How To Hire The RIGHT Person w/ Mike Armistead

Mike Armistead is a seasoned serial entrepreneur and corporate leader specializing in the technology sector. With over 30 years of experience, Mike has been integral in building and growing several successful companies, including Fortify Software and Response Software. Currently, he serves as a leader at Pulse Security AI, where he bridges the gap between technical security measures and broader business strategies. 

Highlighting a seamless transition between large companies and startup ventures, Mike draws from his extensive experience to impart valuable lessons on effective leadership, hiring the right people, and maintaining authenticity in various corporate environments. The episode illuminates key strategies for blending large organizational structures with dynamic startup culture, providing listeners with actionable insights to enhance their leadership journey.

Throughout the conversation, Mike emphasizes the importance of hiring the right people not just to fill roles, but to ensure cultural and strategic alignment within the team. He articulates the nuances of moving between vastly different corporate environments and how each kind of experience brings valuable lessons to the other. Furthermore, the discussion explores the evolving landscape of leadership in the tech industry, touching on the integration of advanced technologies and strategic organizational transformation. 

Key Takeaways:

• Successfully transitioning between startups and large corporations requires adaptability and a genuine passion for the mission.
• Hiring is not just about filling seats but matching the right people for the right roles based on strategic needs and cultural fit.
• Recognizing and respecting diverse team backgrounds and experiences fosters trust and collaboration.
• Even experienced leaders need to continually embrace new technologies and methods, such as AI, to remain competitive and informed.

Notable Quotes:

• "Leadership is about matching strategies to people and situations." – 
• "It's not just about filling the seats; it's about filling the seats with the right people." 
• "Recognize your surroundings and your audience, and how things may pivot and change." 

All episodes and guest requests can be found at:
www.leadershipmomentspodcast.com
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Follow Tracy-Ann Palmer on Instagram @tracy_ann_palmer

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

You have to walk the talk. You have to be authentic as a leader.

SPEAKER_00 0:04

If you're not doing it, they see that.

SPEAKER_03 0:07

It is entirely universal. There's other people who are going through this.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

For me, a great leader needs to be able to marry three things: vision, systems, and people.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

Welcome to Leadership Moments. If this is your first time, and if you are returning, thank you for your support.

SPEAKER_04 0:26

This show is about leaders from all walks of life, leadership tips, and maybe even a little of what you wouldn't expect to help you in leadership.

Meet Mike Armistead And The Goal

SPEAKER_03 0:35

We would appreciate it if you tell someone else about our podcast as we strive to support all leaders that want to just be better. Let's get on with the show. Today our guest is Mike Armistead. Mike is a serial entrepreneur and corporate leader who has built and grown technology companies for more than 30 years. His career began at Pure Software, Reed Hastings' first startup before Netflix, as well as being a co-founder to multiple successful companies like Fortify Software, Respond Software, and now Pulse Security AI. Currently at Pulse Security AI, he helps organizations close the gap between technical security tools and the broader business strategies that they are meant to support. He is also a Stanford educated engineer and has coached more than 500 youth sports, an experience that has shaped his beliefs that leadership is about matching strategies to people and situations. Today we are going to talk about how you can move between large corporations and startups back and forth, be successful in both, and how to hire people along the way. Let's jump in. Mike, I'm so excited that you're on our show today because when we were talking before the show, you've had a great career that has gone from large companies to small companies to being a co-founder multiple times and uh working with some great founders in the past as well. And you have, you know, had to hire people and help them succeed. And I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that just at first of like when you talk about hiring people and working with people, like what are some things that you think of first?

Hiring Is Finding The Right Who

SPEAKER_01 2:12

You know, I think it is absolutely the core of anything that I've done in my career, you know, and it really determines whether you're going to be successful or not. Yeah, I I think in fact, if whether you're sitting in a on a big corporate uh campus, you know, in a in you know, a sea of cubes, or whether you're in the basement like I am now in my my startup, uh the success of the what is about finding the right who across the board. And that that kind of thing has really taken me through the years because it's it's been a quest for finding the right people and the right puzzle pieces that you have to help make that success. And I think, you know, as part of that, there are uh similarities that uh that cut across or core elements that cut across how I think about hiring and the person that I'm that I'm after. Um, and there's also, uh, as you noted, the big differences sometimes between, you know, doing it for a startup and doing it for a large corporation.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

I love that. And first of all, it's not just about filling the seats, it's about filling the seats with the right people. And the right people can vary depending on the situation. And there's a lot of people that have grown up in a startup world and feel that they can't go to large corporations, and vice versa, where I've grown up in a large organization and that means I I probably couldn't perform well in a startup. And I think you are one of those success cases to prove that wrong. And so, like, what are some key factors that you would love to tell our listeners of like how you they can say, yes, I can. I can switch between these really large organizations. And then later I want to get back to like how we find out the right who. But let's start with the just the transition between large and small.

Mission Curiosity And The No Jerk Rule

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Yeah, I think it gets into what I would call maybe the the the DNA of the person or the egg of their what they're try striving to do or how how they approach a problem in that. And I think, you know, as I because I started my career in a large corporation, uh, you know, back in the 80s, you know, and I was new uh right out of school. Uh, as much as you want to start something new, it wasn't as part of the the fabric of the culture, which it is now. I mean, I have grown kids, they all want to do startups right away, and it's kind of interesting. But I I did my time seven, eight years in a large corporation, and uh that made it a little more difficult to get hired by a startup, I found. But it was uh, I'd say three core elements or this DNA that helped me actually get there and then succeed kind of in that role. And and the first is aligning to the mission, whatever it is. And by what I mean by that is whether you're in a large corporation and you're in a little small group in that large corporation, there still is a mission. And you know, you whether if you're if you're doing it just for a paycheck, your your performance is going to show. And so you look for people that can align to that. Now, obviously, in a startup, the alignment to that mission gets even uh more important and it's uh a stronger factor in into things. Uh the the second thing is I'd call it a curiosity quotient. You know, you you're you're in a career or a job really for the long term. I think it's the right approach to think it that way. And you need to be learning all the time. Uh you know, you you rarely find stagnant leaders uh in this way that are that don't want to learn uh leading successful companies or successful groups. Uh and so being curious uh I think helps the transition, whether it's from large to small or small to large um within it. And the last one, uh, this is a little different uh than maybe your question is, but it's it's part of the DNA that I that I absolutely adhere to um is that uh there's kind of a no-jerk policy that I like to uh espouse because you know life's too short. Uh and in fact, I've long borrowed uh something from the 80s. Uh uh remember there's a firm called Anderson Consulting, which was became Accenture uh eventually, but it was you know super large, like maybe half a million people, you know, in it even at that time. And they said that they would only hire swans. So what's a swan? Well, a swan S smart, uh W, hardworking, A ambitious, and N nice. And I remember that through me the first time I heard it. It was like what and then I started thinking about it, and it was like, you know what? I've met plenty of smart, hardworking, ambitious jerks in my life, and I don't really want to work with them, you know, and and you know, kind of joking aside, uh, having someone who's toxic in a group, it is like adding uh some ink to water, you know, it just ruins the whole thing, and that and sometimes that toxicity is they don't want to be there, and this is back to that alignment uh you know, part of it. Um, or you know, they are just a person that just doesn't get along well with people. And I've never on the other side, the most pleasurable kind of companies I've worked with and where we became really good friends and everything like that is because we respected and were nice to each other. And I I think that's uh such a key thing, uh, especially in today's world.

SPEAKER_03 8:06

Yeah. What I love about that is it's not just the skills and the competencies. It is just just be a good human, right? Like it just respect each other for who you are, and it is so important for the success of a company that you respect each other. Because when you respect each other, you trust each other, you lean on each other, you win together, you lose together. And um, I think that I'm glad you said that. I think it's so important and a key piece that when we talk about what you need to be and as a leader, we don't talk about that all the time. So I'm really glad that you added that.

Respectful Disagreement And Checking In

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Yeah, and and I I'm glad you added the part about the respect thing, because that doesn't mean you agree all the time. In fact, you know, it's just that the way you disagree ends up being something you should think about as a leader because uh, and and that in various forms. A lot of people I I think think about that in in the moment. And yeah, there is in the moment of disagreeing the right way. Um, but I know a technique I I use, and I in fact I used it this week, was I could tell one of my uh you know team members was really looking grumpy on the video. Uh and and so I immediately followed the meeting up. Just Pingdom said, Hey, get on. And I just said, Why are you looking grumpy? What it what what was that all about? And uh people really appreciate that, right? Because it's just like they can air what was making them grumpy. Um, uh, and ended up it wasn't really so much grumpiness in this case. This is more of just feeling overwhelmed, uh, kind of thing. But but it's good to get that out. And uh, and but I think that's a part of not being a jerk, being nice, because you're you're thinking about the other person a little bit more and how you can help them make success, which is very key to leadership. So, right, you're trying to make them successful in what they do.

Speedboat Versus Cruise Ship Reality

SPEAKER_03 10:07

Yeah. And what I love about that is you're talking about how important it is for a leader to recognize your surroundings and your audience and how things may pivot and change. And the fact that you said, okay, this person's not like they're normally. And so I need to reach out to them and get them like just the fact that they got to vent, right, probably helped them quite a bit and that build that trust for you of like, wow, he's really got my back, right? He's he's taking care of me and sees when I'm hurting. Uh, because we all have our moments. So great example. Love that story. And, you know, you talked about um, you know, really understanding the when you worked for a large corporation for multiple years and that the startup was like, I don't know if we want to hire you. And me being a leader in a large corporation for multiple years, I was on the other end of that. When I was interviewing people that worked at startups, I was like, I don't know if I want to hire you. And it was because I don't know if you're ready for the political value that we have here, that things will run slower. Like if you're used to running at fast pace and going. So it actually does work both ways. And I love what you said about it. Really, it's like, are you passionate about the mission? Are you wanting to learn and grow? And if you can express that, like it doesn't matter which direction you're going, they're gonna want to hire you. So I love that.

Equity Ownership And A Career Story

The Uncomfortable Truth About AI

Hiring Better Through References

SPEAKER_01 11:27

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, a lot of times I I like in because I've done this like four or five times in my career, because even when I was in a startup, um, I've had three times where we got bought by a much larger company. And so I was back in into that uh thing. And then maybe uniquely, I stayed for many years afterwards, after being in the startup. And it's because of what you said, Stacy. It's uh yeah, the mission alignment ended up being an important part because I, while it wasn't as fast-paced and I could just make decisions and I could, you know, really move where I wanted to, the impact that I could have uh out there was larger, you know, and and yeah, and I I think it was a larger sales team, it was a larger market uh and marketing that that could be done. And it was it was very fulfilling to to do that in a way that the the startup was fulfilling getting something off the ground and off that launch pad and and successful in its own right. But then this was feeling in fulfilling in a different way, and I do and I do also like what you said there because I think you know, if you liken it, I I I often kind of talk about the the startups like a speedboat and the large corporations like a big cruise ship. And you act differently and the skills you have and the way you act has to do it. And you really nailed one core part of it. When you're on the cruise ship, um, there's gonna be bureaucracy, there's going to be uh things a little bit slower, a little bit um, you know, it depends if there's more consensus or not, but it's gonna feel like that um within it. And you know, a lot of startup people that they'll lose their soul if they if they encounter that. And you have to be ready, or you have to pick people that they want to have more of an impact, they want to have more stability, they want to have less ambiguity about things. That's the kind of the system that they're buying into on the cruise ship. Um, they're also on the cruise ship, and there's lots of areas of the cruise ship that can be fun, you know, and and are different. And so there's opportunity that you get in the uh in that large corporation that that's also there. Um and and and but I guess and then I guess the final part is you're very much uh tired to excel at a at a particular thing in the larger corporation. Well, just let's juxtap juxtapose that to uh you know the speedboat. Speedboat, not very comfortable usually to sit in. You're you're you're but it's thrilling. You're you're you're moving along, but you know, there's bumps and and things like that. And uh you gotta find people that that thrive on ambiguity in a lot in a lot of ways. It's you don't have answers. You could pretend you have answers, but you don't really have answers. And um you so people that exist within that, and that's why that DNA of the learning and the curiosity and stuff is also key in in the small company because you might be called upon to to fill many roles, not just one role, and you've got to do it. You know, you're you're driving the boat and you're bailing somehow. Well, and you have to have to do that uh as well. You know, there's lots of stories I have here uh of things. You know, I've I've I one of my co-founders in the current company, I tried to convince uh three or four times uh before uh to to come into a startup because I just knew his the way he approached problems and things, he'd be very successful. He was very successful in the corporate world, but I also knew uh knew this. And um, and and he kept saying no. And you know, and and it was fine because the no was his family life. He wanted that stability. He, you know, he wanted to to have more of the known and how it would progress, how his career would progress uh through things. Um, and it wasn't until I uh my company was acquired by Hewlett Packard, and I was running a division in Hewlett Packard, and I said, Hey, we're a big company. Why don't you come work with me now? And he did. And six months later, I just I just had to tell him, Hey, you work harder and you have the the right you know orientation that you'd be very successful in a startup. So if we start another company again, I want you to go go there with me and do that. And the and the key thing, I guess the speedboat part is that equity part is a really important part of it, is you you're an owner now, and being an owner, you uh both have responsibilities, but you have potentially a great reward uh off the back end of that. And and that's what I wanted him to get to. And and um, you know, yay, that's the way it it happened. Uh, and we had a great four years of being in the startup. We got acquired and uh for you know hundreds of millions of dollars. So it was uh it was a good outcome for everybody. And and uh uh and he proved, and he and I I was right on this one, he he was really good in a startup. So we've started another company, and that's what we're doing now.

SPEAKER_03 16:48

That's awesome. And what I love about that story is we tell ourselves stories of what the other side is like, and so whether we're in a startup, we tell ourselves stories of what it's like in the large corporation and vice versa. And you laid out some pieces that probably negated some of those parts of the story that weren't right, where it's like, okay, we know that people in startups work really hard and maybe I don't want to work that hard. And you're like, no, you're actually working harder than most people that are in startups. And so recognizing that, I think was uh really, really important to point that out. And so getting to the facts and uh, you know, helping us understand, okay, what story am I telling myself right now? And how can I know that it's a fact rather than a story? So I love that.

Results Orientation And Utility Players

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Absolutely. And you know, and again, you brought up something earlier that I think is is key is you got to position yourself the right way. So whether you're you're you your background is in startups, and now you're you want to join a large company, or your background is a large company, you want to join a smaller one. You got to think of that positioning, and it really ends up being about uh those elements and those facts in a in a lot of ways about what is going to then position you for them to be comfortable knowing that you're gonna be successful uh in these things. And uh yeah, and and you know, it gets back to uh uh some of these core things that that you said, it's maybe myth busting uh a little bit is that you know, you're whatever your environment, they're gonna want to hear that you're you're you're gonna go after it. You're gonna go after the mission, you're gonna work hard to do it, you're gonna work with other people well, you know, all that kind of thing. And then it's then it's you know uh uh that alignment to that mission and and belief in that. I know in startups you you really you do pay a little bit more attention to uh is this person really jazzed about what you're gonna be doing? Um in large corporation, you really want that person too. They want you want them to be jazzed. And and that's I said, maybe that that's really a thing about think about how you can impact so many more people in this large corporation uh versus you know, the thrill of getting something off the ground.

SPEAKER_03 19:02

So I have to ask, because you've worked with so many different people and in different areas and large and small, and you know, thinking about what your uh company is doing today, like what do you believe is one uncomfortable truth that leaders need to know right now?

SPEAKER_01 19:17

We're in a technology discontinuity and it's called artificial intelligence. You know, our company does use artificial intelligence to deliver, you know, our our product. And I'm not saying that because there's a lot of hype and you know, and being old enough to have lived and being an executive in the Web 1.0 hype, I very much recognize that we as humans love to just think things are going to happen tomorrow that may happen a decade later. Um, because I remember being in that web and oh my gosh, shopping is going to change. There'll be no more brick and mortar stores. It took 10, 15 years for Amazon to really get all the way there, and and for us to feel comfortable with going to Amazon because they sold books, and I would never buy a you know a shirt from them. Uh, but the uncomfortable truths were in this uh, I do think artificial intelligence is one of these things that's that is going to make a uh a change of things, and and it's not so much being being fearful of it or doing that, but I think the uncomfortable truth is you gotta learn about it, and there's and the way you learn about it is you have to use it because you'll you'll start to see what's good and where it's bad or where it's not so good, you know. And and there's some really funny quirks about artificial intelligence too, like it is so confidently can make something up and try to convince you that it's true because and it speaks in such proper grammar that you just you feel that confidence in your life. And then if you but if you think about it, it's like why are you confident? And it may not be, it may just totally make it up because that's how those models have been trained. They've been trained to speak confidently, and so there's little, there's things like that that you just have to use it and get comfortable with it, just like you know, in the 90s, we had to use the internet and we had to we had to think and get comfortable with with it. Um, and then you could you can use that in your career, in your leadership, in your things to then uh use it to its advantage, um, and speak very plainly about it then. But if you know, if you're just reading about it and you're just listening to the hype for or against it, you know, uh I you know it you you won't be authentic uh in that way. And and you need to be authentic in this when there's a transition because uh because there's gonna be a lot of people just jabbering about it and you know, it's yeah, you got you don't know who to believe.

SPEAKER_03 21:57

Yeah. I agree with that, and I think the one P key piece that you put out there is like you can't be what I call the lawyer about it, where you're reading it, but you're not actually using it. And so just try it out. Just do it. And I think a lot of people are now. And there's probably listeners right now, like saying, Really? Are there people that haven't tried it? Yes. And there are actually many leaders that haven't tried it yet. Uh, so believe it or not, I actually talk to people quite often that are like, yeah, I haven't tried it yet. And I was like, what are you talking about? Like, right? It seems crazy. So you definitely need to uh to try it out.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

And and the trying isn't just do like what is equivalent of a search and seeing what it gives out to you. It's actually think of a project and see if you can get that AI to do that project for you. That's the trying out because that's that's where you see a little bit more complexity, a little bit more. And honestly, you sometimes you'll see the power of what that thing could do too. And uh uh yeah, that's the trying out, not just let it read your emails or something. That's that's not really trying out.

SPEAKER_03 23:00

Right, right. Yeah, great call. Um, okay, so you we talked about hiring the right people and filling the seats with the right people. What are some things for our listeners to consider when they're hiring to make sure that they do pick the correct ones?

SPEAKER_01 23:18

Well, there's a there's a lot a lot to that. I mean, I think a lot of it is how do you, you know, how do you do your interviewing and then what do you do? Uh, you know, where do you take that and how you do it? I I tell you, I I over the years have become the the biggest fan of I go to references and I try to find backdoor references and things all the time because interviews you're gonna get a picture of a person, but it's pretty staged. You know, the whole thing, and you can try all your techniques about behavioral interviewing and and uh you know, assign different people different, you know, places to prod and poke the person and then come together and get a consensus. And those are all very good techniques, but it's it's staged, and and it's so much better to find out either from the references that they give you, or if even better, if you could find someone who knows the person and could talk about them in their professional life, um, that's good. And and note too, I mean, people want to say nice things about other people, and and that's fine. You're you're not really there to discover often uh you know the the some deep dark secrets. Uh you're there just to uncover how they would uh be according to the attributes that we talked about earlier. Um, you know, one technique that I've used in this, and I I use it all the time, is even with their references, I ask, uh, I'm hiring this person. What could I do to support them to make them the most successful? What are the things that I need to pay attention to so that they're most successful? I found that people uh like that because they can say something that may not, you know, that may not be totally just a glowing review for them. They can kind of say what what would be something that they do need to be bolstered on. And that's a great clue because you know, me as the person trying to do the hiring, I might be fine with that because it's like, hey, I know I I can I can bolster that and that that that's great. Um, but if I didn't know it, I wouldn't know to to watch for that. And uh, and that's to me that that's one technique that I use all the time that I that I really like, that I've gotten good results for.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

What I say to people is what role are they most successful in and why? Because then if this person has experience with them in different situations, they can tell you what it is, or if they've never been in that role, but they know of their strengths and they can talk about that. And that's especially helpful, especially for technical roles. Then they'll say things that are more technical or not technical, and it just gives you clues to where their strengths and opportunities are. So I love that you say it. Like give them an opportunity to say something positive, um, but they also get an opportunity to say where their opportunities are.

unknown 26:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 26:17

Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Anything else uh when considering hiring people that our listeners should consider?

SPEAKER_01 26:26

No, I I think as a summary, it's, you know, whether it's the speedboat or the cruise ship, you're you're looking for indicators of those attributes that you think will most make that person successful. And I think it's it's it's less about um, you know, it it could be less about the particulars of what you know is going to go into roles and much more of can can this can you imagine this person being successful within it? Now I say that, and I will tell you over my career, the one of the more pleasant surprises that I have with people are those that are doing some other role, but they take on a challenge, and you find out they're just unbelievably great at that at that challenge. And you realize, you know, there's that utility player that you could plug into any kind of problem and they'll just get it done. And uh, you know, it's probably one of the attributes that I didn't talk about uh that that I do uh find that's incredibly uh helpful and and and even to your notion about what you try to get out during an interview is um it's about results. It's not really about knowledge of a of a topic or how well they could speak to it or things like that. It's like what results did you get? Whether and then in whatever environment. And I think being results oriented is, you know, if if you get people that strive to do that, that's a kind of that ambition part of the Swan, you know, notion too. Uh is uh then then you know you you're gonna you're gonna find a home for them. Uh may not be exactly what you hired them for, but you're gonna find a home for them in your orientation.

Fun Questions And Wrap Up

SPEAKER_02 28:06

All right, there's that sound. It's time for our fun questions. Are you ready for our fun questions?

SPEAKER_01 28:12

I think so.

SPEAKER_03 28:13

All right, they're easy, they're easy. Um, all right. So for entertainment, do you go for reality TV or documentaries?

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Documentaries.

SPEAKER_03 28:23

Documentaries, yeah. I love my documentaries too. I'm so I totally agree with that. Um, all right, next one. Are you a carry-on only traveler or do you check a bag without hesitation?

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Yeah, carry on.

SPEAKER_03 28:34

Carry on, yeah, yeah. And what's the thought behind that? Is it like just to get like I carry on because I'm too impatient. I don't want to wait at the baggage claim. What's your thought process on carry-on only?

SPEAKER_01 28:44

I uh I'm I'm with you on the the the no waiting part. Um, also, I'm fairly light packer.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

Awesome. Well, Mike, thank you so much for your insights today. I know our listeners are walking away with a lot of good nuggets that they'll be able to put into play and really appreciate your time with us.

SPEAKER_04 29:05

If you enjoyed the show, please go to LeadershipMoments Podcast.com to subscribe to the podcast or on your favorite player, as well as follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_03 29:16

You can also send us a message on what you like and don't like or what guests you want us to have on the show. So until next time, this is Stacy Caster, and what doesn't challenge you won't change you.

SPEAKER_04 29:26

And I'm Tracy Ann Palmer. Be the change you wish to see in the world.