Overcoming Roadblocks in Leadership w/ Mike Krupit

Mike Krupit is the founder and CEO of Trajectify, a forward-thinking company dedicated to guiding organizations through strategic decisions in complex environments. With an extensive background in leadership and strategy, he brings a unique perspective that combines strategic expertise with an understanding of human behavior and organizational dynamics. Mike is also a seasoned advisor to CEOs and has worked across various startups, imparting his vast knowledge to aid leaders in evolving their management styles in tune with the demands of modern business climates.

Mike and Tracy-Ann explore the vital shifts in leadership styles required to meet the expectations of a multigenerational workforce. They emphasize the importance of adapting leadership strategies to engage younger generations, who prefer more participative management models over traditional autocratic styles. The conversation touches on managing up and down within organizations, ensuring that leaders are not only inspiring but also effectively balancing the needs of their teams with those of higher management. The episode also delves into how culture impacts organizations' overall performance, and the crucial role leaders play in fostering a positive and productive workplace environment.

Key Takeaways:

• Leadership is often tested in times of uncertainty and requires conviction, clarity, and courage.
• Adapting leadership styles to meet the expectations of different generations is crucial for modern organizational success.
• Managing both up and down effectively within organizations is critical for maintaining respect and alignment.
• Culture plays a pivotal role in organizational performance, contributing to employee well-being and productivity.
• Great leadership thrives not just on professional competence but on understanding and nurturing human dynamics within teams.

Notable Quotes:

1. "Some of the most important leadership moments don't always happen when everything is going right."
2. "Reality refuses to cooperate with a strategy that looks good on paper."
3. "What got them there was not going to get them to the next level."
4. "Leadership is not just about making decisions; it's about navigating human behavior and uncertainty."

All episodes and guest requests can be found at:
www.leadershipmomentspodcast.com
Follow Stacey Caster on Instagram @staceycaster_
Follow Tracy-Ann Palmer on Instagram @tracy_ann_palmer

Transcript

Walk The Talk As A Leader

SPEAKER_03 0:01

You have to walk the tongue. You have to be authentic as a leader if you're not doing it. They see that.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

It is entirely universal. There's other people who are going through this.

SPEAKER_03 0:11

For me, a great leader needs to be able to marry three things: vision, systems, and people.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Welcome to Leadership Moments if this is your first time. And if you are returning, thank you for your support.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

This show is about leaders from all walks of life, leadership tips, and maybe even a little of what you wouldn't expect to help you in leadership.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

We would appreciate it if you tell someone else about our podcast as we strive to support all leaders that want to just be better.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Let's get on with the show.

Leading When Things Get Messy

SPEAKER_02 0:43

So some of the most important leadership moments don't always happen when everything is going right. And they always happen when everything feels uncertain or it's messy or it's unclear. When the strategy looks really good on paper, but reality refuses to cooperate. Today's conversation is about that space. The space where leaders don't always have all the answers and they still have to show up with conviction, with clarity, and with courage. And joining me today is someone who has spent his career helping leaders navigate exactly that. So Mike Crappett is with us today. He is the founder and CEO of Trajectify. It's a company focused on helping organizations make strategic decisions in very complex environments. But what makes Mike different is not is he only an expert in strategy, he also has an understanding that leadership is not just about making decisions. It's about navigating human behavior, it's about uncertainty, and it's about competing with priorities in real time. So with that, Mike, great to have you with us today. Thank you so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Thank you for having me, Tracy. And I'm looking forward to today's

Building Empathy Through Vulnerability

SPEAKER_00 2:17

conversation. When I started my career, I was in academia studying mathematics and computer science. And my first job at a college was controlling satellites, the command and control software. I was so much better with technology than I was with people. And to think, you know, to look back now 40 years later and say, what? I'm good with better with people than technology was a pivot that I never saw coming and I don't even remember doing. But along the way, I learned from you know having the opportunity to spend time in some Silicon Valley and Northeast startups that grow very quickly. I learned how important it was to be good with people, how that was the transferable skill from company to company or even department to department that makes one successful. And so over the course of 15, 20 years, I took myself on that journey. And when I said no more startups, it was like, well, what do I want to be when I grow up? I'm going to help others on that same journey.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

What did you learn about yourself? And what are the things that you had to maybe improve upon to get you to where you are?

SPEAKER_00 3:33

I think it all comes down to empathy, which for some people isn't natural. For me, it wasn't natural. Or at least it didn't feel natural until I learned something which I'll share in a moment. But we all think we can learn empathy, right? It's like, all right, well, I get it, sympathy. I'm just going to put myself in other people's shoes and I'm going to study the platinum rule and the golden rule and and and um do unto others. And we still aren't succeeding in connecting with people. And um maybe even I think there was a period of time I studied emotional intelligence when when Daniel Coleman came out with the book. And it's like, all right, well, you need to know this. Um, and and all of the coaching and training and reading I did still wasn't enough to be considered for me to consider myself empathetic until I heard Brene Brown say one day that the relationship you have with others is only in deep and meaningful as the relationship you have with yourself. And that was when I realized, well, I'm the one who's a little bit messed up here. I have walls around my own emotions. Let me break them down. And once I broke down those walls and could feel the things that I had been ignoring for much of my life, then I was able to be way more empathetic with others, all of my relationships within the business, the coaching I was doing with my clients, or even within my own family, with my kids. Everything improved. It's about willingness to be vulnerable. And in especially in business, we don't value that, right? It's like, oh, you're too vulnerable, oh, you're sharing too much. Um, you need to look perfect, you need to look powerful. And sometimes it's just like, well, I thought I have this, but I don't have it, and I've got to be able to share it. I gotta be able to admit I made a mistake, and I've got to, you know, I have to be willing to feel things and share that I feel things.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

We when we were chatting the other day, we would, I mean, we we spoke about a lot of topics. We went all over the we went all over the place. But as you think about what you have seen, I want to start here, as what what you've seen in your career, okay. Uh, I think you've you were in sort of eight startups, right? Um, you you've just had a wealth of experience, plus you've worked with all the CEOs and your own coaching business. I I want to ask you, what what is what are some of the big gaps you're seeing?

Right People In The Right Seats

SPEAKER_00 6:11

The biggest gap would be not knowing that you have whether you have the right people in the right seats. Um, especially if you're in a young company that's that's growing, that may be growing faster than the individuals, that the people who you needed at the beginning aren't the people who you need in the middle now, um, that you may not have the experience in building organizations yourself. Um, right, if you're a if you're a founder, if you're an owner, um, you may have never had in your career to to to have 50 or 100 or 200 people reporting to you. And so it it really is about understanding organization. Organizational development is often work that we end up doing before even doing strategic development, right? The strategy never works, can't be implemented if we don't have the right people on the right seats.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

Yeah, I think that's a that that's a big one. I mean, I I know uh what you just said really resonated with me because I know some big public companies who grew up so fast. And so what took them there, you know, a lot of those leaders were still young and and not mature enough. So they really had to evolve the whole company to bring in, you know, more public, uh, mature people who had had, you know, 30 years of experience because what got them there was not going to get them to the next level.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

And it's and it's very difficult and and sometimes very personal to deal with it. I had, you know, I I've done a number, I facilitated a number of founder divorces in recent years because people who founded a business together ended up, you know, reaching a stalemate, right? They couldn't figure out where were they couldn't be agree on where they wanted to go next, or they couldn't work together because they had grown into resenting one another because they each were wired differently. Um, but but you know, one one one story to sort of identify how difficult this can be is I had a client who was the company was about eight years old, had someone who was with him since the beginning, was his first hire, um, was very effective until about the sixth year, and then stopped being effective. The CEO put a lot of pressure on him, still wasn't succeeding. So that person became a poison apple and started to infect others in the company with a little bit of toxicity. And the founder still didn't want to deal with it. Two years of toxicity, and he didn't want to deal with it because, well, that person, I want to give them a shot because they were with me since the beginning, and I feel bad about it, and I don't want to have that difficult conversation. There were lots of excuses about why not to, right? Some of it's fear, and fear is often, you know, a the root cause of what holds people back from making some of these tough decisions in their business. And this was just, you know, they were with me from the beginning. I owe it to them.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Yeah. The problem with that, Mike, though, to your point, is uh, you know, make it has consequences. Right. Uh, and uh one of the things, you know, in in our leadership programs, when I've asked our managers what frustrates you the most about your leaders, and what they say is they don't make they don't make decisions. They're just procrastinating, they sit on this, right? And that starts to wean in on the team because the team starts to get, you know, um disrespect the leadership, right? Uh and then it's also about well, you as a leader on standing up for what we're meant to believe in, uh, and you know, you're not putting the business first, meaning the compass has always got to do be what you do the right thing for the business, because that means you're doing the right thing for the team, right? So I love I love what you said there because uh I think there are many leaders who do fall into that trap because it's hard, it's really difficult.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

It's difficult and it's scary, and and they avoid it, right? They avoid, let's let me let me work on the things that I'm better at or that I feel more confident about, or that I have more data about. That's a big issue now, is we're dealing with um too much data, data overload, which is especially given how quickly AI is is being adopted. Um, we're beginning to see them avoid decisions where there may not be enough data because now there's this large, there's this expectation that we have a large amount of data to support every decision.

Structure Without Micromanagement

SPEAKER_02 10:42

So on the note of leadership, we spoke a little bit about autocratic leadership, right? So we've got you know various generations that are in the workplace. I know when I was, you know, growing up, uh, it was very much more of a bureaucratic, autocratic leadership style. Uh, as the younger generations come in, that is that is not what they're looking for, I would say, uh, for the most part. Uh so I'm curious, like, what do you see? What is your perspective on that? And and how should we be leading the companies of the future?

SPEAKER_00 11:21

I think there's a number of different coaching models. And in part, some of it might be based upon generation, how um, you know, how we were treated in school, how we were raised. Part of it's also based upon your strengths, your individual strengths, like how what you respond well to. And you know what? It it could be multiple styles given whatever I'm trying, whatever skill I'm trying to master. Um, but I if I if I if I can generalize about it, I would say that certainly the younger people in the workplace today say they don't want structure, but perform better under structure. And so it's a matter of how you do it. So, for example, the the autocratic model isn't bad, right? It doesn't have to mean micromanagement, right? Which is the scary word for everyone today. But it can mean breaking things up into lots of little steps. And so, so for you know, for me, uh a story I've shared about my own autocratic, um, uh being coached in an autocratic way was when I had a um, I I have a fear of heights, and I took my family um repelling, and we had a guide, and everybody went down off the cliff except for me. My knees buckled every time I got to the edge. And and the guide finally decided that they're gonna try autocratic coaching with me. And they said, you know, turn around, bend your right leg, um, bend your right knee, um, put your left foot back at one half a step. And they must have broken it up into a hundred different instructions and got me off the edge. Right. And so my it wasn't like, hey, you micromanaged me, it was, I don't think I would have gotten off any other way, right? Or, you know, got you know, felt jumped off the cliff any other way. And so um, so having, you know, being really granular, taking things in small steps, um, being more communicative than we're used to being in the workplace, um, benefits everyone. It it really does benefit everyone, especially when we're dealing with it, you know, today in in you know, remote organizations or distributed or hybrid teams.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

Yeah, I I totally agree with you on that. And and I and I do believe that we say uh we don't want the structure, but we need structure. Our lives show us that we need structure, we need a form of a routine, a cadence. Uh, we function better, we're more productive. I have to just tell you a real funny story. That story you just told, okay, I'm petrified of heights. So I take my team to a ropes course, right? And there is a 30-foot pole. You gotta climb up, get to the top, and of course, I have the whole team do it except me. And the leader that we were under, the corporate coaching organization, came up to me. I'm still very good friends with him today, and he said, You're the leader. You can't have everyone else climb the 30-foot pole, but you say you're not climbing the 30-foot pole. You better get up there and climb the 30-foot pole. I did it, but I can tell you, Mike, I was petrified, and he didn't give me the guidance you got given, which I did the whole time you were probably thinking about how you're gonna feel when you're at the top.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

So it was that fear that was holding you back when all you really needed to do was take, you know, one step up the pole, and another step up the pole, another step up the pole. It was just a series of lots of little steps, and then you're gonna come down safely because you knew it was safe. You sent your whole team up there. And and so um, it just needed to be someone distracting you from the enormity of the goal.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

Yeah. Well, and I love that you say that because how many times we work on these massive, big, complex projects, which for most people, you know, when you when you're the leader and you're sharing the vision, that just seems so overwhelming. But if you break that down into the palatable steps and you take it step by step, how easy not easy, but it's certainly easier, and it's simpler for people to just understand, oh yeah, I just gotta do this little piece now. I gotta do, you know, you break it up into those palatable chunks. So it makes perfect sense. Perfect sense.

Boundaries That Improve Execution

SPEAKER_00 15:47

It does. And and boundaries, you know, you know, so the the micro steps are great and the boundaries are too. In fact, I love boundaries, and I encourage people to write their boundaries down to remind themselves, whether it's boundaries and going into a difficult conversation or boundaries in terms of what you're willing to negotiate in terms of a deal. And and I and I learned it very early in my career with one of the one of the first leadership positions I had where I was mostly a technology leader. And then one of my CEOs asked me to take over the art, the design department, what we call it today, the design department. It was in the very early days of dot-com. So the first commercial websites. So most of the designers were graphic designers, not used to designing for digital. And we had an art department that worked side by side with our product managers and our engineers. And they would always late because they were never done, right? Because art is never done. And once I took it over, it's like we we have to work with boundaries, right? We need this done by this date. And the director, the art director, is like, we can't work that way. And so um, I brought in, I got rid of them. And I took two of the younger people in the team and promoted them and said, We're designers who design specifically for the usability of this website. This is not an art project, it's a design project for this purpose. Here's this, here's the boundary, here's the screen, right? You need to fill in the blanks with this outcome. And I turned it into a math problem. And everybody said they're gonna hate this. And they actually loved it. Why? Even though they felt like it might have constrained them, the rest of the team loved working with them now. Hey, the designers are gonna get us what we need by the deadline, we're gonna be able to launch on time. Hey, they didn't redesign the whole page, they just put what was in this section. Um, they did what we needed them to do. And so um, so even for the creative mind, sometimes having boundaries makes you happier, makes you more, you know, improves your outcomes.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Yeah, because you you're actually achieving something and you're getting somewhere, right? There's nothing worse than going in every single day and feeling that you're, you know, you're not hitting your stride or you're not accomplishing anything or you're not having impact, right? And that's what happens if it just keeps going

Managing Up With More Authority

SPEAKER_02 18:23

on and on. And on that note, I I wanted I wanted to talk a little bit about uh the complexity of managing up, managing down. As leaders, what I have seen over the course of my career is some are really, really good. Some leaders are really good at managing up. They do a fantastic job. And they're not as good as managing down and taking care of the team. There's others that are really good at taking care of the team, but not as good as managing up. How do you balance that, Mike? It's you know, it's tough.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Yeah, especially with the um the growth of middle management today um in these distributed and hybrid organizations where we just need more communication. So we need um we need smaller teams with more management. Um, and and I'm completely in favor of that. Um, but we have more people in the middle who have to get good at both managing down and managing up. And and I think you have to the the the there's a lot written about managing down, right? A lot of leadership um books and leadership coaches talk about managing down. Very few talk about the managing up because it's a lot harder. I've also started doing some work within corporate environments, and I don't come from an enterprise background, I come from a startup background, so you didn't have a lot of experience there, didn't feel completely competent there until I started working there and said, Oh, they have the same challenges that everyone else has, right? We're all alike. Um, and and and and someone was someone in one of these sessions once asked, Um, how I'm having trouble working with someone whose opinions I don't respect. How do I show respect to them? And after chatting with them for a few minutes, we discovered that that was their boss, which completely shifted the conversation to strategies for managing up, right? Because in corporate, you don't get to pick your boss, but you know what? In most businesses, we don't get to pick our boss. And so, how do we get what we need from our boss when naturally it's not coming? Um, how do we get to set an agenda when um when we don't feel like we have the power to do that? And so there's the and there's a lot there, and we could talk about that for for a couple of hours. Um, but um the the biggest lesson learned in managing up is reminding people that they have more authority than they think. Um it's it's almost like that old saying um it's better to ask for forgiveness than it is for permission. In many environments, especially ones that have focused on safety, like being able to make mistakes or psychological safety, where people value us that we tried. So, so for example, I I had a a client, a number of clients say, My boss keeps canceling our one-on-ones. What do I do? And I says, Well, just put a one-on-one on their calendar. It's like, oh, I can't, I can't schedule on my boss's calendar. So, is that a rule? Did they tell you that? Well, no. It's like, so try it. And every time they go to put a meeting on their a one-on-one on their boss's calendar, the boss accepted it and they met. Um, and then I'll suggest, hey, put an agenda in that invite too. Tell them what you want to talk about.

unknown 21:59

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

They're going to just talk about what they want to talk about. Well, not if they see the agenda first and they'll fee pr feel prepared. And again, you get to you get to control the meeting that way. And so just there's if we're as conscientious about managing up as we are about managing down, it's really doable.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

Yeah, and I love that because you know the the agenda is actually a really good example. Uh, if you show up with an agenda, uh your your leader is probably going to be really happy about that.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Yes. Like I don't have to, I don't have to think about what to what to talk about for 20 minutes or 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

Exactly. You know, and and you're coming to the table with here's here's my update, and here's the things that I need your help on. Right? I mean, that's what I mean, and then do you have anything for me? Right?

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Exactly, right? You know, it's we don't get to ask the questions now.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

Yes, exactly. And then they are, you know, they they are receiving information and updates that they probably need about their organization, while at the same time you're showing up prepared, right? Uh, demonstrating that you're doing what you need to be doing, that you're having an impact on the organization. So it makes it makes total

Culture Starts With Hiring And Values

SPEAKER_02 23:20

sense. Now, something else that uh we've sort of spoken about is culture. Look, there are a lot of books on culture, there's a lot of discussion on culture. Uh, and you know, I I believe culture is all of us, right? Culture is not something that is one person, it's it's all of us. I I I'm very curious though. Uh you've you've seen corporate, you've seen startup. I know uh I have certain perspectives myself on how I think it it impacts the org. What is your point of view? I mean, how important is culture?

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Well, uh I agree with you, and and and it's not necessarily a popular review, popular view that we don't get to control culture. We get to control the variables that might be the catalyst for culture, but ultimately culture is the sum of all the people who we hire. So we do get to control who we hire. We do get to hopefully have a stated core values and hire an alignment with those values. And then hopefully, we're also um uh we've adopted a leadership philosophy that that impacts culture. So the people you hire, the values that you've aligned them with, and the style of leadership you employ all uh are what create the culture based upon the the people who are in the organization or the team. Um and so I don't think we get to control the culture, we get to control the environment a little bit, right? Are we gonna give you free soda or not? But we don't get to, we don't we don't get to control the behaviors except through the values and the people. And um and so uh what I what I when I get organizations to focus on values, they do a much better job of hiring. When they're thinking about culture, they hire people like them. And that's just a bad organization. And so so I like for people not to think about culture, but to let it happen organically and to focus on hiring values and values hiring and leadership style.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

I love that. I love that because you know, I uh I actually love culture. I think that it's contagious, it's exciting, you feel like you're part of a corporate family or a startup family, whatever it is, and it absolutely improves the well-being. And I think that just the the individuals who come in every day, right? They're more productive, they're happier, it creates for a much more productive and accelerated uh you know, company in my mind, right? You know, just because people want to be there, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:00

But they say that people don't quit jobs or companies, they quit bosses.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

And so it's not we could have the greatest culture, but if I'm being micromanaged all the time, if I'm being treated poorly, if I'm being given more work than I can handle, if someone's just not listening, my boss isn't listening to me, it doesn't matter how good the culture is.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

That's right. That's right. Yeah, so that's another whole nother topic because uh you and I did discuss this. Not all managers slash leaders are good.

Who Should Become A Leader

SPEAKER_02 26:33

Being a good employee or a productive employee doesn't necessarily make you a good leader or manager. So, in your mind, if you are coaching, you know, leaders or CEOs and they're looking at who are they bringing up, what's maybe some of the advice you would give them about who should they be fitting into leadership roles?

SPEAKER_00 26:54

I I think we have to understand people's strengths. Um, that there are, you know, it's not just about, you know, are they using old terms, right? An introvert or an extrovert, are they are they structured or not structured? But we we do have to understand their strengths and how they deal with stress and how they deal with conflict and how they communicate, right? Some of the cornerstones, the basic building blocks of of good leadership. Um, so the fact that you're a master of a particular trade or science or knowledge base doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be a good leader. Um, and in fact, historically, companies have used leadership management and leadership as a as a path to promote people and grow people and often neglect the individual contributor professional development path, which now a lot of a lot of organizations are are backtracking on, saying this person didn't succeed as a leader. They should have been a principal engineer or a you know a you know a senior designer. And so we we promoted someone we shouldn't have because we thought that was the only path. So they're beginning to think about what are the paths for individual contributors as well as managers. Um, but but it's there's a um a competency matrix I use often often use from an article about high uh developing um high potential leaders from Harvard Business Review. It's it's great, it's a competency matrix with about 10 different factors, but it gives you the traits to look for um along each of those, the the scale of each of those factors, right? Is somebody you know thinking um you know structured within their department have or have they exhibited the ability to think um cross-departmentally? Right? Somebody, you know, somebody who's who's good at cross-departmental thinking or actions is more likely to be a good manager than not. And so it's a there's a competency matrix that I like because it it I like that competency matrix because it puts in words and and a diagram exactly what we're talking about in terms of what makes a good leader and what what doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

What really defines great leadership?

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Trust and autonomy, the ability to develop other people. Um, I I think that those those are very common areas. Like I find, I find people not good at leading others because they won't delegate, or not good at leading others because they're undercommunicating. Um and so um, or or they they don't make a decision when when they're in conflict or they avoid conflict. These are factors that we often see leaders get tripped up in. Um, and some of them can be developed, which is why I suggest looking at strengths, because even if somebody hasn't exhibited it yet, we can coach them or train or or train them to develop it. And that that's one of the biggest mistakes we have in developing new talent, new management and leadership talent is we underinvest. And I do think that everybody should have a good boss, meaning, let's call that a role model. A boss who's a role model. We should have a mentor, someone who's walked in our shoes, been on the path that we've been on. We should have a coach and we should have training. And if we skimp on any of those, people struggle in their in their in their career, in their journey is becoming a manager and a leader.

Vulnerability And Mindset To Close

SPEAKER_02 30:22

Yeah, I totally agree with you. We're I am so so aligned. Uh, if there is, I know we're coming to sort of the end here, if there is one piece of advice that you wanted to give our audience today, what would that be?

SPEAKER_00 30:38

One, I would start with the be vulnerable. Allow yourself to be vulnerable. Um don't think you always need to put on an act, put on a face, cover something up. That the best leaders are the ones who who accept and embrace vulnerability. It creates a safe environment where we're giving people permission to do this for themselves as well, do this themselves as well.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

Mike, this has been really, really powerful. And you know, I know that uh you've got so so much wisdom and knowledge around this topic. You've spent so much time with with leaders, and and I really want to encourage our audience uh to reach out to you to understand more about the work that Mike and them are doing. It's it's it's really great work. And you know, remember, these roles we have, uh it's all about complexity. It's all about transformation, right? I mean, that that is the it's all about pressure, like all the things that Mike, you're talking about, that is that is what leaders do, right? That is that is what we're paid to do. So uh, you know, uh, I don't know if you've got any any words on that, but I'd I'd certainly uh any piece of advice for for the team uh for the audience on that.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

It's it's all about mindset, right? And and we didn't talk a lot about mindset today, but I remember when I got my first management job uh or my management promotion, um, and I and I went home to my to my wife and she said, How was your day? And I said, It was awful. I spent the entire day in meetings. And she looks at me and says, Isn't that your job now? And I realized that, you know, yes, being with people all day long, um, and delayed gratification of knowing that the outcomes will be in the future, not immediate, is is something that um, you know, something that kept me, you know, accepting that kept me going.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

Yeah, for sure. Well, Mike, thank you so much for being with us. It's been such a privilege and an honor. And uh, I'm sure we'll have you back on. I'm sure we will.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

I would look forward to it. Love to keep the conversation going. Thank you for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 33:00

If you enjoyed the show, please go to LeadershipMoments Podcast.com to subscribe to the podcast or on your favorite player, as well as follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

You can also send us a message on what you like and don't like or what guests you want us to have on the show.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

So until next time.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

This is Stacy Caster, and what doesn't challenge you won't change you.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

And I'm Tracy Ann Palmer. Be the change you wish to see in the world.