Pregnancy Pals | Collab with Mamalogue Podcast

A bonus special guest episode chatting about second pregnancies and more - this is the one where Emma and Elliot join parenting podcast host Katie, from the Mamalogue Podcast, to have a relaxed catch-up and conversation. This is a slightly different episode than usual, but great to do this joint recording with Katie! Thanks so much for having us!

Check out the Mamalogue Podcast here:
Listen on Spotify

Watch along with our craft activity on YouTube:
www.youtube.com/@dontwakethebaby_podcast

Engage with us on Instagram
Facebook Group Chat Community
Discord Listeners Community 

Looking for something else? Want to know more about us or our faith?
Find everything explained and more links on our website:
www.kairosmovement.org.uk/dontwakethebaby/

Unwind on sleepless nights to a wholesome mix of parenting stories, quirky humour, and cosy crafting. We’re not here to provide answers but to share our experiences, explore how parenting has changed, and build an online community of parents for mutual support.

A fun, honest and unscripted conversation between Emma and Elliot on non-judgemental parenting and millennial-based topics, as we relax on an evening attempting an artistic or creative activity. 

We are a project in partnership with The Kairos Movement and supported by The Methodist Church, of which The Kairos Movement is a part.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 3:20 Mamalogue Conversation
• 56:00 Outro

Transcript

  So Emma, what's happening today? Today is a special guest episode, with fellow podcaster  Mamalogue. 

This episode is called Pregnancy Pals. 

Welcome to this special episode of Don't Wake the Baby. Come and unwind with us and have a break from all the stresses of parenting and chat about what we're up to in our lives. Join us in this imaginary scenario out in the park sat under a Big oak tree, let your toddler run off and play, have some laughs, and, uh, have a good old chit chat.

Good old chit chat. As usual, you're joining with, uh, me, Elliot, the one who's not pregnant. And me, Emma, the one who definitely is pregnant. Yep, yep. Um, I'm also the one who Uh, doesn't have many other parenting friends. I make all my friends pretty much online, I think. That's true.  Uh, whereas you, you like a good chit chat with other mums.

I do. I might, I'm not going to, oh, I'm so sociable. I have quite a few friends. Yeah. I'm not going to say I'm Mrs. Sociable though. But true. True. Yeah. Um, and today we're joined with, um, another mum who runs a parenting podcast as well. Um, and we've got to know her because we run similar parenting podcasts.

Um, I bumped into her online actually on social media and, um, yeah, we enjoy listening to each other's podcast.  I'm always very impressed because she just does it by herself. Yeah. I don't know if I could just talk like to like imaginary people. I know they're real people you're talking to but not in person.

Are they imaginary out there? Yeah. I never knew.  Hi imaginary people. If you were sat talking by yourself I'd be like, oh.  It's very different, yeah. It's Katie. From Cardiff in Wales, who runs the podcast Mamalogue, and we've done a collab on this episode. So we're, we're both releasing episodes, um, with this conversation where we chat about, um, how we're doing in our pregnancies.

Because this is the main thing is you're both at the moment, um, expecting second children.  Uh, anything you want to add, Emma?  I would just like to apologise in advance, um, that throughout these following podcast episodes, um, that are coming up, I notice that I, there's a lot of heavy breathing on my part. 

And it's, um, it's just because I'm so pregnant now.  That's just what seems to have happened. My lungs are finding it harder. To, you know, get all that air in them, because we're a bit squished. So, just, if you notice a lot of it, I can't help it. Yeah. I'm sorry. I try and edit out the heavy breathing, but you know, there's only so much I can do.

But it annoys you. Just know you hate pregnant people. That's all I can say. If you get annoyed by it, it's just discrimination. This is a slightly different episode. We don't have our usual format points. Um, it's just a relaxed chit chat with our friend Katie over on Mammalogue. I hope you enjoy it. It's a good time.

Listen through to the end and we'll come back and say goodbye at the end. But otherwise, let's get into it. 

So yeah, it's funny because this is the first time we're meeting, but I feel like I already know you. Do you get that when you listen to podcasts? Definitely. Our podcasts are quite different. I'm more of just a monologue and I just chat about my week and just get my thoughts out, whereas yours is a lot more, I would say, professional, organized, more thought out.

You have a theme every week. Thought out, I don't know whether it's more effective or, you know, like, you know, it's just different, isn't it? Yeah, and I'd say None of that is thanks to me, . Thanks. It. I find it so funny because you can tell Elliot's done all this work and I was like, what are we talking about today?

I have no idea.  Like it shows your like different personalities coming through and I just find it quite funny. . That's true. So we actually have quite a lot in common. But also a lot of stuff that's a bit different as well. So particularly when I was listening to your last podcast, I was like, oh no, I need to talk to them about that.

Like, because I mean, the main thing we have in common at the moment is that we're both expecting fucking children. How are you feeling, Emma? This has been the nice, well, we're in the third trimester now. I'm enjoying it a lot more.  Like, the first bit, very sick. The second bit was better, but I had quite bad back pain.

And I'm actually feeling okay at the minute.  Like, I'm tired  and achy, but I'm not at the size where I'm, because last time I was so horrendously big at the end, I just didn't. And do it because everything was like a chore and I think that's coming soon.  Like probably like in a couple of weeks, but right now I'm in quite a happy little stage where it's not too bad and none of my symptoms are horrendous.

Does this pregnancy feel different than the last time? Honestly, no, it seems very similar. Even though  this time around we've got low pap A, which is like a risk thing that the baby might be born small. But actually, I think last time. I had more symptoms that made me feel poorly than this time. So, at this third trimester stage, I think I'm slightly happier than I was the first time around.

I don't know about you, it feels almost hard to remember. Like, three What, over three and a half years ago? Yeah, I mean I can remember quite a lot of it, but I mainly remember my mood though, rather than symptoms. I'm like, oh yeah, I was really happy at this age, oh yeah, this part, yeah, I was like really depressed.

Because last time I just went, it went, seemed to go on for ages, and I think it's because it was lockdown, I hadn't seen anyone, and near the end I was just like, I just want the baby out of me, I'm sick of this, like I'm not enjoying it. Gone a lot quicker I think. I feel the same about It's Gone Quicker This Time, because I feel like the first time I was just like, God, I can't wait to meet my baby.

Now I'm like, actually, it's gone quicker. 

Get things organized, you're like, I don't feel like we've got any time anymore. Yeah, I have way less time. I don't know how I used to have so much time and still struggle to get things done. My pregnancy is mostly the same, but this time I'm just craving a lot of apples. Yes, I listened to your podcast when you were saying that, because I also, I've really got into apples and cucumbers.

Oh cucumbers,  yeah.  But only really recently. Only really recently though. Because I remember I was listening to that episode and at the time you weren't into apples. No.  Hmm, we influenced you.  I'm big into sugar. You are.  No, me too. I can't stop. Yeah. I just can't stop with it. Which I probably should. I'm just thinking about it because I've got my midwife appointment on Friday and the last pregnancy, you know, they check your wee, but I kind of didn't know that.

So I was like having a nice morning, like before I went to work, I was like enjoying just that lazy morning. So I had my breakfast and then I had like four cookies with a cup of tea and then she checked my wee and she was like, So sugary, she's like, I think you might have diabetes. And I was like, um,  so for Friday, I'm thinking maybe I shouldn't eat anything before then, because I was just so embarrassed because that's not, you know, most people would not do that.

That's not acceptable adult behavior.  It's hard, though, because I always say, like, when I'm pregnant, I don't necessarily want healthy things, especially at the start. I want, like, all the childhood snacks I used to like. And it's when they're like, it's very important to eat healthy, and I'm like, oh.  That's not what I fancy right now, though. 

Yeah, I, I'm a lot less healthy this time than first pregnancy. I just think the baby will be fine. Like, you know, I'm obviously not drinking alcohol, you know, doing anything like that. But I just think all the nutrients are going to go to the baby and it's me that will suffer. And I'm okay with that.

That's how I justify it. Feeling more relaxed.  Yeah, good. And I'm definitely more relaxed with like,  sleeping on my tummy and on my back. I was like, from like week seven last time, I was like, I'm going to train myself to sleep on my left side the entire pregnancy. And it was hell. I hated it! So now when I feel like a flabby bum, I'm on my front. 

No, I still sleep on my left side, but it's really hard. It's horrible! How do you normally sleep?  I normally sleep on my right side, so it's only a switch of side, but it is tricky. So how far along are you now? When are you due? You don't have to say exactly. Well, I'm 27 weeks, but because we're having an elective C section, it'll probably be,  39 weeks when I have my C section.

Yeah. Is that just to make sure there's no labor? It's make sure you don't get labor. And because of low PAPE, they normally don't let you go over 39 weeks anyway. So what is low PAPE?  It's very confusing.  You know when they do the blood tests? Yeah, at the start. So it comes back with a thing saying basically it could mean the percent is not working as well as it should be.

But it's normally tails off at the end of pregnancy. So. If you're gross is going to get slightly get stunted, it's normally like near the end of the third trimester. So that's why they don't like to leave the baby in too long, but. Okay. Okay. But  like, I'm part of a, there's a Facebook group and most people, they seem to have quite normal pregnancies.

Just some of them are a bit early. We thought we'd do a whole podcast episode on it at some point. Yeah. But I wanted to wait out till after we had the birth so I could talk about the whole experience going through. Yeah, good idea. So how did you tell Lily? It took us a while, didn't we? Cause lots of our friends told their children quite.

soon. But Lily's like a very talkative child and a blabber mouth. If we told her everyone would find out. Yeah. So I'm trying to, can you remember exactly when we told her? I don't know if I can remember when we told her. I think we kind of slowly kind of introduced the concept and initially  she didn't quite grasp it and then we'd like try again later and then she picked it up pretty quickly.

Yeah it was quite helpful because my sister in France She's just had her baby, but she was pregnant, and Lily knew she had a baby in her tummy. She got the misunderstanding because obviously, my sister's pregnant, and I'm pregnant.  She had a thing that all the women in our family had babies in their tummies.

And she was going, oh, so grandma's got a baby in her tummy. And I was like, no, grandma doesn't have a baby in her tummy. None of the other sisters have babies in their tummies. Just us. And she looked at me like, Well, that doesn't make any sense. Why is it just you two?  Yeah, that's a whole different conversation. 

She was like, so everybody's got it. I was like, no, that's not how that works. That did happen pretty quick. I think about a week later, she came to us and said, how, how's baby? How's baby and tummy?  So we had to deal with that pretty early on. Yeah. So what did you say? Uh, I tried to be scientific about it, so I said like, Abby has like,  a worm, and uh, it has to go in Mummy's tummy, and Mummy's got an egg.

But she kept saying, Mummy, you're not a chicken, you don't have an egg in your tummy. And I was like, no way. So now she's just come to the conclusion that Daddy put the baby in there. Yes. Which is pretty true.  We've discussed it a lot in the past, haven't we? Yeah. Deal with it. I think we've always veered away from using kind of metaphors or, I don't know, because there's a lot of problematic stuff around.

Well, like, even people say, oh, it's like a special hug. But I remember as a child, that really scared me then. That as a girl, if I hugged a boy, you could get pregnant because it's a special hug. Like, I couldn't very well because she's a girl. She's aware it's a thing that happens to girls. So she's very, like, interested.

Yeah. And we also didn't like the thing like, Oh, well, God gives you a baby. Because I'm like, well, some of our friends tried really hard for a baby and they couldn't have one. And that's not really a nice thing to be like, oh, he just decided they couldn't have one. So. Yeah. Yeah. We tried to veer around all those situations. 

To be like, what would be the most helpful thing for her to know? And in the end, I was just like, let's go with this. something scientific to be like, this has to happen for the baby to happen. That's difficult though, if you weren't expecting her to ask you that. Yeah, no, because I'd asked my sister and she has, this is one of my sisters in fact, she has two boys and they both have paid no attention to how the baby got in there.

Because I said, Oh, what did you tell your boy? She went, they've never asked.  I was like, they've never asked. Do you want to know? And I said, it's because they're boys. They're like, oh, that's not going to happen to me. So I don't really care.  Or just Lily's very inquisitive. Or just Lily's very inquisitive.

She was like, they've never, they've never bothered to ask me how it happened. I was like, oh. Well, that's not helpful because I was hoping you could go, oh, this is what I did, but yeah. It's how we deal with a lot of our parenting, isn't it? We just ask your sisters, what did they do? What did you do? And then we kind of borrow what we like.

But he's only, well, he's 19 months now and he'll be two in a month when the baby's born. So he just has no clue what's going on. Like I said, like. Where is the baby? And he points and then he'll give it a kiss and it's all quite theatrical, like he has no idea why he's doing that, what a baby is, like I don't think he understands, like he'll go to Claz's tummy and give it a kiss and say baby.

That's funny.  I don't think he'll even know  when the baby's born, I don't, I don't know at two in one month. I know what you mean, it'll just, I think it'll be something that just happens and that he'll just accept that's happened. I hope so. Rather than having to think about it.  Because any baby I hold, he just cries until I give it back.

Mmm. So Lily used to be like that. Lily used to be like that. She's only recently.  But you're right, probably it'll be different when it's, you know, because with Lily, because she can understand, you know, she's very excited. And understands that she's having a sister. And therefore will understand that this baby is different from other babies that we, we meet.

Yeah. It's her baby. So you found out for having a girl. Find out with Lily as well. We found out very late with Lily. We wanted to know, but.  She's like, she was so wiggly, Lily. They just, they had to do all the normal measurements and they couldn't do the gender. So then we had to have private scan, didn't we?

So I think that influenced our decision this time. Yeah. But I also wanted to give Lily like a clear, like, you're having a baby, it's a girl, you're gonna be a big sister, she'll be a little sister. To give her as much information as possible. Yeah. So we actually went for like a really early private blood test. 

And they, like, send it off to America.  Yeah, so from six weeks they can work out the gender. I mean, we did it much after that. Past the 12 week mark we went for a blood test. But, yeah, apparently from six weeks you can do a blood test, and they tell you what the gender is afterwards. And that's probably, that would be more accurate, because sometimes I've heard that people get it wrong.

It is more accurate, yeah. Oh, it's because you're not doing it based on sight, you're doing it on, like, DNA.  Were you quite happy it's two girls? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, Tommy was, I don't know, I would have been quite excited for a boy because then it would be different, but equally I feel like we know what we're doing with a girl.

Well, we say that. I think it's just a false sense of confidence that we're like, oh, it'll be very similar to the first child because they're the same gender, which probably won't be true, but it gives us, you know, We just have a lot of friends with, with little boys who are very lively and like running around a lot.

And Lily's just very chill, drawing and,  you know. We want another child like that. Yeah, yeah. Who's quite chill. And you're like, here, draw something. And they're like, okay, I'll sit and draw. That's a nice activity to do. We're, we're hopeful. But then. Who knows. They often say the second one's wild. Yeah. So.

We'll see if that's true. T is wild. Doesn't stop moving. He's very physical. He's recently started, like, pointing at things. If we make the book interactive, he'll read a book. He won't sit there and listen to me read or anything like that, no matter how animated I try and be.  He's not interested. He can do, like, painting and a bit of colouring.

I think he mainly just likes the independence of being sat at a little table.  And that's not for long. He just likes cars. He's just such a boy. And I really tried to like veer away from these stereotypes. Like  I like had him and was a mum. I was like, no, there's no such thing. Like we just put everyone in boxes and he's just the most boyest boy. 

I've ever come across, and I've really tried to like, not do that. We were like that. We were like, well we're not gonna dress her in pink, you know, we're gonna try and like that. I mean, you're a very I'm not a very girly girl at all.  And like, I'm not a very masculine man really, so we tried very hard really.

We never had gender stereotypes. No. But she's very much a girly girl. She likes her nails done. Gender stereotypes in you two.  Like if, if you're not that girly and you're not that masculine as you say, then she's not thinking, oh, I have to be like, whatever.  So at least if she's a girly girl, it's because that's her personality.

It is, yeah. And I say it was before she even watched TV. Like, it was kind of inbuilt that she liked certain shows. Yeah, totally. To me, before he was one, anything I gave him, if it was like a, you know, those stackable rings, he'd be like, Vroom, vroom, vroom, vroom. Yeah, yeah. Obsessed with cars. So we didn't find out.

His gender, and we're not finding out the next gender, so that's different from you guys. I, I was more interested this time, although I don't even need to know, it's another boy, I just know it.  Thinking about girls names, I, yeah, it's just, I know it's two boys. together, but that'll be nice. So there'll be hopefully like best buddies, crazy, which is great.

I think it's becoming like more real to us recently. I've definitely been like  imagining, you know, like having two kids and the different dynamic and thinking about how it would be strange. We'll look back on this time that we only had Lily and that we did stuff just with her. So yeah, it's definitely becoming a lot more. 

Yeah, that's true. And Lily's very, like, she's been asking me questions, what colour the baby's hair is.  And she also got very confused at one point, because most of her cousins are biracial, so she thought our baby would be brown. 

And she'd get really like, oh, so we'll have a brown baby. And I'm like, n n no.  And she was like, oh, why? And Mummy and Daddy aren't brown, so we can't have a brown baby. She's been like this for a long time. She has. She loves like, mixed race characters on TV. She does, yeah. She has like a black baby that's her favourite baby.

Four, four cousins, hasn't she, that are mixed race? That are mixed race. Well no, five now, because Ali has just been born. Oh, of course, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, three is a mahal for me. Moroccan and two of them are half Sudanese, like, to her that's just most of the babies we know are brown.  Did you get any comments about what, like, when you told people you were pregnant or that you're expecting another child?

Like, did people ask whether it was planned or did you get any weird comments? I don't think so. No, I think, I think because most people We know and family and stuff knew we wanted another one, like we'd been quite open that we were probably going to have a second child. Yeah, we just didn't tell them when we were trying.

Yeah, I mean we had, yeah, we had to be  We've got very nosy family, particularly our mums,  who we just didn't want the stress of them knowing we were trying mum's quite, because we all get pregnant quickly,  she assumes it's going to happen straight away if you say you're trying. So we've never told her, because I feel like that'd be a lot of pressure every time she saw you, she'd be looking at you like,  They look pregnant.

Yeah. Once you, once we were pregnant, I think everyone would just like, okay, cool. Yep. I think in your family, for your listeners that don't know, Emma's a, an identical quadruplet  at any one time. There's, that seems to be always someone who's pregnant.  Cause we're all of a similar age and we've all started having children. 

So I had a question about the quadruplet  thing. So do people have trouble? Telling you apart when you were little and did that bother you? They did have trouble telling us apart. It didn't bother me, but like I often say this, I think When you grow up with it, it just seems very normal.  I used to get annoyed if, like, mum would say they instead of whoever did it.

So, like, if they went, oh, they did this, I'd be like, well, actually, I didn't do that.  Yeah. Like, that was one of my other sisters. And so after that, she did apologize and would start, like, causing directly who had done something. To you, it's very obvious that you look different. Whereas I can even now, some, some people, you know, Think you all look identical and  can't tell you apart.

And when we go on our girls weekends, people do stop and ask, Yeah. Are you all sisters? And you're like, yeah.  Sometimes a bit exasperating, isn't it? Yeah. Well, me and my sister Kirsty often just lie, because she's the one who lives closest to me. And they'll often say, are you twins? And we just go, yeah. 

Because I thought I was thinking, I'm not going to meet them again. There's no point me going through, Oh, actually I'm a quadruplet.  Because people often look amazed at you and then you have to kind of have a big conversation. So often it's like, Oh, you're twins. Me and Kirstie used to go, yeah, we are.  And we're like, we'll just see.

We'll stop the conversation there so we don't have to answer real questions. Two of my close friends have twin boys and I'm really bad at telling them apart. One set, one of them's got like a strawberry spot like just on the tip of his nose but that's getting smaller and smaller as he's older.  Like looking right up his nose to see something to tell them apart and then the others I literally, they're next door to us and I can, I always get it wrong.

I don't know how. 100 percent of the time I can get it wrong  and it's only recently they've had a haircut and one of them's got more of a fringe so I'm like right it's you but I do feel pretty guilty because I think oh You know, their, their parents know the part, there must be differences, but they're always running round and I, maybe if they were sat down and I could really look at them, yeah, it's, it's difficult and I don't want to, you know, cause them trauma. 

It's hard when they're little, isn't it? Yeah. It's a fun game in your family, isn't it? A lot of the men folk, you give us pictures when you're little and get us to test, see if we can work out who's who. Yeah, one of us finds a picture. We get it wrong a lot of Spot your wife. Which one am I? Yeah. But you all look so different as kids.

Yeah, yeah. To how you look now. Well, no, see, I don't think we do. And I can still see us, like, as us, so to me it's still really obvious  who's who. It's only when we're babies it's slightly harder, but normally I'm like, oh well that's such like a, I don't know, a curse your Laura expression. I know that's them.

Mentioned about comments when getting pregnant, was there an experience you'd had that? Oh yeah, tons. 

So many people would be like, was it planned?  That is so weird because you're like directly asking me about my sex life.  I'm like, are you just banging it out without protection all the time to try and get pregnant?  Have a couple of glasses of wine and just forget the condom. Like what? Ask her that. It's not even.

It's not even. It was really people I knew so much. Some people I knew and then some of them were like my patients.  So I'm like a patient facing Roland, and I'm like, this is too much, this is really crossing the boundary. What, do you want me to say what's the right answer? Yeah, but I'm also like, it doesn't really matter at the end of the day if it's planned or not, does it?

Like, what, why would you want to know? Yeah, that is really important, yeah. What are you gaining from that information?  Yeah. When I saw someone in the park, I actually, the last time I saw them, Well, I did pregnancy yoga with her the first time  and then I saw her once afterwards with a newborn and then second time was a few days ago and she had a baby strapped to her chest as well as like a toddler.

So I was like, wow, that's, you know, congratulations. And she told me like she got pregnant when she was 10 months and I was like, wow. But when, not when she was 10 months, when the first baby was 10 months. Yeah, I was like, oh, that's quick. And I thought, well, maybe I shouldn't have said that. That was quite invasive.

It just popped out of my mouth. And she was like, oh yeah, everyone keeps asking me if it was planned. And I was like, oh my God, people are the worst.  Honestly the worst, but maybe that was because it was. Yeah, the one thing we did have was you have withdrawn from one of your volunteer roles in the church.

Yeah. And announced that. We had a, like, a load of church people come to us and ask like, Is there a reason why Emma's stepping back? Is she pregnant? And we were like, yeah, she's pregnant. Yeah, and I was like, I didn't realize stepping back from a role would be so obvious that then I was pregnant.  Yeah, I was worried.

The main thing I was worried about is people would know I wasn't drinking. Because I don't drink a lot since Tia's been born. But I would, if anyone's having like a glass of wine, I'll have one or two. And I don't think I ever say no. But then I was saying no. And I thought people are gonna start catching on.

And actually Kaz's parents did. But they only told me after I did. Yeah, which I think it's nice to be able to tell people yourself, isn't it? It's not like I don't want someone to guess. No, that's true. I mean, my sisters normally know because I'm a terrible liar. So I just try and avoid talking to people for so long.

Like I'll message them, but I won't talk to them in person. And then they know because I haven't talked to them in person. So I'm probably pregnant. Good thought. Why aren't you talking to us? That seems odd. Why are you avoiding us? I'm like, I'm just really busy. Yeah. But did you try not to tell people until you're 12 weeks?

We tried to tell, not tell people was for as long as possible, really, which turned out to be about 13, 14 weeks, I think. Wow. That's true. I mean, it was hard though, because  The nursery definitely suspected because Lily was pretending to throw up all the time.  Like, so she'd go around going, I feel sick.  I mean, we have the advantage that, for a lot of things actually, but because we both work from home, it means we don't, you're not like regularly interacting with colleagues or anything. 

it is a bit easier to hide stuff like that. It's true. So I managed two weeks. We found out when I was like five or six, you know, I think I was five weeks pregnant. And then I was like, right, I'm not telling them for ages. I'm just going to enjoy this myself. And then two weeks later, I was like, okay.  Are you okay to talk about birth?

Yeah, yeah.  The same, same, but different thing that I often find when I'm listening to your podcast is that we both had C sections the first time, but I think yours ended up being an emergency, right? Yes, yeah, mine was an emergency one, yeah. And then you, you having like an elective? Yeah. Like the first meeting I had with my WIDBOT, they went, so have you thought about birth?

And I went, yes, I want a C section. They were like, great, you're very, like, certain. I was like, yes.  I was like, I have no doubts that I don't want to go through what I went through last time. And I was just like, a C section, please. But they were very nice. They were like, that's fine. It's like really good.

You know what you want. I was like, okay, right. I thought I was going to have to fight for that and be like, these are why I want a C section. But no, they just accepted it. So I'm the opposite. I technically, I did have the elective C section. , but it wasn't like elective. 'cause I wanted it, it was 'cause tea was brief.

Yeah. I could necessary. Yeah. Yeah. I kind of felt like I was given three options, but totally steered to have this c c-section. Um, so this time I feel like I really, I've just really want a vaginal birth. Really wanna like, have that experience and like, have contractions and feel myself go into labor and like meet the baby that way.

So I got a doula. I think I saw you post about this on Instagram. Yeah. Because we, I mean we discussed, well we talked about it ages ago, because to me it was like a very American thing. Like I didn't know we had them over here. Yeah. There's not many, like there wasn't many for me to choose from in this area.

Luckily she lives around the corner. And I really liked her. So that was lucky. And I always kind of thought of them as being really hippie. I didn't think it was for me the first time, so I didn't even consider it. And then this time, I feel like there's times where I would want someone in the room who knows exactly what I want to be able to advocate for me. 

Feels confident enough to do that. Yeah, I felt really good with her and I felt like I'll be, I'll feel safer with her and she'll also be with me until I go to the hospital. It's not just help when you get to the hospital. Yes, that's true, yeah. I feel really good about it, but do you know anyone who's who's had one or did you consider it?

No, I know a lot of people did hypnobirthing which I think is like on a similar line of having someone kind of talk them through how do you do breathing and I think that could be really helpful. But no, I don't think we know anyone. Everybody on my Instagram post was like no we've never had one but two people messaged me to say if they were having future children, which they're not,  they would consider it this time.

I think if I was going, like, down a natural birth route, I would consider having somebody.  Because I know people say it's hippy dippy, but I kind of like hippy dippy to a certain extent. Yeah, I like hippy dippy. I got quite interested,  so I'm like, yeah, I think I'd give that a go, see what they were like.

Yeah, I think it's got negative connotations, like even saying hippy, because I think Hippie, to me, is like, just natural and letting your body, like, do what, like, I don't know. It's just hippie has that, like, negative, like, it's almost like, making fun of it. So much stuff has kind of come back into fashion, hasn't it?

That's true, yeah. I feel like a lot of our parenting probably falls into similar categories around  Montessorian parenting and Yeah. All sorts of other things that maybe to some people have negative connotations. Yeah, and I think that's true. But actually are kind of becoming quite fashionable. I think definitely with the newest, newest generation coming through, it's more common practice.

But even with like people I know with children that are maybe like around ten, it's sort of still made fun of a little bit. Like  parental parenting. Maybe that's because they've got older kids and they're like, it doesn't work. But  I am still.  I'm still trying to use it. Yeah, we try. Yeah. We've been quite open.

We do put her in time out, but we said that's more for our sanity. Just a misunderstanding of what gentle parenting is, isn't it? Like You can do it. It's a spectrum of different stuff letting them. It's not no discipline. It's just yeah  Yeah, you just try and do things with love rather than like just getting angry at them.

Yeah, and there's no one size fits all  Like you can't do things exactly the same as another family. Like what works for Lily. I think Lily and Tea are quite different I read somewhere the other day that  He's really physical and he's like a head banger so if he gets upset or I tell him you can't have that  because like you're trying to pick up a knife, you know,  that sort of thing,  uh, he will bang his head against anything he can find like the floor or a cupboard or if he's got anything in his hand he'll whack himself or  hit himself with his hand.

I read if he's physical like that you have to immediately stop him from doing that. do like hurting himself and then just try and offer cuddles and just until he calms down so he will respond to the physical touch whereas if lily's quite like you know she likes to sit in color and he can handle being on her own maybe timeout would would suit her better but it's interesting because my sister's sons were exactly the same as tea like they would literally just bang their heads on the floor and things.

I remember the first time I saw it because Lily never did that. I was like, what are they doing? They were just like, no, no, they just do that. Just, I just have to stop them.  I was like, oh, okay. I was like, I, I, cause I hadn't seen that, but once you've seen it a few times, you realize it's just like normal for that child.

That's how they react. But because Lily, I don't know if I did that. She was more like a golf and soccer. Yes. Yeah, like she's more like, responds more to like emotional stimulation stuff, doesn't she? Yeah, definitely. Like we watched present programs, she's not scared by like something that's scary, but she finds it very emotive if the character is scared. 

So like, yeah. When Piglet goes in the dark woods, she's worried about Piglet.  Oh, that is so cute. I know, but it's one of those things that we have to, a lot of things we watch, I'm like, oh, we might have to skip this bit because this is quite sad. And she's going to find that really upsetting. Whereas like, some of my sister's kids, she's like, they don't care.

Again, maybe it's like a girl boy thing. It might be. But then some boys are quite emotional. Yeah, definitely. But it could be. I think at the beginning, this is probably not like 100 percent of the time, but I think girls are more advanced.  Yeah, they are, yeah.  I don't think he understands, like, when I compare him to, not that I do that, but like, you know, his girlfriends, yeah, they're a lot more advanced in their speech and their communication and what they understand and he, he's just not there, so I suppose, but he understands the physical.

Stuff. That's all he knows, really. Yeah. No, I think that's quite typical, because most of her cousins are boys. And her speech has been quite a lot quicker than most of their speech was. And we've got some local friends, don't we, with boys who, like, get a bit worried about some of that? Yeah, they do. You know, and we have to reassure them.

And they always talk to me and I'm like, but it's different. Like, they'll catch up. It's just boys, like, they take longer with some things. Especially, like, with potty training. Yeah. The girls, we know, potty train quite quickly and most of the boys take a bit longer. And yet Lily with like a lot of her motor skills, like she still can't jump very well.

Or like, you know, there's a lot of stuff like that. She's not an athlete by any means. When they did that like What was it? Was it her one year old or two year old? It must have been when she was two. I think it's one and a half, they come Oh yeah. And they're asking, could she jump? And we were like, oh no, not really.

I'm like, she can do like, even now she can Cause you have to jump like off to  And I was like, she does a funny skip. I mean,  not a jump person. She can do it now, but I mean, she's She's not coordinated. No. Like, definitely in that line of things.  Yeah. I'm not.  No. Well, I said this to Elliot, if she takes after me, she'll never be coordinated.

So Anyway, yeah, the moral being just never compare your kids to other people. Well, they just have such different strengths. Like, just the way it is. Yeah, and they'll just develop at different times, so who cares. So you made me think, when I listened to the last episode, about the introductions to the new baby.

It just never entered my head before. Like, when T was born, it was actually after a little while, I kind of forgot to tell anyone. Because I was just in this bubble and throwing up from the drugs and blah, blah, blah. Yeah, yeah. Kaz had like a few messages, like is everything okay and la, la, la. And then he, he did message round.

But I think this time, I'm thinking after listening to you, that I'm just not, I'm maybe going to send a text saying like, everything's fine, you have a baby. Yeah, we're all okay, yeah. But not say anything about the sex, or the name, or a picture, and just let T be the first one. Not that he'll even get it, but I feel like for me that might be nicer. 

Yeah. And also the benefit of, doing that that might piss off your family is that you can't be pissed off with someone who's just given birth. Well, that's true. Yeah. It's a good point. Even if you aren't, nobody cares. Yeah. Well, yeah, we can let you know if we do it first. It's not something we'd really thought about.

No, until a few of our like listeners, people that listen were, were kind of feeding in and saying that's what they'd done. And we were like, Oh,  That's interesting. It's not something any of your family have done, either, by any stretch, so it will be quite a shock, I think, to decide to do that.  We've always done it with names though, haven't we?

Because I've always been like, both our families are very opinionated. So I'm like, well, you're just not going to know the name till they're born. Because at that point they've been born.  What are you going to do about it? Like, you can't be angry. It's the baby's name. Whereas some of your family are open.

Well, in fact, most of your family are open about names from very early on. From very early on. Whereas I was like, well, you You're just not going to know because I don't want your opinion particularly. Do you decide names in advance or do you like wait until the baby's born or how do you approach names?

No, we, so we had two names lined up for if it was a boy or a girl. So when it was bought, not it. 

We were like, oh, so this is his name, cool. And then we just stuck with it. But this time, I feel like we've barely thought about names. I feel like the whole pregnancy last time, we were just thinking of names. Everything was quite blissful and like, I don't know, calm and like full of love. And now I'm like, oh, we haven't thought of a name.

Should we do that? So it feels completely different this time. So I hope, I do feel a bit guilty. I don't give this baby any attention. No, I feel like that sometimes because I often feel like, Weirdly, I'd be like, oh, she's moved. Oh, this has happened. Now I'm like, eh, it's moving. It's like, it's like a blaze.

And I'm like, I feel super more excited, but it's because you've done it before. You're like, yeah, this happens. Yeah, and you've already got like your own baby right in front of you. I know Lily's not really a baby anymore, but I still call him that. And they need your attention, so it's, this one doesn't actually need that much attention yet, but I do feel bad because they're going to have a completely different experience with T, who's just been worshipped since, you know, like, You know, it's the moment we found out about her, Lily.

It's like, Lily, I was just like, it's gonna be a big, big shock to your system because  the minute you're like, the centre of the world.  Yeah. So we've been really trying, haven't we, to be like, but we've done well. She's very good at sharing at the minute. Which I really enforced quite early on, but I do wonder if it'll be different when it's your sister you're sharing with and not other people. 

Hopefully. He is terrible at sharing with anybody. I think that's normal for that age though, because it's very hard to understand. It is.  And he's quite, like, possessive with his things, which is normal because he's the only one that has them. But it's, it is embarrassing because he does hit, so he doesn't just hit himself, he will hit others.

And particularly go for the face, like he's, he abs at the face.  Whether, like, he's at the park. and they want to get on the same thing as him and it is really, it is embarrassing. So, you mentioned on your episode that you, it would be fun to get like a psychologist on. Well, I met a psychiatrist the other day.

She just came in for an eye test.  And so when I asked her what she did, I was like, right, I need a couple of minutes of your time.  What do I do about him, like hitting kids in the face? And she actually gave me a really good point. She said,  Don't tell him, you're naughty, don't hit people, gonna internalise, I'm naughty, that's what I do, I hit people and I'm a naughty boy, whatever, I'll just be doing that.

But if you say, you're such a kind boy, kind boys share, kind boys share. Wait their turn, and then you're actually giving him a way to act, not just telling him not to do something. And I thought that actually makes so much sense. We do, like, utili I don't know if this is good parenting or not, but we utilize, like, her role models quite a lot.

So, things like Bluey and Elsa from Frozen. She,  like, idolizes them. We go like, now would Bluey do that? You know? Yeah. That's a good idea. No, I wanna be like Bluey. Yeah. Or we use, like example episodes of when Bluey's so good. So like we were playing snakes and ladders and she kept trying to cheat and I was like Well, you know when Coco tries to make the rules in Bluey easier and I said and Bluey doesn't like that does it because it's not really fair and she thought about it and  You're not like Coco.

You're more like Bluey and she went. Oh  And she did, I mean, she still really wanted to cheat, but she played much more of the rules than she did before, so it semi worked of being like, You remember this episode we've watched? And what did we learn from that episode?  Yeah, no, I think Bluey is great parenting, so it's a good idea, I might start doing that. 

I think especially now she can like, remember the episodes and resonates with what the lesson is, it's a lot easier to go like, although now she, every time she eats an ice cream she's like, it's going to melt like blueies! And I'm like, yes! Maybe you should like, eat it really quickly then!  So my issue is I don't understand these shows because we only show it to him in Polish, so uh, I don't really know what's going on, so he couldn't be learning anything. 

You're like, I don't know what the message of this is really. The message is, the good thing is, it's like short episodes of Bluey, so I feel like I understand a little bit more each time, but I probably understand as much as he does, you know. Yeah, I always find it interesting because you, like, are trying to do two languages.

Oh, are you doing three because you use Welsh as well? Oh, no, we don't do Welsh. I mean, he will when he goes to school, but we don't know any Welsh.  Because my sister in France, they do, like, French and English. And then they're starting to do Arabic, obviously, because her husband's Moroccan. And I'm like, oh, I'm always amazed how well  And we've always discussed, because you're a linguist, that we want to do another language.

So my job's that I'm a translator. But we haven't actually really started that yet. We haven't. I did have a French book I used to read to her. And then I was too worried she was getting too confused.  So I just left it. But I need to start doing that again. Especially because, like, her cousins do speak French.

And I'm always, because I know, like, how hard I, I,  I had to work to learn languages. That's why I'm so keen on learning them younger. Cause the younger you learn it, the easier it will be. So that's, yeah, that's something on my list. I'm like, I'm gonna have to start doing that with her. Especially if Isak's not going to speak English. 

Somebody's going to have to learn some French. Well, that's going to be the easiest way. Just stick her with Isak for a couple of weeks. Yeah.  This is why, like, he's called Baba, because in Arabic that's like daddy, and when she first started learning to speak, they'd come round for the holidays, they were calling their dad Baba, so she was like, that's what you call,  that's why you're Baba now, so she does pick it up quickly when you're around them, like whatever they're saying.

Oh, she'll be fine, yeah. I've just got to stay one step ahead. You do. He said he's got to have like private lessons with me just so he's ahead of Lily.  Yeah, yeah, that's how I feel. I think he's going to take over me soon. I also wanted to talk to you because you, you two are big on the equal parenting and you try really hard for that.

So I wanted that and then had a baby and then felt I'd been sold a myth.  I, I didn't feel  it was possible for the first year anyway. I felt like it was me  and I was supported but I was the I  think it's hard because even now Lily has a preference. So if it was Lily's preference, I would do everything all the time.

Yeah, I think in some ways Yeah, we are a bit strange, aren't we?  Just in general,  but in this as well. Yeah, in some ways I think it was almost easier in that first year to split the parent because, you know She didn't have an opinion as much. Yes.  Decide for herself, whereas now she will want to do stuff with you.

Yeah, if it's her choice, mummy will do bedtime and mummy will get everything from the kitchen. I think particularly at the moment as well, she's aware. I know the baby's coming, so she's become a lot more, she's always, let's put it this way, she's always been mummy orientated. People kept being like, it's a phase!

The dad will become the favourite at some point, and I was like, that has never happened. Maybe it will happen. Maybe it will happen when the new baby comes. But people kept saying, oh like, enjoy this because it won't be forever, and I was like, it has been forever. But I don't know whether, whether it's to do with, Me being at home and being able to step up, or whether it's because, you know, we've also made decisions that enable that to happen.

Which maybe are less popular in terms of,  we opted to mix feed. Yeah, so that he could do some of the feeding. Which I guess is maybe I know it's not recommended, because people like to, like, breastfeed and it's maybe better for them. But I'm like, as long as she's having some of my breast milk, and she's having a lot of milk, that's fine.

Yeah, totally. Okay. Totally. And even if you chose not to breastfeed, like those babies are  great too, like there's Well, I always think that. I'm like, when people grow up, you don't go around going, oh, you can tell they were breastfed as a child. Yeah, exactly. Because I'm like, everybody's the same. It doesn't really make a difference.

It seems like such a big deal when you become a new parent. Yeah. But then nobody cares when you're an adult. My friend Milk never came in, so she didn't have a choice. And I think she struggled with that a little bit. And But her baby's gorgeous and healthy. I struggled cause my, I didn't have a lot of milk and I struggled, like, I, I'd never been one who really like, not in a mean way, I never wanted to be like, I want to do all the feeding by myself because I'm very realistic in that I'm like, I don't want to be up all night by myself.

That doesn't seem nice. But we struggled with breastfeeding. So in the end I just like expressed milk, put it in a bottle and then other times she'd just a formula.  What would be interesting is it, it could be quite different for us this time because. You've got a longer maternity leave. Yes, yeah. did impact it as well.

It did, yeah. The first time round you had very short maternity leave, and so actually, rather than it feeling unbalanced because I was at work and you, we were both working full time. Yeah. So it felt fair to split everything because the pressure was on both of us. Yes, that's true. Whereas I've got a longer time this time, so.

It'll be interesting, you know, whether it feels like because you're not working you Yeah. Yeah. be doing  stuff. And I think I'll feel more like, oh well I have all this time off.  I should like, which might feel like pressure, but. But I also feel like if I'm more successful at breastfeeding, I'll probably try and do more of that.

Do you know what I mean? So that might change the balance again. I think a lot of it's to do with me and I don't like to be the only person doing everything. And that's great. I think if you're self aware and you know those things and it makes you happier then that ultimately makes you  better all around anyway.

Better parent, better like Are you married? Like, yeah.  And so, it's good to be self aware, not to have those, like, influences from outside, like. Yeah. Telling you what you should do. I think my community midwife said this. She says, she was like, It's great that you're really like, you know yourself very well.

And I was like, yeah. And I said, I think I know my weaknesses and my strengths, so I'm able to go, yes, that wouldn't work for me, or that would work for me. And I also grew up, you know, with my, well, definitely older, you know, when I was in my teens, my mum was the main earner and my dad did all the, like, household chores and the cooking and the cleaning.

So that's never felt unusual to me, that that's what a man would do in the household. I loved breastfeeding. I found expressing, like, is that the word?  Yeah, that's what I would do. Pumping, pumping is what I normally say. That's why it sounds weird in my brain. So I found that just annoying. I felt like, Oh, I'm doing this  and I still need to feed him.

Like, I didn't really know why I was doing it. And then like, it was,  I don't know, like,  I don't know. I just felt like it was all a lot of effort and then to sterilize it. And I'd rather just  get him on the bed, calmed him down and I enjoyed it. And yeah, you're sometimes like Kaz would be up with me and I'd lean on him for like that sort of support.

So he did definitely support me loads, but it was, it was on me. Yeah. And I also think the Matt leave thing. So what you said about you both being home, because he wasn't home, but used to looking after him on my own. And then even when I, um. Went back to work, it was difficult to get back in the swing of things, like, not me doing everything. 

So we had to have a bit of a chat about that, because I was like, I'm too overwhelmed, like, I've gone back to work, and I'm, like, sorting out the dinner, I'm, like, packing his bag in the morning, and then if I forgot something, I'd feel awful, and I was like, this is just too much for me to cope with. And now it does feel more equal, except that he just wants me all the time.

And the only way I can get out of those things, like putting him to bed or whatever, is by physically leaving. So if I leave and he doesn't know I've gone, he'll settle for Kaz, but if I'm in the house, he'll cry until I can reach him. Yeah. So there's that.  But, but then I wouldn't change it. Like, I breastfed until he was 17 months and I only stopped because I was pregnant.

And I know, and, and then he started steeping through and it was the best thing ever. And my mum was like, oh, see, see, maybe you should have stopped earlier.  And I know full well with the next baby, if I can breastfeed and I enjoy it just the same, I'm going to keep breastfeeding until like, I don't even know when.

Maybe, yeah, that's me being self aware maybe, I don't know. I'd just say it depends what like, like, because my sister in France, she's been very successful at breastfeeding and she does really enjoy it. Whereas I think I was just very unsuccessful,  I was like. Well, I mean, yeah, like Lily just wouldn't latch, would she?

Yeah. Pumping was really the only option if we wanted her to have breast milk, so, like, we were kind of forced into it rather than it being a But this time around I'm trying not to put pressure on myself, so I'm like  If this one is very good at breastfeeding, great. If it's not, it's not. Like, there's not something you know how, how to do it the other way.

I feel like successful, unsuccessful makes it sound like it's your fault and it's not, like, be proud of yourself. Seeing, like, it all in the freezer, I was like, I did that! We all approved the milk! That was me! If you're interested, are you gonna do EC with the new baby? Well, basically, as early as is manageable, I think.

Yeah.  So, it'll probably As soon as we feel ready, we'll try and give it a go. So, it depends partly, like, how quickly I recover from my C section. Last time it was a very quick recovery. I think it was about three months before I felt pre normal. Well, yeah. That was quite a bit quicker than that. That's Yeah, that's true.

That's when you got fully back to Yeah. That's when I was, like, running about. Yeah, it was pretty quick last time. I'm just worried this time it won't be as quick.  And then I'll be like Going, oh, last time I could do all fours at this stage. So we'll see, because just holding on the potty and stuff might be harder.

I reckon we might start from two months, maybe two months. Yeah, I think, see how we do. But it's because we've been so successful, given us a false sense of confidence, so we're like, it'll work fine and we can do it. Yeah, I think because we saw the Benefits of managing to get her potty trained so  early, given us a lot of motivation to, to really try with the next one.

Yeah. I'm always amazed by hearing about Lily's, how good she was so early. Cause I like, he, he had all these stories and was like, it's possible. I'm going to do it. And like, he's 19 months now. And I, I got this two weeks off while the childminders on holiday. So I'm just like ditching nappies. They're gone.

Yeah. Except when he's sleeping at night, but mostly he's dry when he wakes up.  And we've had, there was like a week where he had like three accidents and I was like, Oh my god, we've nailed it. He's great.  And then the last few days, honestly, it was every single week he did not go in and I was like, What is going on?

Like,  And then yesterday he was perfect. And we were out all day at the farm, and I was, I did have to bribe him though, the last time before we got into the car, he just didn't want to go on there, and I knew he needed a wee, so I gave him a chocolate ice cream, and he sat on there.  I think sometimes you have to.

Even now, Lily, sometimes, you have to persuade her. It's lucky, she's like, once again, because she can talk now, it's easier to persuade.  Sometimes now I'm like, look, I know you don't need to go, but we're gonna be, I don't know, in a car for an hour. So, like, any point you need in that hour, we're going to have to stop and that's going to be difficult.

So, you still have to somehow kind of go, I know you don't feel like you need to go right now, but for practical reasons, it'd be really good. An opposite problem. So rather than having accidents, we've got the problem where she just won't go to work. to the toilet. She'll just hold it for ages. She'll just hold it forever.

And we're like, you must need to go. We're like, please, it's been like 14 hours, please go to the toilet. You must need to go. No way! It wouldn't be that long, would it? 14 hours. Yeah, yeah, it can be. Yeah, because sometimes she'll go just before bedtime, like she'll hold it all through the night and you'll get to like 11 o'clock the following morning.

And you'll be sat there thinking like, when did she last go to the toilet? It was like last night. But I was talking to my sister Becky and her boy is exactly the same. He's about Is he four months older than Lily? And she was like, he's the same, he just won't So maybe it's a phase, but she says that they have fights Where she's like, you need to go, like this is getting unhealthy And he's like, nope, don't need it She's like, you definitely do  We did have, but she's got better at doing it Yeah, and it's a nicer problem to have than, you know, having accidents all the time and everything But I mean, you've still got to remember that  At, you know, the age T is, it's still like way ahead of where a lot of toddlers are with potty training.

Yeah, and I think the main thing is that he doesn't generally poo in anything he's wearing. He will tell me about that. And I think that's the main thing. Wees.  I mean, I do. care, but he's got these little toweled pants, so it doesn't really make any mess, and I mean, he is bare bum in the house, and that sometimes does make a mess, but I just don't care.

I'm quite disgusting, generally. No, I think, I think you have to be as a parent. I'm quite like that. I'm like, it's just wee. Like, it's fine. It's just wee, and he's got gorgeous toddler wee. It's really clear. Yeah. It's not like my dehydrated.  Your idea of hygiene just goes down a lot. We were invited to my mum's barbecue the other day.

He came up to me, because he was playing around us, because he didn't want to sit anymore, and he came up to me and he tapped me and he went poo poo, put his trousers down, put them in the potty, and he pooed, and I was like, oh my gosh, well done, because there's so many distractions, and he still told me, And then, like, the next day I said to my mum, like, how good was that?

And she was like, yeah, I think it might have been better if you didn't do it right by the table everyone was eating. And I was like, yeah. Because I think I'd have a problem with that either. But luckily, because most of my family have children, we all have quite low standards of being like, yeah, just get the potty out. 

Even this morning he did one, and I was like, Kaz, can I just look at it before you flush it down the toilet? He was like, what is wrong with you? You do! And I remember like, we used to message her like, Dunno, are we on the potty? Like, and I'd be like, what romance messages we have? Like, she's done this on the toilet now.

You have sent me a picture. I've sent a picture! And I was like, great, now I've got this on my phone. I was really impressed, I was like, look what she did! Here's a picture. I know, if you look back and you're like, what's that picture thing? You're just like, oh gosh, what is our relationship?  Well, thank you so much for coming on.

It's been good to connect and do some stuff together. We like having a chat anyway, don't we? 

There we go. Thanks so much to Katie for suggesting this joint episode, which has been great. Did you enjoy the conversation, Emma? I did. I find it funny when you call her Katie, because I'm so used to listening to her podcast in my head. She's just like Mamalogue, that's who she is. That's her name.  We'd highly recommend going and checking out Mamalogue, so go and find that on Spotify and enjoy the episodes there that she's doing.

Thank you for joining us today, uh, out in the Imaginary Park set, uh, on the, on the picnic blanket, chatting with your pregnancy pals. Yeah, I'm probably complaining about back pain now and with pregnancy. Yeah, but at least I was gonna say pregnancy picnic.  Oh, is it a pregnancy picnic?  Oh, how lovely.  I don't know what I'm imagining.

That's it. You can be gone now. Um, we'll see you next episode. No, um, something, you know. You'll hear us next episode. Yeah. We'll be back with a topic that we're going to chat about. We'll be back with a topic we'll chat about. Yeah, that's how this works. Um, but in the meantime, um, get in touch. Come, come speak to us.

We'd love to interact with all of you out there.  Uh, and uh, goodbye. Don't wake the baby. Sleep well. God bless.