Building Trust and Intimacy: A Journey to Personal and Professional Growth w/ Carol Schultz

Carol Schultz is founder and CEO of Vertical Elevation and as a fractional chief of staff, leveraging her vast experience to help startups and executives streamline processes, build effective teams, and enhance communication within organizations. Carol is also an accomplished author, sharing her insights and experiences in her published works.

In this episode, Carol joins host Stacy to shed light on a pivotal topic that influences both personal and professional realms—trust and intimacy. The conversation is anchored by Carol's personal journey, revealing how early life experiences shaped her challenges in forming meaningful relationships. Through candid storytelling, Carol shares a crucial moment of realization and the steps she undertook to overcome these obstacles, thus influencing her career path into coaching and leadership development.

Carol further dissects her extensive recruiting experience, offering a unique perspective on the hiring landscape. With a focus on the evolving role of professional headhunters in the digital age, she emphasizes the importance of taking a proactive approach to job searching and recruiting. The narrative delves into her current role as a fractional chief of staff, highlighting the strategic advantages of this position. She discusses how leaders can benefit from having a chief of staff, drawing comparisons with the transformation she has facilitated for startups and larger organizations. 

Key Takeaways:

• Trust and Intimacy Issues: Many personal and professional relationship challenges stem from trust and intimacy issues, often rooted in early life experiences. Identifying and addressing these blind spots is crucial.
• Proactive Job Searching: Candidates should actively pursue networking opportunities and build connections within companies they admire, rather than relying solely on online applications.
• Role of a Chief of Staff: The chief of staff position is vital in facilitating streamlined communication and operational efficiency across executive teams, acting as a crucial link and support to CEOs.
• Effective Recruiting Practices: The recruitment process should be treated as a strategic function rather than an administrative one, with emphasis on high-level planning and personal engagement.
• Importance of Communication: Clear and transparent communication is essential in maintaining strong organizational culture and ensuring alignment of roles and responsibilities.

Notable Quotes:

1. "Once the blind spots are no longer in a blind spot, you can start to put structures in place to keep it from limiting you and your progress."
2. "When you don't trust people, my behavior toward people kept anybody from getting close to me."
3. "The Internet has been both good and both really, really bad… because it made it easier for companies to post longer job ads."
4. "Properly done, headhunting is a high-level strategic sales job."

All episodes and guest requests can be found at:
www.leadershipmomentspodcast.com
Follow Stacey Caster on Instagram @staceycaster_
Follow Tracy-Ann Palmer on Instagram @tracy_ann_palmer

Transcript

Opening Credo: Walk The Talk

SPEAKER_03 0:01

You have to walk the talk. You have to be authentic as a leader. If you're not doing it, they see that.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

It is entirely universal. There's other people who are going through this.

SPEAKER_03 0:11

For me, a great leader needs to be able to marry three things: vision, systems, and people.

Show Welcome And Guest Intro

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Welcome to Leadership Moments. If this is your first time, and if you are returning, thank you for your support.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

This show is about leaders from all walks of life, leadership tips, and maybe even a little of what you wouldn't expect to help you in leadership.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

We would appreciate it if you tell someone else about our podcast as we strive to support all leaders that want to just be better. Let's get on with the show. Today our guest is Carol Schultz. Carol is the CEO of Vertical Elevation and an Inc. magazine columnist. She helps CEOs stop running their companies and start leading

Trust, Vulnerability, And Leadership

SPEAKER_02 0:54

them. She draws on decades of experience as a recruiter and an executive coach to deliver the Chief of Staff Scaffold System, a nine-step program that teaches founders to restructure their time, delegate effectively, and refocus on growth. Today we are going to talk about trust, vulnerability, and why you may want to consider having a chief of staff for yourself. Let's jump in. Carol, I'm so excited that you're here with us today because when you and I were talking before the show, you have a great story and something that not everybody wants to talk about, but really needs to talk about. And that's really how trust and intimacy impacts your life, not just professionally, but also personally too. And I'd love for you to start off by sharing that story with our listeners.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Yeah, happy to, Stacey. As, you know, as I said, you know, I would, I would not be practicing what I preach to my own clients if it were not for the fact that I have to be, you know, vulnerable and you know, authentic myself in this in the things that have happened in my own life. So if I go back, we'll try to give you the high level here. If I go back many years, I started my training and development work that turned into coaching training in 1998. And it was probably was, I was coaching my first course. It was probably, well, it was pre-9-11 because the towers were still standing. So in New York. So it was probably in 2000, two years later, two and a half years later. And I had, let me just digress. I had been in therapy before this. Okay. And then I started doing this work. And I was uh uh, like I said, coaching, learning how to coach in my first course. We

The Blind Spot Revelation

SPEAKER_01 2:47

were in the bar, the whole coaching team, at the end of this Saturday, um, in the bar on the ground floor of building one of the World Trade Center. I can see it as if it were yesterday, almost 25 years later. And um the person who was leading this, Heath Robbins, said he put down his cocktail and he looked at me and he said, Carol, you have trust and intimacy issues. And I was like, Oh, right. It was like the light bulb went on ding, ding, ding, ding, you know. And it was, it was, it had been so deep in a blind spot for me. I mean, it was without somebody telling me, I was, it was never coming out, right? And, you know, as you know, once you start, once you have that, once the blind spot's no longer in a blind spot, once you discover what this issue is, now you can start to put structures in place to keep it from limiting you and your progress. But those trust and intimacy issues happened when I was a child. Many of these things come as when we're when we're younger, right? I had been, I had had sexual abuse in my life. And, you know, a lot of that, I believe trust and intimacy issues go along hand in hand, right? If you don't trust people, you can't really have an intimate. Whether it's a um uh, you know, uh an intimate partner or one of your best friends, you can't really get and have that kind of a relationship. And it affected every part of my life, it affected my personal life. I never had a I couldn't get into relationships because the men I chose fulfilled trust and intimacy issues, right? You know, so they just you know, and this is what happens, it's it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. So as I continued to work on this, like you said, it it affected my my business life because you know, when you don't trust people, it I I mean, my behavior toward people kept anybody from getting close to me. People wanted to. And all kinds of nice men that wanted to date me. Nope, but never interested. So it took me a long time to be able to, you know, become healthy enough. I mean, I had to stop dating for years, you know, to actually to work on these things to open myself up to to um, you know, be able to to actually have a trustful and intimate relationship with anybody, really.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Yeah, and when, you know, first of all, let's just talk about this per uh Heath is was the name, right? Actually telling you that had to be so difficult for him and difficult for you to hear. So kudos to you for like hearing it and saying, Oh, yeah, I need to think about this. And this is not something that you just turn around the next day and change. This is years of work, right? Um, and thank you for sharing this because one, you recognize the why, you recognize the steps that you took along the way and how that impacted you professionally and personally, right? I chose the men I dated for a reason. I chose the people that I talk to at work for a reason and the way that I talk to them and how that would impact you. Because if you don't trust other people, they're gonna see that and they're not gonna trust you either. And so when you think about getting close relationships, whether it's intimate or not, if it's friendship, if it's colleagues, peers, whatever, you can't build that without trust. It's so important. So I'd love for you to say, like, okay, what are some of the things that you are doing behind the actually, you know what? Before you do that, when we were talking, you mentioned about your hair. And I'd love for you to tell our audience that because it's so profound

Hiding Behind My Hair

SPEAKER_02 6:46

of how much this really was for you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

So I've always had a lot of hair. I still do. Um, the difference was back then um I had a perm. Perms were in. It was my hair was like fabulous and curly. And I was taking, I was taking a course, and in this particular course, everybody met from, like I said, I was in New York, and as many of us know, most New Yorkers feel like the world revolves around New York. So people, you know, people that were taking the same course from Canada, from Boston, from, you know, all around sort of the East Coast were coming to New York, and there were five, six hundred people on these weekends that we did. And in these particular weekends, you could the the participants could be a request for some sort of a makeover to their coach in the course. And I was never a request because I was fabulous already. I mean, I knew how to dress, I knew how to put myself together. So uh on one of these weekends, they were calling people up and they called my name. And I thought, wait a minute. Now, I could have said no, right? And I didn't know what the makeover was I was getting. They just, you know, called me up there. I think it was my coach and maybe one of the other ones who recommended it for me. And, you know, although I could have said no, what I knew was going, I first I had to trust the process. And second, had I said no, that would have led to a whole other conversation, right? Which for most people comes lands as very confrontational, even though it might not be, right? Because we all have our own shtick, our own, our own issues. So uh they took me back, and and ultimately what they wanted to do was cut my hair. And I was like, oh no, that is not happening. And I'm I'm quite sure many four-letter words flew out of my mouth. So there's a consequence of that. Um, I mean, I had the head coach in this course was standing with me. I'll never forget. And in and the sort of shortened version is she says, Carol, this is not going to kill you. And I'm like, Oh, yes, it will. I mean, I remember as if it were yesterday. And again, this is pre-9-11. So, you know, this is 25 years ago or more. And um I I finally, after, I mean, we talked for a long, long, long, long, long time with many different people. And I finally said, All right, fine, here's the deal. I was a bodybuilder back then. I gotta be in the gym. I need to be able to put my hair up at a clip. I mean, I have requirements. Don't leave me with, you know, hair on my face or any of the rest of that. And um, I said, that's my requirement. So because we were in the World Trade Center, it wasn't like we were in a salon. I had two guys working on me who literally um, they, you know, wet my hair down and they cut it, probably just below, probably just a tad bit right below my shoulders. And they blew it out straight with giant round brushes. And they marched all the people who had these makeovers out at the end of whatever period of time this is. I don't that I don't recall. Was it an hour, was it two hours? I don't remember. And the leader of this particular first of all, everybody looked at me and their their like jaws were on the ground. And the leader looked at me and mouthed to me, you're so much more open. Gives me goosebumps talking about this. So even though I knew I had trust and intimacy issues, as you can see, they were still clearly in my way. Be and my hair was one of those big reasons to keep those things in my way. How I was. So that openness started, you know, every time this happens, to your point, none of this changes overnight. Sometimes it could take years to change. So that was the beginning, I believe, for me, of really realizing that openness and being able to be with people, be present in a different way, right?

Practicing Presence And Openness

SPEAKER_01 11:25

So my whole career had been on the phone. There was no such thing as the internet, really, and Zoom calls in 1992 when I started in the search business and learned how to become a professional headhunter, which I was for 30 years. And so all our business was over the phone, which was another great way not to have to be really intimate with people. You know, because when you're in front of people, even in a Zoom call where I'm actually looking into the camera or looking at you, or sitting, but I would still notice. So, what would happen with me is I would start to, when I had to actually be in front of people, what was going on? Here's what, here's the structure, right? The structure was you have to look them in the face, you have to look them in the face, you have to look them in the eyes. Because the minute you look away, you're not truly being present and you're not being intimate with somebody either. You know, having that level of intimacy that you need to have, whether it's business or personal or whatever that is, to actually be with that person. So yeah, that was that was a massive breakthrough. And like I said, when he told me what he told me, I wrote about it in my book. He it it it was such an epiphany, but it's still that just started the process of the work that I had to do.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Yeah. So it just, you know, it goes to show these simple statements, right? That may see simple to somebody saying it, right? You're so much more open, but you actually being open to that statement and recognizing, like, okay, what does that really mean? And yeah. And you said to me, I was hiding behind my hair. And at first I was like, what? Like I've never even thought about that. But these are the things, the little things that people do to protect themselves, whether you realize it or not. And I love that you share that because I think it's so important for our listeners to think about what you are doing that maybe you're hiding behind that you're not recognizing, that maybe, or that you see other people doing that maybe you could help, you know, shine the light on their blind spot and help them. Yeah. Very, very cool. So, okay, so you talked about let's let's jump a little bit into your leadership journey and what you've been doing more recently.

Recruiting In The Internet Era

SPEAKER_02 13:47

And so um, recruiting for over 30 years, you obviously have lots of things to talk about. There's lots of people in transition right now. There's lots of people that are always looking for the like, what's the new way? And so when you think about what you're doing today, what are some tools or tidbits that maybe our listeners could help themselves, whether they're in transition or they recruit they're recruiting themselves or just developing their own selves as leaders, as senior leaders?

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Yeah, that's a really good question, Stacey. And it's it's uh I mean it's a more complicated answer, I think. But uh, and let me just digress a moment. So uh after I wrote my book, I I eventually pivoted into becoming a fractional, a fractional chief of staff. And that wasn't, I had my own chief of staff, which was the interesting thing. And but it never occurred to me, because she's a different type of chief of staff than I am, because of the difference in experience, right? And me working with leaders my whole career. But it was, it was literally, I was talking to a buddy of mine at the gym one morning who's a fractional head of sales, and he said, Oh no, Carol, you should be a fractional chief of staff. You know so much about how startups run, the mistakes founders and CEOs make, so on and so forth, right? So what you know, what I learned and what I still see is the internet has been both good and both really, really bad, in my opinion. And I'm using the word bad as a judgment, okay, because it um and and for recruiting, all it did was make it easier for companies to put longer job ads instead of having, you know, one by two inch square on the newspaper. Now you've got a whole page that you can put that ad on. But what hasn't changed is who's reading the ads? People who need a job, right? So what it has done is it has it has diminished further recruiting so that most people, I refer to this as post and pray. They post a job and pray they found a candidate. I've heard interviews, oh, from CEOs. You know, I have to look through three or four hundred resumes. And I'm thinking, yeah, in what world do you think you need to do that? So from a candidate standpoint, it makes it super whether you're an executive, now if you're an executive, chances are you are being reached out to by what I was, a professional headhunter, because they've been retained by a company to do the search, right? And at lower levels, and especially with a lot of these big public traded companies, they just have, you know, internal recruiters. And, you know, you hear so often, I hear all the time from people how horrible the candidate experience is. And it doesn't ever seem to change. So I think what's really important is candidates, people who may be listening more actively or actually being, you know, really needing a job, they have to take control of their process. Because when you just apply to some online post, you're you've got no control over anything. You're lucky if they even get back to you. So, you know, some of the strategies I I counsel people on are that they need to be proactively looking at, so who are the kind of companies I want to be working for? And and I worked at through my career coaching that I work with people. But, you know, we we we look at what types of companies do I want to work for? Am I looking to work for a nonprofit, a for-profit? I mean, there's gonna be an income difference in that case. Do I want to work for a uh lifestyle company, which means you're gonna have a better quality of life, probably a work, work-life balance or a work-life blend than you may have with a fast-moving startup, right? So it's really important to put yourself into the slot where you're gonna fit the best and to start getting to know people in that company. You reach out to them on LinkedIn, hey, you know, I'm I'm you you know I'd love to get to know you a little bit, your company a little bit. Most people, if you approach them that way, I'm not trying to sell anything. You may not even have any openings, and that's okay. But if we could maybe spend 15 minutes together, I'm I'm, you know, this is

Take Control Of Your Job Search

SPEAKER_01 18:11

what I want to learn. And if you'd be willing to do that, I'd be super grateful. Or, you know, meeting somebody for coffee if it's the same, you know, in the same city. And I think it's just really, really important to take control over your search. And, you know, when I when I hear of candidates reaching out, and I've heard this, and it just distresses me to no end, reaching directly out to who is the actual hiring manager because they can figure out who that is. And I will help people figure out how do you determine who the hiring manager is. There's ways to do that. And then they reach out to the hiring manager, and then the hiring manager says, sorry, you have to go through human resources. I just want to, I just want to strangle someone for met for many reasons. Because one, proper done properly done talent has no business under human resources. So anybody who's in human resources is probably very angry with me right now for saying that. But here's the thing: people in human resources have never been professional headhunters. They do not understand. And because human resources don't have, they basically have no power, they're often not looked at particularly positively. I know there are people out there that are really working hard to change that. But the issue is that properly done headhunting is a high-level strategic sales job. Would you have your sales organization reporting to human resources? The answer is no. So, you know, when somebody says that's our you have to, you know, go through recruiting or HR, I just think, gosh, do you really realize what you're doing?

SPEAKER_02 19:49

Yeah. That is that is something that I talk to a lot of my clients about that are hiring. Is there's a lot of hiring leaders out there that don't realize how, even if they have the rules that you have to go through HR, they have a recruiting team or whatever, you can talk to them and say, look, I'm looking for this, or I need to see this, or I need to see the resumes of myself. I want to talk, like you can alter the process for your needs. And there's a lot of leaders that don't know to ask for that. Um, but you can do it.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Yeah, that's a really good point, Stacey. I, you know, the the problem is that everybody thinks, and I see it with founders all the time that are that are recruiting. I'm like, oh, I didn't realize you're a professional recruiter. Yeah. They don't actually realize the problem is they don't realize how doing it the right way is really hard. Again, it's strategic. Yes. And, you know, you look at these companies who are who are who are paying salespeople a fortune, that's what the best headhunters are. Okay. And, you know, hopefully we're not going to completely die out. Um, and that those those people like me are will be teaching other people how to do it properly. It's part of what I do as a fractional chief of staff, is put these processes into place for companies moving forward and help their leaders to determine how they how they need to recruit. That's just one little piece of what I do, right? Um yeah, it's it's a it's a hard, complex job. And when those when when people leaders actually start to realize, oh, I didn't realize that. Oh, I didn't realize that. Right. I don't think I ever did a kickoff meeting with the team, whoever the stakeholders were for the for the search I was working on. I don't think ever, where more than one person said to me, Oh, you know what? I never thought about that. That's a really good question. Because they don't understand how to write a job description or a position description. They don't understand the questions that have to be. Be asked to determine what exactly do we need. Right.

unknown 22:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

And so let's talk about that for a second. Because you can hire a professional headhunter, you can hire a consultant that could maybe do this work, but you're specifically doing chief of staff. So what is the difference? Because I talk to a lot of my clients too about chief of staff and having someone

Rethinking HR And Talent

SPEAKER_02 22:27

to help you with a lot of this stuff. Because there's a lot of newer executives that don't realize how to leverage that talent and that role. So can you explain for our listeners that may not know, like what's the difference? Why do chief of staff over maybe some of these other pieces? And maybe you would choose something else, you know, than that, depending on your needs.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

Yeah, that's a really good question. So the chief of staff is the one person that is, I mean, you're really you, I, and the proxy for the CEO. Okay. I am their force multiplier. I am their impact partner. I am the bridge between the CEO and the executive team. Not, and what I do want to make clear, because I had a CEO ask me this once, well, aren't my people going to think that um I just don't, you know, want to have to deal with them anymore? I said, well, it's it's going to be up to you, and I won't talk to you about how to do that, how to how to actually have that conversation with them. Because CEOs that are bogged down inside their business cannot actually lead the company properly. So, so I take all those years of working with executives in the SMB space. Early in my career, I worked with very large publicly traded companies, and that went away as soon as really I could have that go away. Because since I'm purely since I'm personally driven by the opportunity to make a difference, I'm not going to make a difference at a big company. It's just not going to happen. So I I go in and I actually go to all the meetings with the CEO. I go to meetings in place of the CEO. I work with their leadership team in rewriting those all their position descriptions, which they can now use because I also build a competency model for them, use to use in reviews when necessary, and to interview new people in that particular position, because now we have a competency model to review to interview off of, right? And it allows the executive team, as they start to really soak this in, to nip issues in the bud before they become issues. Right. So I may have them immediately start by meeting with each member of their team once a month and walking through this competency model. Because one of the biggest problems is that because companies don't know how to write position descriptions, they miss a lot. So this way, there may be 40, 50 competencies for a particular job. We can go over that, I can go over them with my subordinate. And as a CEO can now do with his or her executive team, they do the same thing for them. And they may think,

Why A Chief Of Staff

SPEAKER_01 25:22

oh, I didn't really realize this was part of my job. Right. Because there's never been communicated to them. So, so, and of course, there's coaching that goes along with what I do, right? Because of my training that I've had, as I'm sure you understand. And and really what I want to do is just get everybody aligned, get their talent strategy put into place so that in three to six months, I can either backfill myself with a fractional or with a full-time chief of staff, whatever they need. So I'm still headhunting, but only for that.

SPEAKER_02 25:52

I love that you bring up how you had a CEO that said, like, well, wait a minute, won't people think that I'm not doing my job? I assume that it happens the other way around, too, that when you're working with their direct reports and now you're asking them to do certain things that they're not hearing from their actual leader, you may get pushback or odd looks or whatever. So, how do you handle those types of situations as a chief of staff?

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Yeah, that's such a great question because it's it's the same process that I use when we're building a culture of feedback, right? A culture of feedback being anybody in the company can deliver to the side below or above them any kind of feedback without fearing being thrown under a bus. But it has to be led by the CEO. So does the chief of staff hire, has to be led by the CEO. And it, and this is why I say I have to sit down with the CEO and let's practice it. If it takes practicing, I want to hear the words coming out of your mouth. Because, as you know, Stacy, how we use language is critical to how people receive that language, right? I I firmly believe that communication is the single lowest common denominator behind a company's success or failure, or lack thereof, or level of success or failure, right? If you can't communicate to your engineers how you want a product built, it's not going to get done, so on and so forth. So it is a matter of how that CEO uses language to say, look, this is, I'm bringing in this person, not to remove me from ever having anything to do with you again, but to free me to actually be the visionary, to be the leader, to actually focus on what I need to do to grow the revenues at this company, even though there's a chief sales officer, whatever you call that person. So it's all around sitting down with them and communicating super effectively on this is what I'm doing, here's why I'm doing it, and this is what's actually going to be the benefit for you. It's kind of the old sort of old style sales feature benefit, right? You have to tell them what the benefit is to them. And the and and the executive team now says, Oh, look, look how much more time I have with somebody. Because they probably don't really have the time they need with the CEO, because the CEO is fighting too many fires.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

Yeah, I love that. And I love how you make sure really clear communication in the beginning. I love your way of feedback and thinking about that. And and I would add that it's not just CEOs that can have a chief of staff. It's the next level down, and they they can be just as effective, which is where I see, I'd say a good enough mix, but the ones that do have it, they are so much more successful because they can be more strategic and be the visionary for their area.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

So you're you're I mean, you're you're exactly on point there. I mean, you know, take any fortune, I mean, take every Fortune 50, probably even every Fortune 100, maybe even most of the Fortune 500. It's not just the CEO who has a chief of staff. I mean, when when Jeff Wiener came in to be the CEO of LinkedIn, he implemented for the every member of the executive team that they had a chief of staff. It transformed their company. It's probably part of what transformed them enough to get bought by Microsoft, would be my guess. But yeah, they all had chiefs of staff. And I mean, I don't, I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but it but it transformed them financially.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Yeah, that's great proof right there for sure.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

You know, and depending on the size of the company is, you know, is going to depend then on, well, after the CEO, how big do we have to need to then spend the money to have whether it's a fractional or a full-time chief of staff for my COO, for my CFO, for, you know, and companies have to be at a certain size. And, you know, and maybe, you know, maybe there's you just hire a few different fractionals to do that for your executive team when when it when it's time to do so.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

All

Competency Models And Alignment

SPEAKER_02 30:02

right, there's that sound. It's time for our fun questions. Are you ready for our fun questions?

SPEAKER_01 30:06

Okay, I'm a little nervous.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

These are easy. And now that you are trusting and more vulnerable, this is gonna be easy. Yeah. All right. Would you rather do laundry or dishes for the rest of your life?

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Dishes.

SPEAKER_02 30:22

Dishes?

SPEAKER_01 30:23

As long as I have a dishwasher to help me. Yeah, probably dishes. I hate laundry. I I just hate it, hate it.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

I'm that way with sweeping out. I have two loads downstairs right now.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

I don't want to do them.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

All right. Would you rather give up sweet snacks or salty ones?

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Sweets.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

Sweets?

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Yeah, I'd give up snakes.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

Salty is the way that you go, huh?

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Well, I like both, but I mean generally I eat so clean I don't eat either. But I think if I'm if I'm gonna make a choice. That's really that's actually a really hard question, but um yeah, I'd rather give up sweets. I think they're worse for you overall.

unknown 31:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

Awesome. Well, Carol, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for publicly sharing your story to help our listeners understand that they're not alone and that you know you can overcome some tough challenges and blind spots that may people may make visible to you. So really appreciate it and understand the chief of staff, the role, how to look for things, how to recruit as leaders. It's so critical that we recruit and build our great teams. So, all great nuggets for our listeners. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

If you enjoyed the show, please go to LeadershipMoments Podcast.com to subscribe to the podcast or on your favorite player, as well as follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

You can also send us a message on what you like and don't like or what guests you want us to have on the show. So until next time, this is Stacy Caster, and what doesn't challenge you won't change you.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

And I'm Tracy Ann Palmer. Be the change you wish to see in the world.