Mastering Delegation: The CASE Method w/ Atiba de Souza

Atiba de Souza is a distinguished author, entrepreneur, and relationship mentor known for his expertise in leadership and team dynamics. With over 25 years of experience, he has led various enterprises including gyms, bakeries, and food service companies. Additionally, he has coached national championship youth football teams, demonstrating his prowess in transforming average performance into excellence. Atiba is the author of "The Delegation Trap: It's Not Them, It's You," which provides leaders with strategies to delegate effectively and relieve burnout. His mission is to guide overwhelmed bosses into becoming confident leaders whose teams thrive independently.

The episode dives deep into the realm of effective delegation, with Atiba explaining his unique approach to empowering his teams through the "case method." This approach, built on the pillars of Challenge, Articulate, Study, and Ease, aims to develop self-sufficiency among employees. Atiba stresses the role of leaders as facilitators of growth rather than authoritarian figures and highlights the necessity of leaders continuing to evolve themselves to raise their team's capabilities. Atiba's insights offer a modern perspective on leadership challenges, especially pertinent in the ever-evolving digital landscape where delegation and innovation are key to success.

Key Takeaways:

• Authentic Leadership: Taking ownership of leadership mistakes leads to growth and transformation.
• Case Method of Delegation: A framework focusing on Challenge, Articulate, Study, and Ease to foster self-sufficient teams.
• Continuous Learning: Leaders must constantly evolve to effectively guide and inspire their teams.
• Power of Questions: Crafting the right questions facilitates employee growth and engagement.
• Vision and Ownership: Clear vision casting allows employees to take ownership and excel beyond expectations.

Notable Quotes:

• "Your organization can only go as high as the lid of the leader." – Atiba de Souza
• "The questions that you ask are going to make or break your leadership." – Atiba de Souza
• "It's not them, it's you." – Atiba de Souza

Resources:

• Book: The Delegation Trap - Available at thedelegationtrap.com

All episodes and guest requests can be found at:
www.leadershipmomentspodcast.com
Follow Stacey Caster on Instagram @staceycaster_
Follow Tracy-Ann Palmer on Instagram @tracy_ann_palmer

Transcript

Authentic Leadership Starts With Actions

SPEAKER_04 0:01

You have to walk the tongue. You have to be authentic as a leader. If you're not doing it, they see that.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

It is entirely universal. There's other people who are going through this.

SPEAKER_04 0:11

For me, a great leader needs to be able to marry three things vision, systems, and people.

Welcome And The Delegation Setup

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Welcome to Leadership Moments if this is your first time. And if you are returning, thank you for your support.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

This show is about leaders from all books of life, leadership tips, and maybe even a little of what you wouldn't expect to help you in leadership.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

We would appreciate it if you tell someone else about our podcast as we strive to support all leaders that want to just be better.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Let's get on with the show.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Today our guest is Atiba D'Souza. Atiba is an author, entrepreneur, and relationship mentor who helps leaders break free from burnout and build teams that take ownership. He wrote the delegation trap, It's Not Them, It's You, a story-driven guide teaching leaders how to let go of every task and get results that shine. With 25 plus years of running gyms, bakeries, and food service companies, and coaching national championship youth football teams, he knows firsthand what it takes to turn average performance into excellence. His mission is simple: transform overwhelmed bosses into competent leaders of teams that thrive, even when they're not in the room. Today, you guessed it, we're going to talk about delegation and how leaders can perform better and just be better. Let's jump in.

The SEO Hire And Six Tears

SPEAKER_02 1:51

We all know it's not a good thing. It definitely doesn't show that you're a good leader if that happens. And uh that happened to you. So I'd love for you to just start off on going into that story so people understand what happened. How'd you make someone cry and why?

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Yeah, and I'm gonna say, Stacey, first and foremost, it's not my proudest moment. But out of it came beauty, but it's not my proudest moment. So here's what happened: I decided that after 20 odd years, I was going to hire and train someone to do SEO, which I was the only one in my company for a long time who was doing SEO because I had all of the experience and all of the knowledge. And so I hired this young lady. I'm an adult man. I hired this young lady, she's 22 years old, brand new. This is her second job, but she's one of those people, and and I know we've all met these people, one of these young people, and when you meet them, you're just like, wow, like your future is so bright. Yes, right, and you just want to pour into them, and that's who she was when she interviewed with me, and I was so excited, and then we started. And in the first eight weeks of her working for me, we met weekly on a Tuesday morning. In the first eight weeks, six out of those eight weeks, she left the meeting crying. So it wasn't that I made her cry once, six times in a row. She left the meeting crying, she left the meeting feeling inadequate. She left the meeting feeling like I can't do this, I can never be you. You've got all of this experience. I you have as much experience as I have life on earth. How could you expect me to do this? I'm not capable, I'm not good enough. She felt like a failure. One, that's bad leadership. Two, the optics of a grown man making a young girl cry just makes it worse. Interestingly, in it's within the depth, and I know we're going to talk a lot about this today, but it's within the depth of that feeling bad, that brokenness, that just sense of dread. Like, I can't do this again with her. I I mean, I got no pleasure out of making someone cry. Like, we can't do this for another week, came absolute beauty.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Yeah, yeah. And I do want to get into that because one, I think, first of all, you recognized, uh-oh, this did not go as I expected, and I need to look inward, which is huge for a leader to recognize that. So that's a huge step. Um, and so I want to get into like what you did and and how you rectified this and stuff. But first, for our listeners that are still asking, what is SEO? Can you just explain that real quick? It's not our topic, but I think some people want to know what you did. So can you just explain that real quick?

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Yeah, no, absolutely. Um, so SEO search engine optimization was how you got your website to the top of Google. Now it's 2026 and beyond. And so SEO, GEO, AEO is evolved, but it's all about how do you get your message found when someone is looking for you.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

That's right. Great. Thank you. Just wanted to make sure our listeners knew what that was. And so let's get back to

Looking Inward As The Common Denominator

SPEAKER_02 5:33

the story now. Let's so you made this new younger employee cry. You obviously had a reflection moment. So I'd like to talk about you first because I think it's so important for leaders to look inward and realize the impact they have on others. And so, can you talk a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Yeah, you know, and I'm glad that you brought this to the fore because you said it just now. And if you hadn't, I wanted to go there because it's one of those things where it's so easy and it's so often that when something goes wrong, the thing that we do is point the finger out. The thing that we do is find where the blame lies, right? But I was just helping uh another um um entrepreneur who lost four salespeople in a matter of matter of 45 days in 2026. And she's like, hey, I just want to go hire AI to do my sales. Like, what was the common denominator in all four of those salespeople who you lost? And you see, and that's the thing for us as leaders is we have to realize we are the common denominator. We have to realize that when something goes wrong, it's on us. It is on us. Okay, 100% and absolutely on us.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

Yeah, I always say it's the process that fails people, not the people. So it's our process, how we're doing things, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:11

And it's a point of growth, you know, and and so for me, when things go awry in in the company, and and they do, let's let's face facts, things do go awry. My thought, and I usually go take a walk to do this, but my thought is okay, where do I need to grow in order for this to never happen again? That's the first thought. Because if I grow, then the team grows. Right? Um, John Maxwell in his book, The 241 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership. Um, I read that back in 2000 and it's stayed with me ever since. And the law of the lid. Right? Your organization can go and only go as high as the lid of the leader. And so if you're hitting ceilings, if things are going wrong, that's your lid speaking. You got to find a way to raise your lid. And so I spent a lot of time there.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

A couple things I want to note on that. First of all, you said I go for a walk. So powerful, right? Like there's so much proof, and just walking around. There's a lot of people that do walking meetings because you actually, it's improving, you think more clearly. So the fact that you said, okay, what do I need to do to like recenter myself? It can be lots of things, but walking is very common. And I love that you said that you did that. Um, so important to be able to do that. And then the lid, let's talk about that because the leaders. So we as leaders, we work really hard to get into leadership. And then we work really hard to get to that next level of leadership. And when we get to a senior level leader, it is very common for them to say, check the box, I've done it all. And they don't right, and they don't continue to learn and grow and how you you focus on developing everyone else in what you did. But if you don't keep growing, then they hit that ceiling too. So I love that you brought up that law. And yeah, John C. Maxwell, I love all of his books too. Totally agree with you.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

You have a title, whether you have that title because you raised through the ranks or you gave yourself the title by owning the thing. But the title means nothing.

unknown 9:24

Right?

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Because John also talks in that book about the fact that if you're um, if you think you got people who are following you, and no one is, you're just taking a walk, getting back to the walk, right? Like people gotta be following you. And if they're not following you, you're just out there by yourself. And guess what? They won't follow you if they don't see that you continually grow because then they don't have anything to believe in you. They follow you for your service to them. And you see, when you grow, your growth is in service of them. It ain't about you. I'm not growing for me, so I can say, Oh, look at me, my chest is puffy. No, I grow so that I can serve them better.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Okay, so you looked inward, you recognized, I don't, I want to make sure this doesn't happen again. We can't have another week like this. Um, so now how did you handle this

Listening First Instead Of Playing Hero

SPEAKER_02 10:24

with her?

SPEAKER_00 10:24

It was wild. Um, and I say it was wild because the only, I mean, you can call it divine intervention. I don't I it wasn't me. I'll just tell you that. Because I sat there that Tuesday morning preparing for the meeting, and what I'm thinking through is the fact that I have read literally every book on delegation that Amazon had at the time. I know delegation, and this isn't working. All I know is I can't make Christine cry for another week. By the time she got to the meeting, I had nothing. I had no answers, I was no closer to a solution. I had nothing. I was just sitting there like and out of my mouth came these words. What was a challenge for you in the project this week? She answered. And I don't know if it was just because of the state that I was in where I was like, I can't make her cry. I didn't say anything, I just listened and I took notes to what she was saying about all of the challenges that she had. Now, for most of us as a leader, that's really hard because the moment the employee comes and says, I had this challenge, you want to jump in and do what? Fix it, be the superhero. Yeah. Okay, you want to be the superhero and say, I can fix it for you, or you dummy, why did you think of it that way? So I said nothing and I just took notes. And then when she was done, I said, Okay, this is a lot. You went do it a there was a lot here. But what were the steps that you went to through? I wanted you to articulate the steps that you that you went through. Now, so that's the A. Okay. And so this is the classic and then what exercise. So I did this, and then what? And then what? Okay, and again, she's going through, and I'm not saying anything. Okay, so I see I'm being very, very quiet, and I'm just taking notes. Now, at some point in time, in that process of taking the notes, of having the backdrop of her problems in my head, as I'm taking the notes on on her steps, I'm seeing very clearly well, no wonder you had a problem at this step because you went left when you should have gone up. But I'm not saying anything. Zip it. And we went through the steps, and I said, Okay, we're gonna study these steps and what you did in each one of these steps. Okay, so now if you're following along, challenge is a C, articulate is an A, study is an S. Okay? C-A-S. That's where we are so far. And so we're we're now studying these steps. And as we're studying these steps, I'm asking her, so what assumptions did you make when you started? What did you think was going to happen? What actually did happen, and what were you thinking about, and how did it how did it manifest for you as it was going through? There's something else amazing that happens in that moment, which I was not prepared for. And the amazing thing that happens is I started to see this is how I think through this process that I've been doing for 20 odd years that feels like second nature to me. And this is how she thinks through the same process. And I was able to see she's here, I'm here, there's a gap. There's a gap in the way we think. And now, as a leader, guess what? Our job is to help them close that gap, right? Normally we do what? We just come in and we tell everybody what to do. But in fact, the thing that we need to do is teach them how to think. I used to be the king of SOPs. They say there was a time when in our company we had almost 300 SOPs, standard operating procedures, and we had an SOP on how to create the SOP for the training class on how to teach SOPs.

SPEAKER_03 14:37

That's classic.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Okay. We had SOPs. The challenge is the SOPs told everyone exactly what to do. But when does thing when do things ever work that way? Then what do they have to do? They've got to think. You can't tell someone how to think. That does not work. If you have children, you know I'm telling the truth. It does not work. But here's what does work, and it this works with teenagers too. Get this asking questions. Questions where you're going to find the answers yourself and take the steps yourself. And you see what ends up happening, y'all, and this is this is the this is the key.

Co-Creation Turns Into Real Ownership

SPEAKER_00 15:18

If you forget everything else, remember this. It is an absolute lie that your employees, your team won't take as much ownership and care as you do. It's an absolute lie. Absolute and abject lie. Now, they may not care about the whole picture like you do, but they will care about their piece as much. And here's how you do it. It's in this step right here. Because when you ask those questions and they start taking that walk across the bridge and figuring it out on their own, when they get across on the other side of the bridge, they're going to look at you and they're going to throw their hands up in the air and they're going to say, I'm the smartest person alive. I figured it out. You didn't even know this, did you? And you're going to smile and you're going to say, You are super smart.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

Yeah, they'll stand proud for sure.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

People will support anything and everything that they co-create. And so that action of helping them across the bridge by asking questions and then letting them find the way across the bridge allows them to co-create. And the moment that they've co-created, they take ownership.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

I totally agree with you on asking the questions and getting them across the bridge, and then they take the co-creation. I think there's a pre-step to that, and that is to make it safe for them to be able to answer those questions. And so if I put myself in Christine's shoes in this in this story, right? The last week you made me cry. And, you know, once you get emotional, it's very hard to think logically. So I'm going into this meeting, probably preparing myself to not cry again, right? Because I've had eight weeks of this. I'm going into my ninth week. And so what did you do to help her feel safe to answer those questions when maybe she wasn't as confident on what the answers were because she didn't know if you were going to make her cry again or

Setting Safety With Expected Failure

SPEAKER_02 17:29

not?

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Yes. No, that's a really great question. And it's one that we cover in my book. And when we talk about the case methods, we've done C A S, there's the E still. When we talk about the case method, there there'd be there's part of it in the precursor of it, which is this when you delegate a task, a project for that very, very first time, and you're using the case method with your subordinate, with your employee, with your team member, as you delegate it, you tell them this and you have this conversation with them. I expect you to fail. Listen, what I just gave you is incomplete. I know it's incomplete, and I'm sorry that it's incomplete. It's the best that I can do, but it's incomplete. All the instructions aren't there, it's a bit of a mess. This is the outcome we want to get to. I don't expect that you're going to be able to do it. You're going to fail, and and on Friday, we're going to talk about it. We're going to get together and we're going to talk about how I screwed you up and caused you to fail. And it's all my fault. I'm telling you that in advance. And so this is how we deal with it moving forward. We had built enough relational capital in there that she understood how much I actually cared. Again, going back to the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership, right? People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. Right. And so she had instilled that in her throughout every single week, even in the midst of her tears of, hey, hey, listen, this is not what where I want you to be. You can get this. And I told her before, this was on me. I just don't know. I don't know how I'm communicating this wrong to you, but this is on me. I'm going to figure it out. I just don't know yet. But it's not your fault. You're very capable. I'm the incapable one.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Well, well, and let's get into that. Because you talk about, first of all, just say the case method, each word, so people can hear the whole thing together. So C means what? Let's go through that real quick. And then I want to get into delegation and this explain.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

C is for challenge. Okay, so sorry. Yeah, we're gonna have some fun. Come on now, right? Um, but C is for challenge. What challenge did you have doing this task, this project? A is to articulate the steps that you went through. Start at the beginning, and then what? And then what? And then what? And then what? And then what? Until you articulate through all of the steps that you went through. Okay, S, we're gonna choose four of those steps. Two you did right, two you did wrong, and we're gonna study those four and dive deep with them. Right? What were your assumptions? What did you think? What did that what actually happened? Why do you think that happened? How did you react to it? Etc. etc. etc. etc. Okay. Not looking for solutions necessarily there just yet. Right? And then E. E is the one that when things are awry, you don't typically get to right away. So the case method is designed to be cyclical. We did it on an every week basis in this project with Christine until we went through all of the steps and she started feeling really, really confident in the steps. And then we were able to bring in the E. And the E again was another accident. We had reached a point where we were about 40 minutes in and we were done. And I had 20 minutes left with her. And I'm like, okay, what am I gonna do for the next 20 minutes? And I just said, So tell me this. Now that we've done this a bunch, and this is starting to actually make good sense to you, and and you're having great success, what have you found easier than you expected? This is a gem of a question. Because in the answer to that gem, what you would often find is a hidden talent that they have that you don't know. And that is so vitally important to you because there's a funny little book that tells all of us entrepreneurs and and managers, if someone could do it 80% as well as you, you should delegate. It's a lie. Because if it's 80% done, you're not sleeping at night. How do we get to 110%? Well, you see, when you find that E that easier than expected, that hidden talent that they have, and now they're thinking in that vein, and they can bring in that hidden talent on top of the thinking. That, my friends, is how you get to 110%. That's when the process becomes better than what you could have done it yourself.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

To me, the way that you define delegation is very different than the traditional model, which I love. So most people, when they like a lot of my clients, but they have a hard time delegating. It's I'm having a hard time relinquishing control. Like I want to be able to know that this is going to be positive and show up great and whatever it is. And so they micromanage, for lack of a better word, which can lead to telling people what to do, which can lead to crying or frustration. And so the way that you're processing this is like, look, just teach them the way. It's not about relinquishing control necessarily. You're teaching them how to control it themselves so you can feel more comfortable in relinquishing that control. And so I'd love to hear with some of the clients that you work with, and when you teach them this model, is how how do people get there? Like when they're very holding on tight to you know what they want to control, how do you help them through this case model to release that?

Coach Yourself And Cast Clear Vision

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Um, I had the pleasure of coaching high-level football for about 15 years of my life. Um and when you coach, and especially when you're coaching at a high level, like in 15 years, we had won a total of 23 championships. This isn't just, oh, we played a game, did you win, did you lose? No, people expected us to, you know, and we won national titles, like people expected us to win. And there's a lot that goes into that. And when you have athletes and you're a coach, there comes a point in time when you realize that the moment that, in my case, because it's football, that young man steps inside the white lines, there is nothing I can do. Now I can lose my mind yelling on the sidelines, but I play football and I remember I never heard the coaches yelling. They were. At least they said they were, but we on the field, you can't hear it. You don't know that that's happening. And so being on the other side, being a coach and realizing they can't hear me. How do I ensure that what needs to get done out there gets done out there so we can win the game? And and it was actually my son's um quarterback coach that taught me this very, very valuable lesson that changed the way I delegate. So Maxwell changed the way I lead. This guy um changed the way I delegate. And I remember on my son's very first day of quarterback training. The quarterback coach said to him, You have to learn to coach yourself. Because the moment you're in the white lines, you are the coach. You coach yourself. When the play is over and it went well, you gotta figure out why and how you duplicate it. When the play sucked, you gotta figure out why and how to eliminate it. You have to coach yourself. I'm not gonna be on the field with you, is what he said to him. And I and I sat there and I remember I was in the stands and I'm listening to him teach my son this, and I'm like, holy crap. In business, we think we're in the game with them. But we're not. And if we were in their game, then we're not doing our job. And so they have to be able to coach themselves. They have to be able to figure out in this moment what is it, what is it that I need to do here in order to have success. And it starts with you, the leader, being able to clearly identify what it means to win. What is the vision of what we're doing? And this is the place that so many of us as leaders absolutely abjectly fail. Because we think vision is this big grandiose thing. But if I've got this pen and I need to move this pen from here to here, and I need somebody else to do it, I need to be able to cast vision for them so that they understand what needs to get done to move the pen from here to here. But you listening to me right now, I guarantee you're not casting vision.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

I love that. And uh what a great story. And just shows again how you are learning from other people, right? You continuously learn as a leader, and you don't have to be inside the four corporate walls to learn. You can learn in life with people in your personal life that you can apply to a professional. And it's just so important to always be open-minded like that. So I love that you

The Uncomfortable Truth About Leadership

SPEAKER_02 26:37

add that. And it makes me wonder, you know, when you talk about all these things, what do you believe is one uncomfortable truth that all leaders need to know right now?

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Yeah, I I believe this truth so much. I put it on the front of my book. Okay. It's not them, it's you. Yeah. Anything that's going on in your business that you want to point a finger and say, it's done. No, no, no, buddy. It's you. Baby, it's you. My dear, it's you.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

Yeah, very powerful. Very powerful. It's so hard to hold up that mirror, especially when you fought so hard to get into that senior level position and you feel like, okay, I got it. I made it. It can't be me anymore because I made it here. And it is so not true. You have to hold up that mirror. So I love that for sure. Great. Okay, so delegation, uh, the case framework. Um, I love all these things and how to think about the delegation. Um, anything else that you feel can be very powerful for our listeners to walk away with today for them just to consider the next time they have an interaction with one of their employees.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

The questions that you ask are going to make or break your leadership. Now, we may have been able to in 2024 get away with being that dictator leader. We may have been able to in 2024 get away with um leadership by you know just because we have a title. Your team is going to be craving a great leader who can create great community around great questions. And so if you can't ask great questions, you're gonna get left behind.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

Yeah, I love that. And what's really powerful about that, two things, I do a lot of work with uh generation workforce and working across the generations, and that is very loud and clear. I completely agree with all the data showing that that's what people want is they want to be part of a community, they want to be part of the collaboration. And when you think about leveraging AI, yes, we have to say it, we have it in every conversation, but a lot of people are leveraging AI to think for them. And so you can leverage it to help you ask those better questions, to get better at it. And so just being very weary and cautious of leveraging AI to improve your communication and how you can work with others rather than doing it for you all the time. There's times it makes sense to do it for you. But when you're developing your team, when you're delegating to your team, totally agree with you. You need it to help for you to do better. So, yeah, good thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Absolutely.

AI Support The Book And Where To Find It

SPEAKER_00 29:19

And I hope you don't mind me saying this too. Um, but for all of you, when you get my book, when you get the book, one of the bonuses that we give you with the book is something that we built is an AI tool called the Situational Coach. And what it does is you can come in and say, hey, here is my situation, here's what's going on, here are the players involved, and you can talk to it, and here's the outcome that I would like to have have happen. And it will actually come through and analyze and then give you, in order, the questions that you need to ask in order to get to the outcome you're trying to get to.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

And since we're talking about the book, why don't you just say the title of the book and where people can find it at?

SPEAKER_00 30:02

Absolutely. So it's the delegation trap. And you can find it at thedelegationtrap.com.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

All right, there's that sound.

Fun Questions And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_02 30:11

It's time for our fun questions. Are you ready for those questions? I'm ready. Okay, good. All right, if you had to choose, is it more important to leave a legacy or make an impact right now?

SPEAKER_00 30:26

I'm gonna take yes.

SPEAKER_03 30:29

I've never had anybody say that before to my questions, and I love it. So that's great. All right, all right.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

So at a party, are you hitting the dance floor or are you finding a quiet corner for a deep conversation with someone?

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Quiet corner, deep conversation.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

Yeah, I had a feeling with the way we were talking today. That's great. Yep, really getting to know people, staying curious, which is what you do every day. So I completely love it. Well, Ativa, thank you so much for your time today. Some great things for our listeners to walk away with, and they can follow up with the book to get more information. And if people want to get in touch with you, where can they find you?

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Delegationtrap.com.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

All right, that makes it easy.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

Awesome. And I can put it on LinkedIn as well.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

Yeah, thank you, Atiba. Thank you so much for your time today.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

If you enjoyed the show, please go to LeadershipMoments Podcast.com to subscribe to the podcast or on your favorite player, as well as follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

You can also send us a message on what you like and don't like or what guest you want us to have on the show.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

So until next time.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

This is Stacy Caster, and what does it challenge you won't change you.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

And I'm Tracy M. Palmer. Be the change you wish to see in the world.