Navigating Leadership Through Chaos w/ Reuven Shelef

Reuven Shelef is the founder and CEO of OUT OF THE BOX Consulting. As a strategic engineer with a coach's heart, he is renowned for his innovative "Untangling Complex Challenges" methodology. With over 30 years of experience in engineering, technology, and business transformation, Reuven has contributed significantly to Fortune 500 companies, startups, and executives by solving intricate challenges and refining business processes. His expertise spans cross-functional collaboration and coaching leaders, knitting together logic, human behavior, and transformative outcomes.

Reuven Shelef explores the pivotal role of processes, cross-functional dynamics, and the risks of relying too heavily on AI as a panacea for business problems. He shares personal insights garnered from his own life experiences, which have profoundly influenced his methodology, and provides actionable strategies for leaders to steer their organizations through chaos effectively. With key insights into leveraging both logic and human dynamics, this episode serves as a valuable guide for leaders looking to navigate today's rapidly-shifting business landscape.

Key Takeaways:

• Recognize and differentiate between dramatic and subtle crises to implement effective crisis management.
• Building cross-functional relationships is essential for resolving between-function challenges, often overlooked by leaders.
• No existing processes often result in broken processes; it is crucial for leaders to establish and maintain clear systems.
• Reliance on AI should be measured; the fundamentals of leadership and problem-solving still depend heavily on human insight and well-structured processes.
• Personal growth and professional challenges can intersect, providing unique insights into effective problem-solving.

Notable Quotes:

• "Most organization doesn't have defined processes. That means that by definition, they're broken."
• "AI is not going to fix what you're expecting it to fix, at least in the foreseen future."
• "You have to give up being in full control and look at the greater good."
• "Create relationships as if you are the owner of the company, no matter your current position."

Resources:

• Reuven Shelef's Website

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www.leadershipmomentspodcast.com
Follow Stacey Caster on Instagram @staceycaster_
Follow Tracy-Ann Palmer on Instagram @tracy_ann_palmer

Transcript

Quick Leadership Truths

SPEAKER_03 0:01

You have to walk the tongue. You have to be authentic as a leader. If you're not doing it, they see that.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

It is entirely universal. There's other people who are going through this.

SPEAKER_03 0:11

For me, a great leader needs to be able to marry three things: vision, systems, and people.

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Welcome to Leadership Moments if this is your first time. And if you are returning, thank you for your support.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

This show is about leaders from all walks of life, leadership tips, and maybe even a little of what you wouldn't expect to help you in leadership.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

We would appreciate it if you tell someone else about our podcast as we strive to support all leaders that want to just be better. Let's get on with the show. Today our guest is Reuven Shalef. Reuven is the founder and CEO of Out of the Box Consulting. He is a strategic engineer with a coach's heart, renowned for his groundbreaking, untangling complex challenges methodology. With over three decades of experience in engineering, technology, and business transformation, including human dynamics, he has helped Fortune 500 companies, startups, and executives solve intricate challenges, refine business processes, facilitate cross-functional collaboration, and coach leaders. Ruben blends sharp logic with the deep understanding of human behavior, creating transformative outcomes that go beyond business to personal growth. Today we're going to talk about exactly what to do when there is chaos and how leaders can lead through it in an effective manner. Let's jump in. Ruben, thank you for being on the show today. I think you're going to bring some great insights for our listeners. And where I'd love to start is as a founder of an organization, you have worked with many different people and seen a lot of different things and worked in some really complex situations. And I'd love for you to tell our listeners, like as leaders realize that they're in a complex situation, what's one of the first steps they should think of and how to move forward?

Assess Risk And Name The Crisis

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Yeah. And uh Stacy, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure being here. The the first thing to do is to um notice if there's a crisis going on. So a complex situation, a complex challenge could be very dramatic and it could be subtle. Whether it's dramatic or subtle, it could be crisis mode or not. What do I mean by that? There are things at risk, and uh are the risks immediate? What is the magnitude of the risk? If any of them are high or immediate, I would call it a crisis, and there is a need to do what we call crisis management. So the the actual uh the first steps depend on the situation. Overall, it would be to manage the crisis if if it's that uh at that level, and uh have all the people involved that should be involved in the process. The next steps after we gather the people involved, we create the awareness of what's going on. So there's you know the communication uh channels, and it depends how many people and uh what are the relationships between the people, but basically get everyone involved that should be involved, involved, and then get everyone on the same page with what's going on, what are we doing, and how we're going about it. That's that's the first the first step before we do anything, before we apply any methodology.

When A Crisis Looks Calm

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Yeah, I love that. And I definitely want to get into the methodology in a minute, but you said something that was really important that I'd love to go back on, which is like, look, it can be very dramatic, right? Where it's obvious. When I when you say dramatic for a crisis, to me, it's like it's obvious that there's something going on. And then it can be really subtle. So can you give an example of what is something that's subtle that could be a crisis, just to help our listeners understand that a little bit better?

SPEAKER_00 4:26

A great example. I have two two visuals from from uh previous engagements in two different companies where one of them, the CEO, what was at the at the whiteboard and and projecting a large Excel spreadsheet, uh, and the entire executive team was in the room, and there was yelling going on. So there was there was fighting going on between the executives, the CEO was shouting and all that. In another situation, another company, there was a group, a pretty large group of people, uh, the senior directors, VPs of different uh parts of the organization, and the conversation was very civilized, no one was yelling, uh, people were sharing their uh uh uh slides or opening the systems that they're looking into and and uh sharing data. And it, if you would be a fly on the wall, you would say in situation one, there is a crisis, and in the second situation, there isn't. Everything is fine, they're just sharing information. It was a passive-aggressive uh phenomena. There was complete disagreement in the second situation. There was a complete disagreement between each one of the people that were presenting data, but it they weren't talking about the disagreement. So if you wouldn't if if someone like me wasn't in the room, I was brought in by one of the executives that knew that some that there is a problem, but so I was looking for it. If you wouldn't have a professional negative scanner like I am in the room, you wouldn't notice that anything is is wrong, you know. But the disagreements there were much deeper and greater than in the first situation, and the main reason was it was unspoken of. They were pretending, each one was pretending like they know the truth, each one had a different truth, but they didn't talk about that misalignment, and that created and that went over time undetected until someone uh raised the flag and brought me in, etc. Uh, but it went undetected, so the time elapsed caused the problems to go deeper and deeper. It was a much more complex situation to fix um than in the first situation where it was clear people were vocal, everything was on the table. Let's do something about it.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Yeah, I I love that example and thank you for sharing that. And I think there's it's not about what's being said all the time, it's about what's not being said and the actions that are being taken. So it's using all of that to be able to tell you things. And you said, you know, one, it sounded like somebody did recognize it and brought you in, which is a beautiful thing. How did you help the others realize this? So, like if for our listeners, like how can they, what can they look for to try to make sure that they're the ones that are recognizing it too, as early as possible?

Problems Hide Between Functions

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Yeah. It ties into it ties into uh the world of cross-functional aspects, which which is the bread and butter that got me started into management consulting and and untangling complex challenges in general. Early on in my career as an engineer, I identified that the biggest problems are not within functions, they are between functions. So that's where where the one of the biggest problems in identification of issues lies, because every manager is responsible for their silo. And even if they do a great job within their area of responsibility, the the challenges that lie, the issues, the problems that lie between functions often go undetected because there it's kind of a no-man land. There are very few people in an organization that have the official responsibility and the interest in what happens between the functions. It's a CEO, CFO, but they're busy with finances, uh CIO, but they're busy with IT. COO, if exist in an organization. And if you look 20 years ago, COO was very rare to find. And today almost every company, even small startups, have a COO. That's one of the reasons. It took the industry uh uh a while to understand the the topic of cross-functional challenges. I picked it up over 30 years ago as a young engineer. So I put myself in the trenches of the cross-functional wherever I was reporting to, I always went outside my boundaries to deal with what I saw. So that's the reason that it takes it takes someone to step up or step out of their clear responsibility, give up, many times, give up the uh being safe because they expose themselves. Once you expose a problem that is bigger than in your department, you're risking uh getting pushback, you're risking stepping on other people's uh toes. You're you it's a ch it's uh it's a very uh risky move for anyone, and most people don't take that risk because they are afraid. What will people think? What will you know how how it will be taken? They're risking their position, uh, they come across as overpowering. So that those are the risks that one needs to take in order to actually address. It's like it's kind of like um the the boy in the story, uh famous uh historical story that the only the boy, the little boy in the street parade, uh had the courage to yell the the king is naked. Everyone else pretended that uh everything is fine. So you need that child in every organization, in every department, from my perspective, you need the whistleblower for just daily work when you identify that something doesn't align, that there is some disagreement, whether whether communicated or not, and especially if it's not on the table, find uh find a nice way to raise the issue.

Truth Over Politics At Work]

SPEAKER_01 11:27

What I really like about that is it's not about you know um your space, right? It's not about you. And it's really hard for anybody to say it's not about me. And that that enables you to look up. I always tell people, right, like you're looking down at your organization and what your responsibilities, and you have to step back and look up every now and then. And what I'm hearing from you is if you do this in these situations, you'll be able to observe it a lot faster.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you have to you have to give you have to give up uh being in full control uh and and look at the greater good. That's so that's so hard to, you know, I traditionally in all organizations that I worked in as an employee, and you know, I transitioned to be a consultant uh 22 years ago, but I I had a good amount of of experience being uh being an employee in both startups and larger companies. And I was always fascinated by the people who manage to um control their environment, kind of keep themselves safe from anything. And these are the good politicians. I was never a good politician, I'll never do well in politics because I insist on telling the truth, no matter how ugly it is. And it's fascinating how people, most people, choose to hold on to their safety, security, and looking good rather than the greater good that they are serving in. One of the reasons that I stayed a consultant, being an outsider, is I love that I don't have any political agenda. I do not have to worry about what people will think about me. I am bound to be fired. You know, when when the engagement ends, it ends. The the reason that I'm here is because you have problems. Once we help you enough that you don't need me anymore, great, I am successful. So from the get-go, my all my interests are in line with my client. It's not this way in the typical work environment, unfortunately. I when I coach people working in um in corporate, whether large or small companies, I coach them to um create relationships as if they are the owner of the company, if they're even if they're junior or if they're mid-management. You pretend that you it's your company. What would you do? And for the upper management, you pretend that you the you're the junior engineer that is now struggling there. What would you expect from your management chain? And just play that game of getting in each other's shoes and being in the same boat for real, manifested, not words, manifested in the quality of the relationships and your daily relationships and how you communicate and what you talk about.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

I love that. I tell my clients the same thing. I'm like, you are the CEO of whatever your responsibility is. And so you are empowered to do what you need to do to make those changes. So it's really important, like you said, that uh you need to be able to own that and recognize that, okay, if I'm in that role, I need to be able to do that. I love how you also say, okay, now put yourself in the shoes of another person that's reporting up to you. And what do you want from them? That's another question I ask my clients a lot when they're trying to figure out what somebody's thinking. I'm like, well, what would you want if you were in that position? Um, and a lot of times you can find the answer that way. So I really like that.

Map The System Before Fixing

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Now let's talk about the different methodology. Because I wanted to get to the next step. Because you said something I think really profound a few minutes ago, which was it's not about what's happening in the function, it's what happens between the functions. And a lot of times we learn as leaders or anywhere in business that it is the process that breaks down, not the people that break down. And um I think this is a little bit different way to look at it when you say between the functions. So can you go into kind of next steps a little bit around how to dig in here? What would you tell leaders to do next?

SPEAKER_00 16:07

Yes.

The Hidden Cost Of No Process

SPEAKER_00 16:08

The um I'm I'm laughing and it's sad. You say process and uh you say process breaks down, not the people. The one of the biggest problems that companies have in this day and age is lack of defined processes. So 20 years ago, in order to create any information system, to build any information system, you had to articulate in writing the all the processes involved, and they would be reviewed by all the subject matter experts, the functional, the cross-functional, everyone had to do an excellent work before you could even get the budget to start building a system. Today, with the advancements of technology, and I'm not even talking about generative AI. So this is a whole right now. The the problem that I'm describing is extrapolated dramatically, but I'm not talking about that yet. I'm talking, take three years back, just regular SaaS, software as a service. It's super easy to build anything. Uh, by the way, one of the the key expertise in my company, out of the box consulting, is Salesforce related. So Salesforce.com, the CRM Customer Relation Management System. We specialize in that. I've been around from the very beginning, and it was a breakthrough. It enabled us over 20 years ago, Salesforce brought to the market the ability to build a CRM system with a minimal investment. And it's super easy to configure. It was great. It it, you know, they're market leader, and it they really changed they they they rolled out the SaaS to the world and cloud in general. It's a double-edged sword. Now companies are paying the price. It's so easy to configure, and Salesforce is just an example. Um, many other systems, almost all information systems these days, so easy to configure that people and so cheap to get started that people just do it without uh articulating their business processes. Now it it this has been going on for two decades. At this point, people in the workforce, the majority of the workforce lost the skill, never had the skill, of defining and articulating and clarifying business processes. So by default, with a few exceptions, by default, and I see this day in and day out, most organization doesn't that, of course, the smaller ones suffer more, but even the bigger ones, if you don't have an elder that did this work and insists on it, then there is lack of processes defined. So it's it's worse than the processes break. The processes are not defined. That means that by definition, they're broken, and whatever is being done is inconsistent, and there is very little governance around it. So that's the current state of affairs, and now it's just going to be extrapolated further.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Uh, I think that's a really good ad. And so when you think about your point about between the functions, what would be some things for leaders to think about going in between those?

Build Cross-Functional Working Relationships

SPEAKER_00 19:52

Yeah. So collect, so the the first thing to do is to collect all the information and the the what I mean by all the information, it's the entities involved. Entity could be anything from a person, a team, a company, uh a system. Map all the different elements that are involved in the process. Tangent processes. Uh, this is no nothing new. It is this has been uh uh well-defined uh methodology for many years in process engineering. Just perform that and then identify the interactions between the different entities, articulate what's going on today, how it should be, you know, classic in management consulting, as is, to be, and gap. I do gap analysis, identify what needs to be worked on, who are the owners of each process, subprocess, each entity, each information system, who is the owner uh who's responsible to to um do the professional analysis of the the subject matter experts to uh to bring the material forth and then the process engineers to uh help them articulate it, and then take it from there. Now, this this part where you put things together and draw uh connections, that's where the cross-functional aspect comes in in full force because you have to involve different people who not always work together, or if they work together, they might be in conflict. The classic example in in one of my worlds of CRM is uh marketing and sales. Uh, there is a constant uh bad. Between them. The classic is uh you know, sales complain that uh that uh marketing doesn't give them uh good leads, and marketing uh complains that sales aren't uh don't understand and aren't doing what they should do with the MQLs that they're receiving, marketing qualified leads. So uh the art and any leader who uh goes at uh healing cross-functional aspects or working on cross-functional processes is to bring the people together. Remember our conversation about relationships and create that kind of relationship between the people involved from different functions, teach them how to work together, how to be on the same side, stop fighting, whether it's on the table or off the table, and work on things together. Today, with the attention span of people in general, and of course, leaders, um, it's very challenging to even get people together just to sit for an hour to to work on something without interruptions, etc. So the the art of getting this to work changes. I've been tracking it and adapting to what it takes to uh to create the results that people actually need. And most leaders today don't even have access to how to go about it. What worked 10 years ago doesn't work today.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Yeah, I love how you say the art because we talk about a lot with leaders that there's a science and an art, and this is the art part um of leadership. So really important point.

Why AI Won’t Fix The Basics

SPEAKER_01 23:50

And when you think about um, you know, the people you're working with and what you're seeing out there, what is one uncomfortable truth that you feel leaders need to hear right now?

SPEAKER_00 24:01

AI is going to fix it. That's the, or I mean, that's the lie. So the truth is AI, while it's very helpful, is not going to fix what you're expecting it to fix. At least in the in the foreseen future. Now, the the foreseen future is very short in the terms of what's going on with AI, right? So uh we don't know where we'll be in two months from now, but keep tracking in the there is a a current belief in the here in the Silicon Valley and and uh uh in the Silicon Valley here, it's in person, but also remotely in conversations with clients around the country and the world. There is this expectation, I hear it from senior leaders. Oh, we're going to do this with AI. Yeah, we even uh we built something a few years ago. Now it's gonna be much easier. Yes, it will help. Yes, you can you can accelerate a few things, but you're missing the basics that are broken. And if you don't fix the basics, you're just accelerating the the velocity of of the garbage that you're going to produce. So I think that's that's the uncomfortable truth that uh very few are willing to to cater because they're they're uh blinded by the shiny objects, which are really shiny and exciting. Everything is so exciting, but uh there is a lot more thought and diligence that have to have has to be put in right now.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

Yeah, I agree, and I think that there's things that we will enhance, but it's definitely not the silver bullet. So totally agree with you. I love that. Um, now when we were talking before, you have you talk about logic, creativity, and human dynamics, and that's all part of like what you work with and your methodology, but you have a story yourself of how you've gotten into this and recognized this framework. And I'd love for you to share that story with our listeners.

The Personal Story Behind The Method

SPEAKER_00 26:19

I I shared already that um um I think I shared that I defined a methodology called untangling complex challenges. Uh it um I realized that I defined a methodology about 15 years ago when uh my wife and I almost divorced over uh uh a crisis, uh definitely a crisis. And I would say after two years of back and forth about the topic, which was basically uh we were living here in California after moving from Israel, and uh and my wife wanted to go back to Israel, and I didn't. That's in a nutshell. And for two years we were working at it in different directions, and uh I thought we're managing to stay here, but one morning in uh in the summer of uh 2010 in our San Francisco condo at the at the kitchen counter, uh my wife said, I am um I want to go back. I said, you know, at this point, I really want to support you, but I don't see how I am uh going to uh get on a plane and uh Tel Aviv bound. Um and this was also uh an advancement of the the fact that I was in that stage of uh uh full compassion and willing to support was after a lot of uh growth and development work that I've been doing for several years at that point, along with my consulting business. And I was I was using my learnings and experiences in my personal journey of growth and development in my management consulting work, and I already started taking disciplines from the world of engineering and business and management consulting and bringing into my personal uh life. So I was pretty evolved at that point with this alchemy of uh cross-pollination between these two worlds that I was uh living in. But that um at that moment, with me wanting to help, but not knowing how was a new wall for me. And it I mean it's a little bit juicier than that. I said I if if to tell a story, then let's make it interesting. So I I said something like uh the only way that I would uh move to Israel is if you tell me that you're leaving me and taking the kids and going. And then she said, uh, okay, I'm leaving you. I'm taking the kids and going. And that was kind of like I did not expect that. That's when I really realized that I have to deal with this in a totally different way, and I had no clue. So it took me about half a day to um understand the lay of the land, and I I literally I still have somewhere the page that I I did three columns and my options, and you know, one of the options was to just uh let go and and go with them. But I I I felt sick only thinking of that. And another option was to just um let them go, and I'll stay in California and we'll figure it out, and that felt really good, but I knew that it will be very quick until we we separate. And I didn't want to be away from my kids, they were very young at that point. Not that today, today there isn't they're in their 20s, and I still don't want to be far away, but that's a different story. But that's another episode, it's another episode. Uh and the third option was to just keep on trying, uh, like we did before and figure it out, but that didn't fly anymore. So uh I didn't like any of the options, and what I found myself doing is uh performing the work that I typically do with my clients in management consulting, but with a much uh deeper uh uh level of my humanity. My when I say my humanity, it what I mean by that it is what constructs a human being. And at that point, I was educated and experienced enough to actually tap into that, just to give a glimpse, my body, my intellect, my emotional self, and even my spiritual self. And I had to tap into all of those and work with professionals that um I worked with in the past in my learning and experiencing to create, to basically recreate myself, who I am, not only in this specific matter, which I got really clear very fast that I don't want to break up our family. That within that first day, I was clear about that, but I had no idea how to do it. So it took several weeks of really intentional and hard work. And in that work, I found that I'm actually completing the that merge, that alchemy between my personal inner world and my professional work. And I found myself um creating uh the the uh very different flow charts that are more emotional, that include emotions and spirit and uh aspects of of my true commitments in life way beyond the material itself. And then as a result, I noticed that uh okay, this this is a methodology that I I never used before with people just as people, you know, here and there uh in in corporate environments you get that opportunity to work with people, executive coaching, and and go into into uh you know into personal details with, but it I saw that as one-offs and just part of the work that I do. Suddenly it dawned on me that I'm that I'm here to serve uh people, even if they're not in corporate environments. After I did that on myself, and it was successful. So, long story short, we moved after six weeks, I think it was a very quick uh move. We we moved. Uh, I was in a supportive uh place. I reinvented myself, I started a new business in in Israel as we moved. We ended up returning to California just about half a year later, due to other surgical to my credit, we can't to my credit, just for the record, I did not say I told you. It was all her. She moved us there, she moved us back, everything is fine. But but that's where untangling complex challenges as a methodology was was created. And I started uh uh working at that as a as another line of business with with people at large.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Yeah, I thank you for sharing your story. And what's great about that is there are times in our personal life that can teach us how to be a better professional and vice versa. And I think that's the key piece here is understanding that. And you talk about all parts of your system, right? Your spiritual self, what you want internally, what's happening externally. And that's something that I work with my clients on too, is it's not just about skill set, it's also about your mindset and about your body and what how you are healthy too. And I I think of it as a three-legged stool. So I love that you brought those pieces in. Really, really cool point. So thank you for sharing. All right.

Fun Questions And Contact Info

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Well, there's that sound. It's time for our fun questions. Are you ready for our questions?

SPEAKER_00 35:04

I was born ready for your question.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

All right, awesome. I love it. I love it. Okay. The first question is do you naturally wake up early or stay up late? Stay up late. You stay up late, you're a night owl. I am an early bird. I am not a night owl. As hard as I try, it doesn't work. So um, is that like your best thinking time when you do that?

SPEAKER_00 35:26

Not necessarily. However, somet I found myself sometimes when there is a challenge that I that I'm committed to to breaking through, I'll stay a whole night. I'll see the I'll see the sunrise. Uh just to yeah, just to nail it. I can't go to sleep. If there is something that I'm really excited about that needs to be resolved.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

That's great. That's great. Okay. Would you rather spend a night at a concert or laughing at a comedy show?

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Ooh, I love both, but um my record proves the first. I spent the night, I I I spent the night of the millennium at the pyramids of Giza in Egypt for a whole night experience of Jean-Michel Jacques, the godfather of the electronic music. The pyramids were the stage. So there was a night concert and then another concert uh at dawn. So yeah, I like comedy as well, but concerts.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

Yeah, that's a pretty, pretty cool concert for sure. Well, so Reuven, if people want to get a hold of you, where can they find you?

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Uh, reuven shelf.com, my website, and uh I put up a special uh page. I I love hearing from people what they're dealing with. So feel free to reach out. You can book half an hour with me at no charge at this point. Uh meetreuven.com, and I'm sure you'll have the links in the show notes.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Yes, we will absolutely put those in the show notes. Wonderful. Well, Reuven, thank you so much for your time. I thought you brought some great insights for our listeners to walk away with and how they're going to be able to move forward working through some chaos that might be happening in their time, whether it's personal or professional. So really appreciate your time today.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

Well, thank you very much for having me. It was a pleasure.

Closing Thoughts And Ways To Engage

SPEAKER_02 37:24

If you enjoyed the show, please go to LeadershipMoments Podcast.com to subscribe to the podcast or on your favorite player, as well as follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

You can also send us a message on what you like and don't like, or what guests you want us to have on the show. So until next time, this is Stacey Caster, and what doesn't challenge you won't change you.

SPEAKER_02 37:45

And I'm Tracy Ann Palmer. Be the change you wish to see in the world.