patterned or instinctual or reactive. So in my mind, we have to be very deliberate about how do we engage in conflict. And my basic thesis these days, and the thing I'm I'm really focused on, is conflict competent leadership. Because in my experience, for 25 years doing this work, um engaging with leaders of all kinds, many of them are under de have underdeveloped that skill and competency. It's not that they're not great uh operators, great administrators, have other poor leadership skills, but when you put them in a hotbed of disagreement and conflict, many of us don't have the skills and the aptitude to deal with that effectively and efficiently and con confidently. So there's often a skilled gap and a proficiency gap in the gap navigating conflict as a leader. So my my you know current sort of fixation is how do we equip people to become better at engaging in disagreement and difference, whether through negotiation, actively you and I, or mediation, I call it even facilitation, where the leader is helping others deal with the conflict or have a better discussion about what could disagree about. So in my mind, leaders are a number of has. One day you and I might be negotiating, or I'm dealing with a customer who's upset. I'm negotiating an outcome over a complaint. Uh the next day, uh there might be two members of the team who are not getting along and who are coming to me complaining about that. I then might get them together and help them discuss with my assistants the nature of their uh disagreement, their concerns, and how to work through that. So I'm going from sort of negotiator, one hat, to kind of mediating, facilitating another hat. And in another case, you know, I might be coaching an employee about how to get along with somebody that they work with. So leaders are expected to have a multitude of different kinds of uh uh capacities when they're when they're expected to address conflict. Negotiation being one of them, kind of mediation facilitation skills being another, coaching being another. So I think a great deal is demanded of leaders in the conflict realm, and they're often um underserved in their education and their development to become more conflict proficient or conflict.

SPEAKER_03 9:50

I love the way that you divide that up. And one key piece that you just said that I think is so important is you have to own it, right? Now, owning it can be I'm not going to engage. I'm owning that I'm not going to engage. Often as leaders, we must engage. Um, and when we engage, which part are we owning? Um, and owning that uh we can meet halfway or we can figure out what that is. And I really like that it's not just conflict or negotiation or mediation. It kind of depends on the scenario and what's happening. And you might be doing one or the other, or maybe even all three when you're kind of working through it, is what I'm hearing from you, uh, which is really important. And I do agree that uh this is something that it's kind of just expected of you as a leader to just know how to do. And I would say that kind of leads into uh better communication, which you can say is emotional intelligence and understanding, you know, awareness of how other people might be feeling and thinking. So, what are some of the key attributes that people can maybe walk away with with some tools from this around, okay, if I'm thinking about negotiation, mediation, conflict resolution, like where do we go from here as a leader? Where would be a good next step to try to understand this and elevate our skills?

Four Core Skills: EQ, Curiosity, Listening, Assertiveness

Language Choices That Lower Defenses

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Yeah, and Stacey, I appreciate where you're saying that we have to look inwards at some level too. What part of this is mine? What responsibility do I have to respond to that? Because part of our conflict handling um style or the method in which we we show up depends on our looking inwards and asking those questions. Who am I in the doing of this? So, what I like to encourage people to think about is three dimensions of engagement, right? So conflict does exist. And as you say, leaders sometimes can't opt out. When somebody complains, I want to go to the boss, who's your manager? When you're expected to take on a responsibility to negotiate uh with the customer or a client, that's your job. So the responsibility often lies before various leaders to do this. So I think that the three things that people need to pay attention to, first of all, it's a bit sort of under the surface, which I call attitude. Now, each of us have a set of attitudes, which are sort of beliefs, core values, kind of fundamental theories, whether we're conscious of them or not, about how to engage, how to read people, how to deal with difficult interactions. So part of it is attitudinal, which is also a measure of the culture of our organization. So, what does our organization expect us to be? Who do we show up and the kinds of values that we're expected to demonstrate? So attitude is all about the sort of inner stuff that then affects those other two dimensions that I think you know people really need to pay attention to. One of those dimensions, and this is often neglected, process. So there's attitude, which is the inner stuff, but process is all about how. Many negotiations or conflict resolution activities fail or break down or are less effective because they lack process. And by process, I simply mean is there some methodology or direction in which this discussion or interaction is going? Do I have a framework? Do I have a model? Do I have a set of things I'm intentionally doing along the way to produce some kind of result? Most people are not aware of process because they're fixated on content. So people care mostly about what's the subject matter, what's the disagreement about it when they're not paying attention to how are we having this disagreement, which is all about process. So I would strongly encourage people to think about it. There's a number of different models or methodologies or frameworks to help us in a difficult conversation sort of follow. And I don't mean a recipe, but some stages or steps that we should be attentive to. Everything from how do we start to how do we define what we disagree about or what we need to talk about? What about focusing on our values and our objectives? Then taking account of that and considering options and solutions, right? So that's a process. But the other key dimension is what I call skills. And we all know what skills are. They're performable actions, they're tactics, they're particular things we can do in the moment. When you were talking about emotional intelligence, that's a skill set. So if you're getting upset and I identify with that and acknowledge it, that's the skill of empathy, right? Now, if you're being um positional and resistant and I ask you an open-ended question, that's uh a curiosity skill, right? So there's a whole set of skills that people um are certainly going to benefit from if they apply in situations of conflict. So I certainly recommend people think about when we own attitudes around conflict and resolution. Who am I as a leader? What's expected of me in my role to help others navigate disagreement and difference? How does that influence the process, how I engage, skills, what I do in the moment? And there's some, you know, I would say there's probably you know, if I could boil this down to four key competent competencies, one would be what you've already raised. This whole notion of kind of emotional intelligence, emotional fitness, well-being, your ability to read others to I would say self-regulate, downregulate, and be able to get a grip on your own emotion and your sort of ego kind of uh interruption that gets interferired reactivity. So there's a whole emotional component there. The other component I think is curiosity. Are we able to be the question asker and in such a way that it opens up a possibility and novelty community information? Um and and the way we ask questions, how we both include curiosity, I think and then again connected to listening, but is the thing sorry, connected to sort of emotional acuity, but is deep listening. And I just don't mean hearing the words and sort of filtering out a bunch so I can talk. I mean actively deconstructing the incoming meaning that I'm uh picking up. And it's it's hard, it's particularly difficult if I disagree with what I'm hearing. So I'm not inclined to listen well if what I'm hearing uh is something that I don't don't tend to agree with. What I want to do is I want to judge it, evaluate it, or disagree with it. So listening, and we do that by reflecting, feeding back, mirroring back, repeating back, in our own words, from time to time, what we're understanding, whether or not we agree with it. So we have emotional and cord of intelligence and fitness, we've got curiosity, we've got listening, and they're all coupled. And then I think the other piece is um assertiveness or expressiveness. You need to be able to assert what matters to you in a disagreement or in a conflict situation. What I don't need is tell the other person how wrong they are. What I mean is articulate in positive terms what you want, need, or concerned about, and ensure that that's taken into account in any conversation or problem-solving events. So I think those are four categories that really are skill development areas that most of us, most of humankind, um, could could develop further.

SPEAKER_03 16:45

Yeah, I really like those. And those are uh core and near and dear. So a couple things. When you talk about attitude, uh, to me, I do a lot of work with generational workforce. And a lot of that is about what what are you going in with your assumptions? What are you, what is your experience versus the other person's experience? And I kind of hear that a little bit um with what you're talking about. And so, and the staying curious piece, right? If we can stay curious, it like it opens up so many doors of saying, okay, this is how I think, but how are you seeing it? What lens are you looking through? Um, really so important. And then the other piece that you kind of talked about was the um the listening. And I always say, are you listening to respond or are you listening to understand?

SPEAKER_01 17:33

There you go.

SPEAKER_03 17:34

And if you're listening to understand, then you will automatically have the response that's necessary because that's part of staying curious. That's part of trying to understand. And with that understanding, it is sometimes it's more questions. I like that you give those pieces of like the mirroring, like, how do I do that? There's a lot of people that don't understand how to leverage mirroring in communication and those different ways of communicating that you mentioned. So I appreciate that you brought some of those tools up for our listeners to understand and help with how do I connect with someone that maybe I'm not seeing eye to eye with, right? And what kind of questions to ask.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

And those things don't typically come naturally in a disagreement because what tends to take over some degree of defensiveness, trying to prove your point, trying to evaluate the the you know, the inadequacy of their argument or what have you. So we don't have a sort of curious posture, if you will. And it is a discipline to simply, as you were demonstrating, ask those kind of open-ended, curious questions. Help me understand what is it about such and such that's important to you? How did you come to understand da-da-da-da-da? You know, when you talked about so-and-so, help me know what that means for you. The questions are phrased in such a way that it elicits um a different quality of response. But what I think is that good open questions, curiosity creates a listening opportunity. So if I ask you an open, insightful question, the response to that gives me the opportunity to listen to understand. Now, I don't have to agree, Stacy, with a single word you say, but I can still listen carefully to what you're trying to convey. Because I would suggest that effective communication is the creation of shared meaning. Doesn't mean we agree, but we're having a pretty good sense of where we're each coming from. And in conflict resolution, negotiation, solving problems, we have to have a pretty good grasp on where we're each coming from in order to solve or at least make better sense of uh what we're involved in together.

SPEAKER_03 19:30

Yeah. And I think words matter. Like, for example, uh, I had someone that years ago said, Stacy, say this differently. Because what I would say is, I disagree. And then I would give my statement. And they're like, actually, you see it differently. And so I changed the words from then on. And like I said, this was years ago, where I say, I see it differently. I see that, and it immediately calms the situation. Because once you disagree, there's a guard up, right? And there's so much studies out there that when you're frustrated or angry or whatever, literally the hormones in our body will block the rational side of our brain and we cannot communicate well. And so being able to stay calm and stay open-minded and stay curious is so important. And I'd love to know like, have you had people that you've worked with that they get so frustrated or they um maybe, and what I find is people that might be more self-conscious and um, that they tend to put their guard up longer. Have you worked with anyone like that? And what are some of the tools to help someone where they can get to that curious state and not be so guarded?

Working With Guarded People

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Well, I mean a couple of things. And I yeah, I worked with a pile of them. It's not uncommon that people are quite guarded because conflict for many people is um it features uncertainty and fear. So when people are fearful or uncertain, they believe they have something to protect. And as you rightly point out, our brain shifts from the kind of executive function, you know, the prefrontal cortex where you can reason and explain and make decisions to the more sort of primitive fight-flight, our sympathetic nervous system uh takes over. And then our ability to kind of access those skills, be a little more deliberate, pause, slow down, is diminished. It kind of goes offline. And that defensive mechanism is there as a coping mechanism, which if you're being, you know, uh chased by wild animals, a damn good thing. But if you're actually having a conversation with your coworker, it doesn't serve you as well. I think guarded, a couple of things about guardedness. I think one of them is um there can be an acknowledgement of it. We can normalize and acknowledge that it's not uncommon that people will be somewhat uncertain or a bit uh guarded about the nature of what this discussion is about. So normalizing and acknowledging can be one way. The other thing I think is guardedness typically is hiding something. By that I mean there's probably something that's important that is being masked by this need to protect. And usually that something is a positive need or desire or value that is being protected. And if we can try to identify that for that other person in positive terms, that can sometimes create a bit of an opening. A bit of an opening because we're identifying the thing that's being protected. Because in conflict, many people do think that their values, their objectives, the thing that are important are being threatened. So they want to somehow protect that. So they put walls up. And then the other thing, we've talked a bit about this, is the nature and the quality of the question. So if someone's being resistant or guarded, that should be a great um indicator for us to ask them uh an open-ended sort of probing question. Notice that and simply say, what is it about such and such that's causing some concern here? I'm picking up that when we're trying to have this discussion, there's a sense that it's hard to get to what really matters. And I'm interested in that and I'd like to know more about. So sometimes those questions can can help elicit uh a bit of an opening as well. So it kind of goes back to some of those core skills about curiosity and the quality of the question. Acknowledging and normalizing that people being somewhat guarded or um protected is is to be expected in conflict because something matters. And then sometimes there's there's also a skill to see what would it take for us to kind of open this conversation up in a way that is comfortable and feels a little more, I don't I don't want to use the word safe, but but you could perhaps get in a drift that would encourage a degree of uh willingness to be a little more uh exposed. And that's hard because a lot of people in conflict don't entirely trust the person that they're interacting with because there's a sense of fear there.

Managing Your Own Frustration

SPEAKER_03 23:38

Yeah, it kind of goes back to the good intentions, right? Like everyone has good intentions. People don't wake up and say, you know what, I'm gonna make your day miserable today. Like it just doesn't happen. And so when you're in this conflict and you're sensing this frustration and maybe holding back, saying, and I love how you say it's because there's something really good there. And so seeking out what is that good that they're trying to convey that maybe they're having a hard time doing and asking those open-ended questions. And I love those examples that you gave. Now, what if I'm the one that I know I'm so frustrated right now and I cannot communicate the way that I want to because I'm just, I'm just not happy that the I wasn't expecting this dispute, I wasn't expecting this pushback, and I cannot communicate the way that I know I want to. And I know that this frustration is holding me back. What are some recommendations for the individual when they're feeling that?

Breathwork And Unconventional Aids

SPEAKER_01 24:37

Well, a couple of things. Like if you and I are in the in the situation whereby you're feeling that degree of frustration and you're aware enough to know that you're not gonna be at your best, and this is hard to do, but to actually um reveal that that's what you're feeling. So I could say, Stacey, I'm having a real tough time of this. I feel quite frustrated. This really has been a difficult uh set of uh, you know, interactions that we've had. And I'm just trying my best to kind of stay composed because I really want to work this out with you, but for now I might just need a minute. So to put to put the other person in touch with your own feeling experience without blame or accusation to them. So I'm not saying it's your fault that I'm frustrated. I'm simply saying I feel this way because this matters. So that's a sort of, you know, being somewhat transparent and a bit of a non-defensive response. So I'm not defending something, I'm being transparent about what I'm feeling in the moment. Now, sometimes that can lead to I just need a few minutes, can we return to this? So a bit of a break. That's a process issue. The other thing is the quickest way, frankly, to down-regulate emotional kind of uh escalation is breathing. So um, you know, I do some uh kind of quote unquote on the side, but I incorporate it a fair bit into my work uh is this notion of being very aware of your breath and how your breath is affecting where your nervous system is. Because when we are frustrated and emotionally elevated, we move to the sympathetic nervous system. So our breath is more shallow, we often speak more quickly, um, and our inability to access that kind of prefrontal, kind of more reasoned part of our brain is getting um turned up. So by slowing down the breath and breathing, if you can, in and out through your nose, extended exhalations actually has a calming effect on the nervous system immediately. So it's it's a little hack that one can do in the moment to down-regulate your own emotional response so that hopefully you kind of come back online and that you can kind of convey the kind of words that you want without that frustration or emotion, you know, overtaking you. So that's a sort of little kind of breathwork hack, if you will. Um, and I guess another thing would be um to simply I think back to the first point, maybe express where the frustration's coming from without blame or accusation. Because blame and accusation to the other is almost an inevitable trigger for some degree of escalation or defensiveness. So you could talk about how you feel and try not to necessarily demonstrate the feeling. So I feel extremely frustrated. I've I've tried on a number of occasions, Stacey, to get this soul. And at every turn, there's been a block along the way, and I'm at my wit's end, and I'm finding it really hard to continue because I've really tried hard, but I want to get this result. So being forthcoming about what you feel, explaining where that comes from without, again, blame an accusation of the other. There are a couple of ways to do that. But I would suggest that the inner game, the inside job of um, you know, negotiation concept resolution is a lot of where that is. How do I and I often talk about zooming out. Now it's hard to do if you're caught up in the emotional moment, but it's a metaphor. And another author talks about going to the balcony, not literally walking out of a room and going to a balcony, but can you kind of zoom out and be the noticer of the experience you're having? That makes any sense. It might sound a bit out there. But the idea is if I am frustrated and I can react based on that frustration, or I can notice that I'm frustrated and detach somewhat and be the observer of that and get a bit of a grip on it rather than let it get a grip on me. That makes some sense.

SPEAKER_03 28:02

Yeah, those are great. And um, I love that you bring up the breathing piece because in my coaching, I actually talk with a lot of leaders about that and how it's such a simple thing. And it it's great if you can do like a really deep breath and go out slowly. But it the trick is it's really just recognizing where your breathing is. And you probably will realize, wow, I am doing some short breaths here right now, and just kind of slowing it down and how powerful that can be. And it's it really, even though you're might be in a public situation, it's a private solution that a lot of people don't really recognize that you're doing. So I think those that part was really good.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

Yeah, don't know if it sounds like a, but I'm incorporating some breath work into actual mediations because people come in sort of amped up. And it's not like they're they come to a breathwork seminar, but sometimes I'll give them a bit of coaching beforehand that if and when you feel like reacting or getting in that isolated, take just take a moment, take a couple of slow deep breaths, and that might help calm you know you the feelings that you're having about this. And sometimes a couple of times, depending on the receptivity of the participants, I've done a three or four minute kind of breath work, kind of calming, grounding, you know, five seconds in, five seconds out, um, breath work kind of starter. So it sets a bit of a tone and it gets people connected and a bit more embodied. So I'm in touch with kind of what those sensations are like and I have some control over them. And I think people are becoming more receptive to that. And I just wrote this little piece on less conventional ways to engage in this stuff. Because we've been pretty tried and true to practice, but what about expanding um the repertoire of modalities that might help people, you know, deal with these things uh and go outside kind of the norms that we're used to doing? So breath work is one of them, incorporating, you know, changed environments, uh, music, all sorts of different ways to help people um connect differently uh in the midst, particularly they have conflict and disagreement.

Preparation, Timing, And Energy

SPEAKER_03 29:53

Love that. Love that. That's awesome. I also liked how you said the balcony. And to me, that's like if you were Uh, you know, on the wall, flower on the wall, looking at your situation right now. How would you show up? And just really like, are you showing up the way you want to? And sometimes we are so frustrated and so emotional that we can't do that. Or we're like, yeah, I know I'm not showing up well right now, but I love you some of the tricks that you said. So important that you express yourself, but try to stay calm and not show up as that, right? Like, I'm really frustrated right now. I'm having a hard time having this conversation. I love that you recognize and say the words like, this is about me. And I just, I like, I want to hear you. I want to have a great conversation. I want to get to a solution, but I'm just, I need a minute. And being able to tell the person, like, I'm not shutting you out. I know that we need to get there and I want to get there, but I need a minute to be able to get there. And uh really key points that you added to that.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

And I think that shows respect and regard for the other person. It shows that I'm taking this seriously. And it there are times, of course, where maybe it isn't the time and place to have this conversation. So, process, you know, the obviously the first I think place to start is preparation and readiness. Am I ready to have this conversation? Now, sometimes we don't have the luxury of being forewarned where we're going to get into a difficult interaction. So we're just in it and then we react and emotions elevate. But in other cases, we can plan for and try to organize how and when we show up for these discussions and prepare ourselves and plan to do it in a way that hopefully we can do some practices in advance, right time of day. You know, you've you've had a very, you know, you've taken care of yourself because these are quite um, you know, energy consuming interactions. Uh, and they they take a fair bit of emotional sort of wherewithal to be able to participate and show up as you wish. So planning and preparing for that is also a good idea when you have the luxury to do that.

Rapid-Fire Fun Questions

SPEAKER_03 31:56

Yeah, really good points. And the energy is very real. I'm glad that you brought that up. Truly is. All right. Well, there's that sound. It's time for our fun questions. Are you ready for our fun questions?

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Absolutely ready.

SPEAKER_03 32:10

Okay, great. The first one is would you rather have the ability to play any musical instrument perfectly or be a naturally gifted artist who can draw or paint anything? I'm gonna go with the musical instrument.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

It's funny, I was I I this is a bit of a weird um confession. I was driving to the gym this morning, which I do every morning, and I sometimes just daydream a bit, and I saw the lottery thing. It said 40 million. And I thought, if I won that 40, what would I do? And I think I would spend a huge amount of time learning specific things, one of them being an instrument. And then I thought, what instrument would it be? Um, and I think it would start with the drums of all instruments. I've always been fascinated by curcussion. I play a little hand drums, you know, as an amateur, but I love drumming. So I think that I would probably start there. And if I could uh the exceptional, that would be fabulous.

SPEAKER_03 32:55

Love it. Okay, would you rather have coffee that's always lukewarm or never drink coffee again?

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Always lukewarm. I love it. But let me just say, I love my hot beverages piping hot and my cold beverages ice cold. The only thing I'll deal with at room temperature is water.

SPEAKER_03 33:14

Really? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

We've established it in the household. Uh, it's gotta be this or that. Um, you know, and I'm very particular about that site.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

So that was a perfect question for you since you were. Yeah. All right. Last question. Would you rather have your life narrated by Morgan Freeman or scored like a movie soundtrack?

SPEAKER_01 33:38

Scored like a movie soundtrack for sure. Yeah. All day long. Yeah. I hope it would be a well, it could have positive rhythm and a lot of kind of variation, maybe a little reggae thrown in there, some some variation. And I grew up in in Southern Africa. So if you could throw in a little of that, I think that would be that would be great. So yeah. Love it.

SPEAKER_03 33:56

Love it. Well, great, James. Thank you so much. You gave some great tips to our listeners. Really appreciate everything that you've given us. I know that people are going to walk away with some good nuggets from our conversation today.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

A pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much, Stacey.

Closing Thanks And Listener CTA

SPEAKER_02 34:14

If you enjoyed the show, please go to LeadershipMomentspodcast.com to subscribe to the podcast or on your favorite player, as well as follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_03 34:26

You can also send us a message on what you like and don't like or what guests you want us to have on the show. So until next time, this is Stacy Caster, and what doesn't challenge you won't change you.

SPEAKER_02 34:35

And I'm Tracy Ann Palmer. Be the change you wish to see in the world.